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01 Mar 06 - 03:21 PM (#1682545) Subject: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Clinton Hammond C&P from The Chicao Trib. Slapping on a coat of silence Company says its high-tech paint will block cell phone calls By Jon Van Tribune staff reporter March 1, 2006, 12:05 AM CST The intrusion of cellular phone rings into theaters, schools and nearly every other nook and cranny of modern life may soon hit a wall. Playing to the backlash against ubiquitous communication, a company called NaturalNano is developing a special high-tech paint that relies on the wizardry of nanotechnology to create a system that locks out unwanted cell phone signals on demand. The paint represents a dream to those who seek a distraction-free movie or concert experience, and a nightmare to those who compulsively monitor their BlackBerry phones. It is also another breakthrough application of nanotechnology, the emerging science of harnessing sub-microscopic organisms for everyday uses, like stain-resistant pants and transparent sunblock. The National Science Foundation has predicted that nanotechnology eventually will be a trillion-dollar industry. "You could use this in a concert hall, allowing cell phones to work before the concert and during breaks, but shutting them down during the performance," said Michael Riedlinger, president of NaturalNano of Rochester, N.Y. His firm has found a way to use nanotechnology to blend particles of copper into paint that can be brushed onto walls and effectively deflect radio signals. The copper is inserted into nanotubes, which are ultra-tiny tubes that occur naturally in halloysite clay mined in Utah. The nanotubes are about 20,000 times thinner than a piece of paper, too small to be seen with even a conventional microscope. At this size, which is near the molecular scale, materials have different physical properties than they normally do. By filling these tubes with nano-particles of copper, the company can create a medium to suspend the signal-blocking metal throughout a can of paint without significantly changing the way the paint adheres to a surface. NaturalNano will combine this signal-blocking paint scheme with a radio-filtering device that collects phone signals from outside a shielded space, allowing certain transmissions to proceed while blocking others. Wireless chill Even the thought of such a thing upsets the wireless phone industry. "We oppose any kind of blocking technology," said Joe Farren, spokesman for The Wireless Association, the leading cell phone trade group. "What about the young parents whose baby-sitter is trying to call them, or the brain surgeon who needs notification of emergency surgery? These calls need to get through." Farren said that any scheme to selectively block calls is illegal. But Robert Crowley of AMBIT Corp., which designed the radio filtering device for NaturalNano, said the system is legal. The nanotech-augmented paint that blocks signals is a passive device, not an illegal radio jammer, he said. The radio filter would allow all emergency radio communications to pass through the shield, Crowley said. With all other signals, like cell phones, the filter would act like a spigot to block or allow them to pass through—say, only during intermission. "There'd be no limitation of public service radio access," he said. Crowley said there's a lot of pent-up demand for people to have more control of the radio space in their own buildings. His Ashland, Mass.-based firm, which develops equipment to enhance cell phone reception inside moving vehicles, often hears from such people. "Our No. 1 request comes from churches," he said. "Pastors want a way to stop cell phones ringing in church and people taking calls during worship services." Schools seek control School administrators would also want to keep students from taking cell phone calls or sending text messages to one another during class, he said. Most schools ban cell phone use in class, but administrators would like more control over wireless traffic. Bill Smith, director of instructional support services for Sioux Falls, S.D., schools said his district is interested in NaturalNano's signal-blocking paint because administrators are worried about what would happen in the event of an emergency in a school. "During a crisis, students using cell phones would overwhelm the system, making it impossible for administrators to use cell phones to call authorities," Smith said. "I don't know if there's a way to manage that." Smith said students are allowed to have phones in their backpacks or lockers, but if they use a phone during class, the device is confiscated and their parents are called. "That works pretty well," Smith said. "Whether we'd want to install a system to add further control would really depend on how much it cost. We run a pretty austere system." Jamming illegal Even though they're illegal, jamming devices that emit radio signals to prevent cell phones from working are widely available, said Tim Kridel, a wireless industry analyst. "You can find plenty of jammers on the Internet that are shipped from other countries," said Kridel. "But using them risks getting into trouble with the Federal Communications Commission." Farren, the wireless industry spokesman, said that jamming doesn't seem to be a major problem. "But it's hard to detect," he said. "Nothing shows up on your phone that says 'Your signal's being jammed.'" Based on phone inquiries and Web site visits, AMBIT's Crowley said many people apparently want a legal way to control wireless bad behavior. "We tell pastors they can't be bashful about asking their congregation to turn off their phones, because there's nothing else available," he said. "The system NaturalNano proposes would be a cost-effective alternative." But even though cell phones can be a nuisance, not all pastors seek a technical solution. "I've had them go off during a service, although it's rare," said Tom Allen, pastor of the Bible Fellowship Church in Yardley, Pa., and an associate professor at Philadelphia Biblical University in Langhorne, Pa. "I use humor or just ignore it. Obviously, the person is embarrassed. One ring reminds everybody else to check their phones. "I've never heard that it happened twice in one service." Man oh man, I'd paint the whole world in this stuff, and leave it on all the time! |
