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25 Jan 06 - 09:02 AM (#1655395) Subject: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: beardedbruce "He said he would be open to negotiations with Israel, but only if the Israelis have something to offer and enter into talks with good will and respect for the rights of Palestinians. ... Asked if Hamas would ever recognize Israel, Zahar replied: "Never." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hamas, the militant Islamic group that has called for the destruction of Israel and is considered a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department, is expected to get at least one-third of the seats in the 132-seat Palestinian Legislative Council." http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/25/palestinian.election/index.html |
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26 Jan 06 - 09:08 AM (#1655895) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Paul Burke Looks like they are going to get the majority of the seats. Wonderful thing, this democracy, except when it delivers the wrong result. |
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26 Jan 06 - 09:15 AM (#1655902) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: beardedbruce No comments that the party that represents the majority of Palestinians has, as a declared goal, the destruction of the state of Israel? A little harder to say that this is just one madman.... |
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26 Jan 06 - 09:29 AM (#1655918) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC If Israel had ended the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and retreated to the pre-1967 borders (and left the Palestinians in those areas and Gaza in peace), this never would have happened. You reap what you sow. The Palestinians will continue to become more and more radicalized until Israel leaves them alone so they can get on with their lives. |
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26 Jan 06 - 09:39 AM (#1655929) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC "A senior Fatah official said it appeared Hamas was propelled to victory by public frustration over the mainstream faction's failure to achieve Palestinian statehood and anger over years of corruption in its institutions and in the Palestinian Authority." http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060126/ts_nm/mideast_dc |
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26 Jan 06 - 09:40 AM (#1655930) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Wolfgang This result may indeed be good news on the long run. The voters didn't care in particular about foreign politics in that vote. There are no real negatiations now between Fatah and Israel which could be in jeopardy by the result. They did care about the corrupt old leadership of Fatah which made sure that monies e.g. from the EU seldom reached those who needed it. Any threats that with the wrong result there would be no financial support is irrelevant for those who never did profit from the money. An incompetent and corrupt leadershiop has been voted out of office. Hamas, with this result, will likely go the way of Fatah, from a terrorist group to a political party, and they have already started this way some time ago (at least two years ago). The terrorist fringe will go to Jihad, whereas the majority of Hamas will go the other way, though still accompanied by violent language. Of course, both Israel and the new leadership of Palestine will negotiate, after some time even openly. They do so already at local level. Some village and town mayors from Hamas have talked to their Israeli neighbours about local problems. That will continue. The good news for Israel is that with Hamas they have a group who can implement an armistice effectively. The Fatah leadership could not really offer that for they had never the control of the militants and Israel knew that. Hamas can control the militants, so Israel could rely upon them (in case of negotiations) more to be able to prevent further attacks than up to now. Of course, things could go disastrously wrong, especially if some people would believe their own propaganda and act acordingly. Hamas could intensify the war of attrition if they were stupid. Israel could stop all negotiations with "terrorists" if they were stupid. And governments in the West could stop all support if they were stupid. But with some notable exceptions, Hitler being one, when people are elected to power they forget the old propaganda and start realistic politics. In my thinking, this result is a better reason for optimism than the other result would have been. Insisting upon Hamas taking part in the elections and bending some Israeli arms for that was one of the very few good moves of the present US government. Wolfgang |
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26 Jan 06 - 11:39 AM (#1655995) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST Beer Fred. Bury a Fred. |
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26 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM (#1656011) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Bunnahabhain I can't there being any more progress now until: Israel talks to Hamas as a legitiamte party. Hamas recognise the right of Israel to exist, and stops blowing it up. Unless they start talking again soon i.e. within weeks of the new Palestinian goverment being sorted, there will be less chance of peace in this generation than both sides settling down to eat a flying pig together...... |
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26 Jan 06 - 12:06 PM (#1656016) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: John MacKenzie Humho Hamas Hamess! G |
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26 Jan 06 - 12:27 PM (#1656032) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: wysiwyg ;~) What an honor to find myself among so many scholars of culture-- anthropology, philosophy, political science, and comparative religion! ~S~ |
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26 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM (#1656033) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk That sounds like a very sensible analyis to me, Wolfgang. |
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26 Jan 06 - 07:08 PM (#1656247) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Best wishes to the Palestinian people from many here in Ireland. A great day for freedom and congratulations to Hamas. Palestine is a proud nation and have our respect. |
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26 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM (#1656257) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Bobert Well, well, well... Hmmmmmmmm? Looks like a wonderful opportunity for a fresh start but folks is going to have to set aside the tempation to repeat "we don't negoitiate with terrorists in the name of making their particular constituencies happy and get on with it... Bush says to North Korea: Get ride of yer nuclear program and then we'll talk but until then, we're not talking to you.. End result: Another nuclear power in the world.. Bush says to Iran: We ain't gonna talk with you at all.. End result: Another nuclear power coming up... No Bush says that he ain't gonna talk to Hamas 'casue of their rhetoric??? Like Doctor Phil asks, "Is it working for you, pal? Bush's comments today, while serving his base, was not a step in the right direction... It shows a complete and arrogant minunderstanding of the Palestian people... (Ahhhhh, not to keep gettin' on Bush but he has blown yet another opportunity to say the right things... I mean, he ain't gotta get reelected so why not do and say something that might just be less confrontational... Especially at this time... Geeze...) Yeah, this, as Woldgang has pointed out could be a very positive developement in the Middle East if folks will just chill a little and leave the posturing for when it might better serve the peace process... Bobert |
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26 Jan 06 - 09:44 PM (#1656268) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Teribus "He said he would be open to negotiations with Israel, but only if the Israelis have something to offer and enter into talks with good will and respect for the rights of Palestinians. ... Asked if Hamas would ever recognize Israel, Zahar replied: "Never." Now the above is a fairly accurate representation of the Hamas point of view. That is a great pity because it is at complete and utter odds with what was decided and clearly stated by the Unitied Nations in 1948 and guaranteed by the United States of America in the same year. Taking a good look at the Wolfgang post of 26 Jan 06 - 09:40 AM "This result may indeed be good news on the long run" - Really? "The voters didn't care in particular about foreign politics" - Period, never mind about "in that vote", the so called voters will do whatever gunman, or self-appointed, politically inspired religious leader will tell them to do. "There are no real negotiations now between Fatah and Israel which could be in jeopardy by the result." There never really has been, that was the legacy of that complete and utter waste of space, who rejoiced in the name of Yasser Arafat. Who epitomised, "the corrupt old leadership of Fatah which made sure that monies e.g. from the EU" NEVER reached those who needed it. Instead it was pilfered and squandered, by the so called Palestinian Leadership in attempts to convince the majority of Palestinians that Tosser Arafat was still fighting on their behalf. In their return for this misguided belief for years the Palestinian People (If ever any such nation ever existed) were rewarded for their trust and devotion with "an incompetent and corrupt leadership" which now has been voted out of office. Hamas, with this result, will likely go the way of Fatah, from a terrorist group to "an incompetent and corrupt leadership". The terrorist fringe will go to Jihad, or the Al-Aqusa Martyrs Brigade, whereas the majority of Hamas will go the other way, though still accompanied by violent language, which the Israelis have no other choice but to pay heed to and listen to. Of course, both Israel and the new leadership of Palestine will negotiate, after some time even openly. With the undeniable reasoning that without the concession from Hamas that Israel has the right to exist there is no meaningful negotiation. "The good news for Israel is that with Hamas they have a group who can implement an armistice effectively." But the true realisation has to be that that is ONLY what it is, AN ARMISTACE, no resolution, no peace, no solution. Ultimately, Hamas does control the militants, so Israel could rely upon them to adhere to their avowed declaration that the State of Israel must be totally eradicated and driven into the sea. You see, because counter to Wolfgangs optimistic imaginings, things will most likely go disastrously wrong, Hamas will intensify the war of attrition, not because they are stupid, but because that is what their funding relies upon. Israel should stop all negotiations with "terrorists", because there is no negotiation with "terrorists", you can only negotiate with "terrorists" once the political wing of that "terrorist" movement realise that there is no military victory to be won. |
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26 Jan 06 - 10:48 PM (#1656278) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous Typical of a drunken Irishman such as Divis Sweeney above to congratulate terrorists. Nice view from your shanty, huh Divis? |
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26 Jan 06 - 11:25 PM (#1656297) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous This thread is easily revealing the anti-Israel Jew haters and Pro-terrorist Hamas supporters. C'mon, tell us why Israel should not now be fearful of a group of madmen who want to see them exterminated. Athiest liberals, tell us why you so much support a Hamas run theocracy. |
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26 Jan 06 - 11:36 PM (#1656300) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Divis Sweeney ..... supreme asshole ya are at that. Why anyone would feel elated about a terroist group such as the Hamas (whose mandate is to destroy a nation) winning that election is beyond comprehnsion. sIx |
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26 Jan 06 - 11:43 PM (#1656303) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous 6, there is truly anti-semitism here, as I have always said. There is a deep strain of it that can be found in certain far-left anti-establishment liberals. Amazing how a group of terrorists are perceived as the down-trodden because Israel is allied with America. |
