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21 Dec 05 - 07:38 AM (#1632030) Subject: The role of parodies in folk From: George Papavgeris Good parody writing is hard, in some ways harder than normal songwriting, I think. The emphasis is on the "good", of course; for each great parody I have heard ("I was about to fall apart" to the tune of "I am Napoleon Bonapart" is one that always cracks my lips), I must have heard dozens of gratuitous drivel with far too many verses, paying no heed to the original song's structure and rhythm; little more than bad jokes told poorly. Yet so often you find in singarounds that people will sing parodies rather then originals, sometimes with a ratio of 2-to-3 or worse, latching on to the "funny" and skipping the song that inspired it in the first place. Also, I wonder if the over-use of parodies, assuming and depending on knowledge of the original as it does, might put off new entrants to the world of folk, because they are little more than an "in" joke that could create an air of exclusion. Your thoughts? |
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21 Dec 05 - 07:54 AM (#1632039) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Peterr I couldn't disagree less. I find Sid Kipper very funny, but a folk newcomer would find him entertaining but not able to understand why those who have been around the genre a while find him hilarious. Parodies are great, but to be good they should be recognisably relevant to the original subject and strictly rationed. An original funny song is a different animal. |
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21 Dec 05 - 08:47 AM (#1632071) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Rapparee Parodies also can "use up" some of the stereotypes in folk music and deflect criticism. For example, my brother will sing "The moon it shown down on old Dublin Town When the deadly fight was o'er Thousand lay on the cold, cold ground They're lives would flame no more. The moon it shown down on O'Connell Street Where a dying young rebel lay, With his...body...gashed and his...arms... SOB SOB SOB (Spoken)Sorry, I just can't go on. It's too much. Thereby parodying the idea of the overly sentimental Irish song. Or his "...by the risin' of the moon (YEEHAA!) by the risin' of the moon, For the pikes must be together By the risin' of the moon YEEHAA!" |
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21 Dec 05 - 08:47 AM (#1632073) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Mo the caller Then there are the songs that use other songs as a starting point, maybe the same tune similar words but a comment on something topical. All part of the "folk process". But songs that have been Kippered are never the same again. I'm still trying to work out Peterr's 1st sentence! |
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21 Dec 05 - 10:26 AM (#1632141) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: George Papavgeris Disagree less = agree more |
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21 Dec 05 - 10:30 AM (#1632144) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Peterr, Don't you think that finding Sid entertaining, but not understanding why others find him hilarious, might lead that listener to find the original song, and maybe enjoy it enough to want to sing it? Don T. |
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21 Dec 05 - 10:43 AM (#1632156) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: John MacKenzie Well in the case of Oh No not the Bloody Fields of Athenry, and the parody[ies] of Waltzing Matilda, they are just a way of saying "we've heard enough of the original song thanks". The Wild Rover was an early victim of this with just a few silly word changes like 'pulled out something white' instead of 'pulled out sovereigns bright' etc As you say George a well written parody is a thing of beauty whereas some of the crap that gets trotted out in an effort to amuse the cognoscenti should be classified as a capital offence. I do agree though that if you don't know the original most parodies are lost on you. I remember someone getting upset at Sidmouth, and on that occasion rightly so, when some members of the audience insisted on singing the silly words to the chorus of the song she was singing, while she sang the correct version. So it is an all or nothing activity I think. Giok |
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21 Dec 05 - 01:43 PM (#1632285) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Leadfingers As a VERY serious lover of parodies , I have to totally agree with George that there are a lot of BAD parodies , but a good one takes a lot of beating ! Dave Houlden (Who wrote 'I am about to fall apart) was responsible for a lot of beauties , and of course Sid Kipper ia as well . In my book a 'proper' parody has to closely follow the original in phrasielogy and construction , NOT Just borrow the tune ! I have a set of lyrics to 'The Good Old Way' that is BRILLIANT , but I DARENT sing it round here because of the popularity of the original - I would probably be lynched !! |