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01 Mar 06 - 05:45 PM (#1682626) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Tig Just take your mobile into some of the pubs, schools etc I go to. A signal in them is impossible at any time! Mind you I do like the idea of this paint. |
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01 Mar 06 - 08:42 PM (#1682776) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: The Fooles Troupe There was an internal house wall paint available in Australia a few years ago that contained iron particles, designed to allow 'fridge magnet' style thingies to adhere. I don't know if it would have worked as a similar filter. It was more expensive than normal internal wall paint and as heavy as hell. You also needed several coats on top of a good undercoat. |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:32 PM (#1682812) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Rapparee Can this be used on the interior of cars??? |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:43 PM (#1682827) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: The Fooles Troupe Doubt it would be effective due to the large window area - unless it can be applied as a transparent coating too. |
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01 Mar 06 - 11:09 PM (#1682900) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Clinton Hammond "Can this be used on the interior of cars???" We can hope! |
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02 Mar 06 - 12:44 AM (#1682942) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Sorcha Yes, for everything except Drs on call....for emergencies...I'd really really like to take a hammer to Mr's.... |
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02 Mar 06 - 03:18 AM (#1682991) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas 'Way back in the stone age when I worked one summer at a local movie theater, it was common practice for doctors (and others with "sevices") to have their calls referred to the theater, so that an usher (they still had them) could come and tell them if they needed to leave the theater and take a call in the lobby. Unfortunately, the majority of the "doctors" failed to introduce themselves to the ushers when entering, so there was no way to find them, and "paging" was not permitted except with the approval of the "manager" (who was usually locked in his office, "consulting" with one of the young ladies from the concession stand). Several "on call" kinds of persons to whom I've related my experience have expressed the opinion that anyone who is so important that their "emergencies" couldn't be referred to an "alternate respondent" shouldn't be where accessing the needed hero would require disturbing a lot of other uninvolved people; but that was also in an earlier era. John |
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02 Mar 06 - 09:18 AM (#1683176) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: GUEST,leeneia How toxic will this paint be when it's spilled or when the walls to which it's been applied are demolished? What about the health of the workers who mfg it and the painters who paint it on? Aren't there nobler uses for the world's supply of copper? These things need to be thought about. Actually, the whole project reminds me of the line, "Go get the ax; there's a flea in Lizzie's ear." |
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02 Mar 06 - 10:47 AM (#1683261) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: MaineDog When I worked with microwaves we used silver loaded paint to apply a shielding (conductive) coating to small objects. You can also shield your theater with metallic window screening, or simply with sheet metal of any type as long as the room is completely enclosed, except for carefully designed doors, sort of like a microwave oven. There are many ways to do this that are safe, if inconvenient. MD |
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02 Mar 06 - 12:11 PM (#1683319) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas The notion of electrically conductive paint, which appears to be about all this "miracle goo" is, has been around for quite a long time. It doesn't appear to gain anything in particular from adding "nanotechnology" except that it's a good buzzword that currently sells pretty well. Alumninum foil used as wallpaper does the suppression bit okay, except that you do need special treatment for the windows and doors. Common aluminum screenwire works pretty well at cell phone frequencies. The windows also can be treated with the same sort of techniques used to make aircraft windows conductive (for de-icing, more often than for RF control). Several glazing materials used primarily for UV/IR filtering work pretty good as RF filters. If one wants really good suppression, that goop that they smear all over the "stealth" airplanes would work, and on theater walls it might even not come of in the rain like it's reported doing on the airplanes. Commercial versions are fairly easily available if you ask right. It's interesting that the news cut-and-paste reports that At this size ... materials have different physical properties than they normally do although they don't say what "different properties" have the any significance at all in this particular product. If this "miracle product" actually does something that a dozen existing products don't do they ought to fire their ad writers for not saying so. Frankly all they wrote is BS, which is really where I'd suggest this wonderful thread belongs, so that the discussion can be turned to the really appropriate subject of the evils of cell phones. John |
