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13 May 06 - 07:41 PM (#1740213) Subject: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Microsoft automatic updates just hit me with a new installation of a small program that "verifies" that my Windows is authentic. It appears to be intended as part of Automatic Updates, although thus far it's landed on only one of my four WinXP machines. The indication is that if you get updates you will get it. (And it's something you probably have not had foisted on you previously.) Description of the Windows Genuine Advantage Notifications application is the article referenced when it downloaded to my machine. A link at that page goes to General Genuine Advantage BS The interesting part of it, for any of you who know or suspect a problem with the "genuineness" of your WinXP would be at the FAQ page that I floundered my way to from the immediately above:: Genuine Advantage FAQ Quote from second section of so of the FAQ: What is the genuine Windows offer? Q: What is the genuine Windows offer? A: The Microsoft genuine Windows offer is designed to help customers who unknowingly purchased counterfeit versions of Windows XP by offering those who qualify a complimentary copy or electronic license key for a genuine copy of Windows XP. Q: What are the details of the genuine Windows offer? A: To help customers who unknowingly purchased a counterfeit version of Windows XP, Microsoft has created two genuine Windows offers for those who qualify: Complimentary offer: Microsoft will make a complimentary copy of Windows XP available to customers who have been sold counterfeit Windows. Customers will be required to submit a proof of purchase, the counterfeit CD, and a counterfeit report with details of their purchase. Only high-quality counterfeit Windows will qualify for the complimentary offer. Electronic License Key Offer: Microsoft will offer an alternative for customers who find out via the WGA validation process that they are not running genuine Windows, but do not qualify for, or choose not to take advantage of, the complimentary offer. These customers will be able to license a Windows Genuine Advantage Kit for Windows XP online for a price of $99 for Windows XP Home edition or $149 for Windows XP Professional. The Windows Genuine Advantage Kit for Windows XP will include a new 25-character Product Key and a Windows Product Key Update tool that will allow customers to convert their counterfeit copy to genuine Windows XP electronically. END QUOTE: IF YOU QUALIFY (rules somewhat vague) you may get a free copy of "real WinXP." IF YOU DON'T QUALIFY, you may be able to get a "conversion to real" for about half (or less) what just buying a new WinXP would be likely to cost you. This probably applies only if your Windows came with a machine, and would not apply if you're your own counterfeiter. We have at least one member who has been informed that his machine came with a counterfeit copy – that I know of – and it does present a problem for keeping up to date and getting full function from WinXP. I'd suggest checking this out at the links above and/or wherever they lead you, if there's any possibility this program applies to you. John |
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13 May 06 - 09:21 PM (#1740267) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: The Fooles Troupe "Only high-quality counterfeit Windows will qualify for the complimentary offer. " high-quality counterfeit Windows - bloody hell, even the conterfeits have to be approved by MS now? :-) |
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13 May 06 - 10:00 PM (#1740291) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Robin - The FAQ says something about "those who unknowingly" bought a bad one. They'll help if you got scammed, but if you're incredibly stupid, or made you're own, they probably figure you're beyond help. When a cousin "inadvertently" bought a hot car some many years ago, Ford didn't offer to get him one with a clear title. John |
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13 May 06 - 10:19 PM (#1740299) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Bill D sounds like an attempt by M$ to FIND all the copies they don't want out there. In the process, they may just collect info about IPs and go mineing for other things they don't like... I have my update prefs set to ask me if I want their updates....I will see. |
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13 May 06 - 11:32 PM (#1740321) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: GUEST,John O'L "Customers will be required to submit a proof of purchase, the counterfeit CD, and a counterfeit report with details of their purchase" Anyone having any trouble assembling the above, I'll be happy to knock up a counterfeit report for them... |