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21 Dec 05 - 03:18 PM (#1632365) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: mg I tend to not like them but once in a while I do...but they do tend to wreck a song circle if you ask me...once they start they don't stop...one person had a great idea..it was verboten to sing a parody of a song after the original had been sung, tempting though it may be. well, people like them...in somehting like a music camp it is a good idea to have parody workshops and that seems to give them an outlet... mg |
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21 Dec 05 - 06:01 PM (#1632467) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Little Robyn I love the Kippers but once you've adopted Dido Fido or Wild mounting time, it's very hard to listen to (or sing) the originals. The poacher's days of Christmas is great for this time of year. On the 13th day of Christmas my dog and I got caught with.... Robyn |
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21 Dec 05 - 06:02 PM (#1632468) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: breezy before performing a parody the performer has to be sure that his audience is highly familiar with the original. Though many find Les Barker hugely amusing he can leave many of his audiences lost, especially as he recites his works. I've been better entertianed when his works are sung as with the M A Band An example of a good job is the parody of Stan Rogers' 'Barratt's Privateers' which became ' Garnet's Home-made Beer' Parodies are to be use sparsely I M H O happy Christmas miss the po and whine |
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21 Dec 05 - 07:47 PM (#1632520) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Dead Horse When I am tempted to write a parody, I have to have heard the original so many times that it seems "done to death" as it were. I also have to enjoy hearing the original well sung. I have been asked to sing MY version immediately after someone has just done the original, and I agree that it seems to be very bad manners to do so. I only sing parodies when the audience is well known to me, and very rarely when we are supposed to be entertaining "the masses" as it is definately an in joke that I am pulling. Some of the Kipper versions take liberties with the metre and construction of the originals. This I do not like. It jars. Most, however, are very well done. Les Barker plays to folk clubs, and therefore his audience is likely to appreciate what he has done. In my everso humble opinion, Mr B is the most brilliant wordsmith alive today. So there! |
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22 Dec 05 - 06:40 AM (#1632773) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Liath Agree about Wild Mounting Time... I really have to concentrate now when singing the original ;-) We discovered recently that folks didn't have a clue about the original songs that we were parodying (sp?), so we organised a workshop for teaching people some of the good old favourites. That went down really well. |
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22 Dec 05 - 06:51 AM (#1632777) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: George Papavgeris Great idea, Liath! It could be emulated in clubs as a theme night - "Tried and trusted" or "Well worn" or something like that. |
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22 Dec 05 - 08:13 AM (#1632814) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Leadfingers As a matter of interest , when Dido Fido first hit the scene a number of my folkie friends were muttering that it would kill the original ! In fact , Dido Bendigo still gets sung locally but I havent heard Dido Fido for years . |
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22 Dec 05 - 10:12 AM (#1632894) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Donuel I agree (more or less) that parodies can get you in a lot of trouble. So I write a couple every month. Will anybody ever sing them or even see them? Probably not but it doesn't deter me in the least ;) Several years back the question regarding the right to perform a parody made it to court. Parodies won. |
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22 Dec 05 - 10:36 AM (#1632915) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: MoorleyMan This thread has thrown up some interesting and well-informed debate on an unjustly maligned branch of folk culture. My own view tends to coincide very much with El Greko's, and like Leadfingers I am a bit of a connoisseur of parodies! Over and above everything else I do feel strongly that a parody should respect (not just mirror) the original if it is to achieve any modicum of integrity (and literacy, by the way). In the end, whether it is "funny" or not will depend partly on one's knowledge of the original, certainly, but also - as with all humour or intended humour - it'll be a matter of personal taste. And not all parodies are actually intended to be funny - so obvious "laughs" shouldn't be forced into the material. I firmly believe that good parody (as opposed to pastiche on one hand and cheap satire on the other) is (or can be) an art-form in itself. The main strand of parody writing already identified here on the thread - ie the knowing and generally astute paraphrase with relevant content that genuinely has something to say - may well include something from the "not the fields of Athenry" sub-set, and either observation, if well made, can