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BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread

27 May 06 - 01:24 PM (#1748561)
Subject: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

We had a thread about the film The Wind That Shakes The Barley.
Some contributors insisted I respond to issues beyond that of the film.
Sorry to everyone else.

This was the most recent challenge to me.


""
I am native, Boise, Idaho. Clearly you support the British remaining in Ireland and defend their crimes against it's people, please answer.

Yeah I noticed to that you ignore the tricky questions. So why post if you only want it one way ?
""

The above was anonymous
I only support the North remaining part of Britain while the majority in the North want that.
Like every one this side of the Irish sea I will be overjoyed when that day comes.
There will be parties, fireworks and dancing in the street.

I do not defend any crmes by anyone.

Next question please.

27 May 06 - 01:34 PM (#1748571)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

This from Divis Sweeney.

Keith in front of other members as my witness can I ask you these questions once again, simply answer them yes or no.

What would you do if your country was invaded by another countries army. Would you rise up or lay down ?

Have I not on more than one ocassion showed you that the IRA said sorry to it's victims for their campaign ?


Have I not asked you to admit that the British army were guilty of murder of innocent people in Ireland ?

Please Keith answer these simple three questions before more build up.



If invaded I would resist Divis, but only for so long.
Britain was invaded shortly before ireland was.
By William The Bastard and his Norman army.
I do not feel the need to explode any bombs now. Like most people I understand that centuries old history is just that, and just try to make the present world better.
And killing is not the way.


Yes the IRA has said sorry.
I think that is a breakthrough.
I welcome it. Thank you.


I admit that innocent people have been killed by the Army.
Which cases would you call murder Sweeney?

27 May 06 - 01:36 PM (#1748572)
Subject: BS: Irish history and Keith A of Hertford
From: GUEST,Bente

Keith in another thread you stated several times that you would not answer questions that were put to you about your views on Ireland unless another thread was started on that subject. Well Keith here it is. Get busy.

27 May 06 - 01:38 PM (#1748577)
Subject: RE: BS: Irish history and Keith A of Hertford
From: Dave the Gnome

Elves - please combine this thread and Keiths - Ta.

Done.
-Joe-

27 May 06 - 01:39 PM (#1748579)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Elves - similar comment to the one titled "Keith A etc." Please combine.

27 May 06 - 01:42 PM (#1748580)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Normandy does not rule us any more Keith. Does it?

England still rules in Northern Ireland. Doesn't it?

I agree about the violence but but I don't think your first argument holds much water.

Just my bobs worth.

DtG

27 May 06 - 02:02 PM (#1748593)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

The Normans defeated and occupied Britain.
They retained lands in France which were later lost.
William made himself king.
The Normans never left.

27 May 06 - 02:06 PM (#1748596)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
I previously made this comparison about old wrongs.

You said you are from the States (or one of you did)
Are you a Native American?
If so your lands were invaded more recently than Ireland was.
Do you think that you should explode bombs in shopping malls and railroad stations because of that? Backshoot young police officers and service people, on and off duty?

Are you a Mexican American from California?
Then your state and others were taken by force from your ancestors much more recently than any part of Ireland.
Your Californian gold financed the industrialisation of USA. Your histories would have been very different.

Should you start killing the Gringos now?

27 May 06 - 02:08 PM (#1748598)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

USA does still rule California.

27 May 06 - 02:15 PM (#1748601)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry, don't follow that, Keith. Probably me but can you explain what USA ruling California has to do with it? Last I heard Californians were quite happy with the situation.

Cheers

DtG

27 May 06 - 02:24 PM (#1748606)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Keith were you a full time serving soldier in Ulster or just a territorial ?

27 May 06 - 02:25 PM (#1748607)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Yes they are.
It was too long ago to be worth killing people over now.
The question was what should you do if invaded.
I am saying that after a few centuries, there is no one to exact revenge on.

27 May 06 - 02:27 PM (#1748609)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley

Right so the Irish members on this site should come back in two hundred years and then they will be cured ?

27 May 06 - 02:28 PM (#1748610)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente,
I am a school teacher and have been since 1972.
I was never a regular soldier.
The TA was never used in NI.
We only trained to resist the Warsaw Pact armies.

27 May 06 - 02:29 PM (#1748612)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Not what I am saying Billy.

27 May 06 - 02:37 PM (#1748613)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Sorry Dave I am being overwhelmed a bit.
Yes the Californians are happy to be ruled by USA.
The majority of Irish people in the North are happy to be ruled by Britain.
You, me and everyone else in Britain wish they would change their mind .
Luckily demography will achieve that soon.

27 May 06 - 02:44 PM (#1748615)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: ard mhacha

Keith that hole is getting deeper, boarding it up would be a good idea now, too late I think it has caved in.

27 May 06 - 02:47 PM (#1748616)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Thanks Keith. You more than most members seem to hold a strong interest in Irish affairs. You continuously attack the IRA. Only on occasions when pushed do you show any abhorrence to the loyalist paramilitaries. You constantly refer to Republicans bombing shopping centres or railway stations and shooting young policemen and soldiers in the back. Have you ever referred to the loyalists for placing bombs in public houses or attacks such as Greysteel ? And the fact it was loyalists that shot dead the first policeman in the troubles and also the last one ? If you have can you please refer me to the thread or post ? If you were Irish and living in Northern Ireland during the troubles how do you think you would have reacted to some of the events other members listed ? he IRA ceasefire is near ten years old and last year they said they disbanded.
Do you not accept this ? Or do you think they should still be hounded as your views tend to lead me to believe.

27 May 06 - 02:51 PM (#1748619)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley

The majority of Irish people in the North are happy to be ruled by Britain.

So why has Sinn Fein the second largest vote in Northern Ireland. These Catholics don't appear too happy or does their voice not count ?

27 May 06 - 02:52 PM (#1748620)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: ard mhacha

Bente, Do you not think it is time to give Keith a fools pardon,reading this latest load of tripe is proof enough that this man has lost the plot.

27 May 06 - 02:53 PM (#1748622)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente, I do accept it.
I despise Loyalist AND Republican paramilitaries.
There are no Mudcat contributors who argue the case for Loyalist paramilitaries, so I have no one to debate with about them.

Thanks for your concern Ard.

Keith.

27 May 06 - 02:54 PM (#1748624)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Billy,
Second comes after first.

27 May 06 - 02:55 PM (#1748625)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

ard mhacha, I only want answers to questions. It was he who said in another thread he wanted to answer questions in another thread on Ireland. I agree I am not really getting the answers I require, he is tending slightly to run of course.

27 May 06 - 02:57 PM (#1748626)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Arde,
Just calling what I say tripe does not give me anything to reply to.
Please give examples of where I am wrong.

27 May 06 - 03:00 PM (#1748628)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente, not wanted to answer, but prepared to give in to all the requests.
It is a bit lonely actually.

27 May 06 - 03:02 PM (#1748629)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

So those who argue the case for Republican paramilitaries should not speak out in what they believe in Keith ? I note you feel quiet as ease having your speak, which I feel is only proper and correct. So really what you are saying is when they say sorry or want only peace in Ireland that is still them arguing the case for Republican paramilitaries ?

27 May 06 - 03:11 PM (#1748632)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente,
Everyone is free to speak out for what they believe.
Everyone is also free to say that they disagree.
That is debate.
Your final sentence is wrong. I am not saying that.
Keith.

27 May 06 - 03:29 PM (#1748635)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Keith you said that the IRA robbed the Northern Bank and that they were involved in acts of terrorism in Columbia and they killed a man in a bar fight in Belfast. You were certain of all these. Can you provide proof, not hearsay that they were ? I cannot find any information on the net that any member or ex member of the IRA was ever charged with these crimes you placed at their door. The Northern Ireland Police force is recognised as the most advanced police force in Europe and they still haven't found the proof that you have. Please elaborate and provide your proof.

27 May 06 - 03:31 PM (#1748636)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente,
You must have been on the forum a long time to know so much about me.
I am honoured that your first ever post was to me.
Keith.

27 May 06 - 03:36 PM (#1748640)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Keith we were in touch last year ?

27 May 06 - 03:40 PM (#1748644)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Glad I made such an impact on you that you don't remember me !

27 May 06 - 03:45 PM (#1748646)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente,
I can not prove who did the bank job (obviously) and never said I could.
I did point out that the governments, police and security services of both Britain and Ireland said that they did.
I also noted that a Republican in the South was found to have bank notes to the value of $ 3 Million US in a bin in his back yard.
Not proof but...
Another Republican tried to burn so many banknotes that clouds of them emerged from his chimney and covered the neighbourhood with singed money.

The bar killing would be the McCartney murder. The IRA admitted that their members did it and offered to shoot them.

I forget now what became of the Columbian suspects.
They did stand trial.
They said that they were in the terrorist controlled area to do some bird watching and not to train them in explosive techniques.
It was coincidence that they started using far more sophisticated bombs then, against ordinary people in the street.

Keith.

27 May 06 - 03:47 PM (#1748648)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Sorry I do not remember you Bente.
I just clicked on your list of posts.
Today's was the first.
I expect you had a different handle.

27 May 06 - 03:58 PM (#1748655)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

So really you just repeated what other people thought.

YOU did not say on this site that the IRA were active in Columbia ? Were any of the notes this man was burning found to be from the Northern Bank ? So it was it the IRA or an IRA member that killed Mr. McCartney ?

I was looking up on the net there that the only notes found from the Northern Bank robbery were found in a Belfast police club in Feb 18, 2005. Did you ever blame the police ? If they were found in Sinn Fein's office would you of blamed them ?

27 May 06 - 03:59 PM (#1748657)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Sorry Keith I cannot remember the subject, but it was last summer. I am there somewhere. I am not a messer.

27 May 06 - 04:06 PM (#1748664)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I repeated it because it was relevant to the debate.
As you say, the NI police are good and their opinion should be considered seriously.
The notes could not be traced so there were no charges.
How many legitimate reasons are there for burning or keeping such amounts in a garden bin.

It was an IRA member killed Mr. McCartney.

Keith.

27 May 06 - 04:14 PM (#1748672)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Sadly opinions don't bring convictions. I remember a book maker who burned a lot of money in his back garden in Swindon, don't think he was in the IRA. So it was the IRA that killed Mr. McCartney. Why did the government not tell them that their ceasefire was worthless then ?

27 May 06 - 04:17 PM (#1748677)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente,
THE IRA SAID IT WAS THEIR MEN DID IT
I am prepared to believe them.

27 May 06 - 04:22 PM (#1748682)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

So if the IRA went to kill Mr. McCartney the ceasefire is void. If a british soldier killed his own child, as one did recently, would you say the army sent him to do it ?

27 May 06 - 04:30 PM (#1748688)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente, it was a bar brawl, not an IRA operation.
I never once criticised the IRA over the murder.
We discussed it in several threads.
I did say that Sinn Fein officers were in the wrong if they destroyed evidence of the murder and intimidated witnesses and the bereaved as local Nationalist people said they did.
Keith.

27 May 06 - 04:37 PM (#1748691)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

Sorry I was not aware that Sinn Fein destroyed evidence or intimadated witnesses. That is so wrong. Or were you again going on hearsay ? I heard many things said about the British army on another thread. There is evidence on the web about the things that were said. Really I should dismiss every remark made about them until I find proof on the net. Actually so should you until there is firm proof, not hearsay if you don't mind me saying Keith

27 May 06 - 04:43 PM (#1748694)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I was not there, Bente, but the local people who were there were very angry and there were street demonstrations against IRA and Sinn Fein.
Such demonstrations in a Nationalist area never happened before or since.
Bente, this is all going over old ground.
No one else is interested.
I said I would answer your questions, but please join or use a member's computer so we can do it by PM
Keith.

27 May 06 - 04:49 PM (#1748700)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Anyway, it is Saturday night and I am off out.
All the best to all my readers, and I hope you both have a peaceful night.
Keith.

27 May 06 - 04:53 PM (#1748706)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bente

No Keith I am fine with the answers you gave.

On the news I saw several demo's against internment and murders by British soldiers, those people looked angry too.

Yes it's all going over old ground, as it's an old subject and the only terrorists in Northern Ireland now are loyalist ones. I am not defending the IRA just wanted answers which you gave honestly. Focus on the loyalist's Keith as their terror is ongoing if you hate terrorists so much. IRA is old ground.

27 May 06 - 06:07 PM (#1748749)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L

Well done Kieth. I don't agree with a lot of what you say a lot of the time, but you have done a terrific job here under considerable pressure.

27 May 06 - 06:08 PM (#1748752)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L

Keith, I mean.

27 May 06 - 06:23 PM (#1748760)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

John O'L. Keith under his other mudcat handle.

27 May 06 - 06:33 PM (#1748765)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L

Receipt of anonymous stupidity acknowledged.

27 May 06 - 07:08 PM (#1748784)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Well done Keith. I don't agree with a lot of what you say a lot of the time, but you have done a terrific job here under considerable pressure.

Only someone on a substance would make such a comment !
It's the first thread on mudcat that the member who created it posted one third of the posts himself!

If you can focus man , what great job did he do ?

Blamed people in the wrong?
Repeated rumours without evidence of a conviction?
Made statements, then said, I am only repeating what I heard !

It was sad to read a members post earlier saying that another member was digging a hole for himself, sad because it was true.

I used to enjoy Keith A of Hertford's posts and often agreed with him, found him humerus. As one other member in a pm to me tonight said whilst Discussing another music thread, someone remarked he'd lost the plot. Sadly have to agree. We noted "absence" of other members who once came to his defence.

I tend to leave Irish issues to the Irish. Come back the old Keith minus your dislike of Irishmen, be they terrorists, republicans, musicians or members!

And yes before you start, I am a member, but GUEST in this case is what I would like to be known as. Not getting into this sad silly game which serves no other purpose only to offend and insult Irish members for what they wish to believe in. Live and let live PLEASE.

27 May 06 - 07:19 PM (#1748790)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Here here.

27 May 06 - 07:51 PM (#1748798)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle

Keith humerus...?
i always saw him more as a tibia

28 May 06 - 04:09 AM (#1748899)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bente,
Thanks.
Remember that DtG and I joined a campaign against Loyalist paramilitaries., writing to our MPs and posting their replies.

John O'L,
Your message gave me a real lift. Thank you.

Guest 07.08,
It is most inconsiderate of you not to give a name. Everyone has to read back to the time, but a name is instantly memorable.
Also we can not follow the progression of your argument if we can not identify your previous posts.

You say you receive PMs so you must be a member.Why hide?

Also, people may think that you are me, posing as an anonymous, ignorant bigot to discredit the opposition.

Sorry for so many posts but I set myself up here at the request of Divis, Bente and Guests (you?) to answer questions.

It is legitimate to quote the informed statements of knowledgeable people in debate.

Live and let live? I agree.
Keith.

28 May 06 - 04:59 AM (#1748911)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

28 May 06 - 05:00 AM (#1748913)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Wee Little Drummer,
I have been called worse.
Coccyx?

28 May 06 - 05:41 AM (#1748920)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Sadly Keith none of the others that you may of expected arrived on this thread. Really feel probably much like yourself that it unfortunately has had an adverse effect on your own credibility here. Reading over the above posts all I see is you repeating unsubstantiated remarks you made about the ira and none of them with a court conviction to support your claims. There was nothing new in it. You said you were here to answer questions that were put to you. You may well feel you achieved that. There was no new debate on the Irish issue. Even the ones that normally come in guns blazing, (excuse the pun) stayed away.

Sorry Keith I feel the advice you got to get out of the hole before it caved in appears to have had some merit.

It is legitimate to quote the informed statements of knowledgeable people in debate ?
Yes as long as they favour your cause, you are too quick to dismiss their infomed sources in previous threads.


Live and let live? I agree.
Opps Keith as long as they aren't people that are quoted in informed statements or Irish patriots.

Leave it Keith. Try to get out of the hole again.

28 May 06 - 06:29 AM (#1748926)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,forum browser

I only usually read, leaving the discussion to others.
I think Keith has done well.
He did not ask for help.
He tried to answer all the questions, and did so straight away.
Fair play I say.
Charlotte.

28 May 06 - 06:31 AM (#1748927)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Nor did help arrive !

28 May 06 - 07:15 AM (#1748952)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 04:30 PM

Bente, it was a bar brawl, not an IRA operation.
I never once criticised the IRA over the murder.

I read through your posts from last year and I adivse others to do the same. It shows the above poster to be a lair.


From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:11 PM

Bente,
Everyone is free to speak out for what they believe.

Everyone ? Yes Keith, I think we can go back through your posts and see that remark bite you on the ass.

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:45 PM

I also noted that a Republican in the South was found to have bank notes to the value of $ 3 Million US in a bin in his back yard.
Not proof but...
Another Republican tried to burn so many banknotes that clouds of them emerged from his chimney and covered the neighbourhood with singed money.

So did the police ever say that this money came from the raid ?
Answer NO. I see the only money from the raid was found in a Belfast police club !
Did you blame them ?

The only post that made any sense to me in this thread was the follwing.


Do you not think it is time to give Keith a fools pardon,reading this latest load of tripe is proof enough that this man has lost the plot.

28 May 06 - 07:46 AM (#1748967)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Charlotte,
Thank you for your post.
I hope it will be the first of many.

Billy, why not give links to the posts so that we can see who is the liar?

No, the police could not prove that those millions in banknotes came from the robbery. I said as much.

A small amount of money was found in the police club. Left where it was sure to be found.

Now, today is a lovely day here in Hertford and I am not going to chain myself to the keyboard again.
Also I am going to see Dan McKinnon sing at St.Albans tonight.
I wll try to answer any further questions, but please be patient.
Keith.

28 May 06 - 08:45 AM (#1748987)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Billy,
You have called me a liar.
If you can not do links, give the name of the thread and date/time of my post, and I will do the links for you.
Perhaps you were just carried away with understandable emotion, and would like to take it back?
Keith.

28 May 06 - 08:52 AM (#1748988)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Digs the hole even deeper. At least he has Charlotte and John O'L to keep him company down there. Many of us had friends like that when we were little too!

28 May 06 - 11:21 AM (#1749016)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

I think this multiple personality thread has lost it's appeal. Who said that ? Me you, you or you!

28 May 06 - 12:45 PM (#1749052)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Thank you Keith for answering my questions.

I note you ask which cases I call murder ? innocent men, women and children Keith shot by British soldiers whilst no hostile activity was taking place.

I DO NOT refer to members of the PIRA who were shot whilst on active service against the police or army. That was the risk they undertook.

I did not take part in the above debate as you answered the questions I put to your in the second post.

Thanks for that Keith.

28 May 06 - 05:12 PM (#1749214)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Wolfgang

The majority of Irish people in the North are happy to be ruled by Britain.

So why has Sinn Fein the second largest vote in Northern Ireland. (Billy McKinley)

Reading these two sentences in succession was my Mudcat laugh of the week.

Wolfgang

29 May 06 - 07:54 AM (#1749329)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Sweeney,
The government had little choice but use the army with the level of violence threatening civil war.
They could not be withdrawn until IRA belatedly realised its terror was counter productive.
The British army is better than others but Akeneaton and Ardmhacha are right that soldiers make bad policemen.

I admitted that the army killed innocents but I have 3 caveats.

1 Last year an ex ira man, overcome by guilt, admitted having killed a child in a botched attempt to shoot a soldier.
IRA had lied about this and blamed it on the army.
How many more such cases?

2 We (RIGHTLY) expect high standards of restraint from our law keepers.
Other countries would not be shocked if car thieves crashing through a check point were shot at.

3 Republican paramilitaries killed far more innocents than the army.
Many hundreds more innocent deaths on their hands.

29 May 06 - 07:55 AM (#1749330)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Those who doubt my worrds should look at This chart

29 May 06 - 09:01 AM (#1749363)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

That's great Keith. So do you feel in anyway your Destiny is somewhat fulfilled now ?

As to my own view, The Irish Republican Army came about as a result of the repression your country placed upon my people. And if you think for one moment your posts will ever alter my views on our struggle, they won't. I am a Republican now, and will be to the day I die and I will continue to defend the IRA for the struggle they undertook.

After this very disappointing thread of yours, which didn't seem to strike anyones match. It would probably be best to wait and see do any of your old friends ever decide to come back before you think up another attack on the IRA.

Scratching over old ground serves no purpose, I could start threads on the actions of your army while they were here. What purpose would it serve ?