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26 Jan 06 - 11:53 PM (#1656306) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 I tend to agree with you in some ways MG ... as I mentioned, the mandate of the Hamas is to destroy a nation. To put it bluntly and truthfully .. to commit genocide. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:00 AM (#1656310) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 "Israel offers more than anyone else ever has, to give up what 95% of Samaria and Judea for peace those offers are answered with more violence because the Arab-Palestinians never, ever wanted peace. They want Israel to cease to exist. That is the only thing that will ever satisfy their blood lust." Something to think about. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:17 AM (#1656313) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace It makes the Hamas leadership visible and available. And if they keep on with the 'exterminate Israel' theme, the tendency to 'glorify' the fight of the Palestinians--who have been used as pawns for decades by both the Jewish State and many of the Arab countries that surround Israel--will be met with a somewhat colder reception that it has to date. Tom Clancy in a recent book (bloody awful, IMO) started it with what I think was a quotation (but that could be faulty memory on my part) that read something like, "If you intend to grab a tiger by the tail you'd better have a plan for dealing with its teeth." Hamas would be well advised to keep that in mind. |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:26 AM (#1656318) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: MarkS Lets wait until after the Palestinian civil war is settled. I just cannot see Fatah saying, "OK, Hamas, you won, here are the keys to the government." Hope I am wrong, but, factionalism being what it is in the Middle East ..... Mark |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:31 AM (#1656319) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Divis Sweeney, your words do not help the Palestinian people. As you can see, there are people who will attempt to use them to justify the continued occupation and oppression of the Palestinians. As long as people can point to the existance of anti-Semitism anywhere in the world, some people will use that as an excuse for the total subjugation of the people of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the continued stranglehold on the people of Gaza. |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:51 AM (#1656327) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Israel offers more than anyone else ever has, to give up what 95% of Samaria and Judea for peace those offers are answered with more violence because the Arab-Palestinians never, ever wanted peace. This is total bullshit. First of all, Samaria and Judea were not theirs to give up. And secondly, the only thing Israel offered the Palestinians in the West Bank was tiny bantustans surrounded and separated from each other by segregated, Jewish only settlements, Jewish only roads, and Israeli controlled land, endless checkpoints within the West Bank, making it impossible to travel from one village to another, and a tiny fraction of their own water resources... not even enough for basic necessities (while the Jewish only settlements use the vast majority of the West Bank's water resources to water their lawns and fill their swimming pools). Israel offered total subjugation and endless bondage. The Palestinians have already given up more than 70 percent of the land of their forefathers. But that is not enough. Israel will not be finished with them until every last one of them is gone from the land their families have lived on and worked on and died on for more than a thousand years. Israel may not be saying out loud that their intention is to eliminate the Palestinians in their own land, but that is the result of its actions. And actions most assuredly do speak louder than words. Israel's greed is not just eliminating the Palestinians. Israel's greed is also killing Israel. |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:57 AM (#1656330) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: MarkS Don't the Palestinians have a homeland in Jordan? |
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27 Jan 06 - 01:00 AM (#1656332) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,guest When Hamas talks about obliterating Israel, they mean the government, not the people. They have not mentioned genocide. Palestinians (Muslims and Jews) should live together peacefully, side by side, and the governments should stop creating issues that separate the Semetic people of the Middle East. There is a great deal of difference between a government and its people. The people voted for Hamas but Hamas is not the Palestian people anymore than Bush is the American people or Israel is the Jewish people. |
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27 Jan 06 - 01:02 AM (#1656334) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC No they do not, MarkS. Jordan is not where they came from and it is the country of the Hashemites. Not the Palestinians. |
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27 Jan 06 - 08:29 AM (#1656375) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Oh dear, I see the usual brain deads have found their voice on this thread. Understand that Palestine, please note I refuse to call the land by any other name,has suffered under the hands of occupation as my own country did for over 800 years. Now the tide has turned we see fear in the words of the above two comedians.You have no understanding whatsoever what it's like to see your lands taken from you and governed by a foreign force. I visited Palestine twice during the seventies and saw it at first hand, have any of you ? Like my own country freedom is within reach for this great nation and again I congratulate Hamas on their victory, as do many in Ireland. Gone are the days of old men wearing fruit bowls standing with AR180'S telling news crews they will fight to the end before they leave their homes built on the soil of another nation. We saw enough of these hot air blowers last summer before their own soldiers escorted them away. CarolC as usual your words on any post speak wisdom,but continued occupation and oppression of a country can no longer be justified in the modern world and if people like myself appear jubilant it's because we are. |
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27 Jan 06 - 09:59 AM (#1656444) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Carol C. ..... I understand your passion and concern for the Palestinians who were kicked off of their land by the Israelis. Have you ever though about signing the deed of you house and property over to the Chickasaw, Choctaws, or Muskogee's?? Land taken over by a foreign force. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 10:07 AM (#1656453) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Bunnahabhain In 1947, when the UN division plan for the British mandated area for the area was being drawn up, the land ownership was as follows. 9% Jewish owned 3% owned by resident Palestinians 18% owned by non resident Arabs the rest (69%) owned by the authorities Population, 1945 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups. So, before the State of Israel existed, neither side owned the land, and there was a mixed population. Lets have an end to the 'land of their ancestors' routine round here. There have been many attempts to create peace in the region. The most sucessful ones included The Roman solution: Kill every jewish person in the area, and there one less faction involved And Divis, do you also support the Native Americans in reclaiming their land of their ancestors? There are tens of millions of people describing themselves as 'Irish American'. If they all get returned, it would sink the emerald isle. Which would solve one long running problem , I suppose.... |
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27 Jan 06 - 10:19 AM (#1656462) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Bunnahabhain In 1947, when the UN division plan for the British mandated area for the area was being drawn up, the land ownership was as follows. 9% Jewish owned 3% owned by resident Palestinians 18% owned by non resident Arabs the rest (69%) owned by the authorities Population, 1945 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups. So, before the State of Israel existed, neither side owned the land, and there was a mixed population. Lets have an end to the 'land of their ancestors' routine round here. There have been many attempts to create peace in the region. The most sucessful ones included The Roman solution: Kill every jewish person in the area, and there one less faction involved The ottoman one: People of all monotheistic religions have equal right to live, work and worship in this land. It's amazing how well that worked. People of all kinds living together rather more, noticing they all have the same god, and not too many holy men telling them their neighbour is an infidel. And Divis, do you also support the Native Americans in reclaiming their land of their ancestors? There are tens of millions of people describing themselves as 'Irish American'. If they all get returned, it would sink the emerald isle. Which would solve one long running problem , I suppose.... |
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27 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM (#1656476) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Really hate long winded statistic posts that say nothing. Bad enough reading it once, but twice !.Regarding native returns, what would the wealth and power base of America do if nomads left their shores ? Regarding my country which you seem to known little about, there is plenty of room over here due to the behaviour of an occupying force over many hundreds of years. Talk about things you know something about or statistics you can source son. |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:08 AM (#1656485) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace Check the history of your land. There were approximately 5,000,000 people there when the Potato Famine occurred. The famine took one million and emigration took another. |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:09 AM (#1656486) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,Larry K I think the Hamas landslide victory is good news for both Israel, the United States, and the rest of the free world. I believe Hamas is a terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel. (and probably the USA if they could) I also thought the PLO was a terrorist group. The only difference is that Arafat fooled the democrats, liberals, and anti semites (yes- it is so hard to pull the wool over Carol C. eyes) into believing that they wanted peace. Clinton and the Ossamites bought that hook line and sinker. It never fooled Republicans, conservatives, and anyone with a brain. Now, whenever the Palestinians commit a terrorist act, it is the official act of their country. They cannot hide behind "those crazy hamsas guys" who they claimed didn't exist, couldn't control, and didn't represent the majority of the palestinians. We now know they do indeed represent the majority of the palestinians. Finally, the rest of the world is waking up to the fact that the Palenstinians are terrorists. A fact we conservatives have known for a long time. To quote Randy Newman "lets drop the big one now" |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:20 AM (#1656497) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Pied Piper Zionism predates 1945 have you any population figures pre Zionism. PP |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:21 AM (#1656500) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 "Finally, the rest of the world is waking up to the fact that the Palenstinians are terrorists. A fact we conservatives have known for a long time." Now the truth is before our eyes. Right on Larry k.!! The bottom line to all this is that the Hamas are terrorist who propose the destruction Israel ... terror, murder, genocide, violence. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:32 AM (#1656515) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace Lost your cookie, Larry? |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:39 AM (#1656526) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 "I visited Palestine twice during the seventies and saw it at first hand, have any of you ? " was that a stop off on you way to a Lybian terrorist camp Divis?? sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:42 AM (#1656528) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Bobert Hmmmm???? Seems as if a lot of non-Isrealis here in Mudville seem to think the sky is about to fall upon Isreal... I just heard on NPR a recent poll taken of Isreali's even before the welection that indictated that 48% of Isrealis had no problems negotiating with Hamas with 43% opposed... Yeah, polls can be misleading but I think it is safe to assume that when Bush says that he has no intentions of talking with Hamas until Hamas has kissed King George's feet and met all King Georges pre-talk commandments... that King George is not speaking for either the majority of Isreali's or Americans... Sure will be nice when this cowboy is gone and no longer a emaressmant to the United States and menace to the world... Where's Jimmy Carter when America so desperatly needs him??? Bobert |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM (#1656534) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST "Where's Jimmy Carter when America so desperatly needs him???" In case you haven't noticed Bobert ... times have significantly changed sinced those days. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM (#1656552) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC number 6, your questions about me handing over my land have no relevance whatever to this discussion. I am not, nor have I ever suggested that Israel be given back to the Palestinians. And for you to continue to bring up that old canard in discussions like this one is an insult to your own intelligence as well as mine. What I am talking about, and what most others are talking about is for Israel to end its illegal occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and its illegal blockading of Gaza. Israel (the country that exists within the Green Line) should stay exactly where it is. |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:35 PM (#1656555) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups. This is a canard as well. Most of the Jews who were living in the area prior to the European's colonizing the area were Palestinians as well. And so were the Christians. The term "Palestinian" refers to people who had their roots in that area for many generations (over a thousand years). I has nothing whatever to do with their religion. The newcomers were the Europeans. Everyone else was a Palestinian. So yes, "land of their forefathers" is a perfectly apt term to use for the area that the Palestinians want to keep as their own. |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:38 PM (#1656556) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Larry K, the state of Israel was founded on the practice of terrorism. There would not be a state of Israel today had the people who created it not practiced terrorism. So you are being a total hypocrite to call the Palestinians terrorists. |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM (#1656560) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,number 6 "And for you to continue to bring up that old canard " ... first time I ever raised this 'canard'!! define legal or illegal ... in Israel's occupation? Anyway ... what is revelant to this discussion is "Asked if Hamas would ever recognize Israel, Zahar replied: "Never." So Carol ... are you defending a terrorist organization such as Hamas organization? sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 12:55 PM (#1656568) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC number 6, the occupation is against the Geneva Convention, the United Nations Charter (the very United Nations that people such as yourself use as legal justification for Israel's existance), as well as many other international treaties to which Israel is a signatory. According to these legally binding agreements, it is illegal to take territory by conquest. I am most certainly not defending Hamas, nor terrorism of any form. This includes terrorism as practiced by Israel. I believe in the Rule of Law for everyone, applied equally. You, on the other hand, by defending Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, are defending terrorism. As I said in my first post to this thread, had Israel obeyed the rule of law, and retreated to the pre-1967 borders (and left the Palestinians in peace), Hamas would not be in power in Palestine today. |
