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15 Jan 06 - 08:52 PM (#1649190) Subject: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: GUEST A friend of mine hosts house concerts. Someone called regarding the next concert and got all bent out of shape because my friend doesn't have a handicapped accessible bathroom. This person plans to get my friend into trouble for hosting a public event but not having toilet facilities that a wheelchair can get into. The person didn't seem to care that it is my friend's house, not a place of business, and that all of the money from the concert goes to the artist so this concert is not a money making opportunity. Has anyone here who hosts house concerts ever run into a problem such as this? How did you handle it. Thanks for any help that you can provide. |
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16 Jan 06 - 09:24 AM (#1649501) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: GUEST |
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16 Jan 06 - 10:57 AM (#1649548) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: wysiwyg Chairbound folks mounted a good lobbying effort, to get things more accessible, and good for them! But now people make the mistake of thinking that access is required in all cases in all facilities. The wheelchair symbol actually means, to facility-operators, "We found it financially wise to get ready for the population bulge of elders coming our way shortly from the baby boom," and not much else. In fact, the symbol MAY mean, "good luck if you use a walker, because WE geared up for motored wheelchairs and YOU will find that you have a LONG, circuitous walk ahead of you through the dirtiest part of our building." It's great if you CAN use accessible locations, but there are lots of public events that are not held at "accessible" locations. The promoter's job is to mark publicity materials clearly as to what accessibility there is. In the case of a location that is not "accessible" at all, you don't have to say that in so many words-- simply indicate, "persons needing access assistance are requested to call ahead" or some such-- and you can arrange people to help boost a chair up the odd step or two, or discuss with an indivdual caller whether the loo can be accessed with help, or so forth. The person wanting to attend can then decide if your location will work for their particular need. "Accessibility" also is a confused term for the non-disabled as well. When I use a scooter at WalMart people scurry and duck, embarrassed, if they think they MAY block my way when I use the store's scooter. Have I suddenly become an object of pity, or have I achieved some elevated status? They aren't so gracious about yielding when I'm on foot, and I don't expect them to-- if someone is looking at an item on the shelf, I expect to wait to my turn to get through! Another odd aspect of "accessibility" PCness-- I was rehabbing an injury, so I went to use the handi ramp into a pool. A little boy swimming nearby chastised me-- "Don't you see the sign? Wheelchairs only!" I educated him that there are MANY forms of disability, not limited to being chairbound. The ubiquitous chair symbol just means that particular part of their facility is wide enough and sloped right for any mobility impairment up to and including chairs-- walker, crutches, cane, etc. Smae thing on public restrooms-- it means the door meets a width requirement for chair clearance, and there may or may not be a handrail, but the purse hook will still be mounted WAY up high where you could not reach from a chair, and the door will still be as hard to lock/unlock as ever-- so if you have arthritis, or stroke dmage affecting a hand, forget a painless attempt! It also doesn't mean that a colostomy patient-- who is somwwhat disabled in loo use-- will find a sink, etc., to manage for themselves. (Think about THAT next time you glare at someone heading for one of the handi-marked stalls, who doesn't LOOK "disabled' enough to "qualify.") ~Susan |
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16 Jan 06 - 11:31 AM (#1649551) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Jeri I'm assuming you're in the US because I am. If you're not, please let us know. If I'm not, and I'm having a good time, tell me after the party. I suspect you might need to talk to a lawyer if there's no one in your local area with experience. I think it's likely a local zoning issue. Most workplaces have to be accessible, but not even all of them, and physical abilities may be required for a job. People have the right to work, but entertainment's different. While I'm pretty sure there's no federal law requiring wheelchair access to movie theaters, bars, restaurants, or music halls, I can't say about local laws. I'm pretty sure people's houses aren't ever considered public venues, and money-making doesn't matter. If you were having a party to sell plastic food containers or lingerie, it wouldn't matter. It's a private residence, no matter what goes on in it The bigger issue is