29 May 06 - 10:59 AM (#1749441)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

He only started the thread to answer the questions you kept asking him.
Now you wish he hadn't.
Knob!

29 May 06 - 11:47 AM (#1749467)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I understand Sweeney.
You have given everything and risked your life for the cause.
You have seen fine men and good friends die bloodily.
Your own leaders have betrayed you for fat British salaries and gold plated British pensions.
You perhaps have blood on your own hands.
You could never accept that it was all for nothing.
That all you have gained and more could have been had years ago with no killings.
I bear you no ill will Seamus.
Good luck,
Keith.

29 May 06 - 12:24 PM (#1749481)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Sorry Divis Sweeney, now realise he could have answered your questions in that The Wind That Shakes The Barley topic. And you did not ask him to start this thread, it was Keith that said he would. Just reading it and seen he felt he could ask questions in it not related to the topic, and did answer some questions that suited him.
Knob!

29 May 06 - 01:00 PM (#1749496)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte

You all demanded that he answer all your questions.
All he did was answer them here instead of messing up the film thread with all this.
I don't know why you all hate him so much.
Charlotte.

29 May 06 - 01:08 PM (#1749499)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

I haven't been around here much in the last while. Just checking in on threads that pique my curiousity. It was, I suppose no surprise to see this one, started by Keith who it seems can't come to terms with the fact that his Government are so capable and adept at commiting evil. His statement above and I quote, "That all you have gained and more could have been had years ago with no killings", goes some way to summing-up Keith. How on earth could you possibly qualify that statement. You are either under the misconception that your Government can do no wrong or you are extremely naive in matters pertaining to the troubles in the north of Ireland over the last thirty odd years. I'm hoping for the latter.

Keith I know that you are fond of stats. So I want to provide you with some information. But before I do I'd like to say that yes I agree that the IRA have over the years been involved in killing and murder. Your charts bear that out. But in cases where charges were made those responsible were tried, convicted and sentenced to prison. I have never known one conviction brought against the security forces who were involved in the killing and murder of innocents in N. Ireland.

You claim that the army was brought to Ulster because of escalating violence, "The government had little choice but use the army with the level of violence threatening civil war", you failed to mention that it was violence against the nationalist population which brought the troops there. The British were pressured to choose an enemy and they chose the Nationalist population in general and the IRA in particular.
As is evident from your charts no protestant civilians have been killed or murdered by the army. You spoke of one ex-IRA member being remorseful over the murder of a child and you wonder how many more killings could be attributed because of false information. I think that is speculation. Many people showed up in allyways with hoods over their heads and noone claimed responsibility. Could they have been the victims of state sponsored terrorism? You see I am speculating here but you get my drift.

The sites I am about to direct you and anyone else who is interested to contain the names of all those killed during the troubles on the Nationalist side by security forces. Some of those listed were IRA volunteers on active service and I agree with Divis when he said that they knew the risks involved. Others were not on active service and killed. The vast majority however were innocent, mostly teenagers who have now become stats.

The first site here were victims of plastic bullets. Remember when Willie Whitelaw formewr secretart of state had thoght plastic bullets too lethal a force to be used against the Toxteth rioters. He had no such pangs of conscience in using them in the north of Ireland.

The next link will take you to information pertaining to those murdered by loyalists in collusion with the security forces.

The final one will take you to information on those killed or murdered by the british army.

The names are in alphabetcal order in groups of four or five. There is a little yellow triangle that will allow you to break-out more detailed information. To this day I don't know of one member of the army ever been convicted with any of these killings. And therein lies the difference Keith.

29 May 06 - 01:41 PM (#1749515)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte

Den that is so wrong to say those things about Keith. I feel he has proven to be a real Intelect and expert on all Irish matters. He is the only one that seems to tell the truth on these Irish threads.
I say well done Keith.

29 May 06 - 01:53 PM (#1749518)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

"An expert on all Irish matters"? What do you say to that Keith? I hope your laughing. Charlotte don't let your "Britishness" cloud your vision. Did you check out the links I provided? I'd bet no.

29 May 06 - 01:57 PM (#1749520)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,hěr-ə-füd hěr-i-füd

Keith looks like quite a fan club here for you. Never saw so much support arrive praising one guy. All these guests seem to want more of you. Will we get it ? Maybe a thread about (MPD) Multiple personality disorder !

29 May 06 - 05:13 PM (#1749609)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Excellent post Den. I know you to be both impartial and a pacifist. And most of all a realist. Very unlikely it will change these beliefs Keith seems to have embedded. As you are aware I welcome peace in my country and glad to put the past behind me. Looking forward to Keith's reply to your post here.

29 May 06 - 05:41 PM (#1749627)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Nothing to add Sweeney.
No more questions?

29 May 06 - 05:48 PM (#1749634)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Thank you Den for bringing the first strain of Logic to what has to be the most monotonous bore of a thread I have read for quite some time.

superfluous Keith.

29 May 06 - 05:57 PM (#1749640)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

No nothing to add Keith to your very successful thread. Glad I was so helpful through my pm to you.

Only one question for you. Are you going to reply to Den ?

29 May 06 - 06:00 PM (#1749647)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Don't reply Divis, it was said the guy lost the plot and dug a hole for himself. It's true. CRACKERS !

29 May 06 - 06:08 PM (#1749652)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Sweeney 1 Keith 0

29 May 06 - 07:39 PM (#1749718)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,hěr-ə-füd hěr-i-füd

Keith, Den posed some questions. Please reply. Or has this guy got you on the ropes, looks like it !

29 May 06 - 07:49 PM (#1749719)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,forum browser

Keith, This was the post Den posted earlier in case you didn't seen it. Are you replying to him ? Is this information here all true Keith ? If so it makes all your information look a little shabby.

I haven't been around here much in the last while. Just checking in on threads that pique my curiousity. It was, I suppose no surprise to see this one, started by Keith who it seems can't come to terms with the fact that his Government are so capable and adept at commiting evil. His statement above and I quote, "That all you have gained and more could have been had years ago with no killings", goes some way to summing-up Keith. How on earth could you possibly qualify that statement. You are either under the misconception that your Government can do no wrong or you are extremely naive in matters pertaining to the troubles in the north of Ireland over the last thirty odd years. I'm hoping for the latter.

Keith I know that you are fond of stats. So I want to provide you with some information. But before I do I'd like to say that yes I agree that the IRA have over the years been involved in killing and murder. Your charts bear that out. But in cases where charges were made those responsible were tried, convicted and sentenced to prison. I have never known one conviction brought against the security forces who were involved in the killing and murder of innocents in N. Ireland.

You claim that the army was brought to Ulster because of escalating violence, "The government had little choice but use the army with the level of violence threatening civil war", you failed to mention that it was violence against the nationalist population which brought the troops there. The British were pressured to choose an enemy and they chose the Nationalist population in general and the IRA in particular.
As is evident from your charts no protestant civilians have been killed or murdered by the army. You spoke of one ex-IRA member being remorseful over the murder of a child and you wonder how many more killings could be attributed because of false information. I think that is speculation. Many people showed up in allyways with hoods over their heads and noone claimed responsibility. Could they have been the victims of state sponsored terrorism? You see I am speculating here but you get my drift.

The sites I am about to direct you and anyone else who is interested to contain the names of all those killed during the troubles on the Nationalist side by security forces. Some of those listed were IRA volunteers on active service and I agree with Divis when he said that they knew the risks involved. Others were not on active service and killed. The vast majority however were innocent, mostly teenagers who have now become stats.

The first site here were victims of plastic bullets. Remember when Willie Whitelaw formewr secretart of state had thoght plastic bullets too lethal a force to be used against the Toxteth rioters. He had no such pangs of conscience in using them in the north of Ireland.

The next link will take you to information pertaining to those murdered by loyalists in collusion with the security forces.

The final one will take you to information on those killed or murdered by the british army.

The names are in alphabetcal order in groups of four or five. There is a little yellow triangle that will allow you to break-out more detailed information. To this day I don't know of one member of the army ever been convicted with any of these killings. And therein lies the difference Keith

29 May 06 - 08:38 PM (#1749736)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: The Curator

Please read this great site I found about the British in South Africa. www.boer.co.za/boerwar/hellkamp.htm Excellent post Den.

30 May 06 - 02:28 AM (#1749838)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Den,
I am sorry I did nt acknowledge your post properly.
By nothing to add I meant that I do not challenge anything you say,
except your assertion that violence wass the only way. I have discussed that with you before pointing out that it worked for the African Americans in late 60s-70s.
I know we are not going to agree on that.
Keith.

30 May 06 - 04:31 AM (#1749872)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: The Curator

Keith A of Hertford
So you do not challenge anything Den has said.

So all those murdered by the British army in the link he provided has shut you up. He was right ?

So all those murdered by loyalists in collusion with the security forces has also shut up up. He was right ?

So all those murdered by the British army shooting plastic bullets has shut you up too. He was right ?

Really Keith A of Hertford   this amounts to Den being right about everything and having shut you up ?

WELL DONE DEN.

Sorry but your thread has only highlighted your own HYPOCRISY


Sorry Keith A of Hertford you clearly lost this debate, and saying you only started this thread to answer questions put to you sounds as it is FOOLHARDY. I have read through your previous posts on other threads. You only started this thread hoping to antagonise other members.

I agree with member ard mhacha, you dug a hole for yourself and it caved in around you ! Should have taken his advice.

WELL SAID ARD MHACHA.

Reading all of this shows me why so many people now have a clearer understanding to the situation that ocurred in Ireland and most of it is down to you. Doubt it's what you set out to achieve!

30 May 06 - 04:38 AM (#1749875)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I started this thread reluctantly because it was demanded I answer questions.
Not to pontificate on history.
When the questions stop it is over.
Did you think those things in Den's post were a complete surprise to me?

30 May 06 - 04:41 AM (#1749877)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Here is a list of bad things done by ALL parties.

No one benefitted from them but the opposition and the undertakers.

30 May 06 - 05:19 AM (#1749891)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: The Curator

Excuse me Keith A of Hertford

You said you only started this thread because you were asked to answer questions. In your words,

We had a thread about the film The Wind That Shakes The Barley.
Some contributors insisted I respond to issues beyond that of the film.

In that thread you answered questions about World War Two and the PIRA. did you not ?

So why suddenly did you feel the need to start another thread when you were happy enough to answer these questions which were not about the film ?

I imagine you had hoped to start a new thread in which you could attack the I.R.A. and as already said, you had hoped other members who supported you in previous threads against the I.R.A. would come on board, which they didn't. In fact all the members posts were actually against you !

Those here who seem to give an understanding to the Irish issue or if you would prefer, support the I.R.A. clearly came out of this thread better than you did reading the above posts. Only my opinion.

30 May 06 - 05:43 AM (#1749899)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

WW2 came into it because it was just 20 or so years after the legacy of the Tans. I used it as an indicator of feelings in Ireland soon after.

30 May 06 - 10:58 AM (#1750064)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Just a tiny pedantic quible Den.
Michael Marley is not listed as an activist, but is listed here as having given his life for Ireland with a Republican Paramiltary unit.

I only noticed because Divis recently gave him as an example of a wholly innocent victim.

30 May 06 - 11:59 AM (#1750099)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,John O'L

Hi Keith,
That's interesting, in which post did Divis list him ? Please refer me to it.
Thanks.

30 May 06 - 12:17 PM (#1750110)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

John O'L is a member.
That makes you a fraud.
Why do you people do that?
The post was in a deleted thread.
I referred to the poor woman who was abducted and murdered for comforting a dying soldier by the Divis Flats, and Sweeney mentioned Mr. Marley because that was in Divis too.

30 May 06 - 12:20 PM (#1750113)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

What is your point Keith? If you actually read the detailed information about the events that lead to the shooting of this boy on the site I linked to you would have seen that he was a member of the Republican youth movement Na Fianna Eireann. If you read my post above you will note that I said the site included the names of active service members killed/murdered on duty and off duty. So are you saying that because he was involved in the republican movement that having several rounds pumped into his back was somehow justified? He was 16 years old running scared by all eyewitness accounts. My own son is 16 and I can't even imagine...

30 May 06 - 12:25 PM (#1750119)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Please give the title of the deleted thread Keith. Maybe Joe will source it for us. Thanks

30 May 06 - 12:29 PM (#1750120)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

A nail bomb had been thrown at the soldiers.
There was forensic evidence and he had previous convictions for weapons and explosives.

30 May 06 - 12:51 PM (#1750129)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I found it



Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:36 AM

You are right Keith people were shot in Divis flats.

Michael Marley 17 Years, Dunville Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot dead on 24 November 1973, by members of the British Army's Royal Green Jackets at Divis Flats.

During a military operation Michael left a friends flat to go to a shop in the complex. He was returning from the shop along Whitehall Row, on the fourth floor of the complex, when he spotted a number of British soldiers approaching him.Moments later several shots rang out and Michael was killed instantly. British Army admitted he was innocent and was not involved in any incident. Oh and they said sorry.

Next history lesson when your ready. Thanks for bringing this up.

30 May 06 - 01:44 PM (#1750137)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte

Den I did not say those things about you and Keith.That was not me and neither was the forum browser person. I cant believe how devious and sneaky some people are. I dont know anything about Ireland so i dont know who is right about all this. I was just cross that everyone was being nasty and no one was sticking up for him. I asked my Dad and he said that the IRA were dangerous and I shouldnt get involved.
Anyway if you see any more Charlottes it wont be me because I am never going to write another post

30 May 06 - 01:52 PM (#1750142)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Ah Charlotte has gone. Should we start a new thread and pick Keith a new name for one of his many admirers !

30 May 06 - 02:04 PM (#1750153)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Leadfingers

NOT taking sides , just sneaking a 100th post !!

30 May 06 - 04:43 PM (#1750234)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,101st Airbourne

Well done Leadfingers, beat me to it ! See this thread has made the most boring thread ! Just read some of it, God boringgggggggggggggggggg !

30 May 06 - 06:01 PM (#1750270)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

All right for you.
I had to read it.
I even had to write half of it.
All the way soldier.

30 May 06 - 06:26 PM (#1750291)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Charlotte,
It was really nice of you to be worried about me.
I am sorry it has put you off posting.
If you join Mudcat no one can pretend to be you.
You know all of us here have argued before. We just keep coming back for more because we enjoy it.
Some of them do have some hate, but there is probably something that happened to them to make them feel like that.

If you like folk music, the top half of the forum is nice.
You will see the same members being friendly to everyone.
Even to me!
I hope we here from you again,
Keith.

30 May 06 - 08:32 PM (#1750349)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Keith I posted earlier. Unfortunately MudCat went down. There have been several posts since your post of: 30 May 06 - 12:29 PM here is my reply:

So shoot first gather evidence later. I'm very familiar with that ploy.
At the point at which he was killed he was at best, merely a suspect.


Local residents who witnessed the shooting said the youth was shot dead
while running away from the British soldiers. The bombing they said took
place in another part of the complex. The residents also said the
soldiers responsible for the shooting raked several homes with
indiscriminate gunfire from a terrace facing Whitehall Row. One
eyewitness said 'the youth saw the British soldiers point their rifles
at him and he turned to walk back the way he came. No warning was
shouted before they started shooting.' The witness said when local
people tried to help the dying youth they were assaulted by soldiers,
while other soldiers searched the body. They saw the soldiers take a
pair of rosary beads out of one of his pockets. The witness also said
when one of the soldiers opened the dead youth's hands they found a
packet of cigarettes in one hand and some small change in the other.

I'm very busy right now Keith but keep posting. The more that neutrals know about the situation in N. Ireland the better.

"Some of them do have hate"? come on now Keith your ignorance is showing.

30 May 06 - 08:54 PM (#1750354)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

I wish to confirm the above as correct. I spoke to several people who were there. He was a boy that rarely went out according to those that knew him. When soldiers point their SLR's at you and all you hear are the safety catches going off, take it from me it's scary.

He was thrown around the ground that night like a dog, they rolled his body over several times searching it, at one point one held the dead body up while another searched it.

I have been called a lot on threads such as this, one old bow tied fart told me once, we don't want to hear the Irish views here. This was after he told us we got what we deserved ! This wasn't Keith.

I am used to cracks and insults from the deaf and blind members on this site. Christ we are not making it up.

31 May 06 - 01:49 AM (#1750421)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L

The post of 30 May 06 - 11:59 AM was not made by me.

31 May 06 - 01:56 AM (#1750423)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L

In the 20th century combatants of every colour have disgraced themselves in Northern Ireland. The more you continue to fight about degrees of guilt, the more you will continue to fight about it. Sooner or later a generation has to say OK, well that's enough.
Clearly it won't happen in the lifetime of those posting here today.

31 May 06 - 06:26 AM (#1750515)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Den,
Re message to Charlotte.
I thought she should know that there are many Irish people with good reason to hate the British.
I could have added there are many British and Irish people with reason to hate one or another of the paramilitaries.

Re Michael Marley.
Jean McConville came from the same place. She was snatched from her terrified children by IRA, tortured, executed and her body never returned to her family.
I think that witnesses from there would say whatever IRA told them to say.
They probably preferred him to be an innocent victim, than a youth killed because they had militarised him.
He does appear on IRA Rolls Of Honour as having died fighting.

I share your distrust of the soldiers' statements.
(It is illegal here to shoot at a fleeing suspect.)
They were clearly out of control just because they had been attacked with a bomb.

There is still the forensic pathologist's report and the previous sentence for possessing arms and explosives.
(Sweeney must have confused him with another case)

Having said all that I was wrong to bring this up.
It does not detract from the truth of your post, and is not what I started this thread to do.
Sorry

Jean McConville

31 May 06 - 08:36 AM (#1750576)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I am still waithing to hear from ex British soldier (Artillery) Billy.

Billy Liar?

Notice the spelling Billy.
You typed LAIR
An easy slip to make.
Divis Sweeney made exactly the same error here

31 May 06 - 10:37 AM (#1750605)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Dear Keith, sorry for my spelling error of February 06. Didn't realise it had annoyed you. Teacher tells off his pupil. You should have brought it up before now, have you been holding this against me, seems as if you are if you remembered four months later ?

31 May 06 - 10:55 AM (#1750618)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Unusual spelling mistake.
Quiet idiosynchratic.

31 May 06 - 11:18 AM (#1750634)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Would ard mhacha,Bente, Billy, Den, Divis and Macashla please stop posting to Keith A of Hertford. He is entering until multiple names.

Please stop now.

Thank you.

01 Jun 06 - 02:12 PM (#1751149)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

If everyone has finished then.
I laid myself open and expected the worst, but the pattern was just question, answer, silence, next question.
No one ever said, "poor answer, you overstated this and were wrong about this and this because..."

The only person to challenge an answer was Englishman Dave The Gnome!

Otherwise all I got was "in a hole" and "tripe"
Hardly shot down in flames.

Then we had the swarm of alter-ego tripping Guests, all reading exactly like Divis Sweeney.
And why were they created? What was the point?

A young sounding Charlotte arrived just wondering what was going on.
She had her identity ripped off and vowed never to post again.
Nice work boys.

Then Den. Straight as a die. No abuse. No nonsense.
His post could be summed up as "The army sometimes did bad things too."
This was backed up with a list of the army's victims, almost all of whom were paramilitary fighters.

You people asked for the opportunity to question me and I obliged, only refusing to ruin the other thread with it all.

You had your chance and you blew it!

01 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM (#1751183)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Just watched a programme there on Ulster television about the hired police hitman Haddock. Six ex detectives have come forward and stated that he was responsible for the murder of over 20 people. One said he arrested Haddock after two local people who saw the murder name him, he wasn't masked. The ex detectives were told in the station by special branch to release him ! The UVF have killed 32 people since 1994, and not one person has been charged with any of these murders. The programme stated there was clear evidence of British collusion in twenty of these murders.

01 Jun 06 - 03:36 PM (#1751195)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

My point was that the British were rarely if ever charged for doing the bad things, as Keith refers to murder. And the British continue to do "bad things". They're popping off they're old informers like its going out of style.

Now to the list of victims I pointed to and this is an all new low for you Keith. He would have you believe almost all the victims were paramilitaries. Even now he would try to blacken the names of the dead or in other ways say they deserved to die. There were a total of 197 people killed or murdered by the British army. 88 of them were active members of republican paramilitary organizations. Very few were actively engaged in combat when they died. 109 were completely innocent people.

111 people were murdered by British/Loyalist collusion. 5 were members of republican paramilitary groups and 96 were innocent victims.

