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01 Mar 06 - 11:21 AM (#1682309) Subject: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Pied Piper I say it's worth a try as long as they renounce terrorism. PP |
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01 Mar 06 - 11:33 AM (#1682331) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie The only reason that this government want 16 YOs to have the vote, is because they know that they will benefit more than any other party. I quote the old truism..... "If a man is not a socialist by the time he's 20, he has no heart. If he's still a socialist when he's 40, he has no mind." Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 12:33 PM (#1682381) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Dave (the ancient mariner) 16 year olds are still very impressionable and could be heavily influenced by outside sources. I think 18 is a reasonable age to start voting. They will have more analytical experience and social awarenes by age 18. With more education and exposure to international affairs in the news and high school debates, a hightened ability to make a more independant judgement of issues. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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01 Mar 06 - 12:38 PM (#1682389) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Cluin Teenagers are insane. Their minds cannot physically comprehend shades of grey, philosophically speaking because they haven't finished developing yet. So yes, give them the vote. Every other idiot out there has it. |
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01 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM (#1682410) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Bobert I think that any kid old enough to recruit should be old enough to vote... |
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01 Mar 06 - 01:25 PM (#1682412) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie Then it's the recruiting that's wrong not the age of emancipation Bobert. Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 01:34 PM (#1682418) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: kendall Hell no! The friggin' adults are bad enough! |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:04 PM (#1682433) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: cool hand Tom I Didnt really know my politics till at least 28.Id say 18 is too young. Just my farthings worth. Regards Tom. |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:26 PM (#1682457) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Clinton Hammond I say we don't let anyone OLDER than 16 vote.... |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:29 PM (#1682469) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie There are lots of people way over 16 with an intelligence way under, but that's not a valid reason to lower the age. It would be more important to encourage those who do not use their franchise to do so, and sensibly. Giok |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:14 PM (#1682651) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Amos God, no. A |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:24 PM (#1682661) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Little Hawk "as long as they renounce terrorism" Ha! EVERYONE renounces terrorism. Just ask 'em. (When they kill people and blow things up, it's not terrorism...just remember that...it's something noble that has been forced upon them BY the real terrorists. It's legitimate self-defence. No one supports what they honestly believe is terrorism.) I think Clinton's got an interesting idea there, but didn't Mao already try it out in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution? Or was it in the Great Leap Backward? |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:51 PM (#1682679) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Cluin "Nothing can change the shape of things to come." |
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01 Mar 06 - 08:56 PM (#1682785) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: The Fooles Troupe The vote - where it was a 'democratic process' was give to those aged 21. The push for 18 year olds to vote started due to the military lust of Governments. If 18 year olds were suitable to draft and be killed for their country, ran the argument, they were old (mature, etc) enough to vote. No Government was prepared to stop compulsorily drafting 18 year olds, so now they have the vote, and pretty much most of the other 'privileges of adulthood', such as drinking legally. The problem is that if they only drafted 21 year olds and over, it meant disrupting university study, careers, etc. The electoral fallout would have been devastating among the more mature voters - many also may have been married, and so that was 2 votes lost... As for those younger, we would charge headlong even faster into the highly destructive political path the world took in the 1930's. And with the USA now producing 'micro nukes' deliberately intended to be used as 'bunker busters', etc, the madness of 'The Cold War' will seem mild. "Duck and Cover", indeed! |
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01 Mar 06 - 08:58 PM (#1682789) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: The Fooles Troupe Cluin, "Nothing can change the shape of things to come." That does seem right, but remember that things like Apartheid would still exist if your expressed philosophy above was totally believed by everybody. |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:31 PM (#1682811) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Little Hawk The shape of things to come, in that case, was the end of Apartheid. It was inevitable, as was the end of slavery. That doesn't mean that no one needed to fight for them, however. The fighting is part of the ongoing process of change. |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:45 PM (#1682830) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: The Fooles Troupe It was only inevitable if people DID fight for it. Slavery still exists in many parts of the world under many names. |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:55 PM (#1682840) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Cluin "...the shape of things to come" is a reference from the 1960's move Wild in the Streets which dealt with the youth vote issue in a strange way. A 22 year old rock star, who sings the quoted lyric, becomes a senator then lobbies congress to reduce the voting age to 14. The upshot is, everybody over 30 gets shipped off to LaLaLand. |
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02 Mar 06 - 04:04 AM (#1683012) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Paul Burke Reduce the voting age to 11. Increase the age of consent to 65. End of problem. |