that maybe this person has just been locked out of one too many places and decided to get militant about it. This certainly isn't going to help them get invited to a lot of other things. Consider how disappointed and frustrated you'd feel. Maybe talking to the person to try to work something out would be better than fighting about it. Even if there's no solution, the attempt to find one would be better than virtually slamming a door on one soul who wants to be at the concert and wants others to care that they can't. In the end, if nothing gets better and the disgruntled person remains disgruntled and spiteful and decides if they can't get there, they're going to ruin it for everyone else: houses are private property, mailing lists can be private, the events can be private, and bye-bye problem. I'd give the rational way a try first. |
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16 Jan 06 - 11:42 AM (#1649557) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: GUEST Hmm... my advice would be to make it clear, in advance, in written form, that any person is welcome to attend but also make it clear that toilet and other specialist facilities for the disabled are not available. Put up a written notice to that effect. You will disapoint some people, you can't avoid that. It may be - and I'm being quite serious here - that future events could take place in the home of a disabled person who has the facilities. You may also need to consider your position as regards personal liability (someone cuts themself on one of your glasses, electrocutes themselves on your PA, fires, God forbid, and stuff like that.) If the authorities turn up to shut you down, just deal with it on the spot the best way you can. Nothing ventured nothing gained but it is worth remembering that health & safety regulations are there for very good reasons to protct us all. Good Luck. |
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16 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM (#1649564) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Dave Earl I have a problem with the Terms "Handicapped" and "Disabled". Yes there are people "challenged" in many ways and It is my view that everything possible should be done to grant them access to wherever they want to be. It is just the Labels that are applied. Disabled/Handicapped loos and the like. I would rather society used a term like "Equal Access". This is not meant to be a PC type observtion as I have a physical limitation myself and find the use of the above terms a little hurtful. Dave |
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16 Jan 06 - 01:04 PM (#1649616) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: GUEST The person who is complaining uses a wheeelchair. This person found out about the concert because the performer sent out an e-mail to everyone on the performer's list. The concert is also being announced on the radio by the local folk stations (without help like this it is hard to fill the house). My friend tried to explain the situation to the person when she called to ask about the facilities. The situation was explained quite calmly and my friend even said that there are restaurants only a few blocks away that the person could use. That appeared to be a non-satifactory solution. It would be a shame to have to stop a program of about 8 yearly concerts because one person is bent out of shape. While that person definately shouldn't be locked out of anything she should realize that someone can't redesign their house simply because they are hosting a few non-moneymaking concerts to the public. |
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16 Jan 06 - 01:14 PM (#1649623) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: jeffp The law only requires "reasonable" accommodations in public places of a certain size. I'm sure a private home would not be required to make architectural changes to accommodate a person in a wheelchair who happens to want to attend a house concert. |
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16 Jan 06 - 04:37 PM (#1649717) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Don Firth Well explained, Susan. As I have mentioned in other threads, I use a wheelchair. Despite the American's with Disabilities Act, I find that there are places that I simply cannot go. These are usually private homes. Often it's flights of stairs up to the door or front porch. Frequently people invite me anyway and offer to lift me up the stairs, assuring me that they can do it, but generally I demur. I judge a situation where there are more than a couple of steps just too risky. So, I see them at other places. Bob Nelson (Deckman) has two steps up to his front porch. I couldn't make it on my own, but he lifts me and the wheelchair up and in (tips the chair with me in it back like a hand-truck and hauls me up a step at a time). At another house with a similar situation, the hostess's husky son usually does the deed. Also, not all that many of my friends have bathrooms that are wheelchair friendly. In