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02 Mar 06 - 06:39 PM (#1683648) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: The Fooles Troupe I knew an engineer who some years ago either sprayed his car with paint that had conductive micro beads designed for the correct frequency, or added a layer of similar bog (can't remember at this length of time) that caused Police Radar Guns to have an almost null return - a stealth car! |
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02 Mar 06 - 08:04 PM (#1683725) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas Foolestroupe - I think that one is listed at Snopes, isn't it. [insert grin] Current and recent speed trap radars can be set sensitive enough to measure the speed of the air surrounding and moving along with the car, so it doen't really make a lot of difference if you attenuate the reflection from the car itself. They indicate only the "peak speed" of the fastest moving "anything in the vicinity." Quite a few police departments have gone to laser detectors, so you'd have to render the car invisible (at the appropriate wavelengths) for them. Most highway speed measurements, at least out in the open parts of the US are done by trailing (or sitting) patrol observers, who do not use radar. They use time/measured-distance with systems like the one called VASCAR (used by the Kansas Highway Patrol and several others) that are much more accurate - and they do not need to "match the speed" of (and be seen following) the vehicle who is suspected of speeding with most of the currently used systems. John |
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02 Mar 06 - 09:59 PM (#1683827) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: The Fooles Troupe Actually the guy and his brothers and father live near Toowoomba. They test and certify airframes for a living. The grandfather was famous as a musician and teacher, and built violins. |
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02 Mar 06 - 10:43 PM (#1683895) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas I've also known a few who asserted that they had their own "foolproof" treatments and methods to avoid being detected by police radar. I've yet to see one that couldn't be pretty readily dismissed by any 3 good engineers during a short coffee break, although that never stopped the "believers" from pursuing their secret incantations and libations. I did make a try at using one of the "world's most sophisticated radar detectors" for a while, several years ago, and having driven through numerous "traps" where radar was obviously in use I never got a warning in time to have responded, had I been speeding. The detectors are immensely successful at detecting the vehicle detectors at the drive-through lanes at fast food places and banks, and there is a well known spot on the expressway around my town where all those with detectors slow down for the "truck detector" at the loading chute for the sand pit. They'll also pick up on some types of "intrusion detectors" (burglar alarms), but they're pretty much worthless for anyone who intends to "get by with something" on the road. Detectors did have, perhaps, some effect when the cops generally used continuously transmitting devices, but now the ones in use are mostly "point and click" so there is no signal to detect until after you've been shot. I understand that the Air Force uses a lot of them, since they've found that the $29.95 radar detector is better at spotting incoming RF-guided antiaircraft missiles than the $3M "official" ones built by defense contractors, but on the highway they're just an entertainment device. John |
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03 Mar 06 - 01:40 AM (#1684043) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: The Fooles Troupe I'm not making this up you know. |
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03 Mar 06 - 03:03 AM (#1684065) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas I'm sure you're not making anything up. I'd have to see your friend's patent to be convinced it really works though. And even in places where there are no laws prohibiting things like radar detectors and/or police band scanners, especially if it works it leaves the user open to an "interfering with law inforcement" charge that's so vaguely formed in most statutes that the only hope of not spending a bunch on the defense would be the chance of getting the rare judge that would get a giggle out of it. John |
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03 Mar 06 - 08:30 AM (#1684269) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Nick Wouldn't it just be easier to paint the mobile phones when they are made rather than paint the whole world? |
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03 Mar 06 - 01:18 PM (#1684428) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Clinton Hammond Doctors on Call? We had them for decades before cell phones were invented and they managed just fine... IF you need to be in contact so much that a few moments is the difference between life and death, maybe you shouldn't BE in a movie theatre/restaurant/what-have-you... Myabe you should be at home, sat beside your phone.... "a stealth car!" Mythbusted "easier to paint the mobile phones " It would be, but then no one would buy them..... |
