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BBC - No Music License - UK

15 May 06 - 12:13 PM (#1740985)
Subject: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: GUEST,you go away for a couple of days!

just got back from a weekend festival to hear that although all the venues had to get licenses or not go ahead the BBC manage to bypass by getting staff to stand in for the general public - oh the hard times of old England .....


REPORT:-

BBC bypasses live music license law
The BBC is being forced to fill its audience for Top of the Pops with staff members after discovering it has no licence to stage live music for the general public.

Director-general Mark Thompson has sent an email plea to staff asking them to attend a recording of the pop show on Wednesday. The BBC had been unaware it was doing anything wrong by putting on music entertainment at Television Centre in west London.

However, the Corporation received legal advice confirming that it is in breach of the Licensing Act. The public are now barred from attending studio shows which feature live music.

Programmes affected include Strictly Dance Fever and Later... with Jools Holland.

Mr Thompson's email was sent to staff on Thursday afternoon - only a few hours before TOTP is being recorded.

The email read: "We're asking for your help, and also hoping we can offer you some fun at the same time. A new law came into force recently which requires some public entertainment to be licensed. The BBC always seeks to operate fully within the law.

"Contrary to advice originally received, it now appears that the BBC needs a licence for certain audience shows. We are in the process of obtaining this. But while we do so, we need to introduce some restrictions on recording studio shows in front of members of the public.

"We can however use audiences drawn from members of staff only, and we're therefore inviting you to attend the programmes affected - from Strictly Dance Fever to Top of the Pops - which need recording during the time that it will take us to resolve the situation."

It invited recipients to click on an email link to register their attendance. The show features The Ordinary Boys, Katie Melua and the Beautiful South.

BBC programmes Friday Night With Jonathan Ross and National Lottery Jet Set are also affected because they include a live music act every week. Rather than replace the audience for these shows, the BBC is considering pre-recording the music slots to get around the law.


15 May 06 - 06:14 PM (#1741322)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: GUEST

i think this is the same thing which has affected paul o gradys show. he records it in the BBC and has been told that the audience is not allowed to sing along when he plays his organ. just out of interest is this the same 'two in a bar' ruling? i just dont see why we have to pay extra for live music or sessions etc. I welcome the pubs that ignore the silly rules


15 May 06 - 06:36 PM (#1741341)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Mr Happy

'The BBC had been unaware it was doing anything wrong
by putting on music entertainment at Television Centre in west London.'

Hit nail on head- They & anyone else doin live music are not doinganything wrong

its the law that's wrong!!


15 May 06 - 07:45 PM (#1741375)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Folkiedave

This is also discussed in this thread....

here:

and also here:

here

Clearly the law is barmy.

Interestingly - as a campaigner against it - it seems more and more summer events will fall foul.

Post them on here!!

Dave


16 May 06 - 05:02 AM (#1741605)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: pavane

Note: There is a specific thread here for events which have been affected by the licencing act.

Also, the 'silly rules' could land the publican and/or organiser with a fine of up to 20k pounds. This draconian penalty seems specifically designed to stop the law (or it's interpretation) being challenged.

Safer not to have any music, then (except Morris dancing, of course)


16 May 06 - 06:06 AM (#1741631)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: GUEST,padgett

Terry Wogan keeps making veiled comments on this hopefully soemone in govt will take heed of whats amiss

The morris dancing is down to certain individulas sticking up for English tradition among others Doc Rowe gave evidence to committee members or certain traditional events would be in jeopardy!

I do not understand the law at all personally


16 May 06 - 06:11 AM (#1741634)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: greg stephens

As I understand it the exemption only applies when the Morris dancers are actually dancing. If the band plays a little introduction before they start, an offence has occurred. I hope the police are keeping a serious eye on this: I have observed on occasion that sometimes the dancers stop and chat and have a beer, and at that moment a melodeon player plays another tune to himself. This is also illegal, and needs jumping on quickly.


16 May 06 - 06:19 AM (#1741637)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: IanC

Greg

Not the case. The exmption even covers incidental music after the dancing has finished.

:-)


16 May 06 - 06:23 AM (#1741639)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: greg stephens

Are you sure about that IanC? I thought the wording of the original exemption suggested that the music had to accompany dancing. Maybe its been re-drafted? How long after the dancing can the music continue and still be legal, could you clarify? How about when the dancers have actually left the premises, for example.


16 May 06 - 06:28 AM (#1741642)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: IanC

If the dancers have left, the music wouldn't be incidental.

:-)


16 May 06 - 06:48 AM (#1741646)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: greg stephens

Does the exemption apply to step-dancing, or only Morris dancing?


16 May 06 - 06:51 AM (#1741648)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: IanC

Morris dancing or similar dancing. Pays yer money and takes yer choice.

:-)


16 May 06 - 07:02 AM (#1741653)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: JohnInKansas

If the BBC can record a performance and broadcast it without a license, one wonders if the famous "7-second delay" used for making sure everything's "politically correct" would qualify as a "recording."

If an audience outside a "practice area" or "recording session" overhears (accidentally) the music, would a license be required?

