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21 Feb 06 - 11:23 AM (#1674851) Subject: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1714403,00.html has been sent to prison for remarks made in Austria seventeen years ago. I have mixed feelings about this. On a personal level, I think he is everything the judge called him and have no sympathy. I also believe he pushed his luck by returning to a country in which he knew he was unwelcome. However, I am not sure that my dislike for the man means I should want him locked up for three years. Can we discuss this without malice please? |
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21 Feb 06 - 11:27 AM (#1674859) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit I am sorry I buggered up that link. Here's another go. David Irving. |
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21 Feb 06 - 11:36 AM (#1674869) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Pied Piper I share your unease I just hope the white supremacist fuck-wits don't use him as a martyr. Another side of me hopes that in experiencing one millionth of the terror and degradation inflicted on people in Auschwitz (some of whom are still alive)he come to his senses but I'm not hopeful. PP |
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21 Feb 06 - 11:56 AM (#1674893) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Stilly River Sage In a news story on NPR this morning the interviewer asked why the man would return to Austria. The BBC reporter being interviewed said his partner had remarked that "David doesn't take advice well." |
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21 Feb 06 - 12:03 PM (#1674904) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST As much as I hate the man's ideas we should never go to jail for our opinions.....or our stupidty. It is far more dangers that the thing we are punishing him for. |
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21 Feb 06 - 12:07 PM (#1674915) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill The thing about David Irving is that he gave credibility to Holocaust denial by claiming to be a historian. People would say, I don't believe that the Holocaust didn't happen, but David Irving is a serious historian, and if he is saying this maybe there's something to it.. I don't believe in the Holocaust denial, but since Irving says it, maybe it wasn't six million; yes Holocaust denial is totally discredited, but maybe there weren't gas chambers, etc. He was an inept, bigoted, biased person whose claims to academic credibility have been previously destroyed. He was too proud to admit he was wrong and has been given a big fright. Many Jewish people feel that a better way of dealing with him would be to laugh at him, dismiss him, expose his incompetence. They are concerned that he will become a martyr and develop more followers. |
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21 Feb 06 - 12:22 PM (#1674923) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie I bet he didn't expect that was my first thought, and I couldn't care less whether he ever gets out. The man is a self seeking egotist who thought he could break the laws of another country with impunity. Not only that but when he was arrested this time he was back in Austria to address a right-wing meeting. Throw away the key mate, that's what I'd do. Giok |
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21 Feb 06 - 12:24 PM (#1674924) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Bee-dubya-ell Fifty years ago, anyone who seriously contended that the Holocaust was a fabrication would probably have been declared a menace to society and sent to a government-operated mental institution where he would have undergone a frontal lobotomy. |
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21 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM (#1674930) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) Well the expected pro-Nazi demonstrations never materialised, which must be good. I must say my feelings about this piece of Austrian "justice" are not mixed at all. The sentence is outrageous. How can they possibly defend it at a time when newspapers and magazines across Europe are exercising their entitlement to publish cartoons of a so-called prophet? Perhaps it's an over-zealous attempt to atone for the enthusiasm with which Austrians in vast numbers rallied to the fascist cause over the years - as, for instance, a few years ago when Kurt Waldheim was exposed as a war criminal. Having spent quite a lot of time promoting genocide awareness, supporting organisations committed to "remembering for the future," and studying one particular genocidal crime, I do have mixed feelings about Irving himself. His scholarship is widely recognised among serious historians, notwithstanding that many find his views and some of his conclusions repugnant. I suspect his views about Auschwitz-Birkenau; the degree to which Hitler steered or was aware of the Final Solution, etc, were honestly held (he has admitted he was wrong about the gas chanbers at A-B). But he allowed himself to be sidetracked and became obsessive. I can understand, without supporting, his resentment of what Norman Finkelstein has termed the Holocaust Industry (on which matter Finkelstein won support from the foremost Holocaust historian Raoul Hilberg). But I am delighted that Irving's stance has been so comprehenseively rebutted, by Prof Deborah Lipstadt and others. It was a stance calculated to mislead the gullible and needed to be challenged. Rebuttal is exactly the right way to deal with a problem such as Irving presents. Prison is most certainly the wrong way. For anyone interested, here are a links to the relevant pages of two organisations that encourage education about genocide and commemoration of its victims. The second in particular is doing magnificent work in the field, largely unsung. Peace Pledge Union Aegis Trust |
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21 Feb 06 - 12:35 PM (#1674934) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Clinton Hammond I'd drown him like a bag of unwanted puppies |
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21 Feb 06 - 01:02 PM (#1674951) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles The problem of having such a well-intentioned piece of legislation is that you have to been seen to enforce it. The other problem is that once in place - such legislation can be used for all sorts of things. The man appears to be a fool and as such - is no real use as a martyr. Perhaps poetic justice would be served by locking him away and then denying it ever happened? |
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21 Feb 06 - 01:46 PM (#1674993) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,Penguin Egg A bad day for freedom, which must be defended at all costs. Irving's opinions are neither here nor there. It is a dangerous precedent which should make us all wary. |
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21 Feb 06 - 02:00 PM (#1675005) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,Dáithí As has been said above - the details don't matter. (As a matter of fact I agree the man and his views are repugnant.But so are many people's.The answer is to ridicule with the facts). But the fact that one can be imprisoned by the State for holding an opinion should be of the gravest concern. |
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21 Feb 06 - 02:22 PM (#1675028) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Emma B I don't think that Irving was imprisoned for merely holding an opinion but, as Freda so lucidly stated, abusing his position as a "serious" historian by choosing to pronounce those opinions in a country where the legislation expressly prohibited that particular distortion of evidence for historically understandable reasons. |
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21 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM (#1675032) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,smiler They have locked up a 67 year old man for expressing an opinion. If the evidence is so overwhelming that six million jews and several millon others died in the camps (and I believe it is), then such a denier will only be ridiculed. When things become sacrosanct, it is everyones right, to question it for themselves. If there was ever a problem with this, what is orthodoxy afraid of? |
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21 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM (#1675033) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST I think he was imprisoned for all of the wrong reasons.. opinions, no matter how odious, should never be a crime, nor should being a bad historian warrant three years behind Bars. We are getting dangerously close to a form of self righteous fascisim and it scares me far more than Mr. Irving does. |
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21 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM (#1675042) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: greg stephens I couldn't care less what happens to a fascist shit like Irving. I do care what happens to political life in Austria, or anywhere else tempted to renact this ludicrous type of legislation. My feelings on this type of law is the same as what I feel about capital punishment: these laws degrade the people who enforce them. Sending someone to prison for writing the wrong kind is history is too demeaning to contemplate. However, I must say I like the suggestion earlier in the thread that they should lock him up, and then pretend they haven't! |