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03 Mar 06 - 06:52 PM (#1684586) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: The Fooles Troupe There was no patent. It was just done for a giggle - when you have a family of nerds, what do you expect? |
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04 Mar 06 - 11:42 AM (#1685062) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: GUEST,EBarnacle The problem I see with a copper loaded paint is the same as the problem with coating the bottoms of ships and boats with copper--it's toxic. The EU, Canada, and various other parts of the world have recenctly banned copper bottom coatings because they poison the water and the sea bottom, interfering with more than the intended bottom growth. If you insist upon a coating, go with the grounded screens. |
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04 Mar 06 - 12:08 PM (#1685077) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Clinton Hammond "coating the bottoms of ships and boats with copper--it's toxic" Not when it's contained in a nanotube it's not.... And well, for all the people crying Farady cage, the paint, if you'd actually READ the article, can be turned on and off.... a Faraday cage (In the shape of "Grounded Screens" for instance) cannot be... |
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04 Mar 06 - 01:59 PM (#1685137) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas Clinton - No. It does not say that "the paint can be turned on and off." It says vaguely that the paint "can be combined with a radio filtering device" to pass signals you want, in your paste job at least. While it is obviously meant to imply that the paint has "magical properties," it gives no useful information about what those properties are. Typical is the quote I cited earlier: "At this size, which is near the molecular scale, materials have different physical properties than they normally do." The article says NOTHING about what these special properties are, and how it is meaningful to have these special properties in a bucket of paint. The ONLY thing in the article that states a "fact" that can reasonably be taken as descriptive of the properties of the "miracle" is: "His firm has found a way to use nanotechnology to blend particles of copper into paint that can be brushed onto walls and effectively deflect radio signals." The remainder of your cut and paste is vague generalities about "cell phones are a problem and everybody hates them" and "nanotubes are great stuff for bragging about in advertisements." Since the article is written in the standard "buzzspeak" common to most of the flood of glorious public predictions for a brave new world with nanotubes everywhere, it's difficult to work up much enthusiasm - at least until there's a competent technical summary. There is some useful information on interesting things being done with nanotechnology in some of the technical journals; and occasionally a meaningful report appears in a "popular" press article; but this article isn't one of the rare ones. But thanks for posting it. It has provoked an interesting discussion. John |
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04 Mar 06 - 02:12 PM (#1685142) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: GUEST,Elizabeth Block, Toronto, Canada If this stuff works, the inventor should be in line for the Nobel Peace Prize. |
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04 Mar 06 - 02:31 PM (#1685155) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Clinton Hammond " No. It does not say that "the paint can be turned on and off." My mistake, kinda... It said that in another article on the same subject... this one hints at it when it says it could block "On Demand"... In other words, block some stuff and not other stuff, or it might be able to be turned on and off... "a company called NaturalNano is developing" Key word there is DEVELOPING.... Lets hope it exceeds their expectations.... |
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04 Mar 06 - 03:45 PM (#1685172) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas It is possible that these guys actually have something a little different than the easily available existing products. Unfortunately they don't really say so in the article pasted. My built-in Bullshit filter automatically assumes that when they say "it's new and different" it probably isn't, unless they're pretty specific about why and how. It's also possible that the Chicago Trib may have "edited" a meaningful release from the company; but the meaningless adspeak in the article is unfortunately all too typical of "new product releases." It's doubly unfortunate that people generally are so susceptible to such "nonspeak" since the politicians have learned to use it with such great facility. John |