So in total the British had they're hands in the murder of a total of 308 people. 205 people were completely innocent. 17 were killed by plastic bullets. A weapon that was deemed to be too forceful to be used in England or the rest of Britain.

Anyway if it makes you feel better Keith. You win. I hope your proud of yourself.

01 Jun 06 - 04:01 PM (#1751227)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

If One Wishes for an Answer, One must ask a Question to Find the Answer. If One has ever been Helped with Answers to Their Questions, and They See a Question They can Answer, They will do so.

A series of aliases were used on the above thread. Please remember ...This is a general open forum where you are free to post and members should not get confused as to the aliases one member is using.

I think we will end it now to avoid embarrassment.

01 Jun 06 - 04:24 PM (#1751243)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit

Hi Guys - On a bit of a break from the course I am on and waiting to go for a couple of pints of black stuff:-)

I didn't realise I was the only one to 'challenge the answer' as Keith put it. Perhaps it is an English thing. You need to be English to fully understand the question?;-)

There does seem to be a lot of bigotry towards Keith. Perhaps I am missing something that seems to indicate he deserves it but on this thread I have not spotted it. There is also, undoubtably, lots of bad feeling and lots of reasons for those bad feelings. It is pretty useless quoting statistics about how many people were killed by who. At the end of the day these were all terrible acts of violence that should never be repeated by anyone.

I would like to use this thread to draw a line. I know it will never happen but wouldn't it be something both side forgave each other for their sins and both sides apolgised for their own wrongs. Either real or perceived?

Why not start the movement here? For any wrongs I have written about the Irish troubles. I'm sorry. To anyone who has upset me about the same. Forget it. It's water under the bridge.

Now the. Hows about it? Keith? Ard? Gerry Adams has already done it. I guess we are just waiting for Ian Paisley?

Ah, well. I suppose you are right. May as well get to that bar...

Peace.

DtG

01 Jun 06 - 05:03 PM (#1751272)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

I wouldn't use the word bigotry.

"He's arrogant, he's pompous,he's opinionated and he believes that everything he says is right, he drives at the Irish to provoke a reaction. "And he does know what he's doing."

Sorry but I feel any derogatory remarks against Keith were sadly self inflicted. His desire to invite the Irish and give them a bloody nose may have caused him to experience anger, frustration and despair when they ignored him.

01 Jun 06 - 05:26 PM (#1751286)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,DtG still bout biccie.

Sorry, Guest. That looks exeedingly like bigotry to me. You say Keith believes that everything he says is right. Do you not? If not, do you not not believe the post you just made? Is that why you have not put a name to it?

I apologise in advance if that seems pompous or opinionated to you. Do you forgive me? ;-)

Cheers

DtG
(Back from the black stuff and about to retire. See you in t'morn.)

01 Jun 06 - 07:09 PM (#1751339)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Dave, "bigotry toward Keith", I'm not sure I would agree. I don't believe that I have treated Keith in a bigoted way. I certainly don't dislike Keith. I certainly do dislike his government. I have mostly spoken out against oppression. I think that the British Government oppressed my people and continue to do so. My bone of contention has always been that the British have rarely been charged with crimes perpetrated against Nationalist people. For God's sake its been over 34 years and Bloody Sunday has still not been resolved. I just find that Keith can't get it into his head that the violence in N.Ireland escalated when the British Government picked an enemy. The enemy as far as they saw was the nationalist people.

01 Jun 06 - 07:22 PM (#1751351)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Subject: RE: Bloody Sunday
From: GUEST,Keith A at work
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 07:42 AM

Grab, I find your posts full of insight and knowledge, but I note you tacitly accept that the army was complicit in the shooting of Bernadette. Perhaps, who knows? Can we at least exonerate the patrol of paratroopers whose swift arrival on the scene probably prevented her attackers completing their bloody business, and whose prompt and effective first aid certainly saved her life. She herself expressed her gratitude with crates of beer.
On the subject of unsubstantiated allegations, can anyone give the lie to that outrageous but persistent rumour that Martin Mcguinness, once high profile PIRA(admitted at the time Brendy) and now Minister Of Education for Northern Ireland, has privately admitted instigating the shooting on that black day.

01 Jun 06 - 07:27 PM (#1751353)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Words fail me.

01 Jun 06 - 07:44 PM (#1751362)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Little can be added to a statement like that beggars belief.

02 Jun 06 - 03:52 AM (#1751517)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

I don't think you have, Den. But some have. You have most elequently argued your case rather than indulging in personal attacks. Not so with everyone else.

If, for instance, the nameless Guest above can get past the He's arrogant, he's pompous,he's opinionated and he believes that everything he says is right phase he will probably see that Keith is just a person like you or I. The fact that he has different opinions does not entitle anyone to attack him. Hating someone for their views is the very definition of bigotry in my book.

All I am saying is that if we all saw beyond the bluster, from all sides, the world would be a happier place:-)

Cheers

DtG

02 Jun 06 - 05:03 AM (#1751537)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

To the latest Guest?,
You must have spent hours trawling through all my posts going back 5 years, including all my (fully attributed) Guest posts.
And in all those hundreds (thousands?) of posts that is the worst you can find against me.
And you still could not find the posts that make me a LAIR!
You are a sad, obsessed man.

Den, your post is worthy of a more considered reply than above crap.
I am still thinking it through.
Keith.

02 Jun 06 - 08:41 AM (#1751622)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Sorry to cut in on this meeting of the mutual appreciation society. I feel it's reasonably safe to see which pole you have firmly placed your colours upon Dave.

This person has made half assed remarks that I entered his thread under a Guest posting with his remarks about spelling errors and to his amazement somebody could actually think like me !
A point which has been pointed out to me by other members that he may know more about than the person he is accusing.


1. Then we had the swarm of alter-ego tripping Guests, all reading exactly like Divis Sweeney.

2. Notice the spelling Billy.
You typed LAIR
An easy slip to make.
Divis Sweeney made exactly the same error here

Well I suppose they aren't as bad as his previous ones which called me a murderer, Joe had to point out his error, which he ignored. Or saying there was blood on my hands !

Neither caused anything but amusement.

My old man used to say. Boy watch the company you keep, some people can and will judge you by it !

02 Jun 06 - 10:00 AM (#1751662)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Poor Joe will not thank us for dragging him into this, but I think he will be surprised by your last remark Sweeney.
As for the rest of it, I am happy to let people to make up their own minds.
They will note that you chose not to give the quotes.
Keith.

02 Jun 06 - 10:26 AM (#1751674)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Den,
I agree with you that Goverments have let down the Nationalist people in the past.
The Stormont mob was completely prejudiced against you and London should have sacked them earlier.
London also did a lousy job but I suggest it was incompetence rather than conspiracy.

I was disappointed by your first post because I had by then acknowledged twice in different posts that the army was responsible for innocent deaths in NI.
I read your list of army victims and the word activist seemed to come up again and again. Look again and see what I mean.
I admit I did not count them all.
Then I recognised a non activist name because it was used by Sweeney, looked further and found that he was one.(Sweeney lied about the Army exonerating him) How many more like that?

You seem to have a double standard Den.
You criticise the army for being in NI but not the paramilitaries whose campaigns of terror kept them there.
Like me you deplore the army's killing of innocents, but do not criticise the IRA even though they killed hundreds more innocent men, women and children than the army ever did.
You complain that some of the paramilitary activists were not actually murdering someone when they were shot, but do not criticise the IRA for gunning down soldiers police and prison officers when they were off duty, with their families, waiting for trains etc.

What is your opinion of the favourite IRA tactic of sending an emergency plea to the police for help, then gunning them down when they arrive?

I do not discriminate between the paramilitaries. The Loyalist gangs showed even more contempt for human life, albeit on a smaller scale.

02 Jun 06 - 10:27 AM (#1751675)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video
From: Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

You neither got your audience Keith nor proved any point.


      There is no indication that the Sept 18 "Divis Sweeney" posts were posted by the member named Divis Sweeney, or by Keith of Hertford. They could have been posted by either, I suppose, but I have no proof either way.
      So quite your squabbling, already.
      -Joe Offer-

02 Jun 06 - 10:33 AM (#1751679)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Den, do me a favour and take the advice I have been given in numerous pm's, ignore this guy. As of now I am.

02 Jun 06 - 10:45 AM (#1751685)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

I abhor the deaths of all innocents I've made this statement before but I will always stand behind the Nationalist people. You also have double standards, I have never seen you start a thread castigating the loyalists or the army. Even though there have been atleast three catholic teens murdered this year alone by loyalists. Noone ever hears this and certainly not from you. You seem to reserve your right to start negative threads in regard to the Republican side. Keith my point has always been that justice has never been served equally in N. Ireland. I firmly believe that the route problem in N. Ireland has always been the stance taken by the British government. I agree too that off-duty combatants should not be targeted but it happened on all sides to all sides by all sides. If our civil rights had been addressed fairly and equitably I'm firmly convinced that the troubles of the last 40 years would not have happened.

02 Jun 06 - 10:46 AM (#1751686)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Thanks Sweeney.
I hope people will look at that exchange.
You denied making a post by Guest Divis Sweeney from before you joined.
I then gave links to where as a member you had acknowledged that same post.

The post was where you boasted of killing by sniping.

02 Jun 06 - 10:56 AM (#1751693)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Roland Wilson

Keith A of Hertford I remember the derogatory remarks you made last year about Balham and some snide remark about a buliders yard there.
So it's not just the Paddies in the firing line !

02 Jun 06 - 11:13 AM (#1751704)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Den, You say" I have never seen you start a thread castigating the loyalists or the army. Even though there have been atleast three catholic teens murdered this year alone by loyalists. Noone ever hears this and certainly not from you. You seem to reserve your right to start negative threads in regard to the Republican side"

I have never started a negative thread about Republicans either, except the one that ASKED if PIRA might have robbed a bank.


Roland,
Sorry, I don't remember.

02 Jun 06 - 11:17 AM (#1751710)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Here
is the thread with the exchange Sweeney just referred to.
Starts at 20th Feb.

02 Jun 06 - 11:37 AM (#1751721)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

The old Russell and Dorrell building wasn't bombed, it was redeveloped.

02 Jun 06 - 12:07 PM (#1751739)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Just in case anyone is interested, I am taking a break from all this for a couple of days.
Have a lovely weekend everyone.
keith.

03 Jun 06 - 04:27 AM (#1752062)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Did you realy believe that Divis had made those postings, Keith? If so I am in total disagreement - I know Divis quite well (I hope:-) ) and know that there is no need for him to resort to such tactics. Will you please re-address that issue?

Hope you had a good weekend anyway.

Cheers

DtG

03 Jun 06 - 03:25 PM (#1752308)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

I've just waded through the links provided. Sorry Keith. I am as sure as I can be that you are barking up the worng tree. Whatever the in's and out's of your relationship with the Irish I was happy to stand up and say that both sides were in the wrong in many cases. Forget it. Move on.

Until, that is, that unsubstantiated personal allegations started flying about. That is my lot I'm afraid. Whoever started it does not matter. What does is that you are now perpetuating the bad feeling by doing the very thing you rally against - Digging up old dirt and holding grudges. How it looks to me anyway.

Stick to good arguments for or against British involvement and people may not agree but they will respect you. Ignore the goading by nameless guests. Don't sink to the level of dragging in personalities and I will defend your right to say what you want anytime. When it gets to schoolyard 'he said this and she said that' though I don't want to know.

Still hope you had a good weekend though. Weather was good for a change anyway:-)

Cheers

DtG

05 Jun 06 - 04:42 AM (#1753179)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
You are right. I have no proof that Divis made those Guest posts and was wrong to make those heavy handed insinuations.
Divis Sweeney I take it back.
I am sorry.

Perhaps he would take back the accusation that I posted under his Guest name to incriminate him.
Not only was that unsubstantiated, but he knew I was innocent because he made the post himself.

Here is the post in question
detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1566239

Here is him as a member discussing having made that post. He appologises for joking about it but does not say that he made it up.
detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1582124

Here is him denying the post and blaming me.
thread.cfm?threadid=88893#1673675

06 Jun 06 - 07:21 AM (#1753998)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

No apology for me then.
Oh well.
I got quite obsessed about that attack on me back then, but got over it and even posted an apology to Mudcat for going on about it.

I take it you have all finished with this thread then?
Our Irish contributors were so sure they could expose my anti irish prejudice. No chance because I love Ireland and all things Irish.

They seemed to believe that only an anti Irish bigot could dislike what the IRA did. Also that you could not dislike the IRA and also loathe Loyalist paramilitaries.
Even after all the questions, and all my 6 years of postings were vainly scrutinised, Den still thought that I selectively start anti Republican threads.
I have not started one.

True I have not had the opportunity to debate with a Loyalist sympathiser, because none post to Mudcat. In that sense Mudcat is heavily one sided, in favour of Nationalists.

I will miss Billy, even though he called me a liar and could not substantiate it.
He said he had done National Service in the British Army so the youngest he could be is about 70.
He also said he had "attended Kings College Cambridge" even though he could barely string a sentence together. I wonder what his degree was in.

Keith.

06 Jun 06 - 09:43 AM (#1754085)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Apology for what? I don't believe I have anything to apologize to you for. I think that you are very creative in your use of language Keith. You said that I accused you of selectively starting anti-republican threads. Thats not exactly what I said. I did say, "You seem to reserve your right to start negative threads in regard to the Republican side". BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA? Would be the case in point. To be honest I haven't done a search to see if you have started others. That one rang a bell.

After I had given links to the site listing victims of the British army. You said that most of the victims were active paramilitaries. Again that was not true. Most of the victims were ordinary people.

What you do quite often on threads regarding N. Ireland, is to misinform. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here Keith and say that this is not deliberate but rather due to a lack of historical knowledge.

Mudcat as far as I see is not heavily one sided in favour of Nationalists. Most British posters seem to be quite the opposite.

Finally you claim that you love Ireland and all things Irish. Why would you then not support the Nationalist claim to self determination.

As I said before Keith somewhere up above. You won. How's that?

06 Jun 06 - 09:55 AM (#1754096)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:41 PM

Den that is so wrong to say those things about Keith. I feel he has proven to be a real Intelect and expert on all Irish matters. He is the only one that seems to tell the truth on these Irish threads.
I say well done Keith.

06 Jun 06 - 10:01 AM (#1754099)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

No Den, you do not owe me any apologies.Sorry You got that impression. I was talking about the false accusation sweeney made about me back in feb.
Re the list of victims, I admitted not counting them just that the word activist kept coming up. I will go back and count.

Re"Finally you claim that you love Ireland and all things Irish. Why would you then not support the Nationalist claim to self determination."
I do support the Nationalist claim to self determination. I just think that violence is not the way.
Keith.

06 Jun 06 - 10:07 AM (#1754102)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Guest, Charlotte denied making that post.
What do you suppose was the motive of the real poster?

06 Jun 06 - 12:26 PM (#1754202)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

From the list you posted Den

89 are listed as paramilitary activists.
11 were shot robbing banks,shops, bookmakers or in stolen cars.
12 were killed by RUC
2 died after prison beatings
and 1 (Patrick Duffy) shot entering unoccupied house that contained an IRA arms dump.
80 not listed as activists or criminals but including Michael Marley who we discussed, and the child an IRA man subsequently admitted killing.

07 Jun 06 - 01:47 AM (#1754684)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

No reply then.
You did owe me an apology this time Den.
It took a long time to count through those figures, and I found that my perception was correct and that you were completely wrong to say,

"After I had given links to the site listing victims of the British army. You said that most of the victims were active paramilitaries. Again that was not true. Most of the victims were ordinary people."

It was not me who was ill informed.

You keep saying that I have won, but like a teenager saying "whatever" it has no meaning.
You will still not specifically criticise the IRA as you do the army, even though IRA has killed hundreds more innocent men, women and children than the army has.
And you still believe that I am an anti Irish bigot just because I do criticise the IRA, and in spite of all the proof to the contrary in this and the other threads.
So I have not won Den.
I can never win can I.

07 Jun 06 - 04:10 AM (#1754744)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

I did critisise Keith when I felt he was off track so let me be the first to say 'Well done Keith'. Back on track and well back on form.

Cheers

DtG

07 Jun 06 - 10:06 AM (#1754941)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Like John O'L Dave,
you are obviously me!

07 Jun 06 - 10:23 AM (#1754962)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Apologize for what? The only thing that I will apolgize for is the tardiness of my reply I don't live on here, I do have a life.

My God man are we not debating here? Have I ever asked for an apology from you? Your figures are wrong. Did you not count those innocents murdered by the British army in collusion with loyalists and British agents. Murder by proxy is still murder. I provided the links above, go back and do a body count. Those sites don't include all victims either. They don't mention the deaths attributed to the FRU as far as I can tell. That may be a thread for another day.

As I keep saying and you keep missing, deliberately or otherwise I abhor the deaths of all innocents. I have also said that the IRA were charged, tried and convicted for acts perpetrated by them. Whereas the army, but for only two cases that I can find, were not. In those two cases the soldiers in question served two years of a fifteen year sentence for murder and were then accepted back into the army. The British army have had carte blanche to do what they wanted in N. Ireland with no apparent repercussion. Bloody Sunday eg. We suffered through state sponsored terror for years. Who did we have to turn to, tell me who?

Maybe that is why I am taciturn in my criticism of the IRA. I never openly supported them but it was reassuring to know that they were around. Otherwise I'm not sure what the situation would have been like for nationalists.

I don't recall calling you a bigot Keith maybe you can point that out to me. I do wonder at times at your defence of a government that would select a number of its citizens and subject them to such horror.

I don't appreciate your inference that I have acted in an adolescent way (that's a little like calling names, no) when I said that you'd won. I believe that you feel you need to win Keith. We seem to be going around the doors and I get the feeling you are reluctant to really listen to what I'm saying.

07 Jun 06 - 10:47 AM (#1754986)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

One of the best resources I have seen on who did what to who in NI is the Sutton Database - See here

The following table is from the home page.

Summary of Organisation responsible for the death:

British Security 363
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
Not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2055

TOTAL 3523

3523 too many is my first comment. Anyone is able to do their own seaches and draw their own conclusions but will everyone please refrain from saying one side is any better than the other when it is plain that all sides were party to this massacre.

OK - The British Government may be trying to cover and hush it up but they are not making a very good job are they? OK - The IRA may have now stopped and apologised but they did kill more than all the others. Why can't all parties concerned accept that there have been huge mistakes on both sides and start to talk like civilised human beings again?

Would probably already be done if it were up to Mudcatters. Wouldn't it? ;-)

Cheers

DtG

07 Jun 06 - 12:31 PM (#1755053)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Makes you wonder what the figures would be if the Germans invaded Britain in 1940.
Then again it would be wrong to fight a army of occupation !

07 Jun 06 - 12:46 PM (#1755061)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Dave, do you believe that justice should seem to be done in all cases? Do you believe that justice has been served equitably in all cases? That has been my point in all of this.

07 Jun 06 - 12:49 PM (#1755064)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Makes you wonder what the figures would be if the Germans invaded Britain in 1940.

I don't think there would have been any NI issues if that would have happened, Guest, so there would not have been any figures. What is your point?

Then again it would be wrong to fight a army of occupation !

Why would it be wrong? I guess the English and Irish would have fought side by side to be rid of them. Don't understand that either.

Can you please clarify the point you are trying to make?

Cheers

DtG

07 Jun 06 - 12:58 PM (#1755068)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry, Den - Was posting just as you did so didn't notice your question.

No, I don't think justice has been served. How can the justice that atones for hundreds of years of mis-rule and mal-treatment ever be served? Justice will only be served when the people of power give back what they have stolen from ALL the working classes. On both sides of the Irish sea. And that will never happen.

What we can best hope for is a quiet and steady peace where all of us 'ordinary' people stop believeing the lies that the politicians tell us about 'the enemy'. We are not enemies. Never have been. But that is how they keep us in check stop us from noticing that they are abusing us all.

There, off my soap box. Probably on file at MI5. Good luck to us all.

Cheers

DtG

07 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM (#1755092)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Mick

Disengenous (sp?) post, DavetG. His point is very clear. If the Germans had invaded and taken over GB, would a fight for freedom have been appropriate? A fight to rid the land of the occupiers? How long should it go on legitimately? Would the various British peoples be justified in maintaining a guerilla force for however long it took to be rid of the occupiers?