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27 Jan 06 - 01:12 PM (#1656582) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Christ I never thought I would get a laugh today. Finally, the rest of the world is waking up to the fact that the Palenstinians are terrorists. A fact we conservatives have known for a long time. It's not the Palenstinians bombing the crap out of Iraq by air or letting on they can't find one gentleman in Iran so they can keep their nose in there too.Such a lot of shit you wrote here. The world knows that American Republicans are the terrorists, not the world's police force as they seem to think they are. Yes num sick, I was on my way to Lybian, got a problem with that ? |
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27 Jan 06 - 01:19 PM (#1656585) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,number 6 ok .... but I disagree vehemently that Israel practices terrorism! "Hamas would not be in power in Palestine today. " ... I disagree with this, if not Hamas, something else, but very familiar in it's mandate ... it's a lot more complicated than that ... many parties have stirred the pot of discontent in arriving to where the world and the middle east is today. I have mentioned to you this in previous threads. "According to these legally binding agreements, it is illegal to take territory by conquest." Opening a rat's nest with that statement ... but I will stay away from it.One would get absolutely no where debating it. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 01:22 PM (#1656587) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,number 6 No .. Divis I have no problem with what you did on your summer vacations. So, what's your specialty ... shooting of kneecaps, making the phone call to the pub with the 15 minute warning, or maybe you were intelligent enough to make it as a money launderer. dIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 01:24 PM (#1656591) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad "occupation is against the Geneva Convention, the United Nations Charter (the very United Nations that people such as yourself use as legal justification for Israel's existance)," Was the U.N. willing to guarantee Israel's security if they withdrew from the pre-67 borders ? The Jewish people have learned the hard way not to risk their survival by depending on others to protect them. |
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27 Jan 06 - 02:14 PM (#1656610) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Wolfgang You (not all) make a nice display here how it could go wrong. "Never" is a word that should never be read verbatim in politics. I remember reading "not one bullet, not one ounce". I remember DeGaulle making a U-turn on the first day of being president regarding Algeria. I'm fairly sure one could find a Sharon quote with the word "never" in it for something he actually did later. Wolfgang |
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27 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM (#1656622) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Wolfgang Teribus, I'm sure that what you describe will actually happen if they follow your approach. Hard demands before the start of talks is the best way to prevent any change. A more optimistic approach in my eyes is to "pretend" that the other party has already given up the most extreme positions and start talking, then at the end the other side may give up the most extreme positions. But such an optimistic approach can go wrong (see: Hitler), so I'd be very careful and cautious as an Israeli leader. Less so as a Palestinian leader for they have less to lose and they can survive a big blunder. Israel possibly can't. Wolfgang |
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27 Jan 06 - 02:59 PM (#1656629) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Wolfgang Could Victory Be Undoing of Hamas? (a view from DER SPIEGEL) Ramallah's Virtual Reality (a view from a German Jew) Wolfgang |
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27 Jan 06 - 03:18 PM (#1656639) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney From: GUEST,number 6 - PM Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:19 PM I disagree vehemently that Israel practices terrorism! Christ can you believe this guy ! |
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27 Jan 06 - 03:19 PM (#1656640) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,number 6 Very good articles ... thanks for posting them Wolfgang. "It's bitter, but it's reality. What happens, happens." sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 03:31 PM (#1656646) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Mossad,Translation, cowboys who travel on American passports and kill at will. |
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27 Jan 06 - 03:58 PM (#1656661) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST Into the guinness a fair bit this fine Friday nite are ya Divis ... I hope you didn't spend all yer week's wages yet. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 04:13 PM (#1656669) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Sorry GUEST, Don't drink ! tea total. |
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27 Jan 06 - 04:17 PM (#1656671) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Good Divis ... stay on the wagon ...hate to see ya if you were drunk. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 04:18 PM (#1656672) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: TheBigPinkLad teetotal (nothing to do with tea) I know, but I'm bored ... |
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27 Jan 06 - 04:25 PM (#1656676) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Funny used to smoke Player's number six. Only sang when I did drink. Your right, because the singing wasn't good. |
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27 Jan 06 - 04:27 PM (#1656677) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 That's even a better reason not to drink. Player's number six ... was that similar to Player's Navy Cut? sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 04:29 PM (#1656678) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace Used to smoke Player's Medium. Haven't had one in years, mostly because I can't find them anymore. |
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27 Jan 06 - 04:31 PM (#1656680) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Yeah ... haven't seen Player's around either Peace ... they would burn your lungs out ... but you always had the calendar around with the pack. sIx |
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27 Jan 06 - 06:18 PM (#1656715) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Sadly both brands seem to have gone. Yes smoking is bad for you, but it cures Kippers ! |
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27 Jan 06 - 06:22 PM (#1656717) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Was the U.N. willing to guarantee Israel's security if they withdrew from the pre-67 borders? It's pretty obvious that Israel's security is not being served by the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (and Gaza during its occupation). Terrorism against Israel has increased as a result of the occupation, not decreased. And the United States has certainly offered to guarantee Israel's security often enough. That's what we in the US give Israel billions of dollars of our hard-earned tax dollars for every year (that we could be using for health care and better schools, if we were allowed to keep it). So whether or not the UN would do so is irrelevant, and it's a waste of US tax dollars for Israel to squander that money by making itself less secure with the occupation than it would be otherwise. If Israel can't keep itself safe with its own resources, it sould stop its expansionist policies. Those policies are what create the security risks that Israel faces. Otherwise, we should stop giving them money that we could put to better use here. |
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27 Jan 06 - 06:41 PM (#1656725) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Bobert And, fir anyone you doesn't remember the '67 war, it was called the "6 Day War" for a reason... Isreal so iniliated the Arab coilitition in 6 days that it was the Arabs who needed the protecting, not vice versa... It would have been almost a joke for Isral, after crushing its enemys to ask for "protection".... |
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27 Jan 06 - 07:11 PM (#1656734) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney This has nothing to do with the point CarolC is trying to get across. Yes the 1967 victory has to be admired but let's all keep to the point. Running off at the mouth sadly is my preserve ! |
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27 Jan 06 - 07:42 PM (#1656750) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Bobert The point I made was in reference to question regarding the UN guarenteeing protection of Isreal... This threat is not is entitled "Carol C's Thread" or "Divis Sweeney's Thread"... Even though CarolC is my bud, I have a note right here that says "Bobert is allowed to post stuff that has nuthin' to do with supporting CarolC's positions"... It'a called hte 1st Friggin' Amendment... Bobert (not CarolC but definately an admirer...) |
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27 Jan 06 - 08:20 PM (#1656765) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST No terrorists from Israel? I beg to differ - "In the past 18 months, to 1st May, 2002, Israeli terrorists have killed approximately 1,200, Palestinians, (now probably 1,600 - 1,800, up to 12th May 2002). They have used American tanks, American helicopter gunships, American warplanes, and American missiles against civilians. In the same period, in response to the Israeli killings, Palestinian suicide bombers have killed approximately 200 Israelis. Ariel Sharon oversaw the slaughter of over 800 Palestinian civilians, mostly women & children, in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in South Beirut in 1982. In Jenin the Israeli army used bulldozers to crush house in which civilians sheltered, the Israelis used civilians as human shields when they attacked Palestinians and checked for booby traps. These acts fall within the definition of war crimes. Israel has developed weapons of mass destruction and has over 200 nuclear weapons, and the USA has done nothing about it. The government of U.S.A. has funded and still funds and arms the Israeli terrorists. This year, 2002, USA government is giving Israel $2,000,000,000 in military aid, that's an awful lot of tanks, helicopter gunships, warplanes, missiles etc.etc. that's an awful lot of dead Palestinians, and that's nothing compared the previous years." From several sources. |
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27 Jan 06 - 11:37 PM (#1656833) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Israeli terrorism |
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28 Jan 06 - 12:36 AM (#1656852) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Guest ... your figures (2000-2005) for the Palestinian causualties is somewhere close at about 1600 killed by Israeli military, paramilitary and whatever. You have down played the Israeli figures considerably, those figures are are closer to 950 by terrorists and whatever. Children are included in the fugures for both sides. sIx |
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28 Jan 06 - 05:49 AM (#1656930) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Lot of interesting viewpoints above, sadly loss of life will continue in the region and lets not forget that whoever is right or wrong. Saw enough of that at first hand to do me a lifetime. Sorry Bobert point taken. |
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28 Jan 06 - 12:22 PM (#1657106) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Statistics from B'Tselem: http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Index.asp |