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05 Mar 06 - 07:45 AM (#1685495) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas At the NaturalNano home page you find a couple of "News Releases." One of these relates to the "technology" described in the cut-and-paste "news" report in Clinton's opening post here. NaturalNano Licenses Key Patent for Selective Wireless Access in RF Shielded Environments NaturalNano, Inc. announced that it has exclusively licensed technology that allows for selectively turning on or off access to radio signals, such as those used by cell phones or wireless computer networking devices, in areas that otherwise are shielded from those signals There is a link from the above quote to a separate News Release that says vaguely that this is a wonderful company, but that includes: NaturalNano licensed U.S. Patent No. 6,885,845, entitled "Personal Communications Device Connectivity Arrangement" from AMBIT Corporation. and, from an AMBIT spokesman: "Until now, there has not been a practical, profit generating cellular shielding system that can be turned on or off. Unlike illegal jamming, our system monitors and controls the flow of radio, cellular and WIFI signals into a building and has a built-in billing function, too. The license to NaturalNano includes AMBIT Corporation's technologies to direct and route revenue-generating information streams in a shielded environment." And: The use of metalized halloysite nanotubes for RF shielding came about as a result of a NaturalNano research and development program. Experimental trials included creation of a spray coating embedded with copper-filled halloysite nanotubes. The resulting material demonstrated significant RF signal strength reduction capability. NaturalNano's spray-on shielding formulation, when applied to the walls of a room, may provide a passive blocking agent for radio frequency (RF) energy…. A separate link from the NaturalNano home page goes to a NaturalNano RF Shielding web page, where you will find an "illustration of an RF shielding application" The illustration is a crude cartoon, but includes as footnotes: 1. Proprietary nano-enhanced wall paint passively blocks Radio Frequency (RF) traffic. 2. Patented wireless technology enables RF traffic at selected times (at intermission). It is reasonbaly clear that the "NaturalNano" paint provides passive, fixed, and permanent RF shielding where it is suitably applied to an enclosed space. Any of many existing methods could be used to selectively "port" desired signals into any such shielded space and to distribute such signals for any uses desired within the space. Most such methods can be equipped with an on/off switch. It is reasonably clear that the separate technology licensed under the AMBIT patent provides a specific independent method for porting selected RF signals into any shielded area from which such signals are independently blocked. It is completely immaterial whether this "patented technology" is used in conjunction with the NaturalNano paint, or with aluminum foil hats. Elsewhere on the NaturalNano site it is made clear that this company works almost exclusively with "naturally occuring nanotubes found in halloysite clay." A few hundred years ago, people used to call this "the fine dust" you got when you ground up this clay. They didn't know they were supposed to call the dust particles nanotubes, but it didn't prevent them from mixing other materials with it to make pottery glazes, or from mixing it with other materials to make paint. NaturalNano appears to deliberately attempt to imply that they somehow "insert" their copper inside the nanotubes however with naturally occuring materials this would be an impossible task.("Nanotubes" of this kind are unlikely to have a hole large enough to "insert" a Cu molecule.) Their attempt apparently worked succussfully, as the editor of the original cut/paste apparently provided the "copper is inserted into nanotubes" bit which doesn't appear that specifically in the company's hype. The reference to "copper-filled" means, as I see it, the conventional meaning in the paint and plastic industries, that copper dust is mixed with very fine clay dust which is stirred into paint. Primitive man did the same thing several thousands of years ago. Modern man currently does the same thing with epoxy paints, latex paints, phenolic paints, and many others, and many of these mixtures are, or can be made to be electrically conductive and hence useful for RF shielding if an appropriate conductive material is used as part of the "fill." Extremely sophisticated RF shielding "paints" or "coatings" are made using carbon and/or high-purity silicon fill, sometimes in combination with other materials, to get precisely controlled resistance/conductance/capacitance characteristics to tailor the material to absorption of specific RF/IR/UV/microwave/Xray/nuclear-particle energy. From what is given, there is NO NEW SCIENCE here. What is here is a new "commercial packaging" of two reasonably conventional and reasonably well known "processes," to make something that a company with a marginally competent advertising department may be able to exploit for profit. And again, I suggest that this thread should be moved to the BS section before it "passes into archive status." John |
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05 Mar 06 - 06:56 PM (#1685988) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: Greg F. Now, if they'd just make a Yuppie-proof paint, THAT would be Nobel Prize material. |
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06 Mar 06 - 01:54 AM (#1686207) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: JohnInKansas Greg F - Even there, there is an existing alternate product that can, in proper circumstances provide excellent results. All that's required is that you get the yuppie to hold still long enough to get the DUCT TAPE applied. They're usually helpless with a short strip across their wallet pocket so they can't get their credit cards out; although a "security strap" that keeps them from extracting their cell phone from the holster has also been effective. John |
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06 Mar 06 - 05:57 AM (#1686282) Subject: RE: Tech: Cellphone-Proof Paint From: The Fooles Troupe A short strip across the mouth is even more effective. |