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21 Feb 06 - 02:40 PM (#1675045) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Big Al Whittle bloody brilliant.... a result! at last someone is standing up these awful people. they despoil every bloody thing they touch and how they must laugh at the democratic courtesies of places like mudcat. it's not really a case of of free speech - for those people who haven't really caught the drift. it is people - lots of people abusing our free society. Mr Irving is a very readable writer with an attractive demotic style. thus companies who should know a lot better, give his books big promotional pushes when they are published - the real villains are the giants of the high street book shops. the freedoms of our society were very hard fought for. there are some capitalist gits who sell those freedoms for a mess of pottage every time they get the chance. and should not Mr Irving enjoy those freedoms, I hear the appeasers chorus. well put it this way for those right ideologues - should someone be allowed to advocate the murder of the royal family, or the poisoning of the water supply. Mr irving's ideas are a more subtle poison. Of course they should be allowed, they just shouldn't be sold quite as energetically as the basic decencies. |
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21 Feb 06 - 03:07 PM (#1675067) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Rapparee My friend Kevin was born and raised Mennonite. He is still a practicing Mennonite. He held completely to the non-violence ethic of the Mennonites -- until he visited Dachau. Now he debates with his pastor, and was nearly drummed out of his church for stating that, in his opinion, war and violence are sometimes justified. Laughing at the Klan, the ANP, the BNP, the Aryan Brotherhood, or any of the other such groups don't make them disappear. They respond, "Hitler was laughed at, too" or even "Jesus was laughed at and mocked just as we are." On "Talk of the Nation" just a little bit ago it was said that Irving said in Court that he learned that the Holocaust actually happened in the 1990s. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay...but he did NOTHING to change what he had written and said earlier and in fact pursued a libel suit in England against a woman professor of Holocaust Studies. |
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21 Feb 06 - 03:12 PM (#1675075) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Richard Bridge A statement made 17 years ago. |
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21 Feb 06 - 03:41 PM (#1675096) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles He was found to have broken the law. |
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21 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM (#1675097) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Wolfgang Some of you obviously have no real knowledge about this, so it seems to me when I read the posts. The sentencing is not 'outrageous' but a simple consequence of the law. The judge had no alternative to a prison sentence (one could only debate the number of years). The law in question is not a normal law regarding free speech or stupid opinions, it is a law specifically regarding lies about the holocaust and nothing else. You can lie about Stalin's, Pol Pot's, the Turks', Bin Laden's crimes or whoever you want to and it is merely a question of bad taste. Not so in this case. These specific laws (in Germany and Austria) have been a demand of the Allies after the war to which there has been no alternative. In the case of Austria, the 'Staatsvertrag' which left the whole of Austria outside of the Warsaw pact and neutral and meant a retreat of the Red Army also binds Austria not to change that law (I don't know whether there is a time limit) as far as I know. So if you attack the sentence it only shows you are not informed, the law itself may be debated (as Greg has). I see no majority both in Austria and Germany for a change of these laws at this time in history. When the last survivor of the holocaust will have died then there might be the time for a change of these laws to the usual European standards of free speech. Up til then, they are a special legacy of our murderous past. BTW, Irving has recanted during the trial and said he now accepts the holocaust as having happened. Wolfgang |
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21 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM (#1675103) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Bert Well said Wolfgang, Thank you. I had not posted to this thread earlier, because I am completely in the dark regarding the political and legal situation in Austria. |
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21 Feb 06 - 04:03 PM (#1675116) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) Emma B, he went to jail because he abused his position as a "serious" historian? What on earth are you talking about? If he is NOT a serious historian, it's hardly of any consequence whether he abuses his poition. If he IS, then he's entitled to his viewpoint, whatever we think of it. "...where the legislation expressly prohibited that particular distortion..." sounds a little bit Orwellian to me. Do we really want to live in this kind of world? Rapaire, your friend Kevin's take on war and violence is all very illuminating I'm sure, but sometimes we need to think these things out for ourselves. I don't want to get sucked into defending Irving's views, but I've never heard him claim that the Nazi genocide of European Jews took place in the 1990s. I suspect you're just peddling tittle tattle, but if there is any substance to it I would appreciate some kind of reference. |
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21 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM (#1675148) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie How can someone expect to be taken 'seriously' as an historian if he denies what is obviously true. That I think is what EmmaB meant Peter, and I agree with her. Irving is the victim of his own arrogance, and also of his fairly obvious bias. It is not possible to equate this with the Cartoons episode, there was no law against the cartoons which there is against holocaust denial in Austria and several other countries. Giok |
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21 Feb 06 - 06:13 PM (#1675242) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST "His scholarship is widely recognised among serious historians". No it isn't. His absence of scholarship is widely recognised among serious historians. |
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21 Feb 06 - 07:09 PM (#1675280) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Fooles Troupe Being punished by The State for denying 'FACTS' of history seems like a good idea. But who decides what the 'FACTS' are? "Who watches the watchers?" |
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21 Feb 06 - 08:08 PM (#1675337) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill This site Court Case between David Irving and Professor Deborah Lipstadt and Renguin Books has some excerpts from the case for the defence in the case in which David Irving (the plaintiff)took Professor Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books (the defendents) to court when she challenged him for falsefying historic records in her book (published by Peguin) DENYING THE HOLOCAUST, The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory (the Work), published in 1994. excerpts from case for the defence: 1. It is admitted that the Plaintiff is a well-known writer, and the author of a biography " Goebbels, Mastermind of the Third Reich" (hereinafter referred to as "the Goebbels book"). It is denied that the Plaintiff is an historian. Save as aforesaid, paragraph 1 of the Statement of Claim is not admitted. 7. that the Plaintiff holds extremist views, and has allied himself with others who do so, including individuals such as Dr. Robert Faurisson, and Ernst Zundel; 8. that the Plaintiff, driven by his obsession with Hitler, distorts, manipulates and falsifies history in order to put Hitler in a more favourable light, thereby demonstrating a lack of the detachment, rationality and judgment necessary for an historian; 9. that there are grounds to suspect that the Plaintiff had removed certain microfiches of Goebbels' diaries contained in the Moscow archives, from the said archives without permission; and that the Plaintiff lied and/or exaggerated the position with regard to the unpublished diaries on microfiche of Goebbels contained in the Moscow archives, and used by him in the Goebbels book; 10. that in all the premises, the Plaintiff is discredited as an historian and user of source material, and there was an increased risk that the Plaintiff would for his own purposes, distort, and manipulate the contents of the said microfiches in pursuance of his said obsession. P A R T I C U L A R S Meaning (i) - (iii)(v): The Holocaust and the Gas Chambers 11. The Plaintiff has publicly claimed as follows : 13. "Auschwitz was not an extermination camp and the Holocaust was a propaganda hoax by the British... That question [the Holocaust] is still wide open. I still maintain Auschwitz was not an extermination camp. There were no gas chambers there, I think they were a figment of British wartime propaganda..." 14. "I also predict that one year from now [1992], the Holocaust will be discredited. That prediction is lethal because of the vested interests involved in the Holocaust industry. As I said to the Jewish Chronicle, if a year from now the gas chamber legend collapses, what will that mean for Israel? Israel is drawing millions of dollars each year from the German taxpayer, provided by the German government as reparation for the gas chambers. It is also drawing millions a year from American taxpayers who put up with it because of the way the Israelis or Jews have suffered. No one is going to like it when they find out that for 50 years they have been believing a legend based on baloney". 15. "I do not think there were any gas chambers or any Master Plan. It's just a myth and at last that myth is being exploded." 16. "Why dignify something (the Holocaust) with even a footnote that has not happened" (when dealing with the new edition of "Hitler's War", written by the Plaintiff and published by the Plaintiff's own imprint, Focal Point in November 1991); 17. "The gas chambers were erected in Poland for the tourists". in this court case of 1996 (a lot more recently than 17 years ago), the judges found against Irving and in favour of the defence. |