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28 Jan 06 - 01:07 PM (#1657125) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Excellent source, but somehow someone here will pass over on these and find an excuse for them. Did not realise they were so high. |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:13 PM (#1657163) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM (#1657168) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad "It's pretty obvious that Israel's security is not being served by the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (and Gaza during its occupation). " Would it not seem that the fact that Israel still exists as a state nearly 40 years after the 6 days war, surrounded by hostile neighbours as it is, belies the antipathy of it's ocupation ? |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:22 PM (#1657171) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk Say what? What is your point? |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:35 PM (#1657183) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad My point is that contrary to what CarolC said about Israel's security not being served by it's occupation of the West Bank etc. I think that it's continued existance in the middle of neighbours who would like to see it disappear disproves that sentiment. |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:43 PM (#1657187) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Would it not seem that the fact that Israel still exists as a state nearly 40 years after the 6 days war, surrounded by hostile neighbours as it is, belies the antipathy of it's ocupation? Not in the least. Israel was never in any real danger from its neighbors. Israel knew/knows this and so do its neighbors. |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM (#1657188) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Jewish homeland, but it seems to me that after the war the British and Americans put it in the wrong place - ie in the middle of half a billion arabs. What they should have done for the jews in 1948, of course, is give them Austria. Not as warm, but the skiing's better. |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:48 PM (#1657190) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad Well I don't know about you but being blown up by bombs and having rockets rain down on you would fit into my definition of danger. |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:48 PM (#1657192) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk Its continued existance in the middle of neighbours who would like to see it disappear has been achieved by great superiority in the methods and techniques of using deadly force. You could have said the same of Sparta, Prussia, England, the Iroquois, early Rome, Macedonia (under Philip) or any other such aggressive, expansionist national entity in the annals of military history. Plus...Israel has been massively funded and assisted from abroad, mostly from the USA. That always helps. Whether or not occupying various pieces of land in the search for "lebensraum" is beneficial or prejudicial to the continued survival of an expansionist state can be debated until hell freezes over without anyone ever reaching a final conclusion on the matter. One thing I do know. All such states are a plague upon their neighbours, and they eventually overreach themselves. Here is an article on lebensraum, which might prove instructive: the practice of occupying others' land - lebensraum |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM (#1657196) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC The fact that terrorism against Israel has increased since the beginning of the occupation belies any assertion that the occupation has made it safer. |
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28 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM (#1657199) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk Ironically enough, it's from the holocaust museum. We now see the sins of the onetime perpetrators of lebensraum being imitated by the sons and grandsons of their victims, but upon someone else entirely! That tends to happen quite often in tbe history of humankind. Boss yells at man. Man goes home and kicks dog. Dog bites cat. Cat scratches child. Child gives other child black eye. And so it goes... (and they all feel totally justified in doing it too...) |
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28 Jan 06 - 03:01 PM (#1657203) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad "All such states are a plague upon their neighbours, and they eventually overreach themselves." This is true of those states whose ambition is the pursuit of empire but does it hold true to those whose primary goal is self defense ? |
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28 Jan 06 - 03:03 PM (#1657205) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC "Self defense" is often used as legal cover for those who are in the process of building empire through acts of aggression. This was certainly the case in Nazi Germany. |
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28 Jan 06 - 03:19 PM (#1657217) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad But do you really think this is the case in Israel ? |
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28 Jan 06 - 03:52 PM (#1657241) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC But do you really think this is the case in Israel? Absolutely. The diaries and memoirs of former Israeli prime ministers and other architects of the state of Israel, along with quotes from their speeches and other writings prove it to be so. |
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28 Jan 06 - 04:19 PM (#1657250) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 "sadly loss of life will continue in the region and lets not forget that whoever is right or wrong." "but somehow someone here will pass over on these and find an excuse for them." Divis ... with those 2 statements you have posted the most meaningful words in this thread. sIx |
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28 Jan 06 - 04:54 PM (#1657276) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous Number 6, you are to be commended for your posts, however you are arguing with CarolC, a renowned hater of Israel and Jews and even more so now, one who defends an organization such as Hamas who most of the world recognizes as terrorists. But losers like CarolC and this Divis guy are extremely in the minority, but are just as dangerous as terrorists themselves. It's not worth arguing with idiots such as them. Really. Israel is under extreme threat to it's existence meaning it's government and it's people. President Bush has the confidence of all decent people when he says that Israel is our ally. Get it througf your fat heads, Palestine run by Hamas is certainly not our ally. I hope, like Larry K says, "let's drop the big one now." Or as the signs here have said in front of the synagogues: "Never again." |
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28 Jan 06 - 05:14 PM (#1657287) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Martin, please show me where I have defended Hamas. |
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28 Jan 06 - 05:58 PM (#1657297) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk bobad - Yes, I also really think that is the case as regards Israel. But it's not the ONLY thing one can say about the situation. So keep in mind, I also agree wholeheartedly that Israel is under genuine threat. No doubt about it. I do not divide this issue into good guys on one side and bad guys on the other! I see self-interest and fanaticism and utter purblind assurance of one's own righteousness and godliness as being illnesses from which both Israel AND their Muslim opponents are suffering. I see NO good guys in the forces commanding this wretched Middle Eastern dispute, only blind self-interest, greed, hatred, arrogance, and a misguided sense of holy martyrdom. They are so alike to one another in basic psychology, the Zionist Israelis and their bitterest Muslim Jihadi foes, that it is no wonder they can't stand sharing the same area of land in peaceful coexistence. One could almost say they deserve each other, if one were a complete cynic. I'm not. I feel sorry for the ordinary people, Jewish and Muslim, who suffer the consequences on a daily basis. The Israelis are a far better organized and more modern society than their opponents. This does not necessarily make them better people, it just means that they are far more likely to win military victories. That isn't a measure of human goodness. My view is, Jews and Muslims and Christians are all born equally good from the start, and there ARE no "chosen people" and there IS no "one True Faith" that is above other faiths. If they could just believe that themselves, well then, much progress could be made in settling these issues, couldn't it? |
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28 Jan 06 - 06:32 PM (#1657309) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace War possesses, it is true, its own grammar but not its own logic. War can never be separated from political relations, and if this separation occurs anywhere in the study, all the threads of the relations are broken in one way or another and there only remains a thing without meaning or purpose. Karl von Clauswitz, On War, 1832. |
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28 Jan 06 - 06:52 PM (#1657317) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk bobad - Yes, I also really think that is the case as regards Israel. But it's not the ONLY thing one can say about the situation. So keep in mind, I also agree wholeheartedly that Israel is under genuine threat. No doubt about it. I do not divide this issue into good guys on one side and bad guys on the other! I see self-interest and fanaticism and utter purblind assurance of one's own righteousness and godliness as being illnesses from which both Israel AND their Muslim opponents are suffering. I see NO good guys in the forces commanding this wretched Middle Eastern dispute, only blind self-interest, greed, hatred, arrogance, and a misguided sense of holy martyrdom. They are so alike to one another in basic psychology, the Zionist Israelis and their bitterest Muslim Jihadi foes, that it is no wonder they can't stand sharing the same area of land in peaceful coexistence. One could almost say they deserve each other, if one were a complete cynic. I'm not. I feel sorry for the ordinary people, Jewish and Muslim, who suffer the consequences on a daily basis. The Israelis are a far better organized and more modern society than their opponents. This does not necessarily make them better people, it just means that they are far more likely to win military victories. That isn't a measure of human goodness. My view is, Jews and Muslims and Christians are all born equally good from the start, and there ARE no "chosen people" and there IS no "one True Faith" that is above other faiths. If they could just believe that themselves, well then, much progress could be made in settling these issues, couldn't it? |
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28 Jan 06 - 06:52 PM (#1657318) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Really Martin this line is crap, But losers like CarolC and this Divis guy are extremely in the minority, but are just as dangerous as terrorists themselves. I think CarolC has brought a lot to this thread, as to myself. I fought forces of occupation in my country and defend it. You have a right to hold your viewpoint just as others have theirs.If you feel as strong as you appear to come across, stop the talking do as I did, do something about.This was a demacratic election, you can not ignore the voice of these people. For Christ sake show reason at some point. |
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28 Jan 06 - 07:05 PM (#1657325) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Greg F. For Christ sake show reason at some point. Divis, you've obviouisly not checked his posting history. Not gonna happen. Best your gonna get is his trademark bbrrraaaaaaAAAAAPPP. They don't call him Farty Marty fer nothin'. |
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28 Jan 06 - 07:10 PM (#1657326) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk A terrorist is simply this: someone who deliberately, with malice aforethought, acts in a way that terrorizes people in another group apart from his own...with the intention of gaining something in the process or just destroying those he dislikes and disagrees with. That being the case, governments are also terrorists when they bomb, rocket, evict, and torture people. For terrorists to call other people terrorists while ignoring their own terrorism is hypocritical in the extreme. To bomb people IS terrorism, whether or not the bomb is strapped to your body or dropped from a high-tech airplane. This is always plain to the people who are targeted, but not always to the perpetrator. Every terrorist imagines himself to be fighting for freedom. Without exception. This as true of the Muslim terrorist as it is true of the Israeli or American or Chinese or Russian terrorist. What they are fighting for is the freedom to MAKE other people agree to THEIR terms, that's what. It's freedom for them, slavery for the other guy. Every time. |
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28 Jan 06 - 07:14 PM (#1657327) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: DougR Where is Jimmy Carter, Bobert? He's sucking up to Hamas of course. DougR |
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28 Jan 06 - 07:17 PM (#1657329) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC People who advocate using nuclear weapons for the purpose of spreading empire are far more dangerous than any "terrorists". |
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28 Jan 06 - 07:44 PM (#1657333) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk Oh, well, that is really very large-scale terrorism. It does terrorize, afer all. That is precisely its intention, whether or not you get around to using a nuke. Just knowing it's there terrorizes people. |
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28 Jan 06 - 07:53 PM (#1657336) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Wasn't so much talk about Palestine before the hand over began.Maybe that's the problem here.One way traffic now sees a two way road.Sorry but the word terrorist is being thrown about a bit much tonight. People who fight for their rights and against wrong doing get the label stamped on them. When government leaders sit around a table making decisions that will end lives, what is this called ? |