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02 Mar 06 - 05:04 AM (#1683028) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Paco Rabanne No. What a bloody silly idea. |
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02 Mar 06 - 12:35 PM (#1683351) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Mrs.Duck I'm not happy with 18 year old voting when they can't even hold a conversation! Now 12 year old are a different matter but take away the vote between 13 and 21. |
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02 Mar 06 - 12:56 PM (#1683368) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Clinton Hammond "everybody over 30 gets shipped off to LaLaLand." REENEEEW! REEENEEEEWWW!!! |
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02 Mar 06 - 01:17 PM (#1683385) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Cluin It wasn't that bad (like Logan's Run). They just made them retire and have to drop acid. |
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02 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM (#1683393) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it Giok |
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02 Mar 06 - 05:37 PM (#1683584) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Richard Bridge They are affected by governments, so why not vice versa? |
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02 Mar 06 - 05:51 PM (#1683605) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Little Hawk Foolestroupe, it was inevitable that people WOULD fight against slavery! ;-) I mean, hell, Spartacus did, didn't he? People have been fighting against slavery ever since it first began, and they will always fight against it... People will always fight against any and all forms of institutionalized inequality, because the soul detests enforced inequality above all else. They did experiments with monkeys, giving better rewards to some than to others for performing the same tasks. The ones who got the poorer rewards got mad, went on strike, and wouldn't do anything at all after awhile. They also got in fights with the better rewarded monkeys. Same principle. The monkeys did not like enforced inequality. They recognized that it was "not fair". It is inevitable that such unfair systems will meet resistance, and the resistance will eventually change or end the system. |
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02 Mar 06 - 05:58 PM (#1683612) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie People also resent natural inequality not just the imposed variety, the rich resent the poor and the poor resent the rich, and in the UK the Labour Party has been exploiting this by indulging in the politics of envy, otherwise known as Socialism, for many years. That in itself is a good enough reason for 16 YOs not to be given the vote. Giok |
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02 Mar 06 - 06:15 PM (#1683631) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Little Hawk Yes, people do resent natural inequality. No doubt about it. It's unfortunate, but they do. |
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03 Mar 06 - 03:48 AM (#1684088) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Paul Burke "The politics of envy"- you've been reading the Torygraph too much. I suppose the politics of envy are worse than the politics of gluttony, lust, anger, pride, avarice and sloth, or any of the other Seven Deadly Firemen. |
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03 Mar 06 - 04:33 AM (#1684118) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie Should one read the Labour supporting,[for their own ends], red top rags with the tits on page 3 in order to get their news? If they want news of Beyonce and the characters in the soaps yes. If the only papers that carry any intelligent articles are mainly right leaning politically, then it is up to the intelligent reader to detect any political bias and dismiss it. Bias is in the mind of the beholder in most cases. Giok |
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03 Mar 06 - 04:37 AM (#1684119) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Paul Burke So you do read the Torygraph then. There are other papers. |
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03 Mar 06 - 04:59 AM (#1684136) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: George Papavgeris Non. Neither should politicians be allowed to stand for election. If they want to be elected, that by itself should disqualify them. Public office should be a duty, not a reward. |
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03 Mar 06 - 05:07 AM (#1684143) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie I do read the Daily Telegraph on a Saturday which is the only day I buy a newspaper. It has about 10 sections half of which I don't read, the rest keeps me amused for at least 3 days. We do the crosswords and we laugh at the letters to the editor, we spread the paper on the floor at night for our old incontinent dog to pee on, which I suspect you may agree with Paul☺ I vote Scottish nationalist and I have no idea how my partner votes as it is none of my business. So characterising a paper as being read by people who vote a certain way is at best an iffy pastime. Giok |
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03 Mar 06 - 06:11 AM (#1684177) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Paul Burke No, I was characterising YOU as reading the paper, not the paper as being read by you... |
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03 Mar 06 - 06:20 AM (#1684181) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Purple Foxx Not a Tory either,but many people think that the Torygraph gives the best coverage of scientific issues. BTW John, if you like crosswords try "The War Cry" sometime. One Across -"Son of God"(5) Toughie! |
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03 Mar 06 - 06:59 AM (#1684204) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: GUEST No Way at 16. They know nothing yet. I think we give people the vote far too easily. it should be something studied for like the driving test and an exam should be taken to prove you have the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision as to how you wish to vote. Having the vote should become a badge of citizenship that has to be earned. You want a say in how things run? Then show an interest and acquire the knowledge. The fact that some dumb, game playing, fashion obsessed, glotal stopped,Sun reading, alcoholic,Soap obsessed, teenager can cancel out my vote by just turning up at the booth makes me mad! |
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03 Mar 06 - 07:17 AM (#1684220) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie Guest there are two Ts in glo'al ! Giok |