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14 May 06 - 12:04 AM (#1740333) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Bill D - I haven't seen an official update on their policy, but as of a few months ago they indicated they will provide Critical Updates (Security fixes) even if your copy isn't an original. You have to validate your copy to get the optional stuff. The pages linked above seem to imply that the same policy remains in effect. They imply that the "checker" will come with updates from now on, and will be updated each time you get a new patch download. You can turn off the popup notice that your copy is a counterfeit, but it will be turned back on when you get the next update. If you don't validate a new installation within 30 days of first boot, I believe it will continue to run but you don't get full performance or "all the good features." I intended to look for a description of what happens if they figure out you're counterfeit; but I ran out of time and energy. Separate subject: In a previous thread, there was discussion of the license for the Windows (esp. WinXP) that comes on a new machine (OEM version) being not transferable to another machine. Microsoft considers a new motherboard "building a new machine" that requires a new license. After a ridiculous amount of searching, I finally found what I think are copies of the EULA for the FPP (Full Package Product) that you buy at retail; and for that method of acquiring WinXP you can transfer the FPP version of WinXP to a different machine, as long as it's on only one at a time. The shrink-wrap version usually will cost you about 50% more than what the OEMs will knock of if you buy a mchine without an OS, but for people who might want to do major surgery it might be worthwhile getting the transferable version from the start. A possible other consideration in the OEM vs FPP choice is that Microsoft provides no direct support for the OEM version. You have to go to the machine builder. Microsoft will provide direct support for the FPP version. (For a price, after a short warranty period.) If your builder is likely not to be around to support you, you might want to buy your own retail FPP WinXP up front at the beginning. John |
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14 May 06 - 12:22 AM (#1740340) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: GUEST,Brendy There was a workaround for this some months ago. Microsoft originally released the WGA as an addon in IE...., but that could be disabled, allowing to update as before; you would only receive an error symbol in the status bar. Then they came up with this latest one, and that seems to be a bit harder to crack. There's a few 'Tech' forums out there discussing the workaround, and a few files are available, most of them with disclaimers attached, from what I have seen. I'll wait a few months before I try any of these 'fixes', as the beta, gamma, and delta versions of them will likely be an improvement. I have one machine (seldom used) which this applies to, so I'm not really worried about it neither. The other computers have all passed the test famously already. I doubt any OS will ever be totally 'hack-free' B. |
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14 May 06 - 01:09 PM (#1740581) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Stilly River Sage The dates in this thread are all 2006--but I'm really surprised you're only discovering this now, John. You're usually the first to comment on this stuff, but this authentication process has been around for more than a year. I was in New York City last summer helping a friend with his computer. He's a bona fide Luddite, and through phone calls and email I've talked him through lots of fixes and such. When he bought this computer a couple of years ago I gave him a laundry list of what he needed. He should have gone to a store like CompUSA and just bought one with all of these features, but he had a computer store in the neighborhood make one for him. When I got my hands on it last summer I first thing updated everything in preparation for installing Ghost and an external hard drive to back it up--he may not know how it works but he has information vital to the work he does in it. I hit that Microsoft authentication wall and realized that the techs at the neighborhood store had put in a pirated version. He could have kept using the bad version, but it would have gotten further and further out of date and less able to support new software. Tom didn't qualify for a full free version, but he did get it at half-price. We had to answer questions about where he got it, receipt information, etc. and then purchase the new version while using that computer. I had to use my credit card (he doesn't have one in this post-Sept. 11 world as he gets back on his feet) so they shipped it to me (have to mail it to the owner of the card) and I shipped it back to him and a friend helped him install it. That business is out of business, so they evidently were busted earlier by Microsoft. It's a pain in the backside to have to go through all of that, but I could only set up automatic updates if he had an authentic version, and he is one user who needs it to happen automatically because he'll never do it himself. SRS |
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14 May 06 - 06:16 PM (#1740793) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas SRS - The program has been around for quite a while, apparently. I haven't run into it because it previously has been made known only to (some of) those who ran into a validation problem. It apparently has NOT been consistently made known to people who had a validation problem, since at least one person has reported being told a copy was counterfeit who was not directed to the remedies. The new change is that all who access the Microsoft update site for patches can expect to be checked, and that there is an identifiable link to the "get real" program so that those who were scammed have a way of following up and finding out whether they can do something other than "go buy a new one." There is, incidentally, the implication that the "checker" will be frequently updated, so that those who prefer to use stolen copies may find the need to update the "workarounds" occasionally. Since some people with counterfeits apparently weren't being made aware of the recovery options, and since the recovery plan is now openly and publicly available, I felt that people should know where to find the information - just in case they, or a friend, should run into the problem. The "new" is that now everybody may know. John |