these cases, I prepare for the visit. Fortunately I have good bladder control, and on the day I will be visiting them, I drink fluids very sparingly, and by watching my fluid intake, I'm often good for six, seven hours or more. I read someplace that this is what members of the British Royal Family do when they'll have to be out all day reviewing parades and such. If the person with the disability uses his/her head, they can often figure ways around problems and obstacles. It's my understanding that the ADA applies to public buildings and businesses, and that, as jeffp says, stipulates "reasonable" accommodations. Although, in a perfect world, it would be nice if every bathroom, public and private, were set up so they could be used by people with disabilities, this in itself could be a bit of a problem, considering the wide range of possible disabilities and the various unique needs they present. For example, the bathroom in my apartment is fairly small, but I had it set up so it's easy for me to use. I know other people in wheelchairs who would find it difficult or impossible to use. GUEST, I don't know what sort of legal arrangements you have for your house concerts, but I would assume that since you are putting them on in your own private residence, the laws that apply to public buildings would not apply to you. I don't know if this would help in case things get tight and you get a lot of static about operating a "public business" and not having an accessible bathroom, but I used to frequent a restaurant that was a gathering spot for various musicians, folk and jazz. Often there would be a jam session or a hootenanny on a Friday or Saturday night, and a few times, concerts. The restaurant owners didn't have the cabaret license required by the city to have entertainment in their establishment, so they simply placed the "CLOSED" sign in the window and left the door unlocked. They declared it a private party (with open an invitation). They didn't charge admission or cover, but there was a basket with a small sign suggesting that a contribution of a specific amount would be nice (I don't remember anyone not kicking in). Thus, the laws that applied to cabarets did not apply to them. They did this over a period of four or five years with no problems. As much as I (obviously!) sympathize with this person's desire to take in your house concerts, it strikes me that they are not being entirely reasonable. I expect public buildings—which are designed to be public buildings—to be pretty accessible. But I am fully aware that there are events, often held in private homes, that I simply have to skip. There are places that I cannot go (would you believe Mt. Everest!??), so I just have to suck it up. It ain't a poifeck woild. Don Firth P. S. Because of polio at the age of two, I've used crutches all my life, until I had to take to a wheelchair about fifteen years ago. I am not at all bothered by terms such as "handicapped" (which has an interesting history, not at all implying any disparagement) and "disabled." I find terms like "differently abled" clumsy, and for that matter, a bit patronizing. I wasa bit irked (but not "hurt") by a guy who used to refer to me as "gimpy," but then, it was common knowledge that he was a nitwit. |
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16 Jan 06 - 05:08 PM (#1649734) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Charlie Baum Local folk music societies in our area were pestered by a wheelchair activist a couple of years ago, so our society had a chance to check out the requirements and expectations of accessibliity with our state disability council. First of all, only a "reasonable" accommodation is required. The folks who go after enforcement of this issue would never bother going after a private house or a house concert series. Moreover, about the only enforcement mechanism available is to deny government funding. If your house concert series exists independently of public arts grants, you can safely ignore the complaints about the lack of full accessibility. There are no other legal remedies the person can pursue. The accommodations that suit some people won't suit others. Lisa and I have adapted our home to the disabliities of those who live here and our frequent visitors (including Lisa's son, who is in a wheelchair)--and we made our bathroom and house work for OUR needs, rather than the arbitrary ADA compliance rules, which don't work for us. In Maryland, Marilyn Phillips proved to be such a belligerent and nasty Wheelchair Nazi that some of us were tempted to push her wheelchair off the top of a long steep stairway. Thanks to an interest in preserving public decorum and politcal correctness, we refrained from doing so. ;-) |