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03 Mar 06 - 07:30 AM (#1684230) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: tarheel The one BIG reason i cherish my Freedom in the good ole USA, is the I VOTE and I PAY TAXES.... so far,the 16 year olds in this country do neither!!!! if they are old enought to VOTE,then they should be old enough to PAY their fair share of TAXES,too!!! tar... |
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03 Mar 06 - 08:07 AM (#1684248) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: kendall In ancient times, people didn't live much past 40, so by the time a boy was 18 he was considered to be an adult, having reached the "Age of majority". However, when it came to inheritance, all that legal gobbldegoook took about three years to get ironed out, so by then he is 21. It all means very little these days. |
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03 Mar 06 - 08:14 AM (#1684255) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Paul Burke In ancient times, kendall, no one had the vote. And most people had no property either. |
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03 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM (#1684273) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: GUEST I know Giok..couldn't resist it! |
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03 Mar 06 - 09:41 AM (#1684334) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: GUEST,Van Tarheel - surely if a 16 year old earns enough they pay taxes - they do in the UK. The way I see it from recent elections the turnout is steadily diminishing and and our glorious leaders have started to thrash around for anyone who can hold a pencil and make a mark to give their positions some sort of credibility. (plus if they move to computer voting only those aged 16 and under will be able to fathom out how to it.) |
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03 Mar 06 - 12:54 PM (#1684415) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: kendall Paul, you miss my point. It wasn't about voting. |
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03 Mar 06 - 12:58 PM (#1684418) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie Don't worry Kendall my post about who reads what newspaper wasn't aimed at anybody either. Giok |
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03 Mar 06 - 01:46 PM (#1684455) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Cluin ..."The fact that some dumb, game playing, fashion obsessed, glotal stopped,Sun reading, alcoholic,Soap obsessed, teenager can cancel out my vote by just turning up at the booth makes me mad!" Chill out then because they won't even show up. The younger voters are the most under-represented in elections. Their own fault. Apathy about voting causes many to just not bother. |
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03 Mar 06 - 08:33 PM (#1684671) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: The Fooles Troupe "Chill out then because they won't even show up." In Australia, voting has been compulsory since the 1920's. Little Johnny is trying to make voting non-compulsory now too - just like his bum buddy George... Hmmmmm, is that 'bum buddy' or 'bum' buddy... |
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04 Mar 06 - 06:28 AM (#1684891) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Teribus IMO No they should not. Foolestroupe, just a slight correction to your post of 01 Mar 06 - 08:56 PM, in which you state "...with the USA now producing 'micro nukes' deliberately intended to be used as 'bunker busters', etc, the madness of 'The Cold War' will seem mild." What is your source for that? As far as I am aware the project to develop a nuclear version of the conventional 'bunker buster' was cancelled ages ago. |
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04 Mar 06 - 08:22 AM (#1684958) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: kendall I've always thought that mandatory voting was a good idea, but when I read complaints from OZ, I have to wonder. |
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04 Mar 06 - 09:36 AM (#1684990) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: freda underhill It's a very good idea and most people in oz vote, and get fined if they dont. We don't have large portions of the population who dont vote. even the poorest people have a right to vote. |
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04 Mar 06 - 10:09 AM (#1685011) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie Compulsory voting is the way to go, but with one proviso, there should be a last box to tick on every ballot paper that says "None of the above" If the result is that more ticks are put in that box than in any other, then the contest should be re-run with different candidates. Now that would give people a place to express their distaste for a particular politician or party, and save them having to vote for an opposition party as the only protest vote available to them. It would work for me! Giok |
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04 Mar 06 - 09:20 PM (#1685326) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: The Fooles Troupe I'll pay that one. it allows for an 'abstain' vote without voting 'informal' - where you write in 'Mickey Mouse' or scribble obscenities on the paper... |
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04 Mar 06 - 11:57 PM (#1685376) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Peace I think it would be a good idea to have every person who is going to vote be able to pass a test wherein they demonstrate a basic understanding of the country's laws, government structure, etc. The test could be given in written, oral or sign language form. |
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05 Mar 06 - 03:42 AM (#1685413) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: The Fooles Troupe In some countries with a lower level of reading and written literacy, they use ballot papers with pictures on them. You wanna vote for yer elephant or yer ass? |
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05 Mar 06 - 05:35 PM (#1685935) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Big Al Whittle nothing to worry about till the cast of neighbours form a political party..... |
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06 Mar 06 - 06:33 AM (#1686294) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: GUEST 16 year olds are only thinking of one thing and it aint politics |