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15 May 06 - 10:22 AM (#1740914) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Stilly River Sage I haven't run into it because it previously has been made known only to (some of) those who ran into a validation problem. No, I think that's incorrect. I have never had an authentication problem on either of my computers here, yet when I visited Microsoft online last year to check on updates I ended up going through the authentication process. It may have been voluntary at the time, but as I recall it was actually necessary if I wanted to set up the computers to receive automatic updates. SRS |
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15 May 06 - 11:24 AM (#1740964) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: GUEST,Jon The more I read, the more I'd glad I decided not to go past Win2K Pro (which I much prefer to what I've seen of XP Home btw) with Windows and do 95% of my stuff on Linux. far less hassle both in stability (at least compared to any version of Windoes I've used) and an absence of the things mentioned in this thread. Plus, my online updates do not just update my OS but for most of the software I run on the OS too! I'm toying with the idea of upgrading one of my PCs soon to Suse 10.1. I can't be bothered with the free Open Suse version (take me over a day to download) so that levaes me with the choice at the moment of an Open Suse CD set which I can get for abot £6 + postage or really splash out and get the full Novell retail DVD version for a whapping £35 when it becomes available later this month. |
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15 May 06 - 12:18 PM (#1740989) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Stilly - The Authentication program has been in effect since day one of WinXP. I'm not sure whether it was in effect since the beginning of Win2K, but a variant is now in effect for Win2K for some services from Microsoft. What is different is that there was no clearly identifiable, generally published, and easily found, explanation of what you could or should do if your copy of Windows failed to be accepted as a genuine version. Apparently some were told about the possibility of free or reduced cost replacement of their counterfeit copies; and you have indicated that for a friend you found that information and got a reduced cost replacement. Others were not receiving the information that Microsoft might, in some circumstances, assist them. The only thing I offered as something NEW is the existence of a known web page where anyone affected by counterfeiting can see what assistance Microsoft may be willing to give them. Any WinXP installation that is not authenticated at the time of installation will revert to a restricted mode, making some functions inactive, at the 30th restart of the program. The same is true of many newer Office programs. If you received WinXP preinstalled as an OEM copy, the manufacturer may or may not have done the initial authentication for you, so you might not see that initial process. If you reinstall the whole OS, you will have to reauthenticate. If you make significant changes to your hardware, you may be asked to reauthenticate. Most maintenance changes, or addition of common features to a machine, will be accepted. (A recent clarification did state that replacing the motherboard is not an acceptable change unless it's done by the original builder as a repair.) Beyond the intial authentication, many users may never have seen a need to participate in this process again; but if you want anything other than the minimum Critical Updates, and in some cases if you want to receive Critical Updates automatically, you may be asked to reauthenticate when you sign up for the services. This has not changed. Having searched for information on what recourse was available for those who might have been scammed into a counterfeit, and not finding anything, I felt it might be of interest to anyone who has had a problem with a counterfeit copy to know where to find information on assistance that might be available from Microsoft. This information may have been "available;" but was previously very difficult to find (apparently unless you happened to be one that Microsoft chose to inform about it). I have no way of knowing how Microsoft previously determined which counterfeit victims to help, and which to ignore; but your friend was helped, and at least one other from whom I've heard was not. The only NEW THING is that I now know where he can go to ask if help is available in his case. (And so does anyone else who choses to look at the links in the opening post of this thread.) John |
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15 May 06 - 05:33 PM (#1741293) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Stilly River Sage I installed most of my software myself and authenticated it right away, not waiting around for the 30-day period to expire. So I didn't see the authentication screen as might be presented to the person starting the program on day 31. As far as the pirated XP Pro, I don't remember now if I learned about the half-price offer when I hit the screen saying he didn't have a certified copy, or if I found it after poking around. I think I'd heard about discounted replacements and knew something like that existed. SRS |