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21 Feb 06 - 08:25 PM (#1675349) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill BTW, David Irving's twin brother is highly sceptical of Irving's claim that he now believes millions of Jews were killed by the Nazis and that gas chambers did exist. Irving's twin, John Irving, holds totally different views to David irving and serves as chairman of Wiltshire Racial Equality Council. Asked about his brother's recantation before a Vienna court, John Irving told The Times: "If I said 'E pur si muove!' would it mean anything to you?" The quotation is often attributed to Galileo who was forced by the Inquisition in 1633 to retract his heretical belief that the Earth moves around the Sun. The astronomer and philosopher was facing the death penalty but escaped with life imprisonment after disowning his findings. Under his breath, he is reputed to have murmured the now famous Italian phrase meaning: "Yet still it moves." David Irving's books are sold via a website belonging to a publishing company run by Ms Hogh. Although he often claims to have rejected his old views, he makes the full texts of his works available on the internet for free downloading. Nuremberg: The Last Battle is filled with references to claims that Nazi gas-chamber atrocities were exaggerated by the Allies. Various versions of his book Hitler's War are freely published there too. His website hails "the courageous Viennese students" whose invitation to Austria resulted in his arrest. It claims that, while in prison, he has handwritten a 600-page autobiography Irving's War. Irving makes regular visits to the United States, hosting the annual Real History, USA, Festival in Cincinnati. Highlights have included a showing of Leni Reifenstahl's notorious propaganda film Triumph of the Will about Hitler's 1934 Nazi congress in Nuremberg. |
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21 Feb 06 - 08:44 PM (#1675365) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,Joe_F I have not made a study of the matter. But (as an American, I suppose) I have to suspect that there is some truth in allegations that need to be suppressed by such means. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Truth is not stranger than fiction. It is sillier. :|| |
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21 Feb 06 - 08:47 PM (#1675368) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill and that, Joe, is the problem. |
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21 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM (#1675369) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Rapparee My point is that Kevin has thought for himself, and in doing so damned near got thrown out of the religion he grew up in. |
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21 Feb 06 - 09:39 PM (#1675412) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Richard Bridge I am not clear that the Austrian law contains any necessity of deliberate falsehood, ie lying. I thought it was a crime to deny the Holocaust, whether or not you believe your denial to be the truth. I find such a law troublesome as a matter of principle. I also find any prosecution for a crime 17 years old to need very clear justification. |
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21 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM (#1675420) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill If you read Wolfgang's post of 21 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM, you will see that these laws, specifically regarding lies about the holocaust, were a demand of the Allies after the war to which there has been no alternative. In the case of Austria, the 'Staatsvertrag' which left the whole of Austria outside of the Warsaw pact and neutral and meant a retreat of the Red Army also binds Austria not to change that law. And if you read my earlier post you will see that Irving is still promoting his anti-Holocaust views, and had in fact gone to Austria to propagate them. The 17 years ago thing is a myth and a furphy. freda |
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22 Feb 06 - 01:58 AM (#1675522) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles The actual crimes were committed a lot more than 17 years ago. Should we allow these to be forgotton and anyone responsible not brought to account bacause of this time lapse? There are practical difficulties when the few surviving witnesses are no longer with us - but I do not see that how long ago a crime was committed should matter apart from this factor. |
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22 Feb 06 - 03:24 AM (#1675543) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Keith A of Hertford Peter K, Irwin did not claim it happened in the 90s, he said that was when he learned it had happened. Wolfgang, the history of the laws is interesting. There has been criticism of Austria for not persuing war criminals with such vigour though. In the muslim world much is being made of this. They do see it as meaning that our devotion to freedom of speech is selective. Perhaps those post war laws in Austria and Germany should be brought up to date? |
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22 Feb 06 - 03:42 AM (#1675548) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Paul Burke The Austrians have these (rather draconian) laws as a conscience-salve; they have never really faced up to Austria's enthusiastic embracement of Nazism from well before the Anschluss to the point where it was obvious that the war was lost. For political reasons (to do with Russia), Austria was classed as a 'victim' after the war, and they never went through the full investigation process that (west) Germany did. Hence the last generation of Austrian politicians having their dubious past regularly brought to light. On the other hand, no one can have sympathy with Irvine. The smirking bastard is well funded by neoNazi sympathisers, who picked up the bill when he lost the libel trial. I think he was expecting a few thousand pounds equivalent in fines; hence his shock at the prison sentence. His (like Hannam's) freedom of speech amounts to the proverbial shouting of fire in a crowded theatre, given the prevalence of Nazi clingers-on in much of central Europe. |
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22 Feb 06 - 04:20 AM (#1675561) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Richard Bridge I await an informed response as to whether the crime required knowledge of falsity. I have seen news footage of Irving's lawyers expressing astonishment about the sentence, and their intentions to appeal on sentence, which would seem unlikely if the sentence actually passed was mandatory. I have also heard that application is due to be made for Irving to serve most of his sentence in an English nick - where I expect he will find some sympathisers! |
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22 Feb 06 - 04:36 AM (#1675575) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Big Al Whittle oh bugger! won't they take him at guantanamo bay? |
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22 Feb 06 - 04:46 AM (#1675577) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST Having knowledge of how Austria sentences other crimes would add perspective to this case. |
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22 Feb 06 - 06:11 AM (#1675636) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Fooles Troupe "90s, he said that was when he learned it had happened." The man is thus obviously a discredited cretin as a researcher - one of the main skills of a historian. |
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22 Feb 06 - 08:10 AM (#1675726) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST The evidence that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust is as overwhelming as the evidence that Al-Quaeda terrorists were responsible for the events of 9/11. |
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22 Feb 06 - 08:42 AM (#1675748) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,Redhorse at work Irving's defence in Austria was that in 1998 he had discovered evidence that the chambers at Auschwitz really existed, so he changed his mind. In 2000 he told the High Court in London ""I deny that millions died in the gas chambers because of the logistical problems for a start.....There are so many Auschwitz survivors going around, in fact the number increases as the years go past, which is biologically very odd to say the least. I'm going to form an association of Auschwitz Survivors, Survivors of the Holocaust and other liars, or the ASSHOLS." No comment. nick |
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22 Feb 06 - 08:53 AM (#1675762) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST So being an asshole is reason to go to prison. Well, they better start building more because if being Stupid is a crime there won't be many of us left on the outside. |
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22 Feb 06 - 09:33 AM (#1675794) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Big Al Whittle David Irving is the very opposite of stupid. certain kinds of asshole do indeed need to be in prison. |
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22 Feb 06 - 09:57 AM (#1675823) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) Freda, you are probably right to say we should take Irving's recantation with a pinch of salt (wonderful though it is, for me, to see him reduced to making it). I don't think it's such a good idea to get worked up about the fact that he is still trying to sell his books. That would never be reason enough for me to want to see someone imprisoned. How could I then excoriate the catholic church for its book-burning history? Wolfgang, it is disingenuous to suggest that Austria has no options. For a start, Austria's record in dealing with war criminals is worse than any country's, according to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre. In other words they have discretion about whether to make arrests, prosecute etc. In the cases of at least 40 people accused of Nazi war crimes (ie not just accused of saying the wrong things) they have chosen to take no action. I cannot put a date on it, but Austria has been free for many years to make and amend its own laws. The one in question here was, in fact, amended some time in the 1990s. I don't know what the effect was of that amendment, but it would have had nothing to do with Soviet concerns. Richard, as far as I have ever seen, it is sufficient to deny the Holocaust. Whether this is done in good faith does not seem to be a factor. There are similar but less extensive and less draconian laws in France, Germany, Poland Israel, etc. |