succeed, and often on more than one level. Mostly though, the "topical rewrite" sub-genre is really less parody than cheap gibe, and many of these are blunt-egded or insubstantial and too transient in nature to be of much interest to anyone other than the folk historian in the long-term, and the political activist or the school playground (to which level they evidently aspire!)in the short-term. Merely borrowing a tune and then fitting one's own views or statements doth not necessarily constitute parody, although there are examples which do so quite blatantly yet with due respect and knowledge (and sometimes also love) of the original, and thus encompass the best of both worlds. As for the performance issue, well - first, the effective performance of parodies can be very much an art in itself too, and in a few instances the parodists themselves aren't necessarily the best performers of their own work (eg Les Barker singing? no way....) although in other instances they can provide insights that others will miss. Second, it's never easy to pick the right moment to sing a parody in a singaround. Only very rarely will it feel(or be) right to perform a parody after the original, and even then the singer must know his/her audience well for it to work as anything other than a lapse of taste. But I still maintain that a good parody at the right moment and/or with the right audience (not necessarily an in-crowd) is worth a dozen hand-picked and superbly sung serious ballads. Or can be. Oh well, that's my two-pennorth for now. MM (Oh Leadfingers - you've got me hooked now, I must hear your Good Old Way!!! - can you PM me the words??) |
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22 Dec 05 - 11:37 AM (#1632957) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Leadfingers MM - the Good Old Way parody I have is NOT mine , but was penned by Les Izzard , one of the regular performers at Sharps . I will check with hime wether he objects to further dissemination of his Opus . |
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22 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM (#1632968) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Rapparee It seems to me that the idea of parody is part of the human psyche. Whenever something gets too familiar or plays too long on our emotions humans tend to parody it. The "Lord Of Misrule" comes to mind, as does the role of the Fool in medieval courts. JibJab pokes fun at Bush, "Macbird" satirized LBJ and you can find many other examples, both current and historical. To cite but one set of examples, both the Union and the Confederacy parodied each other's songs during the American Civil War. And I've seen some parodies of "The Ballad of the Green Berets" that...heck, some of them are in the DT. |
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22 Dec 05 - 01:35 PM (#1633082) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: MoorleyMan Sorry Leadfingers, I wouldn't have asked had I realised it wasn't yours! Happy to observe etiquette of course. |
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22 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM (#1633387) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Nigel Parsons mg: I'm a little confused by the idea that in a circle one person had a great idea..it was verboten to sing a parody of a song after the original had been sung, tempting though it may be. If you have a parody prepared then this is the ideal time to unleash it. A parody will only be understood by those who are Au fait with the original. So if you have a parody you wish to air (possibly for the first time) then it helps if someone in the circle has already performed the original. This means that the rest of the circle are aware of the song being parodied. I speak as one who (in a 'filk' [sci fi music] circle) has heard a song (for the first time), and admitted to preferring the original, only to discover that I've just heard the original, and the song I was already comfortable with was, in fact, the parody! Parodies (done well) are an art form in themselves, and will only work if the original is sufficiently well known that people appreciate the parody. To write a parody, requires a good knowledge of the original, and so it can be taken as a compliment to the original. See Yob In Hood or the Who Writes Parodies thread CHEERS Nigel |
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22 Dec 05 - 07:47 PM (#1633389) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Leadfingers Dave Houlden (of Blessed Memory) was often known to hear a song in the first half of the evening , then sing a Parody he had just concocted after the interval !! |
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22 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM (#1633392) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Bev and Jerry Well, Nigel, once when we were in a song circle someone who was new to the group sang a song that was very well known within that group. As soon as he was done, someone else sang a parody of his song that was also very well known within the group. The man got up and walked out without saying a word and was never seen again. The rest of us thought like you but, apparently, this fellow didn't. Bev and Jerry |