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15 May 06 - 06:02 PM (#1741318) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Stilly - One of the reasons I'd been looking for a "policy" was because I'd also heard rumors about some help for people who got ripped off; but the only "rumors with possibly valid source" came from people where their webmasters worked the deal. This implies that they were on a "volume license" which quite likely would be different than for individual buyers. It was rather frustrating to be looking intentionally, and not finding anything - but you sort of get used to it when you deal with Microsoft. There is a slightly "different deal" for volume licenses, both with respect to help for counterfeits and for "transportability" of a licensed copy from one machine to another - but it was a pretty long road to find anything specific about individual users. It's still a crap-shoot as to whether a particular individual will get help; but at least there's a contact point. Maybe the long search was one of the reasons I thought I'd found something new... John |
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15 May 06 - 07:13 PM (#1741361) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Nick It may have been around or not for a while but the update only arrived on my home and work computers over this weekend and not before. |
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15 May 06 - 08:25 PM (#1741407) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Nick - The update that I got, that made reference to the KB article, that led to the information about the possibility of Microsoft help with some counterfeits, arrived quite recently; and unlike most updates that simply install in background, that one stopped and asked for a permission to install. The request for permission is where I found the first link to the help information. I'm set up to allow updates to install automatically, and in this case if I hadn't been at the machine to enter the permission, this update probably would have "timed out" waiting for me, would have assumed permission because I've set it up to do that; and it would have installed automatically. Had that happened, I wouldn't have seen it. It's entirely possible that prior references to this particular KB article have appeared previously with earlier updates, and I just wasn't there to see it. Thus I can't say that the information didn't exist; but I can say that I looked for it and couldn't find it. Maybe you just had to get lucky, which is one reason I felt it should be advertised a bit. I have two other WinXP machines online in the house, and I haven't seen that update arrive on either of the other two; but I also haven't checked to see whether it's been processed on them. I suspect that it has been. John |
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15 May 06 - 10:33 PM (#1741463) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Brendy Check the addons in IE, and look for a file called LegitCheckControl.dll On legit computers (as well as illegit) you will have that file somewhere, if you've been checked. B. |
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16 May 06 - 04:36 PM (#1742054) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: danensis Somedays I'm glad I run Linux, other days I'm very glad I run Linux, John |
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16 May 06 - 04:46 PM (#1742066) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Tannywheeler Boyhowdy, sports fans, this is all Greek to me!!!! I'm what might be termed "technically challenged". Q: If you unknowingly bought a counterfeit, how would you know? Wouldn't it act like a real one, mostly? Or am I even stupidder than I originally claimed? Tw |
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16 May 06 - 06:04 PM (#1742120) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Tannywheeler - Q: If you unknowingly bought a counterfeit, how would you know? The short answer is that when you connect up to the Microsoft site to get the program updates that you need, Microsoft will be able to tell if your program is counerfeit. If a valid license is necessary for the update you request, they'll tell you. Wouldn't it act like a real one, mostly? A counterfeit copy can be made to run, intitally, just like the real one; but will not be able to qualify to get the updates needed to keep it up to date. Microsoft currently will give you what they consider the Critical Security Patches even if you have a counterfeit copy. This is because without the patches your machine is a danger to everyone else who runs a Windows system, and to some extent to everyone who communicates with it regardless of what OS they use. It can be infected, and will infect others, unless a large percentage of users are kept up to date. Without the security patches, your machine can easily be used by others to do malicious things, often without your knowledge, that are harmful to everyone. Additional updates to the system, that address performance issues or fix "operating bugs" are available only to those who verify that their copies are legit. Just as running a 10 year old Linux system, with no updates, would not be "efficient" when most others have more current systems, running "original WinXP," which is now about 10 years old, prevents you from getting all the joy and fun that others experience. An additional concern for those who might have counterfeit copies is that most counterfeits are "OEM" versions. Microsoft does not provide technical support for individuals with OEM versions. The OEM manufacturer is responsible for providing that support. As Microsoft finds OEM makers who are counterfeiting, they tend to disappear - often abruptly. This often leaves the holder of a counterfeit OEM version with no one to provide support, should it be needed. If your counterfeit was made from a legitimate OEM copy by someone other than the OEM manufacturer, the OEM maker can identify it as a counterfeit just like Microsoft can, and probably will refuse to provide support for it. John |