Mick

07 Jun 06 - 02:40 PM (#1755115)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, Mick, it was rather ambiguous and I realy wanted guest to clarify for his/her own sake as much as mine. This is the internet remember and you realy need to make it clear what you mean if you don't want people to misinterpret you, either accidentaly or otherwise. Seeing as you have taken it upon yourself to clarify the meaning though I will take your remarks as helpfuly as I am sure you intended them:-)

I have already said Why would it be wrong? I guess the English and Irish would have fought side by side to be rid of them. and I stand by that statement. It would not have been wrong at all. To fight an occupying army is the prerogative of all occupied peoples. But where do you stop? Should we have murdered English and Irish policemen who were maintaining the laws of the third reich? Should we have gone and bombed civilians in German shopping streets? Should we have flown planes into the skysrapers of Berlin?

I, for one, can't answer these questions. You are a much better man than I am if you can. Fortunately it is all academic. Even more fortunately it is all in the past. Get over it for heavens sake. Both sides. There is no benefit at all in a blame allocation excercise. We have peace in Ireland now. Is that not what matters at the end of the day? Let's just make sure it doesn't happen again.

Cheers

DtG

07 Jun 06 - 03:13 PM (#1755130)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Mick,
I made the analogy earlier with California.
Would Mexican Americans there be justified in fighting a guerilla/terrorist war against USA? Their grievance is much more recent.

Den,
You should certainly apologise for keeping the whole Mudcat world waiting. Or maybe I should get out more.

No you did not call me a bigot Den. Sorry for that. I did take a lot of abuse from your side, but not from you. Again sorry.
I think that you did sort of suggest that I was coming from that general direction though.


The army arrived to protect the Nationalists.(We are never going to agree on this bit I know.) They stayed BECAUSE of the armed struggle begun by PIRA, and left when it ended.
Using soldiers to police a volatile situation always results in killing. I do believe the British army is better than others but it is still an army. And it did improve over the years.

About those numbers.
I thought we were discussing deaths directly attributable to soldiers. Are you sure you have not just moved the goal posts a bit?
I wish that we had cleared that up before I did all that counting and categorising. Just as well I don't have a life.

I am not a great supporter and defender of politicians, I think the wrong people are attracted to that trade for the wrong reasons.
I accept that the Stormont government was vindictive and repressive to the Nationalist community.
I honestly believe that the British Government meant well but did not know what to do. As I said, incompetence rather than conspiracy.
I think you are entitled to feel bitter about much of what went on.

You don't appreciate me inferring that you are acting like an adolescent. Good. That is how I feel when you tell me I have won.

Keith.

07 Jun 06 - 03:23 PM (#1755138)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

So much for keith and and his statistics and information.

He writes,
The army arrived to protect the Nationalists.(We are never going to agree on this bit I know.) They stayed BECAUSE of the armed struggle begun by PIRA, and left when it ended.

Left when it ended ! There are 16,450 still in Northern Ireland.

The hole he digs gets deeper.

07 Jun 06 - 03:33 PM (#1755142)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

A review of the police investigation into the 1996 Manchester bombing has revealed that the IRA members behind it are unlikely to be brought to justice.

Greater Manchester Police (GMP) Deputy Chief Constable Dave Whatton made the announcement in the run up to the 10th anniversary of the bombing on 15 June.

He said that there was "no realistic possibility of a prosecution". Unless we can frame a few Innocent Paddies.

07 Jun 06 - 03:49 PM (#1755150)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Guest 3.23
The army are off the streets.
The observation posts are dismantled.
Don't be deliberately obtuse

07 Jun 06 - 04:13 PM (#1755165)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Left when it ended or the army are off the streets. Please make your mind up.

07 Jun 06 - 04:44 PM (#1755192)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

There are probably more soldiers in Essex where I shop every week.
Why would anyone care?
They live in their camps, train in remote training areas, you are not aware of them.
Every country has soldiers.
They are stationed all over.
You know that is not what was meant by the army being present in NI
You are just spoiling an intelligent discussion between sensible people.
Go and learn to spell your name.

07 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM (#1755374)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner

From this side of the puddle it's clear to see the Irish problem, it's called Keith A of Hertford . A fine example of a broad minded Englishman !

08 Jun 06 - 01:53 AM (#1755532)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carleton Finklebeiner,
Like every named Guest here, you have chosen my little thread to make your first ever post.
It is gratifying to have brought so many new people into the Mudcat community.
Let me help you out on how things are here.
If you make a ludicrous statement like that without producing a single shred of evidence to support it, you are just an embarrassment to your side of the debate and, frankly, a waste of bandwidth.
Have a nice day now,
Keith.

08 Jun 06 - 03:58 AM (#1755559)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

It must be nice to see things so clearly though. If you make any statements against the IRA you are anti-Irish. If you make any statements against Israel you are anti-semetic. If you make any statemants against America you must be a terrorist.

What a lovely clean, simple life some people must lead. All cut and dried like that;-)

Cheers

DtG

08 Jun 06 - 04:25 AM (#1755567)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle

Maybe, maybe not. who knows?

Personally I wish you'd knock it off Keith.

these guys have made their points of view quite clear.

the Brish army are scum. Even when they liberate Europe they are scum - not to be acknowledged within their own families.

What the IRA do is occasionally regrettable but toally forgiveable as it is in the cause of a United Ireland.

Occasionally a dopey Guest calls in and congratulates them on their devastatingly accurate insights.

occasionally a hint is dropped that someone was actually engaged in this conflict.

maybe, maybe not. My instinct says not. We grew up with a generation that had been in a war. Men who have been near the action generally convey a sense of realising that a degree of dumb luck has kept them alive, and a sense of deep regret for comrades and opponents who didn't enjoy the same degree of luck.

The general tone is more reminiscent of 4th formers winding up a teacher.

Discusion is impossible without argument, argument apparently untenable without abuse. conflict is apparently the aim.

the whole atmosphere is predictable, but disturbing for all that.

08 Jun 06 - 04:53 AM (#1755576)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner what are you thinking, arriving here on the Keith Show. Do you not realise it's for members only ?
Unless that your one of the guests who came to support Keith.
Foe example a lady called Charlotte made her debut and Keith didn't seem to mind. She came back needing a word of consolement and Keith give her one. She left again happy.

08 Jun 06 - 11:31 AM (#1755595)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Keith give her one. She left again happy.

That is one hell of thing to come out with. Hope his Missus isn't watching;-)

08 Jun 06 - 12:48 PM (#1755635)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

For all our sakes would someone end this stupid thread. Sick looking at it on forum list.

Great Keith, you beat the I.R.A.

08 Jun 06 - 01:45 PM (#1755669)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle

its a matter of etiquette, Keith.

the Archbishop of Canterbury gets up in his vestments in Westminster Abbey. He tell the people , up above the clouds - Jesus hangs out with his Dad, God; and there is a Holy Ghost, who wafts around the place. One day, after we are all dead, this will be set to rights, the lion will lie down with the lamb, all things are possible.

YOU MIGHT THINK WHAT HE IS SAYING IS TOTAL CRAP. YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH HIM. YOU MAY HAVE SOLID PROOFS THAT HE IS WRONG, BUT YOU EXERCISE SELF CONTROL, AND YOU RESPECT HIS RIGHT TO THOSE BELIEFS WHICH HE OBVIOUSLY HOLDS SACRED AND GET HIM THROUGH HIS WORKING DAY - AND YOU SHUT UP.

These guys have Pearse, Connolly, Bobby Sands in their stained glass windows rather than St Peter and John the Baptist.

SHOW THE SAME RESPECT FOR THEIR SACRED BELIEFS, ANYTHING ELSE IS DAMNED BAD MANNERS.

08 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM (#1755672)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Is Keith A of Hertford included in this summary ?

08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM (#1755696)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.
I am quite happy to leave Guest talking to himself.

08 Jun 06 - 07:10 PM (#1755861)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

SHOW THE SAME RESPECT FOR THEIR SACRED BELIEFS, ANYTHING ELSE IS DAMNED BAD MANNERS.

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 05:24 AM

Perhaps there is a lesson for the US in all this. Perhaps instead of trying to hunt down and destroy Bin Laden, he should be offerred a position in government. Then, who knows, one day he might say sorry for all the bad things he once did.
Then you could happily forget the WTC and embassy bombings as we must forget Bloody Friday, Enniskillen, Omagh, Warrington, Manchester, Baltic Exchange, Canary Wharf, etc., etc.,etc., etc., etc., etc.

08 Jun 06 - 07:25 PM (#1755876)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.

Maybe you should rephrase that.
   
I have tried 3 times to wind people up.

09 Jun 06 - 03:30 AM (#1756016)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I am still reading this in case anyone wants to raise a point for discussion.
We can just ignore this posturing buffoon.

09 Jun 06 - 11:40 AM (#1756072)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

We can just ignore this posturing buffoon.
Believe us Keith we are !

09 Jun 06 - 05:05 PM (#1756285)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Gosh, that was clever, Guest. Where did you learn your line in sparkling wit and repartee? I bet no one else has thought of turning someones words around like that since, oh let me see, 5 years old?

:D (tG)

09 Jun 06 - 07:24 PM (#1756338)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L

This thread's work is done. Please someone put it to bed.

09 Jun 06 - 08:49 PM (#1756385)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Carleton Finkbeiner

Eu firmemente acredito que o irlandês são muito melhor em pondo em ordem o próprios negócios se parte só pelo inglês.

10 Jun 06 - 02:59 AM (#1756531)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Translation from the Portuguse via Babel Fish-

"I firmly believe that the Irishan is very better in putting orderly the proper businesses if part alone for the English."

I think I understand it though on what planet writing the comment in Portuguese is putting orderly the proper businesses I don't know!

But you are quite right, John. It's getting silly. Or is that sillier?

:D (tG)

10 Jun 06 - 06:21 AM (#1756581)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

You are too harsh Dave.
Remember it only took him nine days to think up that one about me and Charlotte.
And he so nearly got it right, just saying "Keith give her one" instead of gave her one.
What a cracker.
And too modest to put his name to it!

10 Jun 06 - 06:26 AM (#1756583)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.



What's wrong, ego not allowing it ?

10 Jun 06 - 06:32 AM (#1756585)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

No Guest, I just respond.
I agreed to answer questions.
I will stand by it.
I don't think that Charlotte will have laughed at your "joke", if she ever visits mudcat anymore.
Are you proud of yourself?

10 Jun 06 - 07:27 AM (#1756610)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

The really STUPID thing about your omplaint, Guest, is that, but for you, this thread would have finished on 7th June.
It is JUST YOU who have kept providing points to respond to since then.
You are indeed a posturing buffoon.

10 Jun 06 - 08:52 AM (#1756639)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Security force collusion with loyalist paramilitary killers led to a number of murders in Northern Ireland.That's the British army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary Keith.

The killing of Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane and another Belfast man, student Brian Lambert, "could have been prevented" if the security forces had not been involved in collusion.

A report said: "We have identified serious shortcomings, highlighting collusion between Loyalist gunmen and the British army"

Collusion is defined as the failure to keep records, the absence of accountability, withholding of intelligence and evidence and the involvement of intelligence agents in the murders of innocent Catholics .

And we have to listen to some creep defend them. It's nothing short of atrocious.

10 Jun 06 - 09:04 AM (#1756644)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

But I have not, and do not, defend any of those things.

10 Jun 06 - 09:07 AM (#1756646)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

You are posturing again!

11 Jun 06 - 02:50 PM (#1757340)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

And so, as the anonymous poster if Time confuses his identities in the hurried post of Fate, and as the long, finely honed post of Destiny is lost when the network server of Doom goes tits up yet again, we say goodnight to this thread.

Unless someone has one more issue to raise?

Keith.

11 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM (#1757393)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:35 PM

I have tried 3 times to wind this up now.


So why are you starting it up again when it left the thread list today?

Has to be the most boring thread EVER to appear on Mudcat. Drop it Keith please, nobody is interested in your one man war with the Irish.
Even the Irish have left you to it !

12 Jun 06 - 04:02 AM (#1757765)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

You do make me laugh.
You were so desparate for me to start this thread, and now you are desparate for it to stop.
So desparate that you keep refreshing it to say so!

12 Jun 06 - 05:18 AM (#1757798)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

I imagine if people care to check above Keith has refreshed this thread almost daily ! Ego trip !

12 Jun 06 - 06:12 AM (#1757825)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Keith
I left this thread on the 2nd June. It was going nowhere. You started it after questions were put to you in another thread about a film.

You answered some of them there and then started this thread which in my opinion became a joke. Which was the reason I left it.

You accused me of posting as a GUEST several times in a half assed manner. Keith understand as many of my friends here know, if I have anything to say, I will say it and with a name.

Frankly I am sorry to say I feel you lost credablitiy on this thread. In the past you entered many a debate with me and often you came out of it well, and we remained friends.

Sorry Keith I feel this thread has been a turning point for both of us. You hold a viewpoint, which you are entitled to. Sadly you don't respect my right to hold one.

As I have said many many times, I have seen a lot of injustice at first hand in my country and because I voiced this, you went on the attack. Also I hold a Republican view and understood why the IRA came into existance. I also welcomed an end to their campaign.

Think it's best that you ignore any posts after you respond to this one. Don't feed those who played with it. Understand Keith for all your allegations and Insinuations towards me posting as a guest I can CATEGORICALLY DENY involvement.

I don't think I have anything to add, so please don't ask me another question or seek a response regarding this post.

Seamus

12 Jun 06 - 06:13 AM (#1757827)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Not true guest.
I wind it up but then someone makes a point and I respond.
Lately that someone has only been YOU.
Check it out.
Now, stop posturing and let it die.

12 Jun 06 - 06:19 AM (#1757830)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Seamus I said sorry for accusing you of Guest posting, and say sorry again.
I never attacked you, only criticised the paramilitaries.
I respected everyone's right to a point of view, but exercised my right to challenge it.
Keith.

12 Jun 06 - 06:59 AM (#1757847)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Sorry to keep on Sweeney, but I am really taken aback by your comments.
Remember on 29th May I specifically said that I bare you no ill will, and accepted that there were likely to be circumstances in your past that make you feel the way you do.

13 Jun 06 - 02:16 AM (#1758636)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I will be accused of prolonging this thread but having read it right through i must completely refute as utterly false Divis Sweeney's last post.
It is just a tactical lie to win sympathy.
There is NOT ONE place where I do not respect his or Den's or the Guests right to hold their views. I challenge them but in a subdued and polite manner.
Contrast that to the venom with which I was shouted down.

I did not even accuse Sweeney of Guest posting.
All I did was to point out some circumstantial evidence, at a time when I was the brunt of some unpleasant abuse from guests.
Elsewhere on Mudcat that is a normal debating tactic, but not for me.
I withdrew it and apologised.
I am still waiting for him to apologise for accusing me (in February)of making a guest post that proveably was made by him.

13 Jun 06 - 06:15 AM (#1758714)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Can we change the name in the thread BS: Concern for Joe Offer's Mental Health !

13 Jun 06 - 06:18 AM (#1758715)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paco Rabanne

199

13 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM (#1758887)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Leadfingers

200

18 Jun 06 - 12:06 PM (#1762846)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

We had a thread about the film The Wind That Shakes The Barley.
Some contributors insisted I respond to issues beyond that of the film.

18 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM (#1762876)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

Collusion is defined as the failure to keep records, the absence of accountability, withholding of intelligence and evidence and the involvement of intelligence agents in the murders of innocent Catholics .

And we have to listen to some creep defend them. It's nothing short of atrocious.

I just don't know where to begin. This statement is so wrong in so many ways it is realy beyond belief. Lets try this first -

Online dictionary definition of collusion. - A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.

Online thesaurus synonyms for collusion. abetment, agreement, collaboration, collusion, complot, concurrence, confederacy, connivance, engineering, guilt, guiltiness, implication, intrigue, involvement, machination, manipulation, partnership

What planet gave you your definition, Guest?

As to the next bit...

Well, who makes you listen to this 'creep', Guest? Just why do you 'have to listen'? And while we are at it let us look at the definition of 'creep'. To go stealthily or furtively; "..stead of sneaking around spying on the neighbor's house" Hmmm. Furtive? Stealthy? Does that sound like someone who hides his name from us by any chance? Doesn't it sound rather more like someone who is too much of a coward to put his name to posts than like someone who gives his name as Keith A. and lets everyone know he is from Hertford?

Why don't you do us all a favour, Guest. Take your stupid games back with you down whatever hole you crept from and leave normal human beings alone.

Cheers

DtG

18 Jun 06 - 05:46 PM (#1763132)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle

I insist that Guest responds.

i am all agog to know what someone I don't know thinks about us.....

the searing intensity of his valuable insights are possibly the zeitgeist of an entire generation.

the nation of mudcat waits with with bated breath.....

his last gig was as The Man from Del Monte, and he was very sound on pineapple chunks.

04 Jul 06 - 07:44 AM (#1775465)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Keith A of Hertford I agree with y

04 Jul 06 - 07:59 AM (#1775476)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,another guest

Who is y?

04 Jul 06 - 08:01 AM (#1775479)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Why is the only sensible contributer to this Site, good old y.

05 Jul 06 - 03:47 AM (#1776356)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

05 Jul 06 - 03:57 AM (#1776368)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Subject: RE: BS: IRA Apologizes
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 04:37 AM

It is not helpful to look backwards at this time. I just heard a US radio presenter unfairly play back to the NI Minister Of Education (Martin McGuinness) a reply he made when he was a high ranking provo. It must have been hurtful for MM to be reminded that he then believed that when ordinary innocent people were caught in the blast of provo car bombs it was their own fault for not getting out of the way fast enough.
If such a heartless and ruthless terrorist can be transformed into a caring politician, there must be hope for Ireland and the world.

16 Jul 06 - 12:03 PM (#1784887)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

16 Jul 06 - 03:36 PM (#1785038)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Why are Guests allowed to abuse the hospitality of Mudcat like this?
Do we need their "contributions" on matters of BS?

21 Jul 06 - 02:07 PM (#1789243)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Colin Pontzpass

There has been a lot of deliberate misinformation about the nature and intent of Love Ulster,a group set up to remember people killed during the British occupation of the North of Ireland. The group which announced yesterday that it intends to try again to march through Dublin.

Last year we saw appalling acts of violence in the capital as the proposed march was called off following a riot in O'Connell Street. We're told by some that the group only wants to remind the people of the Irish Republic of the dreadful suffering inflicted on families of Loyalist extremists by the IRA.

Jim Dixon a disgraced ex R.U.C. man is one of the groups very unsavoury people in a senior position. It was bad enough that Willie Frazer,their leader and a well known South Armagh loyalist terror leader refused to guarantee that a picture of loyalist mass murderer Robert McConnell – known to be responsible for the Dublin/Monagahan bombs – would not be carried at the march.

It was bad enough to read of some of the utterings of Mr Frazer in the past, including his regard for Billy Wright and his belief that no loyalist paramilitary should ever have seen the inside of a prison.


But the manic outpourings of disgraced ex R.U.C. man Mr Dixon underscore the reality that the group contains some people with reactionary and extreme loyalist views. Today, Dublin is a cosmopolitan and multi-racial society which is home to many thousands of people from ethnic backgrounds who supply the extra labour needed to power the country's economic growth. Of the entry of black people into Ireland, Mr Dixon said yesterday: "It's wrong that blacks are coming to Northern Ireland. I go along with what Enoch Powell said. I couldn't care less if people call me a racist. I couldn't care less what they think." Of the disgusting apartheid regime in South Africa, Mr Dixon said: "Under apartheid the black man was better paid, they had better jobs, better everything. He was treated better than anywhere else in the world."

If Love Ulster is serious about this second march it should require Mr Dixon to apologise for his outrageous remarks. And remove two convicted sex offenders from their committee. This group known as F.A.I.R. has recently been refused British government financial support. We wonder why ?

22 Jul 06 - 11:22 AM (#1789855)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,William Frazer

Having been told about this site I cannot start to imagine how so many republicans mass together on one site under a hidden site name that is nothing more than a mouthpiece for republican murders. I have worked all my adult life to bring peace and justice to the decent people of Ulster. Clearly you have on idea of what the republicans did in Ulster. If you want to read the truth about events over the past 30 years visit our site at www.victims.org.uk and read our stories for a change. We are known as F.A.I.R. Please view and sign our guestbook on your visit.
Thank you
William Frazer

26 Jul 06 - 12:45 AM (#1793344)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

I'm not sure how I got sucked into reading these NI threads,but it happened.   And I went to Mr Frazer's website which seemed to contain a fairly well-documented litany of IRA sectarian murders in his home district of South Armagh. But then I came across a story titled "Ten Reasons Why Martin is a Tout!"