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28 Jan 06 - 08:07 PM (#1657337) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 - PM "Date: 26 Jan 06 - 11:53 PM I tend to agree with you in some ways MG ... as I mentioned, the mandate of the Hamas is to destroy a nation. To put it bluntly and truthfully .. to commit genocide. sIx" I think there is a misconception here about the comments made by various Muslim factions about Israel. As far as I can see, none of them are advocating genocide. They seem to be talking about the destruction of the State of Israel, not about slaughtering the Jews. As for agreeing with Martin, it might be wise to examine more closely just what you would be agreeing with. For all his bleating about being dehumanised and victimised by the "anti Semites" of the Mudcat, our Martin remains one of the most bigotted characters on the forum, who seems to be in agreement with Adolf Hitler, when it comes to his deeply ingrained Homophobia. Practising what he preaches? Not Martin! Don T. |
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28 Jan 06 - 08:34 PM (#1657338) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk When Germans bombed Rotterdam, Divis, it was viewed as terrorism (and it was). It was viewed that way by the Allies, not the Germans. When the Allies bombed Hamburg, Dresden, and Tokyo, causing tremendously greater civilian death, it was viewed as legitimate warfare...by the Allies. Well, if you had been a German or a Japanese, you would have known it for exactly what it was: terrorism. War, you see, IS terrorism when it is inflicted on civilian targets on someone else's land. It's that simple. War involves terrorism and mass murder. To call only one's political opponents terrorists is a cynical, phony, opportunistic game of words. It's propaganda. If you fall for it, well, you are among the majority of people who naively believe what their government tells them when it says that "evil" only exists on foreign ground and in foreign hearts. Such is not the case. |
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29 Jan 06 - 10:21 AM (#1657347) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 "They seem to be talking about the destruction of the State of Israel, not about slaughtering the Jews." Oh ... ok. My misconception. Destroy a nation with out slaughtering it's people. I can't beleive this! Your a man with a great big human heart Don T. sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 10:24 AM (#1657349) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 MG ... Divis can at least see that murder and violence cannot be overlooked regardless of who is right or wrong ... that the stats of the victim count should not be made for any excuse, that I commend him for . As to the others ... it isn't worth debating. Israel, is under threat today, the threat comes not from whatever justices or injustices that were done in the past but from another mandate ... as I posted before, this mandate is genocidal in nature. Whatever one believes in politically, philosophically, or least of all theologically the promotion of genocide, violence, hate is not acceptable. We have had way too much of that in the past, it has to end sometime, at least for the sake o humanity. Humanity, that's what is being overlooked in a lot of these posts. sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 10:34 AM (#1657358) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Admire and agree with above. Well said sIx and Little Hawk |
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29 Jan 06 - 10:48 AM (#1657374) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Well said LH ... you got it right with that post! sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 12:21 PM (#1657407) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous True to a point, but Don T. comparing me to Hitler is ludicrous because I am repulsed by two men who have anal sex or give each other blow jobs. He is apparently just another one who has very little when it comes to morals and family values, that's all. |
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29 Jan 06 - 12:23 PM (#1657410) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous Keep deleting it and I'll keep posting this: Threads like this show who supports terrorism and who hates Israel and the Jews. |
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29 Jan 06 - 12:49 PM (#1657422) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney You really are not doing yourself or your nation any favours here Martin. To be honest some have put across viewpoints that has actually altered my way of thinking of your nation. You then come in guns blazing and want the situation your way or no way, it really does not work that way.So to cap it you are saying that everyone who does not support your viewpoint is a terrorist ? |
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29 Jan 06 - 12:52 PM (#1657425) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Thank you, Six, for your knee jerk reaction. I suppose I should have expected that. Let me pose a hypothetical question. What would your reaction have been, if, without the agreement of your government, a more powerful nation had arbitrarily decided to populate the State of California with previously stateless people? Would you not have been advocating the dismantling of that state, and the removal (N.B. NOT SLAUGHTER) of those people? The State of Israel is an imposed annexation of territory on the above lines, and it is hardly surprising that the Palestinians who have lived there for two thousand years might have some misgivings about being ruled by a religious entity (not, as has been pointed out many times, a race) which is foreign to their culture. Having said all that, I am not in favour of ANY of the actions they are indulging in, and I earnestly hope and desire that some political agreement may arise out of talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians. This, however, is unlikely if the Israeli government is not willing to engage in discourse with the elected representatives of the other side. Now, Martin Gibson, clearly established misogynist, and homophobe, by your own posts on this site; don't presume to lecture me on moral, or family values. You have little to boast about in that respect. I am 100% hetero, and a family man with several grandchildren, but I have one quality you clearly lack, and tat is tolerance for others who have different ways. If my comment about on A. Hitler hit a nerve, perhaps you should re-examine your attitudes, as you are clearly at one with him on the subject of gay people. Don T. |
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29 Jan 06 - 01:06 PM (#1657433) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,Paul Glickstein Martin I am a Jew and I am gay and I do not support murder and killing in my homeland. Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab and Jewish states, an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. Subsequently, the Israelis defeated the Arabs in a series of wars without ending the deep tensions between the two sides. The territories occupied by Israel since the 1967 war are not included in the Israel country profile, unless otherwise noted. On 25 April 1982, Israel withdrew from the Sinai pursuant to the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty. Israel and Palestinian officials signed on 13 September 1993 a Declaration of Principles (also known as the "Oslo accords") guiding an interim period of Palestinian self-rule. Outstanding territorial and other disputes with Jordan were resolved in the 26 October 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace. In addition, on 25 May 2000, Israel withdrew unilaterally from southern Lebanon, which it had occupied since 1982. In keeping with the framework established at the Madrid Conference in October 1991, bilateral negotiations were conducted between Israel and Palestinian representatives and Syria to achieve a permanent settlement. On 24 June 2002, US President BUSH laid out a "road map" for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which envisions a two-state solution. However, progress toward a permanent status agreement has been undermined by Palestinian-Israeli violence ongoing since September 2000. The conflict may have reached a turning point with the election in January 2005 of Mahmud ABBAS as the new Palestinian leader following the November 2004 death of Yasir ARAFAT. This is a new beginning which has to be accepted. |
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29 Jan 06 - 01:15 PM (#1657435) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Israel, is under threat today, the threat comes not from whatever justices or injustices that were done in the past but from another mandate ... as I posted before, this mandate is genocidal in nature. This is factually incorrect on many levels. Firstly, it is precisely because of injustices committed by Israel that it is so hated by people like Hamas. The Jews living in the Middle East prior to the colonization by Europeans did not have any adversaries of the like of Hamas. All of the ill will directed towards Israel is one hundred percent the result of the way the European Jews treated the indigenous people of the region, as well as Israel's expansionist policies in that region. And Don T's point is valid. The people who are calling for the end of the state of Israel are not calling for the elimination of any people. They are calling for the elimination of a political entity calling itself the "state of Israel" (ie: the governmental entity), not the nation of people who live within that state. I don't happen to agree with their feelings in this regard, but that is what they are advocating. They are NOT advocating genocide. And anyone who is trying to make us believe otherwise is doing so specifically to get us to sympathise with their agenda of ethnic cleansing and politicide of the Palestinian people, as well as a genocidal policy towards Arabs and Muslims generally. |
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29 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM (#1657449) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous Paul Glickstein, if you are a Jew and are gay of course you realize the Torah condemns that. I do. But go ahead and re-write history and make up your own rules for your own agenda. I just watched an interesting film, "Trembling before G-d." Perhaps you have seen it. What they did not show in it is how many people in a Jewish gay person's family are so hurt. Don T, your morals do leave a lot to be desired even though you tap dance about it. I am not lecturing you. I just realize that you think sodomy and oral sex between 2 men is just fine. Why don't you explain that to your grandchildren? Tolerance is not always a virtue to brag about for everything. Like tolerance of terrorists like Carol C who does not realize that Israel is the people itself. Destroy Israel, and you destroy Judiasm. Good, huh CarolC? It continues to amaze me how much Jewish hatred there is on Mudcat. And Divis, I could care less what a terrorist supporter like you thinks of America. You would be just so undesirable here. |
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29 Jan 06 - 01:56 PM (#1657452) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Israel is the people itself. Destroy Israel, and you destroy Judiasm. So you are saying that "Israel" is not connected to any particular piece of land? That "Israel" is the collection of people who call themselves "Jews", wherever in the world they live? |
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29 Jan 06 - 02:28 PM (#1657460) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Martin throughout the 1970's campaign in my country people like you with nothing but a mouth to offer did my nation more harm than good. I would imagine there are many within your community see you much the same. Why don't you talk less and enter the armed struggle for your nation that you so dearly love.It is a big move and takes nerve,you say goodbye to your life as you know it. Come on prove there is more to you than just talk. Doubt you would have what is needed son, it's a man's world. You could never ever contribute to a cause that requires more than lip service. Silly little wannabe, saw too many of your type over the years. Talk talk and more talk. |
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29 Jan 06 - 02:47 PM (#1657466) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Martin, I don't need to comment on your morals. You make my points so much better than I ever could. On a point of accuracy, however, I don't recall saying that I favour Sodomy. I do not. I also do not have the degree of megalomania which leads you to believe that you know the mind of God, for which reason I am quite comfortable with the idea of allowing others to live their lives according to their own morality, as long as they harm nobody. Live and let live you know! BTW, what are your logical reasons (if any) for your hatred of the opposite sex? You would appear to be in favour of nobody but yourself. Don T. |
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29 Jan 06 - 02:50 PM (#1657469) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST I thought Jews were the children of Israel. "...those whose primary goal is self defense", from a post above. So how do you explain the statistics on Palestinian deaths compared to Israeli deaths? Are you saying Israel is defending itself with righteous indignation or sweet revenge? I'd like to know the ethnic population statistics prior to the formation of the state of Israel. I would also like to know if their was major conflict between Muslims and Jews who both lived there. BTW - Hamas was elected because of its social and political policy. It was not elected because of the actions of its military wing. When you vote in America, do you vote according to what the army did while the party was in power? If so, I guess that means you all support the military under George Bush. I'd also like to know how anyone can defend the right of one group of people to displace another group of people. When this occurs in most countries, we call it ethnic cleansing. Why do we justify it when it is done by Jews? |