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16 Jan 06 - 07:30 PM (#1649835) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Don Firth GUEST, the question might be, what exactly does this person need in the way of a wheelchair accessible bathroom? If it's just entrance to the bathroom itself, the width of a standard wheelchair is about 24", so a 36" doorway should be adequate. Actually, I've slithered through 28" doorways, watching carefully to make sure I didn't bark my knuckles or bash an elbow. But turning 90o from a narrow hallway into a narrow door isn't going to work. Has something to do with turning radii and hypotenuses and such. My own bathroom is quite small, so to use the toilet, I have to back in, lock my wheelchair wheels, then turn myself 90o as I lift myself to the toilet (equipped with one of those raised plastic seats to match the height of the wheelchair). The washbowl is right next to the toilet. If I'm going to use the shower or tub, I have to come in forward, then lift myself onto a bath stool, also turning 90o as I do so. The bathroom is small enough so that I can't pull in parallel to either the toilet or the tub. As it was, when we moved in, we had to replace the fixtures that were there just on general principles. But as far as size and general layout was concerned, there was little choice, other than an expensive rebuilding of the whole thing, including knocking out a wall, which was not a choice! So I had a few modifications made, such as having grab-bars installed at strategic locations. Other than that, I made do with what was available. If the woman was willing to, maybe she could come over and look at your bathroom (dry run, so to speak) and see if it would work for her. Then, if she wanted to attend concerts at your place regularly, and if you were willing and it didn't cost a fortune, you could possibly check into something like installing a secure grab-bar or two (able bodied people find them handy too—but caution: towel rods do not make good grab bars; much too fragile and pull out of the wall too easily) and perhaps get a raised seat. Guardian and Rubbermaid make them—the ones with the locking mechanism are safest—and they only take a minute or two to install and remove. If nothing else, this would convince her that you're trying, and at least willing to work with her. She could hardly complain about that. Just a suggestion, for what it's worth. Don Firth |
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17 Jan 06 - 12:25 AM (#1650003) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: GUEST,Don Meixner I am a designer of equipment for people with special needs. I design everything from ramps to houses. I also assess for compliance with the ADA= Americans with Disabilities Act. This case is a unique problem in a few ways. The person who is having the house concert in most cases wouldn't be required to have a accessible bathroom in a private residence. However the moment it was advertised on the radio and through the performers website the house became space for hire and opened to the general public. As it is now a public meeting space open to anyone with the admission charge it became subject to the rules of the ADA. You can claim that to meet the accessibilty requirement is an undue financial burden and back that statement if you need to. After all most homes aren't accessible unless there is a familial need. Did this person ask about a ramped entry and closed circuit FM radio reception or signing for people with low hearing? Don |
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17 Jan 06 - 12:46 AM (#1650007) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Seamus Kennedy Could the performer in this case contact the complainant and explain the situation? I'll bet the organizers will bend over backwards to try and facilitate entry, etc. If the person still wants to make a fuss, he or she should be dropped from the performer's mailing-list. Seamus |
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17 Jan 06 - 01:24 AM (#1650016) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Bev and Jerry In our area there was a man who used a wheel chair and a lawyer to sue dozens of restaurants and shops. The amount he sued for was too small for the owners to hire their own lawyers so most settled. Some simply went out of business. A few fought him and all of them won. Finally, the judge told him to stop. In this case, he claimed to be doing it in order to force more places to conform to the law but his methods were quite nasty. In many cases he merely drove by the site, noted in his diary that it did not conform, and later was able to sue for a daily amount multiplied by the number of days since he made the diary entry. Apparently he was stopped just in time as we overheard more than one conversation in which it was mentioned that he might be found one day washed up on the beach. Bev and Jerry |
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17 Jan 06 - 09:16 AM (#1650151) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Jeri I'm with Charlie and Don F on this one. Sorry Don M, but I don't think you're right about a private residence being subject to the ADA From the 'FindLaw' site (Americans With Disabilities Act: Questions and Answers by the U.S. Department of Justice)
"Q. Does the ADA cover private apartments and private homes?
