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09 Apr 06 - 01:13 PM (#1713843) Subject: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Once Famous I am not an atheist and I am not Christian. Yet I kind of like some gospel music because of its' heartfelt flavors of faith. I also like some of the tunes themselves and am not uncomfortable playing most of these songs with those who they have more meaning for them than I as a non-Christian. Gospel music is a very distinctive part of folk music. As there are some true atheists here, some hard core ones, I am curious as to what they think of gospel music and if they squirm in situations where singing praise can't really be avoided. |
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09 Apr 06 - 01:20 PM (#1713845) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: wysiwyg Pardon my Christian response, MG-- :~) ... but there was an old thread where a lot of people posted. I hope you will get lots of replies in this thread, and I also hope someone who can recall the older thread can find that for you to look at, too. ~Susan |
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09 Apr 06 - 01:46 PM (#1713865) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Jerry Rasmussen Hey, Martin: There definitely are folks who are Atheists who enjoy gospel music. There are some Catters in that category who have openly expressed their enjoyment. I have Jewish friends who love gospel, and my son is Muslim and just took a flier anouncing a gospel concert where my group is singing, to post on the bulletin board at his mosque. I've been in gospel workshops at festivals where I was the only Christian, and everyone else was either Agnostic or Atheist. At least the ones I knew. It's not the kind of thing I'd ever ask anyone, so I have friends and acquaintances I've known for years who I don't know if they have a belief in God. My Gospel quartet was even asked to sing at a Jewish funeral service. In the long run, I think it's the spirit in which the music is presented. Jerry |
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09 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM (#1713874) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: SINSULL I enjoy gospel, Martin. Great rhythms, harmonies, inspired singing. What's not to like? I also listen to Tibetan chants and fall under the spell of the hypnotic cadences and rhythms. On rare occasions I still sing hymns learned in childhood. I don't "believe" the stories anymore than I believe in Puff the Magic Dragon but the music lifts my spirit. |
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09 Apr 06 - 02:06 PM (#1713875) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Mr Red Speaking as a devout atheist - and a committed folkie. Hey - if the music is good - go for it. Why should the devil (whoever she is) have all the best tunes. I even wrote a gospel song, though how I sing it with my toungue firmly in my cheek I will never know. I also sing "Bunch of Thyme" on occasions - but I do draw the line at the wearing of the kilt. |
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09 Apr 06 - 02:07 PM (#1713876) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Rapparee I needn't be black to enjoy Louis Armstrong or Mahlia Jackson, Jewish to enjoy Ashreynu, Catholic to enjoy plainsong...why couldn't I be an atheist and enjoy gospel? |
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09 Apr 06 - 02:15 PM (#1713886) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Bill D well, something we can agree on, MG...I enjoy and sing a number of gospel songs. The faith that created them made some very listenable and powerful songs, no matter what you think of the theology behind them. Bluegrass music, which you are familar with, uses many, many of those songs. Interestingly, one of the best gospel singers I ever heard was Jewish..... Helen Scheyner, who died last year, and was celebrated in the threads. |
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09 Apr 06 - 02:18 PM (#1713890) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: MaineDog I think its great to sing songs of all musical traditions! We should respect the material, though, and those who adhere to the faiths represented. We should not, for example, go to a Sacred Harp sing, and loudly sing irreverent words just to see if we can gross out the Christians. MD |
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09 Apr 06 - 02:35 PM (#1713903) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Barb'ry I am a devout atheist and admit readily that I have a problem singing gospel songs. It isn't that I don't like the music, in fact I find some of the tunes beautiful, but I feel extremely hypocritical to say on the one hand that I do not believe in god, do not think he had anything to do with the way I feel, who I am and how the world is, and then on the other hand join in songs saying the opposite. I can certainly appreciate why other atheists may disagree with this - but I still feel uncomfortable and tend not to sing along. |
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09 Apr 06 - 02:59 PM (#1713926) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: The Shambles Is this thread music related? It does (currently at least) have the word 'music' in its title. I may not share the sentiments of many songs but that does mean I cannot enjoy listening to them. I may even sing them. In fact it was loving the tunes of some the hymnns I sang at my Church of England infant school that got me to into folk music. For many of the tunes were in fact folk tunes - that had been 'borrowed' and tarted-up. The same question could be asked for nationalistic tunes or those with a strong political bias. For whether you share the sentimnts - it remains music that your ears either like the sound of - or do not. |
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09 Apr 06 - 03:11 PM (#1713934) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: frogprince Again, forgive a non-atheist for butting in : ) I write a little stuff on the "gospel" side myself, and the time was when I could sing (to the limited degree to which I can sing) just about anything in that tradition. Now I come at Christianity from a much more liberal perspective, and I sometimes cringe at some lyrics which really "rub in" very doctinaire fundamentalism. |