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29 Jan 06 - 02:56 PM (#1657474) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad "I'd also like to know how anyone can defend the right of one group of people to displace another group of people. When this occurs in most countries, we call it ethnic cleansing. Why do we justify it when it is done by Jews?" Probably for the same reason it is justified in North America. |
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29 Jan 06 - 03:40 PM (#1657496) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk "The Children of Israel" is an old expression from the Old Testament. Back then it simply meant: "those people belonging to the 12 Tribes of Israel and worshipping Jehovah". Israel was a mental/spiritual concept, not a physical place. It is incorrect to associate the mental/spiritual concept with a physical place located in modern Palestine. The concept was around for thousands of years, the state of Israel was created as a physical/political extension of that concept in 1948. Hitler had plans to do similar things in western Russia, on a bigger scale of course. He also had a spiritual/mental concept of a chosen people, a Master Race as he put it, and that was the Germans(Aryans according to him). They also were seen (by him) as God's chosen people. They needed "lebensraum" (living room)...according to him...and that room was going to be found in the vast plains of western Russia, rich in grain. By displacing the existing Slavic populations, Hitler was going to provide the German people with the room needed to achieve their god-given destiny. This would, of course, be at the expence of the local inhabitants! They would have to be removed somehow. Guess how? By war, that's how. Any of that sound familiar? Well, Hitler tried it, and the local people resisted. My goodness, how they resisted! They must not have believed that the Germans were "the chosen people". ;-) It's always hard to convince an invaded people that they are less entitled to their own land than you are...for some reason... Hmmm. The indigenous Jews in Palestine (sephardic Jews) and the local Muslims had been getting along fine with each other in Palestine for a very long time before European Jews arrived in the late 40's, unilaterally declared the existence of a brand new political state on other people's land, and used violence to achieve it. Now, however, we have the existence of that state established in no uncertain terms, and that is clear. So what must be done is to assure its future security from being attacked...and also assure that it returns areas outside its pre-1967 borders and does not attack its neighbours or annex their land. In other words, BOTH sides have to be convinced to stop attacking each other! This cannot be achieved when the great powers refuse to act as honest brokers and when they blatantly favor one party over another. The USA, for its own strategic reasons has blatantly favored Israel. The Soviets, for their own strategic reasons, blatantly favored Israel's enemies. Great power politics have contributed to a great many deaths in the Middle East, because the great powers have not sought real peace, they have sought strategic advantage. They only want peace insofar as their own immediate security is not threatened in too dire a manner...and insofar as it allows them to continue accessing all the oil they require. This isn't about anything nice, like freedom or God or democracy. It's about dominance and survival. |
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29 Jan 06 - 04:20 PM (#1657522) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 I commend you once more L.H. !! sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 04:24 PM (#1657530) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Don(Wyziwyg)T, number 6 lives in Canada, so he doesn't personally bear any of the costs of the state of Israel's supremacist and expansionist agenda. He's playing fast and easy with other people's money and other people's lives. Probably for the same reason it is justified in North America. There can be no justification for what the Europeans did (and continue to do) to the indigenous people of the Americas. |
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29 Jan 06 - 04:35 PM (#1657532) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC LH, the indegenous Jews of Palestine are the Mizrahim. The Sephardic Jews come from people who left what is now Israel and then returned some number of generations later. Nobody ever talks about the Mizrahim. I think that's because most Ashkenazim (Jews with European ancestry) are embarassed at the idea that there can be Jews who are Arabs. |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:14 PM (#1657538) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST Nice cheap swipe at me Carol.... I thought you had some sort of ethics. And exactly what do you mean "He's playing fast and easy with other people's money and other people's lives." sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:15 PM (#1657541) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Btw .. that was me there. sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:17 PM (#1657544) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk Thanks for the correction, Carol. It was the Mizrahim I was speaking of, then... |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:18 PM (#1657546) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC I could be wrong, but I was getting the impression that you don't oppose Israel's occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, number 6. If I'm wrong about that, please accept my apologies. |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM (#1657555) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 You know where I stand ... it you read my posts you'd get the picture. I have also in the past conveyed where I stand on the subject of Israel and Palestine. I have been understanding to your views, we may not agree but I never took our differences personally. "Whatever one believes in politically, philosophically, or least of all theologically the promotion of genocide, violence, hate is not acceptable. We have had way too much of that in the past, it has to end sometime, at least for the sake o humanity. Humanity, that's what is being overlooked in a lot of these posts." At least I try looking at both sides of the coin. My posts in these threads are trying to focus on it's issue ... Hamas. Not the past but now. Sorry, I thought you were beyond such personal remarks. sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:50 PM (#1657571) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous Nice tap dance, Don T. Obviously you approve sodomy between two men or you would take the time to explain it to your grandchildren. Please let us know their reaction. Carol C, all Jews are citizens of Israel. Destroy the country and you rip out the heart of all Jews. I can't believe all who side with terrorists, here. |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:55 PM (#1657576) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad "There can be no justification for what the Europeans did (and continue to do) to the indigenous people of the Americas." I am in total agreement with that statement Carol. I guess what I am grappling with is that as we who live here are the beneficiaries of an immoral act (the occupation of North America) how do we reconcile that with condeming others for the very same act as that from which we are benefiting ? |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:57 PM (#1657579) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Martin a very wise man on this site recently asked me to define what a terrorist is ?. Made me think. Lets hear your angle on it. Come on lets hear you. |
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29 Jan 06 - 06:58 PM (#1657581) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Don T. .... The following statement is from Mahmoud al-Zahar "But asked about Hamas' call for Israel's destruction, Zahar would not say whether that remains the goal. "We are not speaking about the future, we are speaking now," he said." He never denied the call for Israel's destruction. Definition of destroy from Merriam-Webster: 2 a : to put out of existence : KILL b : NEUTRALIZE : ANNIHILATE, VANQUISH sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 07:37 PM (#1657589) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous Divis, look in the mirror. But have another drink first. |
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29 Jan 06 - 08:16 PM (#1657599) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace Well, regardless of what all everyone's gonna say about this, a few things seem obvious to me. 1) Israel is NOT going to give up without a fight. 2) The Palestinians are NOT going to give up without a fight. 3) You folks ain;'t gonna give up without a fight. "There's gonna be a hot time in the old town, tonight." IMO, when Israel sees it has nothing to lose, there will be a nuclear strike against all their enemies in the mid-East. They will have no choice. Recall Dylan: "When ya got nothin' ya got nothin' to lose." Israel has been a pawn in the geopolitical shit in the mid-East for decades, just as have the Palestinians been. I think y'all better stop arguing history and start thinking about the reality. |
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29 Jan 06 - 08:26 PM (#1657602) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: bobad I guess what you're sayin' is that "a hard rains a gonna fall" |
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29 Jan 06 - 08:48 PM (#1657615) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Peace ... I'll post this one last time. ""Whatever one believes in politically, philosophically, or least of all theologically the promotion of genocide, violence, hate is not acceptable. We have had way too much of that in the past, it has to end sometime, at least for the sake o humanity. Humanity, that's what is being overlooked in a lot of these posts." sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 09:01 PM (#1657628) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous 6, please tell that to the ones who are promised 7 virgins in heaven. |
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29 Jan 06 - 09:10 PM (#1657635) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Well ... that is one of the beliefs of the Hamas ... they're a fundamentilist theocracy ... no wonder the Palestinians are now squabbling amongst themselves ... Hell I wouldn't want to follow the new government of the Hamas if I was a Palestinian. sIx |
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29 Jan 06 - 11:24 PM (#1657715) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Carol C, all Jews are citizens of Israel. Destroy the country and you rip out the heart of all Jews. It is no different for the Palestinians. The Palestinian people are their connection to the land. You destroy their connection to the land they have lived on, loved, and become one with for more than a thousand years, and you destroy Palestine, and the Palestinians. I do not advocate destroying Judaism (hence my belief that Israel should remain... within the 1967 borders), but you ARE advocating the complete destruction of the Palestinian people. Number 6, it is not a cheap shot. I pay for that occupation with my taxes and with the loss of good will toward my country because of my government's support of it. You do not. The Palestinians and the young men and women who serve in the Israeli Defense Forces pay for the occupation with their lives. You do not. I think this distinction is important. |
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29 Jan 06 - 11:32 PM (#1657718) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC I am in total agreement with that statement Carol. I guess what I am grappling with is that as we who live here are the beneficiaries of an immoral act (the occupation of North America) how do we reconcile that with condeming others for the very same act as that from which we are benefiting? That one is easy, Bobad. What we do is speak out against injustice when we see it being practiced around us in the world right now. It's too late for us to prevent what happened to the indigenous people of the Americas in the past. But we can speak up about continued injustices that they are experiencing today. And we can speak up about injustices that are being done to people in other parts of the world in our name. That is what I am doing here in this thread. You can do this too, if you want to. Maybe if people had done more of this sort of thing in the past, we wouldn't have so much to be sorry for right now. |
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29 Jan 06 - 11:53 PM (#1657723) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 "Number 6, it is not a cheap shot. I pay for that occupation with my taxes and with the loss of good will toward my country because of my government's support of it. You do not. The Palestinians and the young men and women who serve in the Israeli Defense Forces pay for the occupation with their lives. You do not. I think this distinction is important." What the F*#k are you trying to get across with that one ... lay a guilt trip on me because I'm Canadian ... you are one fanatic ... that is lunacy. Are you saying I should shutup and not express my views ... or as you say "playing fast and easy with other peoples lives". That is an insult. I think I have expressed myslf well enough here that I am not insensitive to issues of injustice, and that human life is cheap. Why do keep straying away from the subject of this thread ... no, you have to keep bringing up that old 'canard' as you say about the occuppied land of the 1967 war. Why the hell don't you post a separate thread on that issue ... layout it all out in a line for a seperate debate instead of trying to goat everyone you can in threads such as this. sIx |