This is talking about places of business which are permanently located in private residences and presumably have employees which should be protected as well as patrons. It's not referring to once-a-month or other occasional events held in a home. It's not talking about house concerts or Tupperware parties or reunions or anything else, regardless of how and to whom these events are advertised. |
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17 Jan 06 - 11:32 PM (#1650655) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: GUEST,DonMeixner Jeri, I think your Q & A supports my very point. The second you advertise a service and an admission price open to the public at large you are a public venue even tho' you haven't a performance license. The secret is not to advertise but limit to a closed population such as a private club. The residential status changes when it becomes a room for public hire. This is one of those situations you can't win no matter what you do. The population we have with disabilities needs reasonable accommodations and a fair shake. And it sucks when one(underline ONE) of the persons who is in need of your best intentions is doing their damnest to subvert your every move. Don |
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18 Jan 06 - 02:33 AM (#1650693) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Jeremiah McCaw " . . . she should realize that someone can't redesign their house simply because they are hosting a few non-moneymaking concerts to the public." In the interests of fair treatment, we should keep in mind that just because someone is disabled doesn't mean that he/she isn't a major jerk! :-) |
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18 Jan 06 - 10:01 AM (#1650863) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: DonMeixner "In the interests of fair treatment, we should keep in mind that just because someone is disabled doesn't mean that he/she isn't a major jerk! :-)" And it also must be held true that in this new world of full access and total inclusion that people with disabilities have as much a right to be jerk as the rest of us. In your face advocacy has it's place and is a powerful tool. But don't you think it has more service at the newly openned and inaccessible local opera house? If you alienate the neighbors over the insides of their private homes you will have no allies in the battle over public spaces. Don |
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18 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM (#1650980) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: GUEST,Jeri Don, I don't think around 8 house concerts lasting possibly 3 hours is quite the same thing as a doctor's office or day care, which are open on a regular basis, and have paid employees. The above are businesses. Hosting the odd house concert for no pay is not operating a business. Here's another quote: Q. What are public accommodations? A. A public accommodation is a private entity that owns, operates, leases, or leases to, a place of public accommodation. Places of public accommodation include a wide range of entities, such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, doctors' offices, pharmacies, retail stores, museums, libraries, parks, private schools, and day care centers. Private clubs and religious organizations are exempt from the ADA's title III requirements for public accommodations. I can argue that an occasional house concert which is open to the public, for no monetaty gain of the host, does not make a private home a 'public accommodation'. I can argue that even the most craven lawyer wouldn't take such a case. What I think makes the most sense is for GUEST or GUEST's friend who hosts the concerts to call the experts and ask them. I don't think ANYBODY will say that's not the best idea. By the way, the house concerts I go to here ask for a 'suggested donation', and as far as I know, the host never touches the money. |
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18 Jan 06 - 01:27 PM (#1651006) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: DonMeixner Jeri, You are right in everything say. Religious groups and PRIVATE Clubs are exempt. But the word is PRIVATE Club which in the eyes of the law: a law which differes from state to state, implies invitation only. The second you ADVERTISE to the public at large and offer to charge a fee for service either by implication or actual dollar figure you become a public venue for time you are offering the service. This is well supported in law by the fact that churches which allow public use of their buildings for non church related functions are required to adhere to the ADA in the places where these functions are held. ie: 12 Step programs, Scouting, Thrift Stores,Music Concerts, Civic Theater..... And as for asking the "Experts" I'm one of them what is asked in Syracuse and surrounding environs. Don |
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18 Jan 06 - 02:41 PM (#1651060) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Charlie Baum Don-- Our folk society had a chance to meet with a representative from the Maryland Commission on Human Rights, which has enforcement responsibilities in Maryland. It was reassuring to find out the details from the experts, and to realize that in our state at least, enforcement isn't likely to be so hard-assed as to prevent house concerts and other home gatherings of the society. They're simply not going to waste their time and energy worrying about every little gathering in somebody's living room, alienating the populace in the process. And you can let friends you haven't met yet know about the events. You can always use a formulation like: "Hosts A and B invite members of the society and their guests to their home to hear Performer C. Suggested minimum donation $N." There's at least one other folk presenter in the community that decided not to actively publicize house concerts of others for fear of losing its government arts grants, but deprival of those grants is really the only realtively easy-to-invoke mechanism available to enforce accessibility. --Charlie Baum |