This article claims that Martin McGuinness, A big shot in the IRA and the current Sinn Fein leadership is really a British agent. The proof is the ineffectiveness of the Derry IRA under his leadership in pulling off sectarian murders. In short, they just didn't shoot very many innocent Prods. (Unlike the other county IRA commisioners who filled their quotas with gusto.)

Well, if it's true then Mr Frazer might well be the Scooter Libby of NI. Outing an agent he doesn't like. [Mr Libby, my apologies if and when you're acquitted] But there are other reasons why Mr McGuinness might have underperformed and I'm only too happy to give my list:

1) He's incompetent. Good schmoozer, bad organizer.

2) He's the last member of "United Irishmen" and actually believes that a political union of Irish Protestants and Catholics is a good and inevitable thing. Fighting the British Army is one thing, but why blow up future constituents?

3) He's really a double-triple-quadruple agent, and was much too busy double-triple-quadruple crossing people to organize bombings/shootings etc.

4) He's actually an agent of the Irish government in Dublin. This would explain the bit about how easily he got over to visit his Granny in Donegal.

5) He's really Martin Guinness, and works for the family brewery on the sly. His job back then was to make sure the beer kept flowing in Derry. "To Hell with shootings and bombings, just make it to the pub on time, boys!"

Any other suggesions from you Mudcatters, Republican Mordering Scoom, and Paisleyite "King James Only" Bible Thumpers on what really makes Martin McG. tick?

Joe

29 Jul 06 - 08:03 AM (#1796112)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

To William Frazer,

I have been reading your Website FAIR, but it is so one-sided. My post was not hostile in your guessbook. So it did not need to be deleted, all I asked is why is your Website so anti IRA and not anti Unionist or anti Loyalist as well? I understand from reading about you that you are a victim from the conflicts too, but there are innocent victims on both sides of the fence here and I understand your bitterness to the IRA, but all this hatred does not bring peace.

29 Jul 06 - 08:12 AM (#1796116)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Alison, we have our very own William Frazer on this site as well. Blind or wearing blinkers to the plight of the Irish during the "troubles".

29 Jul 06 - 08:24 AM (#1796120)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Really Guest?
I have been a member for years.
I can think of no members who post Unionist opinions, never mind loyalist propaganda.
There are many who post Nationalist viewpoints, and a few Republicans.

There are a few like me who argue against all paramilitarism, but lack of Loyalist opponents mean we mostly argue with all the Republicans.
And how do they counter the anti violence argument?
They say we are anti Irish.
Me especially, even though I have NEVER made an anti Irish statement.

29 Jul 06 - 08:56 AM (#1796129)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Try Conrad Jay Bladey, Keith.

You come into another category. Your main view seems to be that our government and armed forces are innocent parties whose actions can somehow or other be justified, defended or trivialised

I too can not hold with murders and actions such as pub bombings but I believe we are far from lacking in the guilt department.

29 Jul 06 - 09:04 AM (#1796131)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Lost on him Guest.

29 Jul 06 - 09:04 AM (#1796132)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Conrad Jay Bladey

Can you help me to find any Unionist or Loyalist opinions this member has posted please?

29 Jul 06 - 09:05 AM (#1796133)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

The Internet is littered with them, Keith.

29 Jul 06 - 09:13 AM (#1796137)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

But not this forum then?

29 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM (#1796140)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

He's made his views known here.

29 Jul 06 - 09:20 AM (#1796141)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Where?
When?

29 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM (#1796189)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

I understand the difference between Nationalist (one who favors union of NI with the southern Republic) and Republican (one who supports the Irish REPUBLICAN Army's violent campaign of reunification). But I'm a bit fuzzy on Unionist/Loyalist. They're not synonymous? In Canada, Loyalists are those who favored British rule in North America, and left the United States when it ended over a big hunk of it. Paisley is Loyalist or Unionist? The Orange Order? The paramilitary groups? The bulk of the Protestant majority who have never supported reunification with the south or even a political link? The flute bands?

By the way, the last mentioned are interesting to me, as they are an assault on the enemy with music. Kind of like the US Army blasting Noriega with Rock music, or Scottish bagpipers marching to the fray. Since MUDCAT is a music site, I'm trying to turn this BS thread into a music one! Dastardly,I am. Anyone have other good examples of music as a weapon?

Joe

29 Jul 06 - 12:30 PM (#1796227)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Yes Joe. God Save the Queen played in Ulster.

29 Jul 06 - 02:13 PM (#1796298)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Hay, I did not write my comment on here to start any fighting! I think all sides have played a part that has lead to the conflicts in Ireland. I am British, but I am not on any side of the fence here. I am just trying to learn about Ireland, so I wish not to offend anyone. I just felt it was unfair that the people on the Website FAIR deleted my post when I was just asking questions. So William Frazer you cannot deleted anyone's posts on here! Whether a person is a Catholic or a Protestant or a Republican or a Loyalist, both sides should have a say. There is nothing fair about the Website FAIR, as it is so one-sided and it encourages sectarain activity amongst Irish people, which does not help all the victims on both sides.

29 Jul 06 - 02:15 PM (#1796299)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Dear Guest:

Oh, and I thought that was exercise music for the Irish nationalists! (e.g. "The Queen's Own Evaders".)

I was thinking more of music played at events that themselves are confrontational, like potentially violent demonstrations, battles, mob scenes, police actions. etc. Tactical weapons rather than strategic.

Joe

PS As I am an American, I grew up using the tune of GSTQ for singing "My Country 'Tis of Thee".   So the tune itself doesn't have the associations it might for you, Mr or Ms Guest.

PPS Are you related to Edgar A. Guest? As in:

I'd rather flunk my Wasserman test
than read a poem by Edgar A Guest

Just kidding,

Joe

29 Jul 06 - 02:19 PM (#1796303)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

OOPS... somebody cleared all the cookies!!! Sorry!

That last post was me

Joe

29 Jul 06 - 02:25 PM (#1796305)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Alison see you met mudcats equivalent to William Frazer! Side step him we all do. Nice to see you here. Welcome to mudcat.

30 Jul 06 - 05:34 PM (#1797190)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

To GUEST, thank you for your kind comment here. I am British and I am new on here and learning to find my way a round this forum. I was just annoyed with William Frazer's Website FAIR, because one of my posts was deleted from his Website. My post was not hostile at all, as I am not that kind of person. All I asked was some questions! His Website disrepected the ten volunteers who died in the 1981 hunger strikes. I felt this was unfair to the families of these ten volunteers. These families back then in 1981 had to make that awful dicision whether to take their relative off the protest knowing that they would all have to go through it all again or respect their relative's decision and let him die for Ireland. I just feel these families were victims of the conflicts too. It must have been awful to lose a relative in that way. The Website FAIR was so one-sided, as there are victims on all sides of the fence here in Ireland. William Frazer is not bringing peace to Ulster at all, as he is just angering the poeple that are on the other side of the fence to him. Kind Regards.

30 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM (#1797225)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Alison, welcome to mudcat. I have been away since Tuesday morning and I just had to get back on to see what I have either been blamed on or called ! It's great to see you here. There are many members like yourself with Irish blood in them. Now you will see some anti-republican posts appear from time to time, never get annoyed at them, the rest of us find them a source of amusement ! It's so funny how some seem to think they are informed about Irish affairs, really they just search the net to find figures and throw up well doctored accounts at us. As you are no doubt aware our war came to an end exactly a year ago and we are now confidence to finding a peaceful political settlement. Please note this does not suit everyone, sorry, it doesn't suit one member. We have come far in the last twelve months and it's great to see it. Remember if you require the truth about anything concerning Irish history, don't hesitate to ask, always glad to help. You know yourself always best to ask someone who has lived through it than someone who can only read about it and who gives nothing more than consistently Biased one sided accounts.

Again welcome to Mudcat

Divis

31 Jul 06 - 01:24 AM (#1797381)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

Alison,

I came across this link while doing internet searches for bluegrass and old time country music in Scotland and Ireland:

http://www.lowcountryboys.com/

This NI website, obviously posted by Protestants, doesn't have the politics or venom of Mr Frazer's site. I think they might well be right that our "hillbilly" music has a heritage from the Ulster Scots or Scotch Irish, whichever you like better.

In one section in their site they say that they found it funny to be confused with Free Presbyterians. (That's Dr Paisley's church, you know.)   I have good friends in my country who are Presbyterians, and I've met Orthodox Presbyterians ( a smaller American offshoot ), and I love them and disagree on some things with them and agree with other points, but Dr Paisley really goes off the deep end. Google him and read his websites to see what I mean. With him and drug running paramilitary gangs calling a lot of the shots, the protestant/unionist-loyalist/ulster scots (call them what you will) have their share of problems.

I may be naive but perhaps the promotion of the shared folk music heritage between the sides could be a way to start bridging the gap. It would be a lot more constructive than arguing who was worse during the time of "troubles".

Joe

31 Jul 06 - 01:36 AM (#1797383)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: John O'L

...if you require the truth about anything concerning Irish history, don't hesitate to ask, always glad to help...

There is no single truth concerning any history. There are many truths for every event. If you rely on one person's truth only, you will be missing most of it. I don't expect any of the protagonists in this event to understand that, otherwise the argument would have finished long ago.

31 Jul 06 - 06:17 AM (#1797494)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

John O'L I am sure that you are right
Every event can be seen from many perspectives.
That is why I would never presume to start one of these debates. It is also why I try to offer an altenative viewpoint to those who do.

Sweeney, I hope you have been refreshed by your trip.
Welcome back.
You said of someone "really they just search the net to find figures and throw up well doctored accounts at us."

You should not just disregard fgures, if they are objective and not disputed.
Why don't you just point out the errors in the well doctored accounts? Perhaps you could give an example of one.

31 Jul 06 - 07:14 AM (#1797514)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Morning Keith.
For example a site has been mentioned above called F.A.I.R. Now their list of innocent victims has been mentioned here.It's got a question or two hanging over it.

Anyone can stick a list or account on the net and to some it becomes gospel truth.

On the 22nd September 2002 the Armagh Gealic football team won the All Ireland football championship. As you can imagine people were delighted and celebrated on the streets. That night on the television news and several internet sites reported that republican mobs among the supporters attacked a County Armagh Police station with stones and petrol bombs and ripped down equipment. It so happened that I was present in that town and passed that station several times and saw none of this. These reports were issued by the P.S.N.I. and went out for days and the loyalist and unionist parties went on television calling republicans and the GAA everything.

I was called a liar and a republican apologist (nothing new in that)it must be true, because many had read it on the net.

Five weeks later The P.S.N.I. issued a statement saying "no damage occured to the station that day, no stones or petrol bombs were ever thrown" they made a mistake.

This is probably not the type of example your looking Keith, but it goes to show not all "Offical" accounts on the net are always right. That includes Republican sites as well I would imagine.

31 Jul 06 - 07:16 AM (#1797516)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Every event can be seen from many perspectives.
That is why I would never presume to start one of these debates.

But you started this thread.

31 Jul 06 - 07:22 AM (#1797519)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

"For example a site has been mentioned above called F.A.I.R. Now their list of innocent victims has been mentioned here.It's got a question or two hanging over it."

Not posted on this site Sweeney so a rubbish example.

The events you relate were long before you came to this site, so that abuse you got was nothing to do with anyone here.

So PLEASE some ACTUAL examples of what you were complaining of.

31 Jul 06 - 07:32 AM (#1797530)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Guest, I started this thread but not this debate.
It started in a thread about a film. I just moved it here to save that thread.
But you know that.
You were just trying to score a cheap point against me.
Grow up.

31 Jul 06 - 12:42 PM (#1797828)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Alison,
Sweeney posted a warning to you about those of us with a different viewpoint to his.
He said "really they just search the net to find figures and throw up well doctored accounts at us."
He has not answered my request for examples of well doctored accounts, but he has been posting elsewhere.
Is it because there are none?
I could not find any. Can you?

31 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM (#1797837)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Keith we have only to read your accounts of events !

31 Jul 06 - 12:52 PM (#1797850)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

No examples then?

31 Jul 06 - 01:20 PM (#1797876)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

OK, now what is wrong with posting figures?
I admit having done it to make my posts factual and objective.
You tend to support your views with things your Grandad told you, or things that happened to a patient in your hospital, or what some guys once told you.
I would prefer facts and figures please.

31 Jul 06 - 01:36 PM (#1797888)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Now now Keith when all you can offer is someone elses accounts of the events, such as a British soldier or having to spent time going through figures on the net it reads a sad tale.

That is why you will notice so many members come to me either on thread or through pm.

BECAUSE I WAS THERE !

Sorry Keith to have this advantage over you.

31 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM (#1797893)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I do not remember posting a soldier's account.
I try to stick to Irish sources.
Which of my figures do you question?

31 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM (#1797904)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Yes like the ones you posted about the Provo's robbing the Northern Bank !

Just accept you are out of your depth on this subject Keith, I won't hold it against you.

No one ever had to advise me on any thread I started to get out now as I was digging a hole for myself !

31 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM (#1797927)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Do you mean the thread where I ASKED who might have done it?
How could I know who did it. I just noted all the governements, police and security services who were saying PIRA did it.
That was nearly 2 years ago now.
No complaints since then?

31 Jul 06 - 03:19 PM (#1798017)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Not going to fall out with you Keith.

Let's place our cards on the table. I make no bones about my support for the Provisional IRA. I want a united Ireland. I am dam glad the campaign is over. I regret the loss of ALL life.

I lost family and close friends during the campaign. It was sore at times, bloody sore. You think I am a bitter, Well Keith you tend to look towards the forces of law and order over here as victims and the brave.

I sometimes wonder how you would react if they stopped you in the street and made remarks about the murder of someone close to you and hinted they were involved. It en't nice Keith.

You often remark about the actions of the PIRA. The litter bin bombs as you call them. They were wrong Keith.

I mentioned British soldiers who shot kids in the head with plastic bullets. 17 recorded murders, no charges against the Soldiers,I Knew two of these children. Did you ever say that was wrong ?

We are one year on after the statement by the army council which apologised to the families of "non-combatants" for killings it has carried out over the last 30 years.

I don't ask for understanding of those volunteers killed on active service. They accepted that risk.

You can throw facts and figures all day at me Keith but you will never change my mind. You never lived under an occupation I did.

You carefully come to the defence of your soldiers and your governments policies over here. The same policies saw them found gulity in European courts, visit www.birw.org/activities.html
Do you ever say they were wrong ?

We will never agree Keith and anytime you attack the Provisional IRA I will be there. I do not support dissident republicans opposed to the Northern Ireland peace process.

You rarely find me on other threads on this site when it comes to Americans in other countries or the Middle East attacking eachother, simply because I can only express a viewpoint about it, Don't know enough about it and would make a fool out of myself (nothing new in that says you) Yes I have been over there and saw things, but didn't have to live it day to day.

The figures, charts and photographs you pull down off the net will never give you a first hand account Keith.

Believe me on that one.

31 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM (#1798177)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I never posted a soldier's account Sweeney.
You made that up as well.
But your last post was honest and i appreciate it.
I have had a few beers and do not trust myself to reply tonight.
Catch you tomorow.
Goodnight to you,
keith.

31 Jul 06 - 05:39 PM (#1798182)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Keith, I don't want to get in the middle with your arguments here. I don't know enough about Ireland.

Divis, I would like to ask you a question without offended you here. I not writing on here to offend anyone as I am only trying to learn about things going on in Ireland. You say that you support Provisional IRA and not the dissident republicans, who opposed to the Northern Ireland peace process. I take it that you mean the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA, as some of them prefer to be called separately as Real IRA or Continuity IRA? From reading about them it seems that they need to see the the peace process working or they seem to think that the british government won't hand over Ireland to the Irish people. Please do correct me if I am wrong that Continuity IRA have their own peace plan with republican Sinn Fein, which does not include the british at all. I read that the Real IRA feels that this peace process is not going to work as politicians (yours or mine) have failed with sorting out the police issues. They feel the whole peace process is not working. I have also read that the Provisional IRA and the Real IRA are fighting each other over the peace process. I don't get it! They all want the same thing an united Ireland with an Irish rule, but they fight each other. I think that they all have their own pathways in achieving their goals, which in the end it will reach the same finish line with an united Ireland wuth an Irish rule.   

Divis, you have also said, "I lost family and close friends during the campaign. It was sore at times, bloody sore." This must have been awful to lose someone in the conflicts close to you such as family. This makes you one of the victims of the conflicts. You seem to be hurt a little in your post above mine here. I am not on any side of the fence here, but I am saddened by your loss. I think that all sides of the fence here had played a part in the conflicts in Ireland, that is why peace is very important to Irish people so their children don't have to go through what their parents have been through. It is difficult for a person like you to forgive the other side for your loss for the sake of peace. If you can forgive then you are a good person because you are doing this for Ireland and for all the Irish children to come in later years. With respect, Kind Regards.

31 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM (#1798196)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

So, Guest Alison..are you going to be joining us as a proper Member?

31 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM (#1798219)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Paul, I don't know. I am new on here so maybe later on. It seems there are arguments following my posts on here, which I hope I am not causing this to happen.

31 Jul 06 - 06:35 PM (#1798231)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Dear Alison
Yes it is a little complex to say the least. Here is the position. The Provisional IRA were formed late December 1969 to defend the nationalist people of the North. It was a dirty period and it was the people who called for defence of their areas. The campaign was fought long and hard and there was so much loss of life along the way on both sides. There have been several contacts with the British government since 1975. These started at low level and throughout the 1970's and 80's they came and went. By the early 1990's the Conservative government began talks with two senior republicans on a regular basis. These talks involved British ministers at the highest level. This resulted in the 1994 ceasefire. Sadly it broke and the current 1998 ceasefire held firm. Please let me add contact was always initiated by the British.

Early in 2003 it was decided to ask the volunteers on the ground their views regarding ending the campaign. The reality was most of the social aims and objectives of equality had been achieved. The volunteers all had a vote and accepted the leaderships plan. There was one outstanding issue, unification of Ireland.

The British government said Sinn Fein had a strong enough mandate to allow the people to decide, and decide they did. The Shinners are now the voice of Nationalists in the North. Sorry as to the politics of Sinn Fein and what they were offered by Britain in secret deals would require someone else to explain.

The peace deal has saved so many lives. Yes there are issues with policing and I can understand the Shinners relucance to sit on the policing board. There are still too many old school RUC still in uniform and believe me Alison they hate nationalists. A new generation of police will come through and are now made answerable.

Ógra Shinn Féin and the dissident groups do not think S.F.can deliver a United Ireland and the only way to get it is to carry on with the armed struggle.

Alison the PIRA and SF are only voices and tools of the society they come from and people want peace with justice so it's the people that have created this peace we now enjoy. CIRA, the largest of these groups are small in number and with so much security still on the ground can't make a move without the security forces on top of them.

I honestly believe if policing changes take place and the Unionist community see we all have to talk to eachother and live together, the dissident groups will end their campaign. I really hope they do.

The lost of any loved one is hard, many more than me lost friends and loved ones too.

31 Jul 06 - 06:42 PM (#1798239)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Sorry Keith.

I did not mean you ever posted a soldier's account. What I meant was possibly information of events or figures was possibly based on an account of the event from information supplied by the British army.

Sorry about that. Enjoy your evening

Good night

31 Jul 06 - 06:45 PM (#1798240)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

No Alison your not starting any fighting. If anything you have arrived during a ceasefire !

31 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM (#1798258)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Thank you Divis for your time to explain things to me. The dissident groups say they will end their campaign if they have an united Ireland first and then they will give peace accoring to one of their Websites about them. I just still feel that they need to see things working towards an united Ireland for them to agree with the peace process. So if an united Ireland with an Irish rule finally came, then would this cause a lot of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, because Loyalists have pledged to fight this at all costs through violent means? The D.U.P. leader Ian Paisley has a saying "We will fight to we die." I don't think he is working towards peace at all. Some of his comments are laughable, but some of them are hurtful in which some of his followers are attacking placing of worship where Catholic people attend, which is wrong. Why are Catholics, Nationalists, and Republicans treaded as second class people? Why can't it be equal for all sides of the fence here in Ireland? It just seems wrong that things are so one-sided.