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24 Jun 06 - 08:29 PM (#1768380) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: John O'L On 29th May I installed the Genuine Advantage Validation Tool, and was then required on 2nd June to instal (or enable?) the Genuine Advantage Notification, which would, as I understood it, notify me if my version of Windows was counterfeit. I never received any such notification, but my firewall tells me that the device has been contacting Microsoft on a regular basis ever since. Anyone got any idea why that should be going on? Should I be concerned, or am I just being paranoid? |
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25 Jun 06 - 02:36 AM (#1768505) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas John O'L - One of the main places people find the Validation Tool is when they sign up for updates. You normally sign up to allow Microsoft to download and install updates automatically as they become available. Microsoft doesn't call your machine when updates are available, and the privacy policies with the services discussed in this thread assert that they won't call you to get info about you. Your machine has to "call home" to tell them it's available to be updated, so a scheduler on your machine attempts to contact Microsoft on a regular schedule to see if there are new updates. I believe the normal schedule is once per week, but if your machine is turned off, or your internet connection isn't available at the regular time, it may attempt an out-of-schedule contact "at the first opportunity," so it could try to make the contact at less regular times. A recent newsletter noted that Microsoft was updating 300,000,000+ machines monthly. That's quite a bit of traffic, so "retries" may not be too uncommon, which could mean you might see more than the minimum scheduled attempts. Most people find it convenient to give their firewall permission to allow the contact with the update server "whenever" so that they don't see the notices everytime a contact with the update site is attempted. You probably do want the Critical Updates, so you need to permit the contacts in order to get them. John |
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25 Jun 06 - 05:10 AM (#1768550) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Dave Earl John in Kansas said:- As Microsoft finds OEM makers who are counterfeiting, they tend to disappear - often abruptly. This often leaves the holder of a counterfeit OEM version with no one to provide support, should it be needed. Too bloody right!!. Thats just what happened to me. I had to pay £92 to Microsoft to get a legitimate validation key and XP Pro CD. I'm now worried that the Office Proffesional progs that came as OEM too will also need validation. That side of things still gets the updates and seem to work properly. Does anyone know if the validation issues discussed here apply to Office as well as XP? Dave Earl |
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25 Jun 06 - 05:32 AM (#1768556) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: John O'L But John, I have always had little balloons pop up from the system tray to tell me when updates were ready for my computer, so I must have had my firewall configured to allow whatever communication was necessary for that to happen. What I don't understand is the need for a tool which has only one purpose, to continue communicating with Microsoft weeks after that purpose has been fulfilled. I have always trusted Microsoft, in fact for three weeks I have been mindlessly clicking 'Yes' to allow the tool access to the internet, until this morning it suddenly occured to me to wonder what it could possibly be saying after all this time. |
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25 Jun 06 - 05:40 AM (#1768561) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: GUEST I have the same problem and managed to resolve it by getting an "Academic Version" - sames functionality - but much cheaper that the "Standard" XP Pro version. Total costs £68.00 (UK) (inc postage)and delviered in 2 days. Good Luck |
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25 Jun 06 - 05:53 AM (#1768567) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: GUEST,Jon I had been singing the praises of Suse Linux in this thread. I got 10.1 and I've had problems with the online update. I found some details here One thing that really gets me was reading this: As we shipped SUSE Linux 10.1 we were aware of these quality issues and had already planned to release a online update. At that time we were confident that it would be possible to use all updater frontends to install this update. I don't understand why they released it in that state with a suspect updater - there was no hury for the release and as far as I understand it, the biggest compliant with the old update system was that you couldn't install a new package from there - you had to install the old package from CD/DVD and then go online for patches - a minor problem compared to this. I couldn't fix my problems the way suggested there - I think when I added a 3rd party update source the damn thing deleted the official update source in it's own tangle. Whatever, I wound up in a situation where I could not add any source I needed to get the patches to update the updater!!! and finished up doing the job by manual RPM updates, ignoring loads or dependency errors and hoping the job came out right. It seemed to have come right but now once in a while I'm getting random reboots, often when I use the KDE equivilant of Windows File Manage and am not sure if it's something I mucked up or whether a patch introduced a problem... Oh well, if things looked OK, I was going to update folkinfo to use php 5 and update everything else but as things stand, I'm leaving well alone. Hope this is just a one off blip with them. I expect and have had excellent reliability with 9.2 and I'm quite annoyed about these hassles. |