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09 Apr 06 - 03:16 PM (#1713936) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Bill D Barb'ry..indeed, there are many 'religious' songs that I can NOT bring myself to sing. Some are so very syrupy or sanctimonious or just oozing Jeeezus, that they make my skin crawl...but some are just happy, lively or beautiful expressions of a presumed happier place. Everyone must choose for themselves how to take them in and where to participate...if at all. |
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09 Apr 06 - 03:49 PM (#1713955) Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Jim Dixon Can you sing 'Gospel' without Belief? (108 messages) Can a believer sing Atheist songs? (141 messages) Can you sing gospel without belief 2 (12 messages) Do you need to *believe* what you sing? (122 messages) |
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09 Apr 06 - 04:33 PM (#1713976) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Jeri Shambles was right, this is most definitely a music thread. De-BS'd it It's about people's habits (not all Catholic) regarding religious music. I had a hard time for years singing religious music when I wasn't. I figured people might think I WAS religious. Then I realized I was giving up part of what was, in my case, my heritage. I was rejecting Christian hymns and gospel in a way I would never do if given the opportunity to sing along on a song of any other religion that wasn't hateful. I also realized I sang songs involving rape, murder, incest, sailing, whaling, yada-yada-yada, and none of these things were part of my life. With the possible exception of sailing, I didn't believe they were even good things. So I re-acquainted myself with gospel music and hymns. Now, unless I'm at a religious event where fellow attendees have reason to believe everyone else there is a member of that religion, and I think they don't want non-believers singing, I'll join in. I'm not likely to be in this sort of situation though. |
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09 Apr 06 - 04:40 PM (#1713982) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Jim Dixon Oops! forgot this one: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? (92 messages) |
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09 Apr 06 - 06:06 PM (#1714036) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: mack/misophist I once met a cantor who was an atheist. To him, the church was just the place he worked in. |
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09 Apr 06 - 06:18 PM (#1714044) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: GUEST,dr word i love this place dennis |
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09 Apr 06 - 06:27 PM (#1714052) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: wysiwyg I USED to assume all singers of gospel were believers-- can you blame me? Now I know better. Live and learn! Maine Dog-- I've run into a few of those test-me folks! How should I respond??!!??!!??!! ~Susan |
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09 Apr 06 - 07:52 PM (#1714100) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: MaineDog Susan, I used to sing in Massachusetts where there are lots of singers who clearly didn't believe. Some of them have altered lyrics ready to go. Some of them weren't too bad, like, "Shepherds washed their socks by night" and so forth, but many of the songs concerning Jesus or the Holy Spirit were trashed in some way. I also remember when the impromptu Christian Gospel Sing at the Old Songs Festival was crashed by people who wanted equal time for the Buddhists. We said something like, "yes, by all means you may sing Buddhist songs, but please do it over there------>" MD |
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09 Apr 06 - 08:07 PM (#1714110) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: SINSULL Long live the Pope His praises sing Again and yet again! His rule is over space and time His throne the hearts of men. All hail the Saviour King of Rome\ heh heh Joe Offer brought that out! |
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09 Apr 06 - 11:53 PM (#1714225) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: michaelr I will not sing any "Jesus songs". But I have heard black gospel singers and been moved to tears by the emotion they conveyed. I wrote a song once that contained the lyrics "...not for me... the comfort of a simple faith." This came out of a feeling of almost-envy, out of wishing I could be one who believes the pat answers and single-minded credos. My life could be so much simpler! Oh well. It'll never work for me. Too many active brain cells. Cheers, Michael |
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10 Apr 06 - 01:32 AM (#1714244) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Joe Offer I love gospel music, but I won't sing it in church. The theology doesn't fit my rather progressive Catholicism - and the bloody lambs and warfare analogies and the sentimentality, just don't work in a Catholic context. But the tunes are great and very singable, and the lyrics colorful. I love the songs I sing in church, but I rarely feel comfortable singing them in a non-religious context. Some have reached a wider audience - "On Eagles' Wings" and "Make Me a Channel of Your Peace" - but those songs are sacred to me, and I'm reluctant to sing them outside of a sacred context and don't want to impose my religion on somebody else. But gospel music is so much fun to sing - I think it's written to be fun. My friend Mrs. Lev won't sing gospel, though. I think this is an area where there is a wide spectrum of opinion, something that demands respect and tolerance, and an openness to the sensitivities of others. -Joe- |