31 Jul 06 - 07:55 PM (#1798290)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Because we are political bigots and they are religious bigots ! Don't pay any heed to their chants about backlashes. When the B Specials were disbanded in 1970 they said there would be civil war. They said it again in 1972 when they lost control of Stormont. And again in 1986 when the Anglo Irish Agreement was signed.And again when the U.D.R. was disbanded in 1992. During Drumcree in Portadown in 1997. Again in 2001 when the R.U.C. was disbanded. Full of sh1t, all mouth, they have to accept it's their beloved British government that disbanded and introduced all the above, not us. It's working over here Alison, Paisley won't be around for ever, once he goes the younger blood of the party will want the power in local government, wait and see.

31 Jul 06 - 08:44 PM (#1798312)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Thanks again Divis for your time on here. If I have anymore questions I will let you know.

01 Aug 06 - 04:18 AM (#1798488)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

sweeney,
it is not helpful to reasoned discussion to keep accusing me of things I have not done.
Please confine yourself to attacking my opinions not me.
You claim more credibility because you are Irish, but most Irish people did not support the paramilitaries as you did. You are not truly representative of the Irish.
But you are entitled to your views and I listen.
The implication of many of your posts is that because I am English I should mind my business.
PIRA made it our business by sending their units here to leave their bloody time bombs in our public places.Streets, pubs shops, stations, holiday sea fronts to terrorise ordinary English folk.
You have not forgotten, I hope, That someone close to me was scarred by one of your devices.
A young shop girl in Manchester, she was shaken when the first bomb exploded shortly after she had walked right past it while its timer was counting down.
Her physical injuries in the second were minor, but she found herself standing in a human butchers shop after the blizard of glass scythed through the people. Her friend, another young girl due to be married, had her face shredded.
So we have every reason to take an interest in your activities.
Now, you say that you are sorry for the bombs, but also how proud you are of the bomb planters.
Your view is that the bombs were worthwhile. My view is that they were politically worthless and actually set your cause back.
And that is the only difference between us. Your political aspirations are fine with me.
Bullets in heads and bombs in shops are no way to seek political change.

01 Aug 06 - 04:42 AM (#1798501)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

How long will this silly bickering continue,Keith has been dragged along by a flamer who is clearly an imposter, any person involved with a terrorist organisation would hardly declare to the world he was a member.
Another thing how often have we seen posts from this man under different aliases which have neen similar in character, time to close time.

01 Aug 06 - 04:47 AM (#1798504)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

You say "she was shaken when first bomb exploded ? why how many bombs are you talking about here ?

You said "she walked right past it as the timer was counting down". Police got a 1 hour 40 minute warning ? Please explain why they let her walk past it as the timer was counting down ?

The warning gave police time to evacuate 80,000 shoppers from the city centre - saving countless lives. An hour and forty minutes later, at 11.16am, the bomb exploded.

We are talking about 1996 here aren't we Keith ?

Still note that you never mention the murders by your soldiers of innocent children in Ireland.

01 Aug 06 - 04:53 AM (#1798509)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

GUEST or ..... as I know you. Sorry never said I was a member.
Sorry don't use different aliases.

Really glad I am getting under your skin, pleases me to no end.

Sorry you call for time to close won't be happening either !

Please keep visiting and reading my posts.

Thank you.

01 Aug 06 - 05:17 AM (#1798519)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

There were 2 separate bombings in Cetral Manchester.
Remember?
Thank you for saving lives by warning that you had left a huge time bomb in a busy shopping area, but better not to put ordinary mums out shopping at risk with your bombs at all.

You say I never condemn army crimes.
Yes I do.
e.g. this thread "Like me you deplore the army's killing of innocents, "

I just point out that army killings were miniscule compared to paramilitary killings of innocents (like to see chart again?), and that the army would have left your streets 30 years sooner but for PIRA.

01 Aug 06 - 05:48 AM (#1798533)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Nothing new to offer Keith. Reading the same posts from you for a year now.

01 Aug 06 - 05:56 AM (#1798537)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

And your message, agree with me or die, has not changed for thousands of years.

01 Aug 06 - 06:01 AM (#1798538)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Sorry you feel you can still march over the top of us in Ireland. Answer you can't !

01 Aug 06 - 06:36 AM (#1798549)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

But I don't feel that.
Nor does any other contributor.
Try to answer what people really say, and not what it suits you to believe they say.

01 Aug 06 - 07:23 AM (#1798570)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

My days of being man handled in the street and questioned by your type are over Keith.

Republicans are now the second largest party in the occupied North of Ireland, something that really really gets to you. If you feel the Provisional IRA did not suffer enough for their actions, go cry to your MP because no one else is listening to you.

The war is over and we have peace and our political aims can be achieved around a table. Accept it or in your case swallow that very bitter pill.

01 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM (#1798587)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

You continue to misrepresent what I think, want and say.
Because it is easier to rant at than what I really say?

I am glad for you that Republicans will soon be in the majority.
But do not kid yourself that it is because of your bomb attacks.

Your political aims could ALWAYS have been achieved around a table.

But for your "armed struggle" we could have been here years ago.

01 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM (#1798604)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Your political aims could ALWAYS have been achieved around a table.
But for your "armed struggle" we could have been here years ago.

I think their "armed struggle" went on too long and went too far but I don't believe thier political aims would have been achievable had the IRA never existed. I also believe that the IRA were not the only ones who prolonged matters...

01 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM (#1798614)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

Divis, forgive me, but youre being a t**t today, sorry..(& thats not 'twit', btw...)

Your wish for your United Ireland seems to have taken a back seat to, not scoring points off Keith, but seemingly letting him think he has made a worthwhile point in the debate, then shifting the goalposts.

01 Aug 06 - 08:34 AM (#1798617)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Any reasons for thinking that?

01 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM (#1798629)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Sorry Keith, I forgot. We are entirely sweet, innocent, straight and honest and would have agreed at any time that Ireland could be united without us. All they had to do was just sit round the table and ask nicely. The Brittish army did a faultless job at peacekeeping in NI and never once in any way added to the hatered.

As for the loyalists, I'm sure they must have been doing everything in thier power to achieve peace.

01 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM (#1798657)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

No Guest, a united ireland would still have had to wait for a Nationalist majority.
And no, the army did not do a faultless job of peacekeeping. But what army could have done better, and why were they needed for peacekeeping?

01 Aug 06 - 09:15 AM (#1798671)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

Quite right Keith.

I would like to add to that by saying (& the guests/trolls/whoever can say what they like about me for saying this, I'm really not bothered) that ANY other Army would have done a far WORSE job in that situation, more brutal, less efficient, more indescriminate.

Thats the Army, I mean, not the politicians, Judicial system, RUC whatever...& some may say that you cant distinguish between them, but of course you can.

Anyway...I'm ready for the flak...bring it on...*sigh*

01 Aug 06 - 09:23 AM (#1798680)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Oh I see Paul. You mean like Bloody Sunday. I get it now.

01 Aug 06 - 09:27 AM (#1798687)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

Yep, exactly like that.

Bring in the US Army, or heaven forbid, the Israeli Army, & it would have run right through the week.

Any more examples? I am sure you have them, because they exist.

However, ONE example, hardly refutes my point does it?

01 Aug 06 - 09:33 AM (#1798694)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Keith A of Hertford you appear very self-righteous and continually indignant.

One of your most typical characteristics is your readiness to judge another person's actions and general behavior without ever taking the trouble to determine the real reasons and all the specific circumstances attached to their post. You deem it sufficient to know that someone failed to conform to your demands and then pronounce sentence upon him.

Consequently you handle all the different members who take part in Irish debates as being on one and the same level. When you read of someone's personal experience you become fully justified in indignantly condemning that person for as if he incurred it upon himself, despite the fact he produced valid proof of the actions in question and they were unquestionably true.

Even if Divis Sweeneys "crime" is merely a violation of local Irish tradition, you will respond with full-fledged moral indignation, the more so if the act could shock the site and could in any way be related to a current political issue.

You always tend to suspect the worst in people who speak against any British policy, and you always presuppose and anticipate what their reply will be. You are characteristically opinionated and unshakable in your opinions.

One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault. You will play the part of the individual, unjustly attacked.

You try so hard at shifting the theme in every thread towards republicans, and you will twist the situation into an occasion for exhibiting your forbearance. This attitude embodies an infamous hypocrisy, even calling on other members to elevate and praise you. You also seem to anticipate "being elevated" in the eyes of other members through a sham humiliation.

Allow other their viewpoint and the pursuance of their cause.

01 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM (#1798696)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

No need Paul. I'll just sleep easier tonight safely in the knowledge that we have the best bunch of murderous bastards in the world. Than you for enlightening me.

01 Aug 06 - 09:50 AM (#1798718)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Excellent post Guest 09.33am. Can I please stick an amen under it !

01 Aug 06 - 09:50 AM (#1798719)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

Bloody hell, Guest 9:33, youre a bit late to the party arent you? This particular round of Keith-bashing has been going on for days.

Or ar you someone who's been party to that, & just pretending to have 'newly arrived' to the debate to re-use some old jibes?

01 Aug 06 - 09:52 AM (#1798723)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

...& Guest 9:34, please, you cant leave it at that, not if I said something so contentious?

01 Aug 06 - 09:53 AM (#1798724)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

...& afternoon to you Divis

01 Aug 06 - 09:56 AM (#1798728)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Guest 9.33
Sorry that you feel like that about me.
i do not recognise your criticisms, but I wouldn't would I.
I will reread them and keep them in mind.

But I deny this criticism
"One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault"
Please give some examples, or withdraw that part.

01 Aug 06 - 11:43 AM (#1798846)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Hello Paul, hope all's well with you.

01 Aug 06 - 01:40 PM (#1798985)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Guest 9.33
You said"One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault"
I asked you to provide examples or withdraw.

You have done neither.
That make you guilty of the very sin that you falsely accused me of.

It shows your post to be a baseless personal attack on someone who you can not challenge with actual arguments.

Sweeney, by adding your "amen" to this abuse, you further lower your own credibility, if that is possible.

01 Aug 06 - 02:16 PM (#1799019)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

Remains to be seen Divis....not had the best of days so far, lets see how the evening goes!

01 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM (#1799030)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Thank you Keith, I appricate your compliment.

Again Guest 09.33 I give praise and admiration of your very astute observation. It was kind of you to acknowledge the obvious and see my plight here under continuous provocation.

Sadly ... "there's none so blind than those who cannot see!"

01 Aug 06 - 05:35 PM (#1799217)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Epona

Paul,

If you wake up in the morning, it should always be a good day. That's what I firmly believe...

E

01 Aug 06 - 05:35 PM (#1799218)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Perhaps you could provide some examples for him, if you think he is correct?

01 Aug 06 - 06:02 PM (#1799240)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

True Epona, true

01 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM (#1799279)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

The Lady or Gentleman made several observations, nothing damning indictment of me might I add ! Take your gripe up with them not me.


Clearly don't accept the criticism very well.

01 Aug 06 - 07:00 PM (#1799294)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Divis, you said "No Alison your not starting any fighting. If anything you have arrived during a ceasefire !"

A ceasefire! Not to according to the Website F.A.I.R. They are still some anti Republicans and anti Nationalists on there. I now know F.A.I.R. is a cover Loyalist Website, but I think they might be back on here again soon, as they are discussing the Mudcat Discussion Forum. I am annoyed that my posts have been blocked on their Website again, as I was trying to reply to a Nationalist person (I think). This person is calls his or her self "Tirgra" as this person's e-mail address does not work either. This person also told me about the Mudcat Forum here, but I cannot find this person on here.

Kind Regards.

01 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM (#1799299)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Forget that site Alison, they came here too. Crack pots.

01 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM (#1799308)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Sorry meant a ceasefire among us members. We sometimes get a little cross with eachother ! Don't know any member here called Tirgra. Really sites like that don't want shared views expressed. We argue here, but the site here is very understanding. I visited that site once and found it was poison.

01 Aug 06 - 07:46 PM (#1799334)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Thanks again Divis. Well this person called "Tirgra" told me that Loyalists have done hundreds of terrible things to Nationalists and Catholics in Northern Ireland, for example this person says they have witnessed the attacking a four year old girl's funeral, because this particular Catholic family had to pass through a Protestant street in a Loyalist area. This little girl who died was knockdown by a car. This person also said that the Orange Order people killed three innocent Catholic children, who lived in a Protestant area, so they could march down that Protestant street as they were not allowed before to march down that particular street.

01 Aug 06 - 07:56 PM (#1799346)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Never heard of any of these. Orange Order blamed for rising tension during the Drumcree stand off. Loyalists burned a catholic family called Quinn out of their home, I think it was around Ballymena, three children died in the fire. Must be that they are talking about, never heard of attacks on funerals. As I say, if they are blocking your posts, your better away from them. We are nicer people here anyway !

02 Aug 06 - 12:09 AM (#1799506)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

To Paul from Hull:

What the American or Israeli armies would've done had they replaced the British in NI is conjecture at best. If you're implying they are the heavyweight human rights abuse in police actions champions, I'd say I can nominate some pretty stiff competition. And cover a lot wider political spectrum, too! For example:

1) the Russian Army.

Forget the world class abuse practiced by the Soviet Army, as they are now supposedly defunct. The current Russian army has a very thick AI file for their campaign in Chechnya and the other caucasian regions.

2) The Argentine and Chilean armies.

During their internal wars on dissent, these two machine gunned and threw out of helicopters a pretty impressive pile of victims. And the people responsible have been shielded from prosecution because the governments of those countries are too afraid to do otherwise.

3) The Syrian Army

The Alawite minority runs an army that destroyed a good sized city to defeat the Sunni Muslim rebels. And their record in Lebanon wasn't anything to crow about.

4) The Indonesian Army

Think East Timor, and Irian (New Guinea), and Sumatra, and Borneo,and the South Moluccas and a million Communists in Java..........aw I think you get it.

5) The Serbian Army. They controlled the paramilitaries in Bosnia, and their Kosovo operations were a pretty good exercise in terrorizing a population out of their homes. If they had run the NI operations, our friend Divis Sweeny would either be dead or living in Dublin. Some of the responsible persons were tried in International tribunals, but most are still safe in Serbia.

6) The Nigerian Army. I'd hate to be a country where this kleptomaniac army was providing "Peacekeeping". Not to mention the little affair in the former rebel province of Biafra.

7) the Turkish Army. Not terribly popular among most Cypriots. And the Kurdish people, even those who can't stand the PKK, hate these boys most of all.

If your tacky little dictatorship or budding democracy isn't on this list, I'm sorry but my fingers are getting tired. If I'm going to have peacekeeping troops in my country, can I please have the Irish Army? (The one with the tricolored orange, white and green flag.)

Joe

02 Aug 06 - 03:15 AM (#1799559)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Alison, lovely to have a new voice in our discussion, but please do not import unsubstantiated propaganda from other sites. We have enough of our own.
I could not help noticing that you only imported the one bit of Republican propaganda that you found on a Loyalist site.
We are already completely one sided on that split, with no Loyalist or even Unionist members posting on politics.

02 Aug 06 - 03:22 AM (#1799563)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

sweeney, I was prepared to take those criticisms on board, except the one that I posted false info. and ignored challenges.
He could not give a single example, because it was a lie.
Why should I give any credence to the rest of his bile?

You endorsed and applauded him.

You also could not give any examples of what you falsely accused me of 2 days ago.

He is anonymous.
You are member Divis Sweeney.

02 Aug 06 - 04:01 AM (#1799579)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Yes I endorsed and applauded him or her, they understood the shit I take here and acknowledged it, what did you want me to do, jump to your defence ?

You have a short memory Keith.

Really can't be bothered with your Continued slanging Matches here Keith, from the pm's I get they bore other members silly.

My reason for being here is to defend republicanism from your sustained unwarranted attacks and to answer other members questions regarding Irish matters.

And I repeat my support and understanding for the PIRA campaign.

02 Aug 06 - 04:18 AM (#1799585)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Sweeney,
I have no complaints about you defending, only about you refusing to defend your statements.
I also get bored with having to keep pointing it out.

02 Aug 06 - 05:01 AM (#1799608)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Always best to allow others to decide our rights and wrongs Keith.

Think if you read above they have !

02 Aug 06 - 05:07 AM (#1799610)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I would rather lose a debate than make unfounded, false accusations and personal attacks on the other side.
Enjoy your victory.

02 Aug 06 - 05:37 AM (#1799631)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Not here for victory over anyone Keith.

02 Aug 06 - 07:52 AM (#1799687)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Keith, you said "I could not help noticing that you only imported the one bit of Republican propaganda that you found on a Loyalist site."

This person called "Tirgra" actually wrote to me on this Loyalist Website in reply to one of my post's that finally got throught to their Website. I was just inquiring about these issues that's all. I have been talking with Loyalist & Unionist supporters from other guestbooks, which I cannot seem to find reason with any of them about Irish issues, as they are so one-sided about things. I am not trying to post progaganda on any side of the fence here. I am myself not on any side here, but I just wanted to ask some Republican supporters, for a change, about these issues from their side of the fence on here. I admit I just get confused with what is real and what is not real about things that have happened in Ireland. I am sorry if I upset you in any way. It was not my intentions to upset anybody here, as I just wanted to discuss Irish issues that's all with someone that is a Repulican, Nationalist, or Catholic to hear their point of view. Kind Regards.

02 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM (#1799688)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Divis, you said "Loyalists burned a catholic family called Quinn out of their home, I think it was around Ballymena, three children died in the fire."

Yes, you are right it was the family called Quinn where the three children died that this person called "Tirgra" was talking about. I never meant to upset Keith on here. So I am sorry. Kind Regards.

02 Aug 06 - 08:21 AM (#1799693)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Dear Alison
Don't ever say sorry here for speaking the truth. You were right to use the example which you did.

You are very welcome to discuss Irish issues here with us, frankly I feel that remark made against you by Keith was uncalled for, but never allow this to cause you annoyance, don't expect an apology either !

Irish related manners tend to stir up emotions here from time to time, but we sort it out in the end.

Regarding the murders of those three children by Loyalists on behalf of the Orange Order, here is a news report about it.
Best wishes

Three young brothers have been murdered in a loyalist arson attack in Ballymoney, Northern Ireland.

The boys - Richard Quinn, 11, Mark Quinn, 9, and Jason Quinn, 7 - were asleep in their beds when a petrol bomb was thrown through a window at the rear of their terraced house at about 0430 BST.

Their mother Chrissie, 29, her boyfriend Raymond Craig, 31 and a family friend, Christine Archibald, 18, escaped with minor injuries and are suffering from shock.

The Quinns were Catholics living on the predominantly Protestant Carnany estate, but they were accepted by the community and attended a Protestant school. Mr Craig is also a Protestant.

A fourth brother, Lee, was staying with his grandmother.

Threatening letters

Chief Constable of the RUC Ronnie Flanagan said: "What happened last night wasn't protest. We believe we're investigating the sectarian murder of three children."

The attack comes after a week of protests by Orangemen demanding access to the mainly nationalist Garvaghy Road as part of their annual march at Drumcree church.

Over the past week Catholic and mixed families across the county have received abuse and threatening letters.

02 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM (#1799705)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Alison, did I not start by saying how lovely it was to have your voice in the discussion?
I really did not think I was being unfriendly.
You never need to worry about upsetting me.
Say what you think.
I know you would not stoop to making false accusations as you have seen others here do.

02 Aug 06 - 10:12 AM (#1799759)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

Joe Richman,

I acknowledge youre right in listing all those you did as typically brutal & heavy-handed national forces.

I actually just used the Americans & Israels as "topical" examples, if I can call it that.

03 Aug 06 - 12:00 AM (#1800262)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

No problem Paul.

My Dad had a good time in the US Army. Got his nose bashed in fighting up in weight class. I also have friends and family in the US military currently, but they're Navy. The US public is not too tolerant of non-combat abuses, so this limits how bad the US army can get in a peacekeeping role, although it is difficult to make charges stick in any such case. Certainly an open policy of being savage such as the armies I mentioned in my previous post isn't there.

From what I know about Israel's army, they are very much a cross section of the Israeli population since service is universal (except for most Arabs). As the enemy has shifted from Nationalist to Islamist, I think Israel has gotten rougher. Fighting an enemy that believes in suicide attacks is going to cheapen one's sense of value of human life. "If they don't value their own lives why should We?"

In Ireland, the so-called "Catholic" side has always really been Nationalist. However, as near as I can tell, Rev Paisley is not an Ulster Scots Nationalist. Mr Sweeny or others from NI may want to confirm this. He strikes me as more of a religious fanatic. Very difficult to do anything with, just as the Israelis were more able to deal with the Nationalist Fatah than with the religious Hamas.