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30 Jan 06 - 10:52 AM (#1657739) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Greg F. Hamas ... they're a fundamentilist theocracy... Hmmm... theocracy... Like Israel, you mean? |
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30 Jan 06 - 11:38 AM (#1657771) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,Paul Glickstein Policies have repercussions, sometimes bitter ones. The historic election landslide victory of the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, in Palestine on January 25 was merely a confirmation of this basic fact. Palestinians simply voted in a manner that reflects their reality. Secular Palestinians are not thrilled to see an Islamist movement come to the forefront of the historically secular Palestinian struggle to end the occupation and continue with the state-building process. However, those of us willing to look beyond the daily headlines, which emerge out of professionally spun mainstream media, are fully aware that Hamas' victory does not emerge from a vacuum. Palestinian reality in year 2006 is three-fold. There is the bitter reality of 39 years of a non-stop Israeli military occupation that has battered the Palestinians beyond recognition, but failed to break the Palestinians' will and determination to ascertain the basic human and national rights that are justly due to every indigenous people. Then, there is a decade, some would say four decades, of a monopoly on Palestinian politics by the moderate Fatah movement which mismanaged and abused its position of power to a point where the average Palestinian saw their governance serving the Israeli occupation more than serving the needs of a people hemorrhaging from an unrelenting Israeli onslaught. Non-violent resistences have failed Lastly, Palestinian reality today, after trying all possible non-violent methods to jerk the international community, particularly the U.S., into assuming its responsibility toward a people under occupation (as per the Geneva Conventions) have been left naked to take on their occupier single-handily, all the while, being coerced into becoming totally dependent on the crumbs and political agendas of donor aid. Initial knee-jerk reactions from Washington D.C. and Tel Aviv indicate that, not only have the U.S. and Israel failed to acknowledge that decades of aggression against Palestinians was sooner than later bound to result in bitter repercussions, but they arrogantly abolish themselves of any responsibility for this reality. Palestinians under occupation were left with little other choice, but to express their despair and frustration by electing into government a movement that many believe speak the same language as Israel has been speaking to Palestinians for almost four decades now, the language of force, both political and military. Instead of heeding to Palestinian's advice and to the facts on the ground, the international community preferred to only send international observers to oversee the most democratic elections process that has ever happened in the Middle East, despite the occupation's boot remaining on the neck of the Palestinians. Now it is the world's duty and responsibility to accept the outcome of the elections. Each and every country will need to redefine how it will deal with the sober reality that, once again, now by way of the ballot box, the Palestinians have provided them. The U.S., under President Bush, has caused so much havoc within U.S. foreign policy that the U.S. will now find itself a hostage of its own hastily drafted internal polices. Political wisdom, not Presidential evangelism, is what is required from Washington today. For the first time since the Oslo Peace Accords, Palestinian priorities are being set independent of foreign agendas. The donor community, led by the U.S., can choose to bring the Hamas government to its knees financially. This would be short-sighted and catastrophic for the region at large. Alternatively, Hamas can be given the needed time to reflect on their election victory and define a set of policies that coincide with their new position which will require them to be held accountable on a national and global level. Speculation is a risky business in the Middle East, but if Hamas'victory is viewed as a pilot project by Islamist movements in the region, we could expect them to excel in installing a better system of governance which has the potential to positively affect every Palestinian citizen. If they fail, they should only be removed through the same ballot box that they won by. Accept this Hamas are there. |
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30 Jan 06 - 12:03 PM (#1657804) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC IMO, when Israel sees it has nothing to lose, there will be a nuclear strike against all their enemies in the mid-East. This is nuclear blackmail, Peace. Israel will never have "nothing to lose". If Israel would decide to do what you have described, the suffering of the Israelis will be far greater than that of Israel's neighbors. Because the Israelis will die much, much more slowly from the after-effects of it's bombs than the people it targets. Only stupid people would do something like that. I don't think Israelis are stupid. |
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30 Jan 06 - 12:19 PM (#1657813) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC What the F*#k are you trying to get across with that one ... lay a guilt trip on me because I'm Canadian I'm saying that if you support the occupation, and you do not pay taxes in the US or Israel, and you do not live in the Palestinian occupied areas or serve in the Israeli military there, then, yes, you (and all others who support the occupation but don't bear the real costs of it) are playing fast and easy with other people's money and lives. And I stand by that one. |
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30 Jan 06 - 12:25 PM (#1657817) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Thank you, Paul Glickstein. I am grateful for your posts in this thread. |
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30 Jan 06 - 12:29 PM (#1657828) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace "This is nuclear blackmail, Peace." Carol, what do you call it when Hamas' leader says that it will not end until Israel is no longer there? Blackmail is blackmail. My fear during the Gulf War was that the missiles launched by Iraq would contain chemical or biological entities. That would have left the Israelis no choice. Don't make the assumption that I think it's a good thing. |
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30 Jan 06 - 12:32 PM (#1657832) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Peace BTW: The USA and USSR were involved in the ultimate 'nuclear blackmail' with their MAD policies. |
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30 Jan 06 - 12:39 PM (#1657838) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Carol, what do you call it when Hamas' leader says that it will not end until Israel is no longer there? Blackmail is blackmail. I agree. That is blackmail also. And I do not now, nor have I ever, defended Hamas or their position in this regard. |
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30 Jan 06 - 12:54 PM (#1657853) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 They why don't you just say that Carol and leave it at that (with respect to this thread) sIx |
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30 Jan 06 - 01:13 PM (#1657878) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC I don't understand your question, number 6. |
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30 Jan 06 - 01:42 PM (#1657917) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST,Paul Collinson R.A. Ex bomb disposal The IRA [Irish Republican Army] had been teaching Palestinian terrorists to build booby-trap bombs for use against Israeli soldiers.Whilst working for the Red Cross several devices I found were identical to those I encountered in Northern Ireland.I discovered more than 200 explosive devices while working in the area.I am convinced the bombs were either supplied by the IRA or made under their supervision at camp there. Many Provo's are known to have been in the area throughout the seventies and eighties. There has always been a close working link between the two groups.Skilled Irishmen visiting the area were feared by the Israeli forces. |
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30 Jan 06 - 02:03 PM (#1657940) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: GUEST Guest, Paul - Seems that you are spreading gossip and innuendo. What in the world do they have in common. I mean, whats in it for the Irish? Sure they have empathy for the Palestinians because they have both suffered from the occupation of foreign forces but c'mon, why drag the IRA into this? Are you trying to say they have a common enemy? I somehow doubt that Catholics and Muslims are collaborating against the British. If so, maybe the British should wake up and stop their acts of aggression on foreign shores. I would like to see some sources for your accusations. |
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30 Jan 06 - 02:35 PM (#1657977) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Never mind Carol ... is all this arguing worth it? I should have stayed away from this thread altogther . sIx |
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30 Jan 06 - 02:39 PM (#1657983) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk There's no question that many Islamic fighters wish to destroy Israel. I'm sure that many in Hamas wish to destroy Israel. Okay. However, Hamas has now been elected by the Palestinians. So the sensible thing to do now would be to negotiate with Hamas and see if their newly found status as a ruling political party can move them in a more moderate direction. It's a possibility, isn't it? Wouldn't it help? What is the alternative? You can't kill them all. That's already been demonstrated. How do you get extremists to moderate their views if you won't even talk to them? Demanding that they disarm (which seems to be what the Israelis want...) is unrealistic. It's as unrealistic as someone demanding that Israel or the USA disarm. They are not completely stupid, and they will not disarm any more than the Israelis will disarm. Nor will they promise never again to launch an attack on Israel unless the Israelis promise never again to launch an attack on them...and that ain't gonna happen. ;-) What you do when you have disagreements like this is...you talk...or you fight. Talking would seem more productive at this point. Fighting hasn't solved anything in the past, has it? Again, what is the alternative? Or is this just a question of two groups of people who are both so assured of their own moral superiority and trapped in their own angry rhetoric that they can't be bothered to talk sensibly to each other? (kind of like certain individuals on Mudcat...) |
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30 Jan 06 - 03:06 PM (#1657992) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 - PM Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:58 PM Don T. .... The following statement is from Mahmoud al-Zahar "But asked about Hamas' call for Israel's destruction, Zahar would not say whether that remains the goal. "We are not speaking about the future, we are speaking now," he said." He never denied the call for Israel's destruction. Definition of destroy from Merriam-Webster: 2 a : to put out of existence : KILL b : NEUTRALIZE : ANNIHILATE, VANQUISH Don't be disingenuous Six. His comment is about the State of Israel, not about killing its people. Two thousand years ago Israel was a country called Palestine, where Jews and Arabs lived out their lives in peace and unity. IMHO, if the Jews had moved back into Palestine in 1948 as citizens of that country, there would have been little or no resistence from the Muslims, and we might have seen a return to the original shared existence. Both would have brought their own unique qualities to the situation and Palestine would possibly have progressed to considerable prominence on the World stage. Dispossession of the inhabitants of any country must inevitably lead to conflict (how many young Americans died in the "Indian" wars?). Unless both sides are prepared to compromise, this situation is beyond resolution. If the only solution is two separate states, then interference with the affairs of one with the affairs of the other MUST stop. Neither side can pretend a high moral stance here, and the rest of us need to stop perceiving either as essentially right. They are not! Don T. |
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30 Jan 06 - 03:10 PM (#1657995) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Don(Wyziwyg)T That should read "interference with the affairs of one by the other MUST stop". Don T. |
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30 Jan 06 - 03:57 PM (#1658022) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC is all this arguing worth it? I don't know, number 6. I just follow my conscience. It's the best I can do. |
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30 Jan 06 - 04:27 PM (#1658048) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Paul this thread has nothing to do with the Irish. Please keep within the lines. |
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30 Jan 06 - 06:21 PM (#1658142) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: MAV No comments that the party that represents the majority of Palestinians has, as a declared goal, the destruction of the state of Israel? A little harder to say that this is just one madman....