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10 Apr 06 - 02:12 AM (#1714262) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Purple Foxx Though not a believer I like a great deal of gospel music. I tend not to sing it not for "Ideological" reasons but simply because I do not have the voice for it. WYSIWYG,With regard to the "test me" people you could point out that by attacking God they are implicity acknowledging a belief in God.;) |
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10 Apr 06 - 03:33 AM (#1714284) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: jamminfool I've played at bluegrass/gospel festivals, and nobody seems to mind that I don't agree with the editorial policy of said songs. Neither do I. It's about the music, and old-style gospel swings like mad. |
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10 Apr 06 - 03:43 AM (#1714292) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler I sing with a West Gallery choir whilst not being a "believer". To me it's just another tradition to keep alive. |
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10 Apr 06 - 04:08 AM (#1714306) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: The Shambles I think the best time (and perhaps the only time) to sing a nationalistic song) is when you are not of the nation the song is celebrating or when you are of the nation the song may be against and when you are singing it in neither of these countries). For example when an Englishman sings Flower of Scotland in Wales. And preferably sings it in Welsh............... Possibly the best people to sing Gospel and religious music are non-believers? |
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10 Apr 06 - 10:21 AM (#1714489) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Bill D There was a time, in certain areas, where singing secular music was frowned on, and many songs with what I call "Metaphysical Metaphor" (which I once chaired a singaround on) were created to allow folks to allude to everyday life, while keeping a religious theme. "Life is Like a Mountain Railroad" comes to mind, and "Heavenly Aeroplane" and "Royal Telephone" |
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10 Apr 06 - 08:14 PM (#1714838) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: GUEST,Art Thieme Martin and all, I love gospel music and have no trouble enjoying the pure musicality of it as well as the sincerity of the good people who believe every nuance of it whole hog. As I've mentioned, I am an atheist Jew who has been the loving spouse of a Jehovah's Witness for the last 39 years. Their music is just terrible---to my ears. What can I say. Still I honor their sincere belief in spite of my utterances here in several threads because I was pissed off at you personally. I ain't proud o' that---but I think it's what I did---and I'm sorry for letting you push my buttons. Hopefully, them days are over and done. But Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver doing their thing as only they can will always be profound and moving to me. Art Thieme |
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10 Apr 06 - 11:13 PM (#1714910) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: GUEST,Art again I was talking to Martin when I mentioned my buttons getting pushed. Nobody else. ;-) Art |
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10 Apr 06 - 11:19 PM (#1714912) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Scoville I'm an atheist for all practical purposes and there are gospel/religious songs that I like. Sometimes it's a bit of a conflict because I like the music but not the words ("Farther Along") but there are some with very nice images in the words, even if you're not religious. I always liked, in particular, "It Soon Be Done" (I'm gonna shake hands with all of the elders/tell all the people 'good morning'/sit down beside my Jesus/sit down and rest a while) and "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms". My father appropriated "Turn Your Radio On" for his First Day School class since Quakers do that direct-communication-with-God thing. The kids thought it was hilarious (they're teenagers--they're old enough to understand that it doesn't mean the same thing in our context but they still thought it was a lot of fun). My mother likes "Precious Memories", I like "Wayfaring Stranger" and "Wondrous Love", and we all like "I'll Fly Away" and "Uncloudy Day". |
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11 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM (#1714988) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: GUEST I don't like gospel music much but I do like apocalypsos. |
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11 Apr 06 - 04:05 AM (#1714991) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Maid in Cyberspace Well, I do know of someone whom I think is agnostic or atheist who sings spirituals. I do love them! I must admit though, that one reason is that I believe practically every word of them. MIC |
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11 Apr 06 - 06:48 AM (#1715038) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Grab A good song is a good song. FWIW, I found that singing in my mum's church (Methodist, English) seemed rather pathetic after I got into folk music. It wasn't just the singers (a majority of whom were very proper elderly women) either. The problem I found was that the songs were all absolutely terrible, so it just wasn't possible to sing something that bad with any kind of conviction. Every last one was written by someone whose religiousness far exceeded their tune- or lyrics-writing ability. (Yes, Wesley J, I'm looking at you! and don't think you insipid Victorians are getting away with it either...) I have to say I feel a damn sight more spirituality in a good sing-song with people harmonising every which way than I've ever felt singing in church. Which rather leads me to the conclusion that any sensible god would rather people did things well than did them as a way of currying favour. Gospel and revival-style music generally is a bit different though, in that people *have* actually found some decent tunes to sing to. It'd be nice for English churches to do a bit more of that, but all those elderly women are so used to the insipid crap they've been singing all their lives that full-fat inhibited singing would probably kill them. ;-) Graham. |