Joe

03 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM (#1800269)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

I came across another interesting NI music website. Here's the URL:

http://www.fifeanddrum.co.uk/Diana/thesis.htm

Near the end is an interesting story of "cooperation" between the Hibernians and the Orange Order. I won't spoil it for you.

Joe

More rottenness from Joe! Turning this BS thread back to music.

03 Aug 06 - 12:34 AM (#1800270)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Joe,
Paisley is one of the more extreme leaders from the protestant community. They are mostly pro British rule and are the majority vote in the North.Their majority is dwindling. It is less common to define by religion now. They would be called Unionists (as in United Kingdom) or Loyalist (more extreme)
The Catholic community tend to be Nationalist, i.e.Irish Nationalist, or (more extreme) Republican. They are now the majority population, but not yet at voting age.
Hope that helps,
Keith.

03 Aug 06 - 12:37 AM (#1800271)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

That is OK with me Joe.
It is Sweeney and Epona who hate the music.

03 Aug 06 - 04:07 AM (#1800326)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Keith A of Hertford you appear very self-righteous and continually indignant.

One of your most typical characteristics is your readiness to judge another person's actions and general behavior without ever taking the trouble to determine the real reasons and all the specific circumstances attached to their post. You deem it sufficient to know that someone failed to conform to your demands and then pronounce sentence upon him.

Consequently you handle all the different members who take part in Irish debates as being on one and the same level. When you read of someone's personal experience you become fully justified in indignantly condemning that person for as if he incurred it upon himself, despite the fact he produced valid proof of the actions in question and they were unquestionably true.

Even if Divis Sweeneys "crime" is merely a violation of local Irish tradition, you will respond with full-fledged moral indignation, the more so if the act could shock the site and could in any way be related to a current political issue.

You always tend to suspect the worst in people who speak against any British policy, and you always presuppose and anticipate what their reply will be. You are characteristically opinionated and unshakable in your opinions.

One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault. You will play the part of the individual, unjustly attacked.

You try so hard at shifting the theme in every thread towards republicans, and you will twist the situation into an occasion for exhibiting your forbearance. This attitude embodies an infamous hypocrisy, even calling on other members to elevate and praise you. You also seem to anticipate "being elevated" in the eyes of other members through a sham humiliation.

Allow other their viewpoint and the pursuance of their cause.

03 Aug 06 - 04:28 AM (#1800336)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

That is a bad stutter guest.

03 Aug 06 - 04:38 AM (#1800337)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Keith A of Hertford When and where exactly did the two members you name say they HATED the music ?

Please provide evidence.

03 Aug 06 - 04:52 AM (#1800342)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Oh the little pixie in Keith A of Hertford is pushing the boundry to see what happens today again. Sad really.

03 Aug 06 - 04:59 AM (#1800345)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

RE: BS: PIRA Invests In Manchester
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:37 PM

If your not saying the right things then you shouldn't be on it. So why have this section ? It was recently brought to my attention via a friend. So sorry no interest at all in Blues, folk, jazz, country, gospel of diddle dee music

03 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM (#1800347)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Scully

Please close this bloody thread of his. It goes away and he resurrects it.

03 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM (#1800348)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Subject: RE: BS: PIRA Invests In Manchester
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 11:27 AM

eric the red. Why is that what you have to do to get into your gang? list musical rants ? My taste is Jimi Hendrix, Curved Air and Motorhead. And we did a lot more than plant bombs in litter bins. And I am very proud of the work our boys did.And no I am no idle boaster. Next question.

03 Aug 06 - 05:03 AM (#1800354)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Keith A of Hertford that is not good enough. You said TWO members HATE the music. Please provide us with the posts in which both members use the word HATE.
Thank you

03 Aug 06 - 05:03 AM (#1800355)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Look again Scully.
It is not me who resurrects it.

03 Aug 06 - 05:05 AM (#1800359)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Scully

Christ what is this guy going on about now ????????????????????????

03 Aug 06 - 05:09 AM (#1800362)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Keith where is the word HATE is the above post please. And when did Epona say it ?

What is this about ?

Did these two names members say they HATE the music, YES OR NO ?

03 Aug 06 - 05:13 AM (#1800364)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Fair point Guest.
Please delete "hate" and insert "do not like"

03 Aug 06 - 05:19 AM (#1800368)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:13 PM

Never have explored the music threads...not once. I joined for the discussion on the BS threads, for the chance to learn things that I had not been exposed to before. So, no, not everyone is here for the folk first, though it's definitely possible that many are! I hope this helps explains some of our presence (non-folkies in mudcat land).

E

03 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM (#1800374)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Good Morning Keith,

I hope I find you well.
Oh dear it's doesn't look good for you so far ! Do I see nasty little pork pies today again ?

Really Keith, I never ever said I HATE the music. Can't speak for Epona, still sleeping I would imagine, don't worry I will pm her and let you know lies are on the menu today again !

Doesn't look good for you in the popularity stakes reading some of comments above.

Then again a willingness to embrace the truth and apologise isn't one of your strong points.

Have a nice day.

03 Aug 06 - 05:33 AM (#1800377)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Big difference in that and the word hate. So have either member used the word HATE ?

Yes or no? If not this makes your statement a lie, does it not.

03 Aug 06 - 05:36 AM (#1800378)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Not a lie, just exagerated do not like to hate.
Which I have already corrected.
It was a year ago!
But what do you mean "again"
Where and when have I ever lied?
Examples?

03 Aug 06 - 05:43 AM (#1800384)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Oh Keith is that your way of saying sorry you wrote something which was not true about me ?

Hope Epona is as understanding.

Hope your day takes a turn for the better.

03 Aug 06 - 05:48 AM (#1800390)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Epona

Keith, where and when have you ever lied? Here's an example. When you said I hated music. And then changed that statement when challenged to "do not like". And we're drifting again....

And how about that's the last I'll discuss that with you? You start to faulter and you change the subject. When you have something new to say, let me know. Hopefully I won't need my walker to get to my computer by that time.

The horse is dead...let's move on.

E

03 Aug 06 - 05:55 AM (#1800393)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Morning Epona

I am used to this with Keith. One of the reasons so many other members leave the Irish threads.

Did you note he is yet to use the word SORRY !

03 Aug 06 - 06:02 AM (#1800396)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Epona

I'm shocked! :) What did you expect, Divis? I'm off to save lives (haha)...

E

03 Aug 06 - 06:13 AM (#1800402)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Read your posts again Sweeney.
It comes across that you do hate it without using the word.
If you say that is too strong, I accept it and have already toned it down, but most people would make the same mistake reading those posts.
It does not make me a liar, and if you can not come up with some other example you should take it back.

Epona, if you emphasise that you never, ever look at the folk threads it does sound like you hate it.

03 Aug 06 - 07:55 AM (#1800425)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Right so what your saying Keith is you can read my posts and Epona's and if a meaning "comes across" to you, you can change the word, for example to "HATE" or like "MURDERER" ?

Yes understand you now.

Regarding "most people" making the same mistake reading it, I haven't noticed anyone else coming on saying, Divis you and Epona are saying you HATE the music, well not yet anyway.

Ah well maybe a Guest or two will appear before the day is done and support your case !

03 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM (#1800429)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Divis, I finally got my post through to the Website F.A.I.R. to reply to the person called "Tirgra." I had to word it carefully so it was not bias to either side of the fence. I just wanted to pre-warn you that they have been discussing the Mudcat Discussion Forum again. They are truly unfair people. To be honest they are like snakes waiting to bite someone that is not agreeable to them. I think they will be back on here soon as it seems that they are building up support first. Kind Regards.

03 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM (#1800431)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Are you really saying, Sweeney, that it is impossible to convey hatred without using the word hate?
Of course not.
And you conveyed it.

03 Aug 06 - 08:47 AM (#1800454)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Hello Alison

Hope all well with you. Really don't worry about those guys at F.A.I.R. seen in the local paper that any government funding they were getting has been stopped because of some statement they made on television. So maybe they are just angry.

There are much nicer people here !

Don't worry about their snakes waiting to bite, some appear here from time to time, but just like St, Patrick I tend to deal with with them !
That's if they haven't already bitten themselves in the ass !

03 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM (#1800482)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

to Divis Sweeny:

1) In your opinion is Ian Paisley an Ulster Scots Nationalist or a religious nutcase? (Or perhaps something else?) When I asked before,only Keith answered, and He's not from NI (although I value his opinion). No matter what Republicans think of him they have to deal with him.

And a new question....

2) Is it true that the IRA/Sinn Fein intimidated the Ancient Order of Hibernians as mentioned in that link I gave?

Joe

03 Aug 06 - 10:49 AM (#1800551)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Dear Joe
One thing we can't do is dismiss Ian Paisley. He is the leader of the largest political party in the North of Ireland. Spoke to a friend last week who attended the talks with the D.U.P. and he said he was a lot more reasonable than he comes across on television.

Yes we can say he is this and that and a bigot, but he is very charismatic and does a great job for the people he represents. He belongs to a very different culture from myself, but I still respect him, only a fool wouldn't. I don't respect his views of nationalists/republicans or some of the groups he was involved in or some of the statements he made.

When someone can weld so much power and authority they need to be careful how they influennce the young. I feel during the early years of the troubles, he made a poor job of this. Actually he is hated more among the loyalist UFF,UDA and Red Hand Commando, he speaks out again their leadership a lot, yet never refuses their support at rallies. He was also the voice who ripped through the Ulster Unionists for their involvement with David Ervine an ex UVF bomber.

I would call him a Ulster Scot who hates catholicism and has a fear of anyone talking to British ministers wishing to break the union with Britain. I also think as he gets older and steps down a new younger breed will be much easier to talk to. He falls out with everyone, fell out with the church and started his own church, fell out with the Orange Order and started his own lodge. Fell out with the Unionist party and formed his own party ! And has a great following in all of them. A fool can't get that much support.

Sorry John I can't speak on behalf of Sinn Fein, I can only express a viewpoint. I do know there is no love lost between them and the Hibs.
What you linked there could well be true. I know many older republicans hold a great dislike for the Hibs, I think it comes from their leadership speaking out against the armed struggle on more than one ocassion. There was a group called the Hibernian Rifles which fought in the rising of 1916. They were funded by America. They formed in 1914 and numbered in hundreds. Eight died in the rising, few of them actually turned up when the fighting started. They never want associated with them today. There was a leadership connection.

Best wishes and hope this helps.

03 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM (#1800648)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Thanks Divis, the Website FAIR has finally admitted in their guestbook that my posts have been blocked out of their site. They saying that I think that Catholics should be able to have a say and also Catholics should be allowed to live too. They finally got something right!!! They have been discussing the Mudcat Forum and from reading what they have been saying, they have been reading our posts here as they have made comments about things I have said recently. It is important for the world to know the truth about the Website FAIR. I am glad people like you can have a say on here.

03 Aug 06 - 12:53 PM (#1800658)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Alison I seen these guys on the street here, they are like the BNP you see over there, very small following and don't really have a lot to offer. I would imagine they wouldn't take to me then ! Stick with us and I am more than glad to answer any questions you may have. Stay away from that crew on F.A.I.R.
Take care

03 Aug 06 - 04:33 PM (#1800815)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Divis, you said "Stay away from that crew on F.A.I.R."

Thank you, but I do not have a choice now, as I am blocked out from them. They don't seem to understand that their Website is misleading the public. When I first found this Website FAIR, I thought is was a genuing site about all victims of conflict, but I found it to be one-sided. It is also anti IRA and this does not help to bring peace to Ulster if they anger the other side of the fence to them. I understand that there are probably some real victims attached to this Website FAIR. Maybe if they stated in the title that it was all Loyalist and Unionist victims in the first place then maybe people might have not got so offended over it. I am not trying to offend anyone on either side of the fence here, but they cannot say that Catholics cannot exist. Kind Regards.

03 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM (#1800959)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Alison
Probably their way of saying they don't want anyone speaking against them. We welcome everyone here, and your post needs to be really bad to get the axe here.

03 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM (#1801050)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

Divis,

One reason why I don't care much for the IRA is what I perceive as a "my way or the highway" attitude. Intimidating an organization such as the Hibernians because they have chosen not to engage in violence is exactly what I would have expected from them prior to their current incarnation. Now that Sinn Fein is angling for votes, they can't afford to alienate so many groups on the Nationalist side, which certainly would include most Hibernians.

I don't hear much about the AOH out here in California, but I think they're big back east in NY and Boston (the St Pat's parades). Out here in the West we have the Knights of Columbus as the big Catholic men's service organization. I'm Protestant (a Wesleyan background), but the K of C helps out with the local handicapped population on a non-sectarian basis, and my daugher (who is handicaped) has been helped by them. She also goes to a program at a local Presbyterian church (United Presbyterian, not Free Presbyterian). In a civilized community, non-political service organizations play a big role in making life better for all.

I thought it was kind of funny, the idea of a shared Lambeg drum repainted for March 17th and July 12th. It is symbolic of the sort of cooperation between the two societies in NI that will be needed for a brighter future. It is sad also that the Lambeg drum, whose roots are    probably non-sectarian in Ireland, has been relegated to use only by the Protestant community when it once was popular in both communities.    In a way it is a bit like the instrument I play: the 5 string banjo. Originally played almost exclusively by Blacks, it now is played almost exclusively by white Country musicians. The use of the banjo in Minstrel shows that belittled Blacks made it unfashionable. It almost died out but was resurrected by Country string bands.

Maybe my dislike of Paisley is because I'm a Protestant from a different branch of the Faith. Methodists, Charismatics and related Pietists don't tend to believe in the Calvinist doctrines of the Elect and Predestination. And Paisley's wierd love of the King James Bible is way over the top. I think he likes it because most of his congregation can't understand it, so they have to take his word for what it means. As I recall, King James was a High Church Anglican who loathed Presbyterians. Many of his relatives were Catholic, too.   At Churches I have attended, a Catholic is welcome to take communion as long as they are Believers in Christ. Of course if I agreed with Catholic Doctrines that differ from Protestant ones I'd convert. I never will, of course.

Joe

05 Aug 06 - 09:46 AM (#1802076)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Sorry Joe
Just read in the other thread "Folkies who support the IRA" A message from Keith saying you reqiure an answer from me ? Please let me know what question he is talking about, glad to answer anything.
Best wishes

05 Aug 06 - 10:42 AM (#1802093)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Sorry Joe, just spoke to Keith, misunderstanding. We now see no questions were posed.

05 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM (#1802185)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

Divis,
You answered honestly the question I had. Keith gave his opinion, too (about Paisley). I hate to say it but you seem to have a higher opinion of Mr Paisley than do Keith or myself.

Joe

05 Aug 06 - 01:46 PM (#1802197)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Don't like the man Joe, He has zero tolerance of the likes of me and what I believe in. I feel it's very important that we do not under estimate our opponents. When a member of my family was murdered he was the first to make a public statement in which he condemned those responsible and when a reporter put a question to him that many believed paramilitaries were not behind it and that a more 'sinister element' was behind the murder, he said he would not dispell this theory. At the time I thought this to be Out of character for him.

05 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM (#1802420)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

Divis,

I see where you are coming from.   You see Paisley as a wily but principled enemy whom you can't afford to underestimate. Keith and I see him as an embarrassment; Keith sees him as an embarrassment to the British, and I see him as an embarrassment to Protestant Christians.
(Please correct me, Keith, if I have misspoken on your behalf.)

Joe

05 Aug 06 - 10:29 PM (#1802470)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

I see him as an embarrassment to the human bloody race...

06 Aug 06 - 05:36 AM (#1802588)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Joe, although the Loyalists are pro British rule, ordinary Britons do not feel an affinity to them.
It is all part of the NI sectarian divide which we do not feel part of.
We tend to feel bemused by his like, not embarrassed.

06 Aug 06 - 06:56 AM (#1802608)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Paisley being elevated to the House of Lords in recognition of his work in Ulster politics still remains a surprise and a joke to many people throughout the world that I have spoken to. Now his wife is heading there too ! How could they do this to a man who openly ridiculed the faith of others. It's not only the Catholic church he has a go at. He gives them all a touch. He was lucky to get out of the European Parliment alive when he made a protest against the Pope. Fine example of a member of the House of Lords. So many Ulster Loyalists who visit England hate being called Irish. Remember one I worked with called the English thick for calling him a paddy. The concept of a singular Ulster Protestant identity, defined by its loyalty and Britishness, is fragmented, leading to a plurality of Ulster Protestant identities.

06 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM (#1802937)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman

This old song made popular by Charlie Poole & the North Carolina Ramblers, particularly the 2nd verse and chorus, says everything that I want to say about this thread, and the situation in Northern Ireland. (Got it off Mudcat, of course!)


YOU AIN'T TALKIN' TO ME
(M. Marshall/S. Brooks)

I went up to a lady's house to bum a bite to eat.
She fed me on some pork and beans and pie. I called it sweet.
She says, "Now, Bill, I sure did feed you good.
Would you walk out in my backyard and chop a stick of wood?"

CHORUS: You ain't talkin' to me. No, you ain't a-talkin' to me.
I may be crazy and all like that, but I've got good sense, you see.
You ain't talkin' to me. No, you ain't a-talkin' to me.
You fed me good but I can't cut wood, and you ain't a-talkin' to me.

(Repeat above chorus)

Now, me and my wife has ups and downs all through our married life.
Said to me one day, "Bill, let's stop the scars and strife."
Then went out upon the lake one evening just about dusk,
Said, "We'll drown ourselves. No one to grieve for us."

CHORUS: You ain't talkin' to me. No, you ain't talkin' to me.
I may be crazy and all like that, but I got good sense, you see.
You ain't talkin' to me. No, you ain't a-talkin' to me.
When the lake goes dry, it's time to die, and you ain't talkin' to me.




It's a great song for making up additional verses to about any absurd situation you might be facing.

Adios Partners!

Joe

10 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM (#1806829)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

Alison, I see that you say your posts got blocked from the FAIR website. Well, if it's any consolation to you, so did mine. My crime was to post some polite, but firm questions to Wille Frazer (FAIR frontman) about some of the assertions on his website and a few other matters. I was never rude, nor aggressive, just asked some hard questions. Willie is quite content to let Loyalist and Republicans engage in a slagging match on-line as nothing serious gets debated and both sides get to look like foul-mouthed polemicists. But there are many inconsistencies in his site which he won't allow to be discussed. Moreover, the guestbook is 'cleaned up' every two or three days, so you can't follow or refer back to the whole thread of a discussion unless you save the web pages (which I have been doing).
To the others on this forum - sorry, I know this post has little to do with your thread, so I'll sign out here. Just wanted to let Alison know the above.

11 Aug 06 - 05:43 PM (#1807609)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Nick hi, have you read on the other thread called "Folkies supporting IRA" others have had their posts deleted too from FAIR. A lady called Fiona was researching her family history and she asked FAIR a simple question about a place in South Armagh where her mother was born. They replied to her to say the place she was asking about is full of IRA men and then they deleted her post and blocked her out so she could not reply to them at all. They at FAIR are so one-sided. Many republicans, nationalists, and Catholics over the weeks have had their posts deleted and they are also blocked out too. If FAIR cannot answer your questions, they delete your posts and accuse you of writing sex comments. I am not on either side of the fence, but I have been accused of being a republican and a member of Sinn Fein. It is all so ridiculous! Kind Regards.

11 Aug 06 - 05:54 PM (#1807626)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Hi Divis, I feel that the DUP Ian Paisley's comments are laughable at most times, but some of his followers are attacking Catholic places of worship, which is wrong. If he would resign then maybe the the hatred will end. Kind Regards to you.

11 Aug 06 - 05:54 PM (#1807628)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

My own morbid curiosity made me visit that site. It's rubbish. All comments of a sexual nature in their guest book.

11 Aug 06 - 06:06 PM (#1807645)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Guest hi, I know the people who call themselves Dan and they are not the ones writing all those sex comments. They are trying to have a political debate, but FAIR cannot answer these simple questions if it is not agreeable to their views so they accuse others of writing sex comments sometimes using other people's names to do so. It happened to me! I only asked why is their Website so one-sided and all anti IRA?

12 Aug 06 - 11:04 AM (#1808113)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

GUEST,Alison, Never heard of them till now, made a visit this morning and it's all in house fighting. They don't seem to want peace in that country.