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06 Mar 06 - 09:39 AM (#1686377) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: JohnInKansas A minor observation for tarheel: I VOTE and I PAY TAXES.... so far,the 16 year olds in this country do neither!!!! The first year in which I paid US Federal Income Taxes I was barely 13. And I'd had to file my return the previous year, and paid Social Security taxes both years. Although I don't have the records for him, I believe my son filed his first Income Tax return at 13 or 14, but was probably 15 or so before he made enough to actually pay income tax. He very definitely started paying into Social Security before he turned 15. Neither of us particularly felt the need to vote at such ages though, and I agree with what I sense as the prevailing opinion here that 16 is seldom a sufficiently mature age for doing so. Im not sure that at 18 people are generally prepared to consider issues and vote rationally, but by then most of the ones that aren't probably never will be. John |
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06 Mar 06 - 11:37 AM (#1686442) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Joe Offer There is a 16-yr-old boy living in this house. On good days, I acknowledge him as my stepson. He thinks he knows everything, except how to do chores. Does thinking you know everything qualify you to vote? Right now, we're negotiating to receive physical labor and a modicum of responsibility, in exchange for occasional use of the car. Negotiations are not going well. We're losing. Despite all that, I kinda like the kid - but I can hardly wait until he grows into a civilized adult, like my kids are.... -Joe- |
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06 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM (#1686535) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Richard Bridge This is very like the arguments about the abolition of the property qualification to vote, the abolition of the university votes, and votes for women, you know. A bit like the rights of "inferior races" to vote. I think we all know how we feel and how we ought to feel about them. |
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06 Mar 06 - 10:15 PM (#1686921) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: The Fooles Troupe But none of them caused the complete collapse of Society... |
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07 Mar 06 - 05:37 AM (#1687063) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie For Joe Offer "Well, my mom and papa told me Now you better earn some money If you wanna use the car to go Ridin' next Sunday Well, I didn't go to work I told my boss I was sick He said, "You can't use the car 'Cause you didn't work a lick" Summertime Blues...Eddie Cochrane Giok |
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07 Mar 06 - 06:59 AM (#1687105) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: GUEST yes they should I mean they are old enough to get killed so they should be able to vote. |
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07 Mar 06 - 07:21 AM (#1687129) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: John MacKenzie 16 years olds may join with parental consent, but don't get sent on active service at that age. Giok |
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07 Mar 06 - 08:55 AM (#1687216) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Essex Girl I don't think it makes a lot of difference what age you can vote at. School children (and that's what the government is striving to make all under 18's) have a lot more to think about than which bunch of hypocrites is better than another. My son (17) is beginning to get interested in politics, mainly because he is studying economics, but when asked about the vote said he wouldn't bother anyway. |
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07 Mar 06 - 08:36 PM (#1687883) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: kendall What does being old enough to get killed have to do with voting? They are not even remotely related. |
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07 Mar 06 - 08:39 PM (#1687889) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Bee-dubya-ell No. Politicians spend most of their time screwing the people who voted for them. Sixteen-year-olds aren't legally old enough to be screwed. So, if they were allowed to vote all those politicians would be guilty of statutory rape. |
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07 Mar 06 - 08:41 PM (#1687892) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Cluin "What does being old enough to get killed have to do with voting? They are not even remotely related." Yeah, one actually means something. |
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08 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM (#1688461) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: GUEST,Janine Watch the hidden agenda! When the age of majority was lowered from 21 to 18, 'Great said the 18 year olds: we can marry without parental consent, vote and do lots of other things'. Including having parties at 18 and 21 as well!' 'But now you have to pay for all things at 18 which were free before till 21,'says the government. Expect similar. Janine |
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08 Mar 06 - 03:20 PM (#1688482) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: McGrath of Harlow There's something to be said for putting off the voting age a few years, to give a chance for people to build-up a bit of pent-up frustration about being messed around with by government, so that when they get tghe vote they see that as more significant. Forty might be about right. And that stuff about how people inevitably move to the right as they get older is questionable. In the British political scene older Labour people tend to be well to the left of where the party has got to these days. Hence Old Labour, New Labour. I rather suspect the same would apply with Democrats in the States, especially if you set on one side the essentially non-political cultural matters that are given prominence over hard-core political issues. |
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08 Mar 06 - 05:51 PM (#1688612) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: Joe Offer "What does being old enough to get killed have to do with voting? They are not even remotely related." Well, I think the idea is, voting is supposed to give the teenage boys the illusion that they have something to say about whether they go to war or not... Perhaps a better idea would be to let kids be kids and not allow them to vote until they're 21, and follow Malvina's suggestion and send the Gentlemen of Distinction to the Army. -Joe- |
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08 Mar 06 - 07:29 PM (#1688663) Subject: RE: BS: Should 16 year olds get the vote From: autolycus Whatever the age limit (and I like Mrs. Duck's not between 13 and 21, was it?) vote should be weighed, not counted. Ivor |