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30 Jan 06 - 07:02 PM (#1658195) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk They lack the means to destroy Israel. That has already been demonstrated. Israel, with far greater firepower, evidently can't destroy them either. So why obsess about what they say when they lack the means to accomplish it? What they say is empty words. What has changed, except the fact that you can now talk to them in an open political arena? What will it gain you to NOT talk to them? Does hating people make you feel good? If so, why criticize them for doing the same back to you? |
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30 Jan 06 - 07:10 PM (#1658203) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk You know, when people say that they WILL NOT talk to so-and-so (be it Red China, Hamas, Saddam, Israel, the USA, Iran, etc...) because so-and-so is just soooooo bad and terrible that they cannot bring themselves to hold a dialogue with someone so awful... Well, they are just finding a convenient excuse to do absolutely nothing new, and nothing to moderate their own hardline position. They are avoiding moving one iota out of their own established prejudice and presumed position of advantage. That's all there is to it. It's selfish. It's stupid. It's unimaginative. It's self-righteous. It's inflexible. It's a delaying of the inevitable. It's lazy. |
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30 Jan 06 - 07:11 PM (#1658204) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney If you would have used the word negotiation to me ten years ago in my country I would have rejected your offer. Times change and the ballot box has a lot more firepower than the bomb or bullet . The future will prove this. Peace actually can be obtained. As long as people don't keep hitting you up the teeth with your past. |
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30 Jan 06 - 07:14 PM (#1658211) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk Now, that is the voice of reason. Well said, Divis. |
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30 Jan 06 - 07:19 PM (#1658213) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Divis Sweeney Thanks LH |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:02 AM (#1658314) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Teribus Don T - "Two thousand years ago Israel was a country called Palestine, where Jews and Arabs lived out their lives in peace and unity." Not so Don, there has NEVER been a country called Palestine, that is very much a 'modern' invention. "In historical contexts, especially predating the establishment of the State of Israel, Palestine was mostly a geographical term, particularly used in Greek, Latin, Arabic, and other languages taking their geographical vocabulary from them; it comprised the Roman sub-province of Syria Palaestina, roughly equivalent to ancient Canaan (including the Biblical kingdoms of Israel, Judah, Moab, Ammon, and Philistia) and thus included much of the land on either side of the Jordan River although with further political sub-divisions along the River Jordan valley ." (Source Wikipedia) With regard to negotiation, there must be a start point that indicates that the negotiating principle will prove fruitful. While Israel has always said that it is prepared to live at peace with its neighbours on the sole condition that they respect and recognise the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace. Hamas now must actually govern, useless threats and empty rhetoric will no longer suffice. For those who wish to promote the path of negotiation, it should not be too difficult to identify who's attitude has to undergo a bit of a sea-change. If it is internationally unacceptable for the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran to deny the holocaust and declare his desire that "Israel be wiped from the map", then it is clearly unacceptable for the elected representatives of the Palestinian people to hold the same view. Now negotiate from there. |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:14 AM (#1658322) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Palestine was a region. The Palestinians are the people who belong to that region. |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:19 AM (#1658327) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Once Famous Palestine is less recognized then a a sovereign state, such as israel is. Again. anti-Israel/anti-zionist = anti-semitic. |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:23 AM (#1658329) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Looks to me like you qualify for all three, Martin. You are the one who advocates policies that are leading to the ultimate destruction of Israel. |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:34 AM (#1658340) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Teribus CarolC - 31 Jan 06 - 11:14 AM "Palestine was a region." That more or less goes along with what I said. The second part is of course complete and utter twaddle - "The Palestinians are the people who belong to that region." Now CarolC did you mean - "The Palestinians are the people who live in that region". Because if she meant what she wrote in her post, I have the following question for her - Who decides who belongs and who doesn't - take great care quite a number of your fellow countrymen will be rather anxious about how this is determined, especially if 'belonging' to a place is negated by forefathers having taken the land by force from indigenous races or earlier settlers. |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:41 AM (#1658347) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 "especially if 'belonging' to a place is negated by forefathers having taken the land by force from indigenous races or earlier settlers." This will be scoffed off as raising "the old canard" ... good excuse to exit from the debate sIx |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:44 AM (#1658349) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 But I do think it is a good issue for one like Carol to answer. I find that line very good in this argument ... in having a mother that is Jewish and a fraternal grandmother that is Cree. sIx |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:46 AM (#1658351) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC By "belong to that region" I mean the indigenous people. Here in the Americas, the people we call the "Indians" are the people who belong here. The rest of us are newcomers (and some would say, interlopers). I know I certainly don't belong to this place. I merely live here. |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:52 AM (#1658361) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: number 6 Any guilt Carol .... newcomers tried to totally 'destroy' a race and their culture ... yes you are interloping on their land that was cheated out out from them. I understand your passion ... but sometiems you have to take a step back and look at what it is all about. Humans albiet they are Native North American, Israeli, Palestinian and Latvian all have faults. hey,but they just want someplace to live .. and live in peace. Simple, but made so complex by so few. sIx |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:55 AM (#1658364) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Teribus Then CarolC the question stands - Who decides who belongs and who does not? |
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31 Jan 06 - 11:57 AM (#1658368) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Precisely my point all along, number 6. All of them want a place to live and be free to be who they are, including the Palestinians. That's why it is incumbant upon everyone of conscience to do everything they can to make sure the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza are preserved for the Palestinians to have as their own. Which means ending the occupation, and honoring the pre-1967 borders. |
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31 Jan 06 - 12:01 PM (#1658373) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Who decides? Clearly the ones with the most power decide. But if we don't honor any sort of rules of basic decency, we end up with tragedies such as the genocide of the indigenous Americans, and the Nazi holocaust of Gypsies and Jews. |
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31 Jan 06 - 12:15 PM (#1658390) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Little Hawk I fairly much think that once you're born, you "belong" where you're born. Where the hell else would you belong, if not there? Accordingly, having been born in Canada, I do not use the expression "we did such and such to the Indians(Native Americans)" because I didn't do it. I believe in reincarnation. You don't know what I was back then. I might just as well have been an Indian, a black African, or a Japanese. You don't know. So don't blame me for something that people with the same skin color as me did long before I was born. That's just plain ridiculous, in my opinion. Neither do I feel guilty for whatever apparent advantages I may have gained in this present life by coincidentally being born into a white community in Canada at this particular time. One is not guilty merely by association. One is not guilty for being born into a relatively fortunate circumstance. One is guilty IF one commits harmful acts against others. |
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01 Feb 06 - 02:40 AM (#1658768) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Teribus CarolC - 31 Jan 06 - 11:57 AM "All of them want a place to live and be free to be who they are, including the Palestinians. That's why it is incumbant upon everyone of conscience to do everything they can to make sure the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza are preserved for the Palestinians to have as their own. Which means ending the occupation, and honoring the pre-1967 borders." So basically the deal that Arafat turned down in order to "kick-off" the Second Intifada would have done the trick, except for a rather major major fly in the ointment - the terrorist groups that Arafat did not control. CarolC, if you managed somehow to get Hamas to state that they were considering the possibility of recognising the State of Israel within the confines of any boundary, that would represent a significant turning point. |
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01 Feb 06 - 03:49 AM (#1658786) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: NH Dave I've come late to this iteration of this particular discussion, so I'll suggest several ideas here. Most of the state names we use today came about from the division of the lands of the Middle East, mostly by the British, after WWI, and many of the divisions and heads of states so divided had a lot to do with oil, and the Brit's desire to maintain control over the oil reserves they suspected or knew lay beneath these lands. Prior to WWI, the area was part of the Turkish Empire, that sided with the Germans during the war, and lost most of the lands they owned or at least controlled. Jimmy Carter was a kind Christian gentleman, but not a very effective president. His single term of office would seem to indicate that most of the Americans realized this. While he did much to promote peace, his reputation prevented his being effective in securing the release of the Americans held hostage in Iran after the Iranians overran our embassy there, another reason why he was not reelected. Reagan, on the other hand, was perceived as a person more given to direct action or reaction, and this perception secured the release of the hostages shortly after he took office. I suspect that the Iranians realized that Reagan would not stand still while our people were still being held hostage in any country. A local belief in my circles, "What is black and glows in the dark? Iran, after 23 January if the hostages aren't released." I suspect that the calmer heads in Iran also believed this. A fairly well understood concept of warfare is that the victors get to take the lands and goods of the losers. While the state of Israel was created by UN mandate, it quickly won several wars that they did not start, and gained a lot of formerly Arabic territory in these wars, some of which they gave back, either gracefully, or as a result of pressure from the US or the UN. Many of the "Palestinians" chose to leave or were forced to leave the lands they had worked for centuries, and became displaced persons, in refugee camps. Somehow they forgot the concept of war that I mentioned earlier, and felt that although they had waged war against the Jewish state, there were no consequences for their decisions to wage this war, or at least support its going forth. Ever since these wars there have been more and more "Palestinians" crying for the "right" to return to lands lost during armed warfare against the Israelis. The Israelis realize full well that although there may be land enough for refugee camps for Moslems who lose a war against Israel, the only land for a defeated Israel is the sea to their west! The stated Arabic purpose in this area is to drive the Israelis into the sea! It is also interesting to note that no Islamic nation has offered their own land to resettle these Palestinian refugees. These things having been said, the Israelis took a chance to promote peace in their region by giving some of their conquered lands to the Palestinians, even though their own people had built towns and lives on these lands, and had improved the land so it was arable again. So far I don't see anything good coming from this sacrifice, but at least the Israelis have shown that they are willing to sacrifice to bring peace to their region. Can the Palestinians do the same? Not from what I have seen so far. Dave |
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01 Feb 06 - 12:01 PM (#1659160) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Wolfgang The fact that terrorism against Israel has increased since the beginning of the occupation belies any assertion that the occupation has made it safer. (Carol) Wrong thinking and argumentation. Any pre-post comparison suffers from fatal flaws and should not be used in a rational discussion. The correct comparison would be the hypothetical comparison to a no-occupation situation today. And whether in this scenario there would be less terrorism is pure speculation. Wolfgang |
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01 Feb 06 - 01:08 PM (#1659232) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC So basically the deal that Arafat turned down in order to "kick-off" the Second Intifada would have done the trick, except for a rather major major fly in the ointment - the terrorist groups that Arafat did not control. This is bullshit, Teribus. Arafat didn't turn it down in order to "kick-off" the Second Intifada. He turned it down because what was being offered to the Palestinians was an apartheid state in which the Palestinians would be confined to tiny bantustans, ghettos, and concentration camps, and in which they would not be allowed or have the ability to move freely between their various tiny imprisonments, and in which they would be allowed to use only the tiniest fraction of their own water (not even enough for basic survival needs, and certainly not enough to keep their agriculturally based economy). |
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01 Feb 06 - 01:13 PM (#1659239) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC Wrong thinking and argumentation. Any pre-post comparison suffers from fatal flaws and should not be used in a rational discussion. The correct comparison would be the hypothetical comparison to a no-occupation situation today. And whether in this scenario there would be less terrorism is pure speculation. Not in the least, Wolfgang. During periods when the Palestinians had hope that they would eventually achieve self-determination (like during the period when they thought the Oslo agreement was actually going to do them some good), terrorism against Israel was reduced dramatically. The cause and effect is direct and provable. |
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01 Feb 06 - 01:19 PM (#1659249) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: CarolC A fairly well understood concept of warfare is that the victors get to take the lands and goods of the losers. Not according to the Geneva Convention and the United Nations Charter, NH Dave. Israel is a signatory to and is therefore legally bound by these agreements. |
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03 Feb 06 - 11:23 AM (#1661090) Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation From: Wolfgang Carol, you are using the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. But I am not surprised that you did not understand my critique. Wolfgang |