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22 Feb 06 - 10:01 AM (#1675829) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill How can it be done in good faith? |
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22 Feb 06 - 10:10 AM (#1675839) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John on the Sunset Coast Much as I despise Irving's rot, I equally despise the fact that he would go to prison for it. Where's a Voltaire (or whomever) when you need him? |
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22 Feb 06 - 10:17 AM (#1675844) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) Richard was raising a question of intent, Freda. Anyone can believe anything, particularly where there is a paucity of documentary or forensic evidence (as there is for instance on the question of the extent to which Hitler controlled and directed the Final Solution). It boggles my mind that people can believe the world was created in six days, 10,000 years ago, and that others believe in Voodoo. But idiotic though such beliefs are, they are sincerely held by many intelligent people. According to my definition (which may not be the best) anyone who says what he believes is acting in good faith. |
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22 Feb 06 - 10:46 AM (#1675880) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Grab As Fionn says, anyone who says what they believe on a matter over which there is no evidence, or where the evidence is prone to alternative interpretations, can justify themselves. But anyone who makes statements they know to be false has no such defense. In Irving's case, if he'd just said that Hitler didn't know about the extermination of Jews, he'd be safe. Even though most people would reckon it's a safe bet he did, we don't have evidence one way or the other. But he went and said that the extermination of Jews never happened. Now this is a statement that's so easy to disprove, it's beyond credibility that he could truly believe this. The only possible explanation is that he was lying, and this lying has successfully increased his bank balance over the years. In other words, like any other con artist, the only belief he's been imprisoned for is the belief that he could get away with it. Graham. |
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22 Feb 06 - 03:37 PM (#1676154) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Wolfgang The relevant Austrian law is from 1947 and can be safely said to have been strongly influenced by Allied ideas. I was wrong, however, about the German law. It came later, at a time when there was no specific Allied pressure anymore. The Austrian law (Verbotsgesetz) starts by prohibiting the NSDAP and all other Nazi organisations. Then comes a very long paragraph 3 which is the relevant paragraph here. It starts (roughly) "It is prohibited for everyone, even outside of the ...(Nazi)... organisations to work for the NSDAP or its aims in any way". Then follows a very long list of what that means and a few pages later in Paragraph 3h (the relevant Irving paragraph) it says with many more words that anyone who in print, radio... denies (or plays down, or approves of,...) the Nazi genocide or the Nazi crimes is to be punished with 1 to 10 years of imprisonment, if he is dangerous with up to 20 years. (BTW, the correspopnding German law punishes with up to 5 years.) 3 years out of 1 to 10 (assuming that Irving is not dangerous) without probation for a repeated crime seems quite normal to me. The state attorney has already lodged an appeal for he thinks the sentence is too low. The interesting question will be in the appeal proceedings whether the recanting is believed or not. If it is believed a probation sentence could be thought of. The judges have not believed the recanting for the obvious reasons Redhorse has mentioned above. As I said the meaningfulness of the law can be debated, but as long as it exists any sentencing has to follow the law. Wolfgang, it is disingenuous to suggest that Austria has no options. For a start, Austria's record in dealing with war criminals is worse than any country's... (Peter K) Peter, do you mean to say that a lack of performance of a state's duty in one area should necessitate a similar lack in another area? Now to the Staatsvertrag of 1955 between Austria and the four Allies. Austria became a free country with several restrictions (without any time limit). One funny restriction is that Austria may not become a monarchy reigned by members of the former Habsburg family. One other interesting restriction is by the way that Austria is not allowed to join Germany in any way (that made some difficulties when they joined the EU). The relevant paragraph is paragraph 9 (I use my words): Austria may not allow any form of the NSDAP or any form of Nazi activity or propaganda (my emphasis). The threat of punishment for such crimes has to continue. Then comes paragraph 10: "Austria commits (obliges) itself to uphold the principles that are layed down in the laws... (concerning the NSDAP etc. in the sense of paragraph 9)... approved by the Allied Commission for Austria after 1.5. 1945 and to continue their implementation" Well, I doubt there would be a war if the Austrians now opted for a Habsburger monarchy again. After so much time lapsed, some of the paragraphs read a bit out of time. But at the moment Austria has not the alternative to revoke these laws without violating the founding Staatsvertrag. This particular clown is surely not worth to start a serious debate whether all regulations of the Staatsvertrag are still meaningful. Wolfgang |
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22 Feb 06 - 04:49 PM (#1676193) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: DougR It seems to me that jailing someone because he or she states an opinion is ridiculous. Irving is not my kind of guy, but he has a right to an opinion. DougR |
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22 Feb 06 - 06:17 PM (#1676247) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: autolycus DougR - too blunt. It's not just any old opinion,Irving is not any old opinion-holder. The Austro-German laws are about one specific situation, one where spouting any old view can actually be DANGEROUS. If the fact of the Shoah (Holocaust) is denied, then that denial being in a class of its own could lead to disaster. Especially when we have already seen how democratic (sic) governments can close down debate, treat merely contrary views as treasonous, then allowing holocaust denial is a different ball game from French Revolution denial. Look at Iran |
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22 Feb 06 - 06:23 PM (#1676250) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Fooles Troupe Do mass murders and child molesters have a right to the opinion that what they do is 'not wrong', or is that only 'our opinion'? This is highly relevant to certain Australian individuals at the moment, there being pressure to lock them up and never let them out. |
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22 Feb 06 - 07:31 PM (#1676297) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles This is highly relevant to certain Australian individuals at the moment, there being pressure to lock them up and never let them out. I was tempted to post that most Autralians are bloody convicts any way but I thought that was in poor taste and decided not to post it. |
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22 Feb 06 - 07:32 PM (#1676298) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles Ooops! |
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22 Feb 06 - 07:46 PM (#1676310) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles It would be ironic that when the appeal is sent in the official resonses is: David Irving? We deny that any evidence exists for a conviction of anyone under that name. 17 years should be long enough for the Austrian courts to keep this up. Then they could recant - and then deny it again for another 17 years. |
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22 Feb 06 - 08:12 PM (#1676329) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) Thanks for all the info Wolfgang. I think perhaps you misunderstood the point I was making in that bit you quoted, but I now realise that I might already by then have misunderstood a point you were making in your first post. I thought you were suggesting that Austria was merely giving effect to legislation imposed by the Allies, and that therefore the Austrian court had no option but to jail Irving. I referred to Austria's indifference about pursuing war criminals to show that there had been similar scope for discretion in Irving's case. There would hardly have been an international outcry if the police had allowed him to continue his journey to the border. (I'm not here saying whether they were right or wrong, just that they had a choice.) One other thing, Wolfgang: are you sure that the merits of the case will be heard again at appeal? I would have assumed that as only the sentence is being challenged, the only issue would be whether the punishment fitted the crime. I do take your point that both sides are challenging the sentence, and that the sentence could be varied either way. For what it's worth, I'm sure it will not be increased and fairly sure it will be decreased. Foulestroupe, I would say that yes, child molesters etc are entitled to their opinions. If you start tampering with that, you've descended into the territory of the thought police. I suppose I should add, in case someone misunderstands, that I think no-one is entitled to molest children. |