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18 Jan 06 - 03:44 PM (#1651109) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: DonMeixner Hi Charlie, The ADA is administered through the Federal Government and really has no direct local enforcement is NYS. I remember clearly those early meetings where it was originally determined that equal access was a civil rights issue and should be enforced through the department of jusitice. Of course everything was changed and tweeked over time. In reality nobody drives around looking for violations of the ADA unless they show up glaringly or are found as part of a build codes inspection. The public has to make a complaint to the feds before action will take place. Like Tom Selleck said on the tube the other night in a TV show. I'm not in the right or wrong business, I'm in the legal and illegal business. The solution to this situation is obvious. Keep them private don't advertise anywhere but in club newsletters or by word of mouth. And make accommodations for you friend with a disability if it is possible to reasonably do so. It isn't perfect by a long shot. My desire in this not to keep the disabled away but rather to guarrantee the continuation of house concerts. Like I said early on, no one wins in this kind of debate. Don |
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18 Jan 06 - 03:53 PM (#1651115) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Jeri Don, you say, "But the word is PRIVATE Club which in the eyes of the law: a law which differes from state to state, implies invitation only." then, "And as for asking the "Experts" I'm one of them what is asked in Syracuse and surrounding environs." Which means unless GUEST's friend is in or near Syracuse, they should ask an expert in their local area. I admit that I didn't realize you were saying you were a expert in legal requirements for ADA compliance when I advised GUEST to ask an expert. When you wrote "I also assess for compliance with the ADA" I thought you meant you assessed compliance by a specific facility, not that you were responsibile for determining which facilities had to comply. My mistake. I think if you're dealing with a vindictive person, it seems like there are quite a few ways of dealing with this sanely. I'd be interested in hearing how this is resolved. |
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18 Jan 06 - 04:29 PM (#1651136) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: DonMeixner Me too. And by the way, I'm no expert, just good at what I do. And actually what I have described should hold true for the most part as it is a federal law. I meant that which is a Private Club may vary from state to state. The ADA by it's nature can't. This one of the reasons why I am always trying to avoid ADA compliance issues. Where the state and federal law meet is always a tangled mess. The confusion is always too much to deal with. I try and steer the parties towards commonsense, mutually satisfying conclusions that may or may not involve the ADA at all. I sometimes feel that if every one, even Kendall, would just do what I say we'd all be better off. Watch me as I duck and run. Don |
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18 Jan 06 - 05:25 PM (#1651172) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Jeri Don, I'm with you on the world domination thing. I was just about to tell you "don't make me come over there!" "I'm no expert, just good at what I do." Didn't Yogi Berra say that? I guess what it comes down to is finding the simplest, sanest solution. I can't really understand the amount of spite required for someone to want to ruin this for everybody, or even try to force the concert host to jump through a bunch of hoops. Re-modeling a bathroom that is private 99.7% of the year because one person might have to use it is ridiculous. Anyway, it seems there are a few easy ways to nip this in the bud, mainly involving the technicality of 'private' vs. 'public'. |
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18 Jan 06 - 09:11 PM (#1651295) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Seamus Kennedy Jeri, with respect, if you're dealing with a VINDICTIVE person, there are very few ways of dealing with it sanely. It sounds as if this person is quite willing to cut off his/her nose to spite his/her face. He/she is quite willing to lose a perfectly good listening venue because he/she can't have his/her way. I've worked in places where quadriplegic friends have allowed themselves and their wheelchairs to be carried up two flights of stairs to my gig, and then back down again afterwards. I don't think the person involved here is quite willing to do that. Seamus |
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18 Jan 06 - 11:46 PM (#1651370) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Jeri Seamus, I understand what you're saying, but just because one person's angry and nuts doesn't mean the other guy has to respond in kind. Often a rational solution (such as, in this case, making the event private), will frustrate a person who'd really like to 'zing' folks when their virtual blow misses its mark. So there might be more 'gotcha' points in an effective, peaceful solution that leaves no excuse for retaliation. |
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19 Jan 06 - 12:45 AM (#1651380) Subject: RE: House Concerts/Handicapped Accessible From: Seamus Kennedy Gotcha, Jeri. However, in this particular instance, it may be too late to make it private. Sometimes the rational, peaceful solution is difficult to implement, although there is a particular satisfaction in calmly and quietly pissing off an asshole. Seamus |