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11 Apr 06 - 08:13 AM (#1715075) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Maid in Cyberspace It depends on your point of view...there are some good songs they will sing in church with folk tunes but words by some Victorian guy... |
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11 Apr 06 - 10:36 AM (#1715163) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Scoville Amen, Grab! |
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11 Apr 06 - 12:14 PM (#1715210) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: PoppaGator Joe Offer describes his beliefs as "progressive Catholicism"; he and I seem to agree on most spiritual and political matters, but I'm a progressive ex-Catholic and, more or less, a beatnik Buddhist. I do believe in an overabiding spiritual reality (like what the twelve-steppers call a "Higher Power"), but I am very skeptical about the detailed knowledge of God claimed by any of the established churches. That said, I love gospel music as sung primarily in African-American Protestant churches (and in a very few predominantly Black Catholic parishes here in New Orleans). I have no problem jumping right in to sing along, and even to harmonize, with absolute enthusiasm. I also love much of the very old and traditional liturgical singing I heard in the Catholic church during my childhood ~ not always so much for participation, but great listening. A lot of other religious-music traditions are pretty appealing to me, even those I don't yet know very well ~ for example, Sacred Harp. The church music I like least is the faux-folk "guitar Mass" songs written for the post-Vatican-II Catholic liturgy. Very sappy stuff. (I'm pretty sure that White American Protestantism can also offer a lot of similarly distasteful material, but I have deliberately avoided learning much about it ~ I don't listen to it!) I was a student at a Catholic university when all that liturgical reform was new and vibrant, a place where new liturgical experiemnts were encouraged, and at first I enjoyed the new style. Of course, I changed and became more skeptical, but the Church also changed shortly after the death of Pope John XXIII, retreating from most of the revolutionary changes that that just recently begun, and before long I lost interest in the Church and no longer accepted its authority. One example of the Vatican's retreat from musical reform: one of my favorites among the new "folk" hymns of the early 60s was "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love," a nice minor-key melody with lyrics that celebrated true ecumenicism (i.e., unity between Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Coptics, etc.) As soon as the old school regained control of the Vatican, that song was phased out, as the hierarchy reclaimed its position of "we're right and they're wrong" as a cornerstone of approved belief. However, I can still sing "His Eye Is On The Sparrow," "Ain't Gonna Study War No More," "The Hem of His Garment," etc., with complete enthusiasm. Of course, it's more likely to happen on the street, in the Gospel tent at JazzFest, or in an AME or Black Baptist church than in the typical Catholic parish. |
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11 Apr 06 - 12:24 PM (#1715215) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Rapparee I went to church at the Newman Center at Kent State University (yes, THAT Kent State!) in the '70s. The music director there was...knowledgeable. Once after communion he and the group played "Jeremiah Was A Bullfrog" for the post-communion meditation hymn. We also did "Rainbow Children" and other "Billy Jack" songs, PP&M stuff, and in general had a good time. He'd divide the church into thirds and do rounds, and he was writing a Mass for his master's in music. Best church music I ever heard/participated in. Even so, I don't think you can beat "Dies Irae" for a nice, upbeat beginning to a requiem mass. |
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11 Apr 06 - 10:04 PM (#1715702) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: GUEST,Dani Great update on an old conversation! What Joe isn't saying is that he is TERRIFIC at belting out those bloody lamb songs. And, Joe, do you mean to say that that old barn at Ramblewood ISN'T sacred space when that gospel sing happens?! I know what you mean, though. Isn't it funny how, when it comes to religion and church music we keep some close to the chest? As a former Catholic, and what my friend calls "christian with a small 'c'", I happen to love some of that sappy stuff PoppaGator is talking about. Very formative, but can't imagine singing it in public, though I'll sing almost anything else ; ) "We hold a treasure not made of gold In earthen vessels wealth untold" Dani |
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11 Apr 06 - 10:52 PM (#1715736) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: frogprince What Poppagator isn't saying, thank goo'ness, is what I heard a right-wing-nut on radio in Chicago came out with years ago. I won't remember his name, but he was something like a local cut-rate Limbaugh or O'Reilly. He got started on religion one day, bemoaned the horrors of the use of English in the mass, and went on to say, in dead seriousness, "You know God doesn't want to hear guitars in church" |
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12 Apr 06 - 01:04 AM (#1715843) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Maid in Cyberspace Guitars are fine in church...that's what I believe. (seen it, too) |
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12 Apr 06 - 10:43 PM (#1716919) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: The Fooles Troupe "Make a joyful noise".... doesn't necessarily imply tonality, melody, harmony, or sweetness.... And we don't have some of those instruments these days... |
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14 Apr 06 - 06:31 AM (#1717966) Subject: RE: Atheists and Gospel Music From: Maid in Cyberspace Hey, what about Christmas songs? D'you make exceptions for Christmas? |