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23 Feb 06 - 03:39 AM (#1676559) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit I never had much sympathy for Irving and have not yet been persuaded to muster any. At the end of the day, we do not make the law in Austria. The Austrians do and the rest of us simply need to observe the law when we are there or face the consequences. David Irving already broke the law there once and then decided to return and repeat his offence against Austrian law again. He has been jugged and it is his own fault. I personally dislike like genital mutilation of women, sexist legislation, public floggings and executions. I have every (legal)right to speak my mind on the subject in any number countries. I may well have a moral right to do this in Saudi Arabia. However, if I choose to exercise this "moral right" in Saudi Arabia, how much sympathy can I expect from Mudcatters? |
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23 Feb 06 - 06:02 AM (#1676619) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Pied Piper All there is to know about Adolph Eichmann EYES - Medium HAIR - Medium WEIGHT - Medium HEIGHT - Medium DISTINGUISHING FEATURES - None NUMBER OF FINGERS - Ten NUMBER OF TOES - Ten INTELLIGENCE - Medium What did you expect? Talons? Oversize incisors? Green saliva? Madness? (Leonard Cohen in Flowers for Hitler) |
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23 Feb 06 - 06:34 AM (#1676639) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) alanabit, "you may well have a moral right..." May well?? I hope you would find that there are a few Mudcatters, at least, who regard Saudi Arabian justice as no justice at all and who would rally to your cause if you fell foul of it. By the way, if you read the thread you will see that your assertion that Austrians make the law in Austria is not quite right, particularly in this specific case. As the Austrian legislature was abled to amend the relevant law in the 1990s I suspect they could also have revoked it if they'd wished, but Wolfgang may know more about that. |
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23 Feb 06 - 07:49 AM (#1676689) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill David Irving is a man who reveres Hitler, hates Jews, and attempted to persuade the world through falsifying historical evidence that the Holocaust did not happen, and that in fact it was concocted by a conspiracy of Jews. He is exactly the sort of person this legislation was created for. |
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23 Feb 06 - 07:57 AM (#1676694) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Fooles Troupe Freda, you omitted "and teh arrogant shit truly believed that he would get off, perhaps with just a fine." |
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23 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM (#1676883) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Wolfgang Peter, I think there would have been a kind of outcry by those who know the law exists. I have no idea whether the merits of the case will be heard again at appeal. In Germany, it depends (on a lot of things) whether that happens or not. We even have two different words for it but both are translated as 'appeal' in my dictionary. Wolfgang |
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23 Feb 06 - 03:08 PM (#1677019) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit Peter, what I was really trying to draw attention to, was the fact that Irving went to great lengths to provoke the law in Austria. So in my opinion, he has little reason to bleat now that the law was enforced. I know that you have about as much sympathy with Irving himself as I do. What we are debating, is whether there was a need to send this unsavoury crank to prison. I respect your views. I find myself asking all sorts of other questions though. I don't have all the answers yet. I know Austria fairly well. Fortunately for me, I know the more liberal and "weltoffene" side of the country. I am well aware that another side exists. Most of the Austrians I know would be unlikely to want to change their law in the light of what has happened to Irving. (That does not necessarily make either of us right or wrong). I personally like the Holocaust denial law, because it makes life that little bit harder for liars and hate mongers to peddle their filth. I don't feel it threatens freedom of speech any more than a law which punishes bigots, who try to incite violence against blacks. I am open to persuasion that there may have been a better way of making laws. However, although we would appear to hold the legal system of (say) Saudi Arabia in similar esteem, I have no intention of going there to open a branch of CAMRA or to sing songs about the sexual excesses of The Prophet! It isn't hard to stay out of prison in Austria. David Irving worked hard to get where he is now. May he stay there for at least another three years. |
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24 Feb 06 - 11:25 AM (#1677759) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles However, if I choose to exercise this "moral right" in Saudi Arabia, how much sympathy can I expect from Mudcatters? As you tend to get very little support from most Mudcatters for the execise of the most basic human rights on our forum - so you should expect none in the example given? |
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24 Feb 06 - 11:28 AM (#1677761) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Shambles Proposal for members only posting of BS |
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26 Feb 06 - 06:49 PM (#1679763) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) BBC Radio 4 today broadcast a programme about Irving v Lipstadt and Penguin Books. For the next seven days the broadcast is available HERE - look for it in alphabetical order under David Irving. In the course of the programme, Donald Cameron Watt, Emeritus Professor of International History at the London School of Economics, said: "My own view was that he was a man whom you had to take seriously, even if you thought that he was quite clearly twisting and reading evidence to the benefit of his own cause." Freda, etc, please note! Someone - maybe Watt again - said it was important that Hitler had his defenders, if only to show the weakness of his case. At the end of the programme the presenter, Michael Cockerill, noted that Irving had now been jailed. He said Deborah Lipstadt's response to that had been to say that "jailing Irving, as opposed to arguing him, risked turning him into a martyr. The most potent way to fight lies is not with censorship or incarceratioin but with the truth." My view entirely. The Austrian judiciary now has time to regroup and replace the three-year sentence with something more in tune with the times. |
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27 Feb 06 - 08:05 AM (#1680144) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) And a more serious apology: I singled out Freda wrongly, having confused her with the faceless guest of 21 Feb (6.13pm). Sorry Freda. |
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28 Feb 06 - 01:22 AM (#1680858) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Keith A of Hertford In a new interview he still says he does not believe that the Natzis carried out a systematic campaign to wipe out European Jews. His reason apparently is that there were too many survivors! |
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28 Feb 06 - 02:43 AM (#1680874) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill alanabit, this is such a good thread and I agree with everything you have said - there are a lot of reasons to be concerned, it is a very complex situation. Wolfgang has explained a lot - i have learnt a lot from all comments on this thread. and Peter, no problems, best wishes freda |
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28 Feb 06 - 04:08 AM (#1680900) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit There really is no excuse for Irving to spout such nonsense. Most of the Holocaust was meticulously documented by the perpetrators themselves. There are also thousands of documents accesible and plenty of excellent literature, by among others, Dr. Guido Knopp and his team of researchers at Frankfurt University. His way of thinking seems to be that if he shouts a lie loud enough and often enough, someone will believe it. It was Hitler who said early in his career, "If we are going to tell a lie, it had better be a big one". There can be some debate about whether people should be locked up for shouting lies. There can also be some debate about whether that is the right tactic or not. However, by no stretch of the imagination can Irving's incarceration be attributed to anything except his own arrogance and stupidity. |
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28 Feb 06 - 05:37 AM (#1680921) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill agreed. and it's about establishing truth - what is truth? repeat WHAT IS TRUTH? when events have happened, why do people project their twisted perception of reality and try to "redefine" or remake history? what inner need does it serve, to make our own version of the world? in any situation, people can argue, philosophise, justify or deny - as armchair critics we have the right to speculate, debate and discuss - but courts are about establishing beyond doubt whether events under examination actually happened or not. A scientific process, conducted through the examination of evidence. there may be debate as to the punishment meted out to irving. but there is no debate as to whether the Holocaust happened. |
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28 Feb 06 - 05:57 AM (#1680928) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Roughyed Irving is always described as a historian but in the potted biographies I have seen (not many admittedly) I haven't seen any academic qualifications. There seem to be two questions here. Is the Austrian law right and should Irving have been jailed under it. As some have posted above if you go to a country, break the law quite publicly and then return you can expect what you get. I think that Irving uses Holocaust denial as a way of taunting Jews and I think that is unacceptable. Not being an Austrian I can't really appreciate how important or not this law is to them but it must make it more difficult to be a Nazi in Austria and that is no bad thing. I think repeating racist lies reinforces them. |