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23 Dec 05 - 02:40 AM (#1633566) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Hrothgar " ... the over-use of parodies, assuming and depending on knowledge of the original as it does, might put off new entrants to the world of folk, because they are little more than an "in" joke that could create an air of exclusion." I'm with you on that, George. I wouldn't be without them, though. It just takes care in timing their use. Possibly the best time for a parody in a group with a number of new people is immediately after the original - and it's just too bad if the singer of the original gets upset. Another thing I have noticed with parodies - no matter how worn out the original, the parody tends to wear out even more quickly with over-use. |
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23 Dec 05 - 03:23 AM (#1633580) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: John MacKenzie Parodies should be affectionate tributes to the original, and should in its' own way add to the original. If they mock and/or denigrate the original they are not parodies but an ego trip for the writer, and by association the subsequent singer/s. If someone walks out when a parody of something he has just performed is sung, then either the person singing the parody did not introduce his song properly, or the parody in question is a poor one. There are many parodies, but there are only a few good parodies. Another school of thought proposes, that only people who can't think up something original of their own, write parodies of the works of others. Giok. |
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23 Dec 05 - 05:30 AM (#1633637) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: George Papavgeris 200% with you, Giok, especially the first paragraph - it's a gem. But I would never walk out if someone sang a parody of song I just did - even if the parody was bad, even if the song was mine. That's being a bit "precious" by my reckoning. As for the last category you mention - I know someone like that, though I believe in his case there are feelings of inadequacy involved too (he doesn't believe he can produce a good original, but I think he underrates himself). And there is the need to make others laugh, as a defense mechanism - a little like the jokesters at school. It's true, he doesn't have a great voice, and I suspect he resorts to humour because of that. Shame, because I think he is a perceptive person, and with a little effort he could surprise himself and others. |
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23 Dec 05 - 05:31 AM (#1633638) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Don(Wyziwyg)T "Another school of thought proposes, that only people who can't think up something original of their own, write parodies of the works of others." Two word answer "Les Barker" Don T. |
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23 Dec 05 - 05:45 AM (#1633644) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: freda underhill John Dengate is an Australian singer and songwriter who writes some wicked parodies. "I'm a Rambo" (to the tune of "I'm a Rambler" and "I can't abide" to the tune of "Abide with me" come to mind.. He definitely makes classics out of his new versions, they are very funny and very political. freda |
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23 Dec 05 - 06:54 AM (#1633687) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Gervase The problem is one of definition, I fear. A parody is today understood to be something that imitates an original to poke fun at it. However the Kippers, Les Barker and Dave Houlden in his heyday et al are probably better described as masters of pastiche, in that their material is respectful of its influence. Even in their case, though, a little goes a long way. The thought of an entire evening of parodies would be enought to make me shudder. George and Giok are perceptitive, I think, in attributing the rash of parodies to the inability of many people to write original material. A parody is easier because the framework is already there; adapting words you already know to fit an equally well-known tune is always going to be easier than doing the full-on songwriting malarky. And, as such, it takes real self-confidence to be able to sing a song that one really has crafted from one's own imagination (and hats off to George for doing that so beautifully). I similarly know of one songwriter who started by writing parodies - some of them excruciating - but who has now left the nursery slopes behind and has written a number of songs that deserve to make it into the popular folk repertoire. Perhaps it's all part of a process of growing, and in that sense parodies truly are immature! |
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23 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM (#1633802) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: JohnB Ther are TOO many BAD parodies around = there are TOO many BAD singer songer writers around. This is not a coincidence, it's not rocket science either. I would not lose a single tear if I never heard a parody again. Several singer songwriters too if it comes to that. I'm also with the "DO NOT SING the PARODY AFTER THE ORIGINAL" crowd. Someone did it to me once and recieved not one clap of applause from a room of about 40 people. JohnB |