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25 Jun 06 - 01:22 PM (#1768753) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas John O'L The small program that's installed on your machine when you verify the authenticity of your Windows installation and arrange for automatic updates includes several things. 1. The "verifier" creates a unique encrypted "Key" number that is placed on your computer, or reads the key already on your machine, and checks the harware to make sure that nothing has changed. The key is generated by an examination of your computer, and tells who built your machine; the Product Number and Serial number of your Windows; and PnP identities, Serial numbers, and BIOS versions of the main hardware components present on the machine. The encrypted Key number describes the combination of machine and Microsoft software in fairly complete terms. It does not identify who owns and/or operates the machine, or where it's located; but it allows that specific hardware/software configuration to be identified whenever it communicates with Microsoft (or with an OEM builder who provides support for it). Once the key has been created and placed on the machine, its main use is simply to tell if the specific Windows product is still on the same machine for which it was purchased. 2. When the verifier has accepted your configuration, a "downloader" allows downloading updates, in bits and pieces if necessary. 3. An "installer" allows unattended installation of updates after a download is completed and all the new pieces are on your machine. 4. A "scheduler" sets up a time for your machine to check in again later to see if new updates are available. You are probably getting the firewall notice each time the scheduler asks to see if new updates are available, since that's a new connection to Microsoft for each visit. When you just click ok to allow the connection, it's apparently a one-time-only permission, so you'll be asked again the next time a new connection is needed. You probably can put the connection into your firewall's setup to "always allow" that particular connection, which would eliminate the notices, but you'll have to talk to your firewall to see if that can be done. Once you approve the connection, it's good until the communication is complete and any new updates are on your machine; but this doesn't necessarily happen in a single stream of bits. As long as the connection that was approved remains open, with your machine set to send or receive another packet, even if the machine is shut down and later restarted, it can still be the "same connection," and a download usually can resume where it left off. Some of the downloads have been very large1, and most of them are at least a few MB. The downloader manages getting the files needed for an update, and closes the connection when the needed download(s) are finished. When a download is complete, the installer pops up a notice that it's ready to install the update. There are minor variations in how you can tell the installer "how automatic" it should be, but in the most common "install automatically" setup, if the machine is in use the installer will wait until you click on the notice and tell it to proceed, or will wait until the machine is "idle" and then proceed automatically. I believe you can still set it up to always require you to manually approve each update installation, if you're really paranoid. For an update that requires a reboot, a popup will warn that a reboot is about to occur, and you can defer the reboot if you wish. If you don't tell it to wait, after a pause of a few minutes the reboot should proceed automatically. The next time the scheduler initiates a new connection, all of these components run again. If the verifier finds no changes to the machine or to Microsoft programs, it will proceed to look for and download updates. Some minor hardware changes are accepted and a new "Key" is set on your machine without your participation. If a significant change, especially to machine hardware, is found, the verifier may notify you and ask you to re-verify. Note that the verification happens every time you connect to Microsoft for downloads. You participate in the verification only when you first set it up, or when there's a question about changes in your setup, but it runs each time you connect to the download site. 1 Microsoft's estimate of time required to download the SP1 update to my machine, after it checked my connection speed, was something over 200 hours. My experience has been that I need to add about 50% to their estimates. I ordered the CD. John |