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28 Feb 06 - 07:40 AM (#1680953) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Fooles Troupe "In a new interview he still says he does not believe that the Natzis carried out a systematic campaign to wipe out European Jews. His reason apparently is that there were too many survivors! " They just ran out of time! |
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28 Feb 06 - 08:34 AM (#1680984) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) Foulestroupe, it would be a reasonable courtesy to give a source when you quote directly. In any case there is a more coherent account of what he said on BBC radio HERE on the BBC website. (In an interesting illustration of how easy it is to lose sight of objectivity when emotions have been aroused, the BBC originally headed this item: "Irving repeats Holocaust denial." But they quickly reined in and replaced that with the present heading. All that aside, I'm going to have one more go at this issue, from a slightly different tack. It is plain that most of those who think Irving got what he deserved share my deep dislike of the man. But that dislike should not be a factor in how he is treated. In fact it is a complete irrelevance. The point at issue is perfectly simple: should anyone be jailed for what he says? Should anyone, indeed, be jailed for "his own arrogance and stupidity," as seems to be good enough reason for alanabit? For me, Voltaire's famous take on free speech is one of the high watermarks of civilisation, and a guiding principle. But how could I hold to that if at the same time I allowed myself the indulgence of cherrypicking when to apply it and when to ignore it? Free speech is a patent nonsence if it means only the freedom to say what we want to hear. Deborah Lipstadt - not only a respected historian but also someone who lost family to the Holocaust - has seen beyond one wretched little man to support a greater cause. Set against that level of objectivity, some of the reaction here to Irving's jail sentence looks small-minded indeed. If he serves the three years, I hope that this will produce the sense of satisfaction that some Mudcatters seem to need. |
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28 Feb 06 - 08:34 AM (#1680985) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie If jailing Irvine might turn him into a martyr, and jailing juvenile offenders turns them into hardened criminals, both of which have been touted as truisms, then why do we bother to jail anybody at all? We could let the families of murder victims kill whoever they think is the perpetrator, we could give juvenile offenders tickets for holidays in exciting places, we could castrate all sex offenders! Silly? Yes of course it is, if someone knowingly breaks a law, [and allegedly boasts beforehand that he is going to do it], of course he deserves to go to jail. Holocaust denial? Funny phrase but in essence a law that in a decent world would have no meaning. The law on vagrancy in England was I believe brought in after the Napoloenic wars to stop returning soldiers wandering round the country getting into trouble. The law still stands, but what price Napoleon coming back? Giok |
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28 Feb 06 - 03:28 PM (#1681502) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit Ah Peter, I do not think Irving should be jailed only for his arrogance and stupidity. (I freely admit that is enough to wipe out any lingering trace of sympathy I had for him though). Irving effectively dared the Austrians to imprison him. I actually agree with most of what you say about freedom of speech. Indeed, the way we react to those, whom we dislike is a good test of our commitment to it. David Irving is not fighting for freedom of speech. He is fighting for freedom to lie. That is not a freedom I will ever support. He deserves that "freedom" no more than the other racists, who shout lies and try to provoke violence against ethnic groups. He has had his day in court. Overwhelming evidence of lying has been presented against him. We reach the point where the verbal harrasment of a woman, by a stalker, needs to be evaluated for the effect, which it will have on the woman. My view is that David Irving has crossed a similar line. It appears to be the view of the Austrian court too. Irving has essentially told the Austrians that their law stinks. They ignored it once. This was not possible when he returned. |
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28 Feb 06 - 07:32 PM (#1681713) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Big Al Whittle how dangerous does a thought have to be before you understand that we need protection from it. this is a man with no love for our ideals of freedom and decency, with no reverence for the blood sacrifice of our parents generation. in every society there are those who try to legitimise their hatred for their fellow man with some excuse. sometimes it is just hurtful, like thatcher pretending that all those people she took jobs away from, somehow deserved their years of poverty and societal neglect. the people that irving stands up for, are many leagues beyond that. don't give them anything. not a kind thought, not a word of compassion and never pretend they have a right to occupy a legitimate status in any human encampment on the face of the planet. |
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28 Feb 06 - 09:50 PM (#1681820) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Fooles Troupe Peter, The direct quote is from above in this thread. |
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01 Mar 06 - 04:32 AM (#1681986) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: gecko Heard on Australian ABC Radio National this morning - "David Irving deserves to languish in the obscurity he so richly deserves" Beautifully put! YIU gecko |
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01 Mar 06 - 05:34 AM (#1682011) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,UK poll: 15% say Holocaust exaggerated http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FF6C9D1-33E8-4635-94BC-AFAFD9B29BB3.htm 15% is a lot. and as much as that pains me to see those figures, that tells me that indeed it is 'wrong' to imprison Irving for having an opinion. I fear that here we are, many of us completely agreeing to the imprisonment of a man because we find his opinion repulsive? Gallileo springs to mind? And before people say, there is no comparison, in retrospect maybe not, but retrospect is an easy thing centuries down the line, and although i don't like irvings opinion, i say shame on us, myself also in the past, who would want a a man behind bars for speaking his MIND, not our mind, his mind. There was a time when the circles we all love to participate in was the bastion of freedom, i fear that the way we are going, the right in the UK will make ever more strides. I was in my local the other day and i listened to a conversation by some fellow folkies discussing that Nick Griffin was a freedom-fighter! Scoff if you wish, though i hope i hear some reasoned response to this, and not mere bashing, which again, is driving people to the right. If irvings opinions roughly have 15% vague support, how can we, condemn that whole section of society? More and more the left is bashing the little guy. I see a thread on here, now closed, about Billy Bragg wanting a CD stopped. I went to se Billy years ago, he was great, i was young and felt he was the defender of traditional freedoms etc, but although i hate the BNP, now he talks about stopping their cd's and beating them up. I am a man of peace, and i fight the right with my words every time the occasion is there. Of course i fear that my post will only result in me recieving a bashing, which if the case, shows how intolerant this place has now become too. By the way, i am a member here, but for obvious reasons, i don't want the next folk gathering in my area to be about my 'holocaust denial' as it may be evily intepretated. Love and respect to you ALL, |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:34 AM (#1682048) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) Guest UK Poll, it is that 15 per cent that's got people like weelittledrummer and gecko so frightened. They lack the courage of their own convictions and fear Irving's views will win the day. Hence rather than argue with him, they have to lock him up. And truth be told, they'd throw away the key, because they can't cope with the thought that he will one day be free to resume his preaching. Against the Lipstadts of this world, they are wee little people indeed. I'm not sure where Giok was going with his last post, but he did make the intelligent point that in many situations prison is inappropriate and counterproductive. As a former prison governor said on BBC TV (Newsnight) last night, prison should be a recourse only where it is necesary to protect the public. We don't need to be protected from unpalatable thoughts and ideas, however vociferously they may be expressed. Alanabit raised an interesting point about verbal abuse in relation to free speech. I don't believe free speech should legitimise verbal abuse, but I can see that there's a very uncertain boundary between the two. I suppose I'd be content to let a jury decide when words amount to assault on an individual or individuals. |
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01 Mar 06 - 07:28 AM (#1682078) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie So has it now become, when in Rome, get them to change the rules to suit you? Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:48 AM (#1682233) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,stevenrailing No, but are you saying as a human we can not critisize individual nations laws? As a member of the human race, if there is injustice, why should it be governed by boundary of nation. |