The performers would be playing for the purpose of creating a recording, and the audience would be listening to the recording?

Then if the delay could be edged back to, say 7 microseconds, ...

(Just trying to get in the spirit of the ridiculous, and offering my sympathy and condolences from across the way.)

John


16 May 06 - 08:06 AM (#1741693)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Dave Hanson

I think ' Top of the Pops ' would be exempt anyway as the act specificaly says ' music '

eric


16 May 06 - 08:53 AM (#1741746)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Folkiedave

Rather than argue about it - here it is in full............

The "Morris dancing exemption" is Schedule 1 Part 2 para 11:
        
The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of-
(a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance, or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a).

It could be argued that the session in the (unlicensed) pub is an integral part of the performance too, I suppose. I'd ertainly argue that.

But as this thread points out - here
Sheffield City Council have clearly declared ceroc, sequence-dancing, street dance, breakdancing, belly dancing, salsa and tango, arabic dance, line dancing, hop hop, etc "dancing of a similar nature". They also refused to prosecute themselves (surprise, surprise!!) for holding an illegal event - for most of the music was amplified and that is clearly excluded. (They refused to declare the traditional Lion Dance "of a similar nature" and instead suggested to local stadium owners that they applied for a variation on their licence. That of course would bring mega-bucks to the council.

Whilst this is clearly not a legal precedent it puts people in Sheffield in a strong position should the council wish to enforce this part of the act again in a less liberal way. And dancers from other towns may wish to point to this too.


16 May 06 - 08:58 AM (#1741750)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: pavane

What if the Lion dance were to be held OUTSIDE the stadium?


16 May 06 - 09:36 AM (#1741781)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Folkiedave

Inside the stadium the law would allow music since it is incidental to the main business of the afternoon - in the case of Sheffield United - fast flowing, entertaining football similar to that played by Barcelona. But dancing cannot be regarded as incidental.(To be honest I assumed the Council would go for the Morris Dance exemption - but they didn't because it could be a nice little earner. Cost of licence goes on rateable value).

Outside the stadium it is whether the council regards it a similar to Morris dancing. No cost involved of course.

I'll get mi anorak.


16 May 06 - 11:52 AM (#1741847)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Doktor Doktor

...." a melodeon player plays another tune to himself. This is also illegal, and needs jumping on quickly ... "
The Doktor's Memsahib wishes to second this. As far as she's concerned, his melodeon should be throughly jumped on. Regularly.


16 May 06 - 02:25 PM (#1741965)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: r.padgett

What aload of stupid legal draftsmen who could not see what they were really trying to accomplish ~ simply excessive noise which becomes a nuisance

Never ever leave anything to the discretion of local authorities they will invariably err on the 'safe' side instead of using the power of common sense


16 May 06 - 03:02 PM (#1741985)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Geoff the Duck

Can we suggest to the BEEB that they put a morris team centre stage for all events form J.Woss through TOTP to the Weather Forecast (just to be on the safe side), and have the rest of the show just incidental to the performance.
I could also act as Morris Monitor and hand out beer in the interval.....
Quack!
Geoff the (Whitby Scratch Morris) Duck.


16 May 06 - 04:16 PM (#1742035)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler

I notice that the NME this week has an advert for The Young Knives new offering which features a picture of John Slinger from John o' Gaunt Morris. Is this in preparation for adding a Morris aspect to all new music so that the license is by-passed?


16 May 06 - 04:39 PM (#1742058)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: squeezeboxhp

to geoff the duck
would this include longsword at weddings

ken KRD


16 May 06 - 04:43 PM (#1742064)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Geoff the Duck

What? On the BBC?
Quack!
GtD.


16 May 06 - 04:49 PM (#1742071)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Folkiedave

I think they were originally concerned with stopping llegal raves. This is why the penalties for a breach of the law are so harsh.

Licensing Act 2003 Part 7 s.136(4)
A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding £20,000, or to both.


I can remember some of the objections as they came up - when the original bill was published for example churches as venues were included. The Three Choirs Festival went barmy of course.

Why an exemption for things on moving vehicles? Well, had they not had that clause in then Notting Hill Carnival would have been banned! (This had the incidental effect of allowing the Sultan's Elephant Procession to go ahead in London recently).

I feel - and I know I am not alone in this - that the World Cup with throw up a lot of contradictions. We have seen a lot of these already wtih Belper Carnival being cancelled.

Keep an eye out locally and once an event is over contact the local council and ask why an event went ahead in clear breach of the Act. Sheffield City Council are already saying the Act is confusing and there are chunks of it that are open to interpretation. In fact there are some but not what Sheffield City Council means!!

The problem is they are very reluctant to prosecute and I suspect this is why Councils are looking for excuses not to. They are not obliged to prosecute anyway of course.


18 May 06 - 08:09 PM (#1743576)
Subject: RE: BBC - No Music License - UK
From: Folkiedave

Tonight's (Thursday May 18th) PM programme - 5.00 pm - 6.00 pm gave the government a right kicking.

Good.