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23 Dec 05 - 11:18 AM (#1633835) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: EBarnacle At a recent chantey sing in NYC, I sang the Hagar Man because Ken Schatz was present. He lost it. When someone retires, Jan and I generally do: "When I retire in due time, Way down to Florida, My Miami condo will be divine, And we'll roll the U-Haul down...." We always throw a cheezy Yiddish accent and crack up the crowd. On the other hand, using a melody instead of writing your own can be a sign of laziness. Gordon Bok and I went round and round about this for a while. An example that I frequently cite is that Pete Seeger's "How do I know my youth is all spent..." is very similar to "Officer Krumpke" from West Side Story. When I asked Pete about this, his comment was they were probably both descended from "Fair Harvard." In other words, everyone does it, whether or not they are conscious of it. |
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23 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM (#1633857) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: ard mhacha The best parodies on this Site by a country mile were written by Derrymacash [Aidan Crossey], have a look back through the Drumcree Thread and you will see numerous parodies by the `cash man. |
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26 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM (#1635055) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Girl Friday ToneDeaf Leopard... {the name is itself a parody}, write a lot of parodies. Mostly of non-traditional songs. We have, however, turned The Wild Rover into The Wild Rabbit. We have found on the whole, that the audience recognises the song because we leave ina few original phrases. E.G. "And it's no hay never No hay never no more Will I munch the wild clover No never, no more" |
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26 Dec 05 - 03:11 PM (#1635073) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: John MacKenzie There's all the difference in the world between a parody and a pun! G. |
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26 Dec 05 - 03:20 PM (#1635078) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: jacqui.c I don't write parodies but do like to perform them. However, it has to be a parody of a song that I like and that appeals to my sense of humour. I do agree that a whole evening of parodies could be a bit much and try to stick to one parody in an evening. |
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26 Dec 05 - 07:01 PM (#1635153) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Moderation in all things seems right to me. I both write my own, and sing other people's, but only one or two in a gig. I'm sure Giok has heard some of mine at the Newt, in Sidmouth. My partner in "Sic Transit", Clive Lever (Catter wildrover) also writes some bitingly witty parodies. The thing is they are only a part of what we believe to be a creative, and original repertoire. Don T. |
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26 Dec 05 - 07:45 PM (#1635167) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Girl Friday Well spotted. It was a pun-- just thought it would be amusing---sorry. |
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27 Dec 05 - 04:48 PM (#1635594) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: GUEST,vectis I too would love to get the words to 'the good old way' parody Terry. Pretty please wiv knobs on? Mary |
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28 Dec 05 - 01:04 PM (#1636101) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Mo the caller well, that wild rabbit left me wanting more |
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29 Dec 05 - 05:32 AM (#1636565) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Dave Masterson In days of yore when I was with Hartley Morris, they did a totally disgusting parody of 'Pleasant and delightful'. Not so much a parody as a total devastation. I won't even begin to repeat it here. I dare say they weren't the only morris side to sing it either. I love to sing the song, but every time I do I scan the room to ensure there are no off-duty morris men present! Even then I preface the song with the disclaimer that I am singing the CLEAN version, thank you very much. To make matters worse, as I sing it I can hear the wretched dirty version in my head!!! I'm sure one day it will slip out by mistake. Am I becoming paranoid? As a result, I have started SROPAD – the Society for the Reclamation of Pleasant And Delightful. Membership is a trifling £100 per annum, cheques to me please. |
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29 Dec 05 - 05:45 AM (#1636568) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: GUEST P revent yet A nother R otten O ld tatty, usually D isgustingly predictable I nevitably boring and E xecrable parody of a good S ong. |
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01 Jan 06 - 03:04 PM (#1638922) Subject: RE: The role of parodies in folk From: Girl Friday Thankyou Mo the Caller. If you p. m. me with your e-mail address I will willingly supply the words for Wild Rabbit. |