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01 Mar 06 - 11:22 AM (#1682311) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit Of course we can criticise a country's laws. Indeed Peter has argued persuasively that Austria's law is unnecessary and counter productive. There are advantages as well as disadvantages to being governed by the boundaries of a nation. Nobody claims that absolute human justice is available. However, by invoking my British citizenship, I can effectively evade (say)Saudi Arabian judicial penalties if they take exception to my religious views. Had Mr. Irving exercised his "rights" with a little more prudence, he would not currently be enjoying the hospitality of the Austrian government. |
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01 Mar 06 - 11:29 AM (#1682324) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie I would suggest that the governments of both the UK and the US are so scared of offending Saudi Arabia that they would extradite you back there to face a charge of dropping litter! Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 11:30 AM (#1682325) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace 1) The Holocaust happened. 2) It is against the law in Austria to say it did NOT happen. 3) He broke the law. 4) |
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01 Mar 06 - 12:09 PM (#1682355) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,stevenrailing well it is my sincere opinion peace that it is an unjust law. The issue of whether or not the holocaust happened, which i agree it certainly did, is not at hand here, at hand is whether or not this is a good law? It is all well and good speaking in formalities like above, 1,2,3 when it suits our political opinions to be outraged by irvings belief, but if say one of our folk musicians on here played a gig in Iran and was imprisoned, would you be so formal and pro-law? |
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01 Mar 06 - 12:36 PM (#1682386) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit Singing drinking songs in Iran might show a clear commitment to a certain folk culture. It would also be an act of crass insensitivity and rudeness to the local population. No, there should not be a law to outlaw the singing of those songs. If someone is stupid enough to go and provoke the locals anywhere, they must expect to face the consequences. There is no necessity for anyone to sing about the glories of drinking beer among Muslims. I don't think you would find much sympathy for an idiot,who did that,on Mudcat. |
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01 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM (#1682411) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie Which in a nutshell is what Irving did in Austria, he was rude and disrespectful, and he was being intentionally provocative. I don't know how old the people are on this thread but I suggest that only the more advanced in years like myself will understand why this law was put in place in Austria. Not being patronising just a thought. Look how in the UK they still make jokes and films etc about the Nazis, it is a folk memory, and in Austria with their history it must be even worse. Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 01:37 PM (#1682421) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,stevenrailing There is no necessity for anyone to sing about the glories of drinking beer among Muslims. I don't think you would find much sympathy for an idiot,who did that,on Mudcat. And what if some iranians wanted to hear folk music? Which in a nutshell is what Irving did in Austria, he was rude and disrespectful, and he was being intentionally provocative. I'm rude and disrespectful everyday. Should i face imprisonment? |
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01 Mar 06 - 01:41 PM (#1682426) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Emma B It's NOT about "rude and disrespectful" It's not even about holding offensive opinions It's about deliberately entering another country with the sole purpose of breaking their laws! |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:14 PM (#1682441) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace Kid gets caught with a gram of hashish in Canada he/she's looking at a fine and maybe some community for a first offense. Same kid does the same thing in another country and he/she faces ten to twenty years--or maybe the death penalty. Is the law right? If it isn't then whose law is the wrong one? If I were to travel in Turkey I would not care to have a toke or two because the penalties are severe. In Canada, that isn't the case. But then I know Canadian law will not put me in the slam for a decade or more. So, steve, I know where you're coming from, but then Irving knew what he was doing, too. |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:27 PM (#1682459) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie You know very well that my comment was based on one country and one incident daverailing, so twisting my words to make it seem like it is equally applicable in all scenarios is not valid. Why do YOU feel the need to be rude and disrespectfull every day? Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:28 PM (#1682464) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peter K (Fionn) It doesn't advance the argument of those who are holding out against free speech that one or two people have drawn a ludicrous equivalence between Austria and islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. I would hope and expect the UK government to intercede on behalf of any British national who was about to be (say) beheaded for proselytising Christianity in one of those countries. Though in the case of Saudi Arabia I wouldn't hold my breath - I agree completely with Giok on that point. Emma, my understanding was that Irving accepted invitations from right-wing scum to go and address their meetings. No doubt he knew that what he would say would break the law, but that doesn't mean he went with the sole purpose of breaking the law. The particular law in question, wherever it came from - and I no longer accept Wolfgang's suggestion that it was imposed by the Allies - stinks. It will be ironic indeed if the Irving case persuades them to reconsider it, but I think that is becoming a real possibility. |
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01 Mar 06 - 04:19 PM (#1682591) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Emma B "my understanding was that Irving accepted invitations from right-wing scum to go and address their meetings. No doubt he knew that what he would say would break the law" I think that is what I said! |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:19 PM (#1682655) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,stevenrailing Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John 'Giok' MacKenzie Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:27 PM You know very well that my comment was based on one country and one incident daverailing, so twisting my words to make it seem like it is equally applicable in all scenarios is not valid. Why do YOU feel the need to be rude and disrespectfull every day? Giok I don't feel the need to be rude, i just know that i often am. Should i be imprisoned? It is a sad day when we accept a law simply because it suits our political beliefs. Irving broke that law in 1988 i believe, which is a LONG time back. As a member of the human race i govern my own morality and not individual nations, not to say i don't respect them, but if i see injustice, i will speak out. Austria in this instance has a tyrannical law. A law that says to have an opinion on an historical event is illegal. His opinions are evil and repulsive, but equally as evil is the law that prevents him his right to his opinions. Peace, i saw you deliberetly called me daverailing, and you clearly were trying to make comparisons with the BNP man on here. Fuck off, if you can't make a point with resorting to personal attacks then you are clearly not as intelligant a person as i previously thought. No doubt it is open season on me for that remark. |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:28 PM (#1682663) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace Steve: that was not my intent at all. In fact, I complimented your choice of title and the placement of it in BS on that BNP thread. If I called you daverailing on that or any other thread, accept my apologies. It was a mistake. Believe that or not, as you choose. |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:33 PM (#1682664) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace "You know very well that my comment was based on one country and one incident daverailing" That was posted by my friend, Giok, not by ME. If indeed that's the post to which you refer when you told me: "Peace, i saw you deliberetly called me daverailing, and you clearly were trying to make comparisons with the BNP man on here. Fuck off, if you can't make a point with resorting to personal attacks then you are clearly not as intelligant a person as i previously thought. No doubt it is open season on me for that remark." |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:34 PM (#1682666) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace That was 100 BTW. |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:48 PM (#1682675) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie Sorry Steve that was a total Freudian slip on my part I did it and I apologise, it was unintentional. Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 07:02 PM (#1682688) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace Giok's Scottish. They wear Freudian slips under their kilts. |
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01 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM (#1682709) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Big Al Whittle well if you aren't frightened of Nazis, Peter - maybe YOU missed something. and perhaps I'm a wee little soul compared to your lofty ideals of freedom - but my Dad spent five years in a tank sorting out the mess caused by the last load of people who thought that nazis are a phenomena that could be tolerated. And that made him one of the lucky ones, cos a hell of a lot of really nice people got killed - just sorting out the shit that happens when people pretend that nazism is an essential part of the spectrum of opinions that needs representation - like life is some sort of college debate. This is the real world and look what happened the last time those mad dogs got loose. And any bugger who is confident that the correct opinions will win the day is a stupid bugger in my book, and obviously has never read a newspaper. what's the next thing.... freedom of polio bacteria to flourish and set up their own communities? Freedom of shit to float in the water supply..... |