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25 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM (#1768852) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas I should have noted to John O'L that the web page at which one connects for "Microsoft Updates" is a different page than where one goes for "Windows Updates." The firewall may have been setup to permit the older connection, but needs a new entry to open the new page without a warning. Breton Cap - The "bait" to get people to switch from the older Windows Update to the newer programs(s) is the convenience of getting all your Microsoft updates from a single connection. I have not seen any official comment indicating that Office programs are "revalidated" at each update connection. A new Office installation does need to be "registered" which amounts to a one-time validation. Failure to register results in a "crippled" program with some functions disabled. I suspect some people may just use them that way, although I haven't found any official description of what works and what doesn't. Since Microsoft does give Critical Updates to users with counterfeit Windows, the same policy would be expected for Critical Updates to Office. There haven't been very many of those. There have been a number of non-critical "feature updates" that might not be available for phony Office setups, but I haven't noticed any that would be a real handicap to most users if omitted from an otherwise fully functional Office program. The bottom line answer is that I don't know, despite some poking around, what the Microsoft policy is on verification of "productivity software." I think they're most concerned at present with the 40 - 50%+ of the 300,000,000+ Windows copies that are known counterfeits, but that doesn't give much assurance they won't deny you some downloads. John |
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25 Jun 06 - 05:49 PM (#1768940) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Stilly River Sage There are some good OEM deals to be had--it is a big "gray market" out there regarding software. Fairly recently I lost money on one, not because the software didn't work or was bogus, but because the seller himself was evidently bogus and eBay shut him down right after I sent the money order. They didn't do a very good job of filtering out a bad apple (seems the account was set up in one name but money went to another, and they must have finally caught on). If I buy OEM any more it will have to be with someone with a huge track record, who takes PayPal or credit cards, and where there is more of a backup. You regularly find vendors who won't use PayPal (it's a pain in the ass--I can understand why) but this one, in hind-sight, was skating on the edge of credibility. It looked like I was purchasing from someone who was breaking out on his own after dealing with a partner--it happens, but it won't happen to me again. It wasn't a remarkably high or low price--the guy was clever, keep it in the market range and wait to hook a buyer. SRS |
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26 Jun 06 - 07:22 PM (#1769667) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: John O'L John - Thank you for your time & effort. I appreciate it. I think I'm happy with what you say but there are still questions unresolved. My two children each have their own user identity on this computer. The Genuine Advantage Notification wants to connect with Microsoft whenever one of the kids logs off and and the computer is logged onto the administrator's identity. That seems to me to be somewhat beyond its proper range of function. When I downloaded the Validation Tool I didn't change to auto-update. I receive notification of high-priority updates and then download the ones I want myself. I prefer to select my own updates when I do my weekly computer-housework. (I don't think this is from paranoia, I just like to kid myself that I have some control over, and understanding of, this stranger who has taken up residence in my home.) |
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26 Jun 06 - 07:34 PM (#1769676) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas John O'L - Understand the feeling. Sometimes get the same, but with a half-dozen machines and some unusual software that requires frequent checks for updates, I've given up and automated everything I can. We have these machines to use and enjoy. Sometimes the joy gets thin, but "what feels good" is still the goal. John |
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07 Jul 06 - 02:49 PM (#1778392) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: GUEST,Dale First, I have a new machine. The copy of WinXP is genuine. My first days with the machine have been taken up with intstalling old favorites, with a great deal of dialup time taken up with installing various updates, including Microsoft. I usually check out what the updates are before installing. This morning after a good many hours of download time here comes the "Wonderfully Genuine" XP update. Being a sometimes stubborn person, I decided NOT to install the update, just on general principles. So here comes the Second point. What happens if I refuse to install it? Will "they" eventually figure that out and refuse to update my machine further? Even as I am typing this, the Microsoft shield pops up in the tray saying it is downloading updates. I did read the above comments reasonably well, but did not notice a discussion of the consequences of this mildy defiant act. |