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01 Mar 06 - 07:47 PM (#1682726) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST what's the next thing.... freedom of polio bacteria to flourish and set up their own communities? Freedom of shit to float in the water supply..... Well they can't be compared to the human situation. Although at times it feels like they can... |
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01 Mar 06 - 07:48 PM (#1682727) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace "shit that happens when people pretend that nazism is an essential part of the spectrum of opinions that needs representation" Just wanted to ensure that that gets read. |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:14 PM (#1682799) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: The Fooles Troupe Peace - it must never be forgotten, neither must the consequences, or we will go thru it all again. |
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02 Mar 06 - 03:20 AM (#1682993) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Big Al Whittle I think the problem with Nazism is this. It doesn't need to win arguments. When it gets any kind of presence - not even a significant presence in democratic election terms -it causes a strange sort of trouble. It gives people an excuse to behave badly. And once it starts, then people who never even knew they wanted to behave badly locate that zeitgeist within themselves. Sudddenly all the things like sadism and racial hatred, that are probably lurking deep within us all - they get a chance to come to the surface. its just really f---ing bad stuff, and presents a unique threat human society at our present stage of development. |
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02 Mar 06 - 04:09 AM (#1683014) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie I believe it was the philosopher George Santayana who said......... Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. I am also reminded of the words of Neville Chamberlain when he came back from Munich after talks with Adolf Hitler, and securing the 1938 Munich agreement later described as a policy of appeasement. He said something to the effect that he had in his hand a piece of paper signed by Herr Hitler, guaranteeing peace in out time. Oh how we laughed! Giok |
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02 Mar 06 - 05:05 AM (#1683029) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,stevenrailing yes but equally we could say the purge of gulags should not be repeated? Of course, but would we, on here, really agree to imprisoning a man who said the purge of gulags never occured? Peace, understood, my apologies in turn for my rather sharp response. |
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02 Mar 06 - 05:30 AM (#1683037) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: alanabit Good point Steve, but it is possible for people to delude themselves about the Gulags, however unreasonable that might seem. (I don't think it is reasonable either). However, it is barely credible that any adult can have failed to receive some information about the Holocaust. There simply is not any excuse for pretending that it did not happen. The other issue, is the fact that although the Stalinist agenda has effectively gone the way of the dodo, the Nazi ideal is very much alive and kicking (and literally handing out kickings) in many parts of Europe. I would say that what I am debating with you and Peter K, is whether we can draw a line between freedom of speech and the abuse of it to to try to make blatant untruths acceptable. It is not an easy one to call. I am leaning towards those who wish to draw a line. To the credit of Peter and yourself, you wish to guarantee absolute freedom of speech to even those, whom you detest. That is fair enough. Now we are on the thorny issue of whether the absolute right to free speech also guarantees the absolute right to scream lies. The debate is still open. |
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02 Mar 06 - 05:51 AM (#1683050) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: freda underhill are you sure it wasn't a Fredian slip Giok? :-) |
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02 Mar 06 - 10:28 AM (#1683243) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace No problem, steve. BTW, Giok is a really good guy. "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." The best 'response I ever hear to that line: "History repeats itself because historians repeat each other." |
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02 Mar 06 - 12:44 PM (#1683360) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Wolfgang equally we could say the purge of gulags should not be repeated? Of course, but would we, on here, really agree to imprisoning a man who said the purge of gulags never occured? (stevenrailing) Others have made similar points, just as wrong in my eyes. This argumentation disregards the context. If one looks at this and similar laws one sees that they tend be passed in the countries in which such crimes have happened and in which the survivors are still haunted by the worst of memories. Guess which is the only country in the world in which denying the genocide of the Tutsi is forbidden by law. Rwanda, of course. Such laws in those countries that have seen the atrocities and have still survivors make more sense than in unrelated countries for two reasons: (1) To prevent the events happening again and (2) to protect the feelings of the survivors. If someone in Germany would deny that the arrival of the Whites in America has led to a decline of the indigenous populations of a genocidal dimension, he would be considered an idiot but not put in jail. Neither a repetition in Germany nor a slight of the survivors' feelings is to be feared. To those living in countries in which the holocaust did not happen, this may be just another of many genocides. I even can see that when I try to view it from your point. But for us it feels completely different. It was the genocide of/by our fathers' generation. In fifty years from now, we can scrap that law. Until then it will stay. Wolfgang |
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03 Mar 06 - 03:45 AM (#1684085) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,stevenrailing In fifty years from now, we can scrap that law. Until then it will stay. You see, this remark is the type that baffles me. No offence. Why fifty years? Why set a time-span for this unique law? Out of respect for that generation? Is that how laws are determined? That same generation fought for freedom, and yet in their defence, that freedom has now corroded with recent events, irving included. |
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04 Mar 06 - 12:10 PM (#1685079) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Wolfgang Why fifty? Because in fifty years the youngest survivor with a memory of what has happened will be 114 years old. Wolfgang |
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04 Mar 06 - 03:40 PM (#1685171) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,stevenrailing oh right. thats a very odd way of working a law out. |
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04 Mar 06 - 04:23 PM (#1685198) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: John MacKenzie It bears more relevance to actual people than many laws in existence now with no 'sell by' date, which will still exist in many years time steven. Giok |
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05 Mar 06 - 01:48 PM (#1685739) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Wolfgang thats a very odd way of working a law out (stevenrailing) In my eyes, it would be odd to make laws without any regard for the context. After the war, we had also a special law passed to integrate the invalids into the work force (and some more war invalid laws). There were lots of people with one limb missing, more than usually in a country. That law too has been adapted later when the situation had changed (i.e. youngest war invalids older than retirement age). Wolfgang |
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05 Mar 06 - 02:27 PM (#1685766) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Roughyed Let's not forget Irving's own commitment to free speech - suing someone for libel when they correctly described him as a Holocaust denier. Hoist by his own petard, I'd say. |
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06 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM (#1686393) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: GUEST,clogger The only problem with that law is that it may have the opposite effect to the reason it was made. You can just immagine, in the depths of the BMP recruitment department, the conversation going something like this..... " Now then dont get me wrong, it was a war an' like bad things are done. But dont forget winners write the history. And we arnt sure it happend anyway.... oh I know everyone says it did but there are some historins who dont think that it did, and they were forced to shut up! I mean just look at what happend to that David Irvine! He ended up in jail just for saying he was not sure! I mean the bastards arer controlling you. You can't even express your own opinion in your own country any more." |
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06 Mar 06 - 10:25 AM (#1686397) Subject: RE: BS: David Irving goes to prison. From: Peace Irving perverted and distorted history to serve a twisted ideology. He will now serve some time in the name of that twisted ideology. However, he is not a martyr except to a few fringe folks, because it's difficult to design a picture frame for hatred, stupidity and ignorance. |