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07 Jul 06 - 04:51 PM (#1778459) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Dale - Only updates that Microsoft considers "Critical" for your security are automatically downloaded. As long as you remain registered to receive updates they will continue being downloaded to you. If I understand what you're describing, your "mildly defiant" act only declined to install an update that had been received and is on your machine ready to be installed. I'm not setup to see an indication that a download is in progress. I only see a shield when a download is complete and is ready to be installed. Your setup may be different than mine. The normal message I get when a download is complete offers an "Install Now" or "Install Later." I believe there is a "Never Install this update" option to allow you to reject a particular update completely, but I haven't looked for it. I don't even see the popup shield in some cases, since "no response" allows the installation to proceed automatically after a short time. Depending on which mildly defiant action you took, the download may still install when the machine is idle, it may sit on your machine until the next download is ready to install, and may be installed along with a subsequent one the next time you give permission to install, or it may be downloaded again the next time the update system looks to see what updates are not installed on your machine. Even while you're signed up for automatic updates, you can go directly to the update site and check for available updates. You must do that to get any "optional" updates. The automatic system will look to see if you have already "been there" and have everything before it re-sends an update, and should not re-send anything you already have, so if you've missed installing one that's considered critical it probably will (re-send and) offer it again. When you click "Start" you should have an icon on the popup menu for "Windows Update" and probably a separate one for "Microsoft Update." The Windows Update button will connect you to the web site where you can manually get updates to Windows. The Microsoft Update button will take you to a site where you can manually get updates to all Microsoft programs on your machine. (Using either of these, you can look at the optional updates that are not offered by the automated system.) If you don't have the Microsoft Update button, you should look for "Office Updates" occasionally (search "download" at any Microsoft web site). If you're curious, your C:\Windows folder should contain an "uninstall" file for most updates that have been applied to your machine. (My current count here is 111 files.) The files are "Hidden/System" files, so you may have to turn on the "view hidden and system files" at Tools in Windows Explorer to see them. The file names are generally like the recent "$NtUninstallKB912919$" with no file extension. The KB912919 identifies a "Knowledge Base" article that you can look up at the Microsoft web site to see information about that specific update. (Putting the number, in this case KB912919, into any search box at a Microsoft site is usually sufficient, although if you find an "Advanced Search" where you can check the "Search Knowledge Base" box it works best. Results may be mainly "S-documents" [Security Bulletins] that contain links to the KB articles.) On the off-chance that you might actually want to uninstall an update, you should NOT attempt to use these "uninstall" records directly. Don't mess with them. Go to the KB articles for complete uninstall instructions, if you need remove a patch. Note also that some patches cannot be uninstalled (except by reinstalling Windows and starting over). John |
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07 Jul 06 - 07:30 PM (#1778574) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: JohnInKansas Dale - addendum I just received a newsletter that says that Microsoft has released (June 26) a new version of the Windows validation utility that "reduces" the frequency for the call-home thing. For a while, the program would attempt to connect every time you rebooted. (I probably didn't notice since I seldom reboot more than monthly, although the "every boot" call may be only for those who haven't confirmed good.) The new version reduces the frequency, but doesn't eliminate it entirely. They still promise to nag you frequently until you do the full confirmation thing. You should get the new version soon, if you haven't already. Since they claim to have rewritten the EULA to "clarify" what the utility does, you may be asked to agree with the EULA before the new version installs. On the down side, a new worm has been found that imitates notices from or about the validation program to install malware that could disable your firewall, rip off info from your computer, and/or use your computer for SPAM or DDOS attacks. Reported incidents seem to originate mostly with AOL "instant messages" (usually disguised as being forwarded by "a buddy") claiming to be about the validation program but actually installing malware if you click on anything in the message. John |
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08 Jul 06 - 11:01 AM (#1778909) Subject: RE: Tech: WinXP New Deal From: Stilly River Sage I helped a neighbor with her Norton Antivirus (wouldn't let her renew it because there is a corrupt file). I put in a free Antivirus (AVG) for now and we'll try something else this afternoon because she still wants Norton. I went in to see if she had been updated (we set her up for automatic update) but nothing new had downloaded since July 5 of 2005, the LAST time I did all of this and helped her put a new Norton Antivirus on her machine. She had a couple of hours of modem time as 33 updates downloaded and installed. There was a new automatic update program prior to all of those downloads--and maybe it will work this time. Last year we set up the validation program with the correct numbers so this year it didn't ask for them again. So much for a mild resistance to MS. Even with it in place the stuff didn't download. So who can say what will happen, or if any machine will notice? Good luck with the new machine! SRS |