12 Aug 06 - 09:02 PM (#1808445)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

To Guest: (11:04am)

People in Ireland - epecially in the North - do want peace, and a chance to live normal, fulfilled lives. But peace is not just the absence of violence, it is a fair and just society where people all get an equal start. Willie Frazer (FAIR) isn't interested in any of that, like many loyalists he yearns for a return to the days when loyalists could use Catholics as door mats, in short he'd like to drag the country back into the late 17th century. He allows all the rubbish slagging matches because there's no time or space then to ask serious questions about the nonsense spouted on his site. For instance, his home page carries (or carried, I haven't looked in a while) a pic of IRA volunteers alongside a pic of Hizbullah or Hamas or whatever (PLO scarves and RPGs) with the caption "Look Blair - no difference fundamentalists!'. I posted a question asking if he was seriously trying to equate IRA volunteers with Hizbullah volunteers on the basis of religious motivation (Wille is quite anti-Catholic). If so, why is it that I have never heard the IRA invoke religion in any of its statements and why it is always Loyalist paramilitaries who cry 'For God and Ulster!' If anyone was bringing religious fundamentalism into the picture, it was these loyalist paramilitaries!! For this, and for asking some other more serious questions (like about his false accusations against someone for being involved in a murder - in the North you must understand that such an accustaion, whether true or not, could easily translate into an unofficial death penalty, as a relative of the victim(s) might decide to administer private justice. Willie knows as much, and it was highly irresponsible of him. The PSNI had even asked him to remove the link, which last time I checked a few months ago, he hadn't) I found myself barred from posting comments. So much for the invocation to 'help us tell the truth'!

13 Aug 06 - 12:45 PM (#1808823)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Guest and Guest Nick, Willie Frazer's & co at FAIR are very very anti Catholic. They have made comments on FAIR that they think Catholics should not have a say or let alone live. I am not on any side of the fence here, but I have recently spoken to the people that call themselves Dan who are writing in to defend themselves in the guestbook on the Website FAIR. All this sex talk is not comming from them at all. Again with the Dan people, you can have a serious political debate even if you were on the other side of the fence to them. They do not abuse the public at all for asking any questions about Ireland issues. You would only get your post deleted if you were hostile towards them or any other person writing in to their guestbook. The Dan's are republicans, but are very nice understanding people to talk with. Kind Regards.

13 Aug 06 - 12:52 PM (#1808828)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Guest Nick, you said "IRA volunteers alongside a pic of Hizbullah or Hamas"

I feel that the IRA are very different from the Hizbullah or Hamas. All the IRA want is Irish unity and the british to leave Ireland, as the Hizbullah or Hamas wants world donation (I am unsure of my spelling here), which is a worthless cause.

13 Aug 06 - 03:18 PM (#1808944)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

I made a spelling error in my last post here, the correct word is "world domination." I did not have time to check my spelling before. Kind Regards.

13 Aug 06 - 04:54 PM (#1809008)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Orla

I signed Mr. Fraser's guestbook last night after reading you guys here and asked him would he confirm he was the same William Frazer who was photographed with his catholic mates at a GAA match in Dublin in 1977. I also asked him about his two convictions under the umbrella of a organisationed loyalist paramilitary group. And finally his arrest and questioning regarding the thief of items from the clothes line of a female neirbour. He did not reply and this morning it was removed from guestbook !

13 Aug 06 - 05:53 PM (#1809054)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

To Orla
"He did not reply and this morning it was removed from guestbook "
- Surprise! Surprise!

No, he's not interested in any hard questions. But I hear that FAIR are thinking about coming back to march in Dublin again next year. Last year they got run out of by rioting youths. The media initially blamed Sinn Fein for orchestrating the riots, but it emerged they had nothing to do with it. Anyone who had been following their forum last year in the run up to their arrival in Dublin would have seen they were spoiling for a fight. Posts from self-described loyalists taunted that they would save some buffet from the laid-on lunch in memory of the 1980 hunger strikers (Bobby Sands et al). Others said that nothing smells as good as fried Pope's head etc., I saved all these posts for future reference. Well, they got their fight and I doubt they were disappointed. They capitalised on it to claim that the South was infested with priests and republicans and unable to 'embrace unionist and Orange culture'. Unfortunately we have at present some idiotic Ministers in our government, well-meaning but idiotic, who cannot distinguish between genuine unionists wishing for their culture to be understood, and hooligans like those behind FAIR and "Love Ulster' for whom culture seems to mean trampling on everyone else and insulting them into the bargain. Willie refused to guarantee that he wouldn't allow marchers in the Love Ulster parade to carry posters of the Loyalist paramilitaries who planted the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombs that killed over 30 people between them, right past some of the places where the bombs went off! I am no big fan of Orangeism - it was set up in 1795 to promote Protestantism at the expense of Catholics - but I could accept their marches, drums etc., if it was just a parade and expression of their culture. As long as it a way of trying to dominate through bigotry and a thumbing of the nose, I'll have even less time for it.
Thanks to the idiots in government, FAIR might actually make it back to march in Dublin in front of the people they so despise, this time protected by a heavy police presence. The idiot Ministers won't gain any respect from this exercise, either from the Southern population or even from FAIR. And unionists themselves ought to be worried if FAIR are invited to march, as they could hardly have worse ambassadors for Unionist culture pretending to represent them.
I hope that the powers-that-be have more sense.

13 Aug 06 - 07:06 PM (#1809111)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Orla

Hope they do return to Dublin shows them up in the eyes of the world. One of their leaders Jim Dixon said "I will walk through Dubliners blood next time" They will be able to mop it up will William Frazers clothes line prizes ! Seems all they been doing lately is perverted chat, possibly a code of some sort. Hate is eating them from the inside out.
Their Love Ulster parade saw a 50% drop in numbers compered to last year according to Daily Ireland.

13 Aug 06 - 07:28 PM (#1809116)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Al in Boston

Read their site book, it's heavy shit going on in it.

14 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM (#1809595)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Guest Nick, I had a reply from a republican about the people behind FAIR. This person said, "Wille Frazers group also went to Dublin last year to parade with anti catholic bands and also they held up pictures of that b***** McConnell who was convicted of murderering scores of innocent people in Dublin with no warning car bombs." I have changed the swear word above to b*****, as I did not want to repeate that word on here.

The Frazer's & co are always claiming to be innocent!!!!

Republicans march in their own areas to remember an IRA volunteer. Loyalists attached themselves to anti Catholic bands to encourage sectarain activity against Catholic people.

You said, "Posts from self-described loyalists taunted that they would save some buffet from the laid-on lunch in memory of the 1980 hunger strikers (Bobby Sands et al)." I have seen these kind of remarks alot in other guestbooks made by Loyalists & Unionists supporters alike this year. I guess it is to do with the 25th Annerversary of 81. It must be awful for these republican families to read these nasty comments made about their relatives who died in the 1981 hunger strikes.

14 Aug 06 - 05:36 PM (#1809829)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

Alison,

sure. What FAIR and like-minded organistaions don't seem to appreciate is that you can disagree with someone's politics without getting nasty and personal. I know that it can be quite difficult in the North not to end up getting personal, after all the people who are arguing on FAIR's guestbook have been very close to the tragic events that went on in the North for over the last 25 years (and before that). If I am not mistaken, Willie Frazer lost a few family / relatives during the Troubles and of course that can make someone bitter and vengeful, especially if these things happen when you're a child and that's your whole reality, your whole view of life. But the same could be said of numerous republican families in South Armagh so, as a relative of victims himself, Willie should have a better grasp of what relatives of republican victims feel. While Willie has lots to say about republicans being still involved in criminality and hate-mongering (though the PIRA was given the all-clear in this regard recently by the South's Minister McDowell, a guy with never a kind word for them at all and who would be the first to condemn them if he thought otherwise) but essentially his website is about continuing the war by other means. If it provides him with a safety valve for his feelings, maybe that's better than him picking up a Sterling sub-machine gun etc., but the worry is that it might incite others to do so.
My feeling is that voices like Willie's will become less relevant as the years go by and people in the North work out a way to move ahead to a better life. Personally I don't really bother with Willie's site anymore, just keep an eye on it the odd time and save some of the posts in case I decide to write an article on it at any stage and need them for reference.

14 Aug 06 - 06:01 PM (#1809856)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Great Rally yesterday in Casement Park to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the hunger strikes at the Maze prison.

The main speaker at the event was Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams and it was jointly compered by Sinn Fein MEP Mary Lou McDonald and fellow party member Toireasa Ferris, the mayor of Kerry.

Casement Park comes under the jurisdiction of the GAA's Antrim County Board and it did not object to the rally as some media reports said it did.

14 Aug 06 - 07:23 PM (#1809911)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

Divis Sweeney

I was very interested in what you said about the Antrim County Board of GAA not objecting to the commemoration. The Irish Examiner and probably the Irish Times (I didn't see the latter, but the stories are usually similar) claimed the GAA objected to it. Where on earth did they get that story? It reminds me of two headlines I saw, both claiming to quote 'senior Garda sources' (i.e the Garda press office, probably) about a Securicor van heist last March or Feb. The Irish Times headline: "Dublin criminal gangs blamed for €4 million heist'. The Daily Mirror headline? "Gardai blame Provos for €4 million heist" ! Evidently this 'Garda source' was telling different newspapers different things, or one paper was just making it up as they went along. Could anyone get a letter into either the Examiner or Irish Times about the GAA 'statement'? It'd be great if someone with the details did.

14 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM (#1809915)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Nick I think headquarters in Dublin felt they had to make a noise or two , to keep themselves right. The guys from the county board said during the week, "who could stop a crowd of over 25,000" The D.U.P. are just out to get the boot into the GAA. After all it was them called the GAA the provo's at play.

14 Aug 06 - 07:39 PM (#1809916)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

Divis Sweeny,

thanks for clearing that one up. There's always more to the media than meets the eye! Typical that they reported only the Dublin GAA though and not the county board (at least I didn't see any mention of the county board in the article).

14 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM (#1809920)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Nick All of the stewards there were county board and club members, could not of been more helpful. Laid on a meal for the speakers after the event and had the car parks running like clockwork before and after event. Could not praise enough.

15 Aug 06 - 10:43 AM (#1810341)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,billy sands

Alision and Nick. You are so wrong.

15 Aug 06 - 02:27 PM (#1810469)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

I have seen your posts on that awful web site billy sands. I know who I believe and wonder how you can shame the name of Sands so.

DtG

15 Aug 06 - 04:44 PM (#1810554)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

From: GUEST,billy sands


"Alision and Nick. You are so wrong".

1) About what?
2) At least we use our real names
3) I was lucky my name was shorter - at least you managed to spell that correctly. Alison has to make do with 'Alision'

15 Aug 06 - 05:03 PM (#1810570)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

I just visited the FAIR site / guestbook again out of sheer morbid curiosity. I read a few posts then almost laughed my newly eaten dinner out all over the table. Anyone even ATTEMPTING to follow the labyrinthine accusation and counter-accusation of various literary vandals accusing each other of endlessly posing as each other would soon end up a helpless, schizophrenic wreck. It is like a very degenerate version of a House Of Lords debate along the lines of 'No, Honourable speaker, I did NOT call my Honourable friend an ass" Posts appear claiming to be so-and-so and almost immediately another post appears: 'that last post was NOT me'. Then another post follows immediately after that, stating 'that last post claiming to be me saying it was not me, was not me' !

I am beginning to suspect Willie Frazer writes it all himself!

15 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM (#1810581)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Nick, bit of a development to over Sundays parade. The GAA's Central Council in Dublin has said the rally broke its rules about staging political events. In future, Casement Park must be kept exclusively for sporting purposes.

However, it is understood the GAA's Antrim County Board had no problem with the event.

It made headlines today due to a few Loyalists giving the GAA a bit of stick. It came as no surprise to me the stance the Dublin Headquarters of the GAA took. I remember they banned the distribution of leaflets in their grounds during the Hunger Strike.

I would not be a big lover of the GAA in Dublin.

15 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM (#1810608)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

GUEST,billy sands, I know you are from that Website FAIR. I don't why you people keep contacting me. Colin from Pontzpass also from FAIR contacted me on another thread. I only asked why the Website FAIR is so one-sided and why is it all anti IRA? You people could not answer it so you deleted my posts and accaused me of things like being a member of Sinn Fein etc. I am not on any side of the fence here and I am from England. I am not a hostile person either. I just stated on the FAIR Website that there are victims on both sides that have been hurt through the conflicts. So if you do not have a Loyalist view on things, you cannot have a political debate on your Website FAIR. How many times are the members of the public going to have their posts deleted and themselves blocked out of the Website FAIR for asking simple questions?

16 Aug 06 - 07:18 AM (#1811021)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Guest Nick you said, "If I am not mistaken, Willie Frazer lost a few family / relatives during the Troubles and of course that can make someone bitter and vengeful, especially if these things happen when you're a child and that's your whole reality, your whole view of life."

Republican families feel the same too about loosing their relatives through the troubles, but their Websites are not anti Loyalists. So far as I know from reading about Willie Frazer, he had lost his father and four other relations due to the IRA during the conflicts. So I do understand that he has been very hurt by this and I have said in some my other posts here and on other guestbooks that Willie is a victim himself, but angering the other side of the fence to him does nothing but bring hatred to Northern Ireland. It is not the road to peace blaming the IRA for everything. As I have said before I feel all sides of the fence here all played a part in the conflicts, which would includes all the IRAs, all the Loyalists & Unionists paramilitaries, and also the British Army. We are all to blame, but we all need peace for the future of Ireland so the children do not have to go through what their parents and other ancestors went through. I think that the Willie Frazer's & co are affraid of Irish unity with an Irish rule and they feel that they need to fight against it at all costs to prevent Ireland becoming together as one.

17 Aug 06 - 07:19 AM (#1812110)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Divis Sweeney posts as Epona

Divis Sweeney posts as GUEST Alison

Divis Sweeney posta as GUEST Nick

Divis Sweeney posts as GUEST billy sands

Divis Sweeneys posts as GUEST

Stop this silly one man show

17 Aug 06 - 09:19 AM (#1812223)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Dear dear Guest you must really be annoyed with me. Pleases me to no end. Come on you must be able to do than that ? Go on have a think about it and come back again. Oh dear did you expect me to be angry ? Sorry !

17 Aug 06 - 09:31 AM (#1812230)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,LEJ

Troll alert. Good one DS. Take the piss out of him.

17 Aug 06 - 01:11 PM (#1812360)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Dave the Gnome

You've room to talk, Guest - I have seen you post as Guest, Guest, Guest, Guest, Guest and Guest - And that's just on this thread!

:D (tG)

17 Aug 06 - 08:47 PM (#1812698)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

To our anonymous guest: yawn.

17 Aug 06 - 09:06 PM (#1812711)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Boston Boy

Guest if you have issues with your mother why bring them here ? Maybe she was lonely, felt unattractive or simply in need of company. Her reasons for not giving you a father is between you and her. Now get off our site and troll elsewhere.

23 Aug 06 - 08:39 PM (#1817472)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

Alison, Orla et al:

Just popped back to look at the FAIR website, and found a way to post comments to it. It seems the 'sign our guestbook' link doesn't work for some reason, so you can try 'signing the dreambook' link instead. I tried it, and it posts the comment to the same guestbook anyway. It remains to be seen if I'll be blocked out from that route also. Not that I'd be very bothered. The site had some interesting discussions once (back around last January) but it's just gone to the dogs now, and I'd have no interest in getting embroiled in the endless nonsense posted there.

24 Aug 06 - 01:29 PM (#1818015)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Guest Nick, thanks. The Website FAIR are mostly using the Dan Darragh name to write to themselves to try to discredit the real Dan Darragh people. I find that Website FAIR laughable really with the things they are coming out and saying on there. The serious side of it is that the Dan Darraghs are trying to tell the truth and defend themselves from these FAIR people. The Website FAIR is very sectarain so I have not even attemped to write back to them, but they won't leave the Dan Darraghs alone. The Dan Darraghs are very determind to clear their name, as it is not very nice when these people from FAIR are using their name all the time to make sex comments etc., as it makes the Dan Darraghs look bad in the public eye, which is wrong! Kind Regards to you.

24 Aug 06 - 07:12 PM (#1818232)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Guest Nick, I do sometimes read for interest the guestbook on that Website FAIR. I have found the one post that you had mentioned here that you recently had sent to them. They have now called you and Dan a "demon." This was said by some religious type of person, which could have been one of those FAIR people. If you ask them a question, they will use your name to tell lies about you.

It is all ridiculous!
Kind Regards.

24 Aug 06 - 09:32 PM (#1818327)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

Alison,

I couldn't resist having a peek myself. I noticed the 'demon' comment. Then there was the 'Popish Plot'. They'll have us plotting to blow up the Houses of Parliament with kegs of gunpowder next. That's all right. Their interpretation of Christianity is so warped that to be called a 'demon' borders on being a compliment (since they intend it to imply the opposite of how they see themselves).

25 Aug 06 - 07:29 AM (#1818567)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Sir Ian Paisley

It is a well known fact amongst the mudcat cognescenti that ALL these GUEST posts are made by Divis Sweeney. Why don't you leave this site Divis? No one is reading any of this terrorist shit anyway.

25 Aug 06 - 07:47 AM (#1818582)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Can't be divissweeney he's in hospital.

25 Aug 06 - 07:49 AM (#1818583)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Oliver Cromwell

Must be Epona/Divis then. You are all a disgrace for fouling up a blues site with your political shit.

25 Aug 06 - 07:56 AM (#1818589)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Londonderry Paras

It must be littledrummer then. NO SURRENDER. UP ULSTER

25 Aug 06 - 08:57 AM (#1818636)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

I've never believed that Guest Alison is Divis Sweeney, though right from the off I HAVE felt that Alison IS a fake.

However, everything that 'she/he' says about FAIR is true, it really only needed saying ONCE.

25 Aug 06 - 09:05 AM (#1818645)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

There are some 'suuposedly' intelligent people on here being done up like the proverbial kippers. It's funny though for us to watch.

25 Aug 06 - 09:10 AM (#1818651)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

Not sure why, if it that easy, its worth the bother....

25 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM (#1818676)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Leadfingers

400 ??

25 Aug 06 - 10:53 AM (#1818740)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Keith, you should always be careful what you wish for. It would now appear that we have some voices from the loyalist community on the mudcat. I for one look forward to the spirited, intellectual discourse.

25 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM (#1818929)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison

Paul from Hull, I am not Divis Sweeney. I am myself Alison. If someone writes to me about FAIR, I will reply to them that's all.

25 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM (#1818955)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull

I know youre not Divis, Alison.....thats exactly what I was saying.

It seems likely now that the only ones keeping this thread going are the ones who also fuelling the fires on the Fair site, & by that I again don't mean YOU, Alison.

Anyway, the 2 chaps who started this thread (Keith in response to Divis, & therefore Divis himself, in a sense) are long gone from it, so high time I went too.

Alison if youre wise, you'll give up on it too...we are only helping the trolls keep it going, until we stop posting.

26 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM (#1819486)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Nick

Glad to see no-one was accusing me of being anything (other than myself!) But, Paul, I agree with you that this thread has wandered off topic, and I'm partly to blame myself. Maybe it's time to start a different thread, like "Is FAIR un-FAIR?" or whatever. But I probably won't bother either, as THAT site seems like a small self-contained world that's quite self-sufficient.

26 Aug 06 - 01:38 PM (#1819501)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

I am not Divis Sweeney. I am myself Alison.

I don't think you are Divis Seeney and your name may be Alison but you are not what you portray yourself as. That has been clear right from your early posts.

26 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM (#1819508)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Revival is a hackneyed word. Many have used this word to gather people around themselves, instead of around Jesus. And people think any revival is not coming. They refer to 2 Thess. 2:3 and tell about the great Apostasy. But this Apostasy has take place a very long time ago, and is still continuing. The great Apostasy is NOW!

The great Apostasy happened a very long time ago. The entire Christendom was lead astray by false shepherds and preachers, which preached false doctrines. Since then, God's people have been slaves under lots of denominations and churches. Before Jesus comes, God's people must be released from all denominations and churches, the great Babylon. Therefore, a real Revival must come before Jesus comes.

26 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM (#1819648)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Alison M

Guest you said, "I don't think you are Divis Seeney and your name may be Alison but you are not what you portray yourself as. That has been clear right from your early posts."

Then you must be reading somebody elses posts called Guest Alison, as there is another person with the same name as me. I came here at the end of July 2006.

26 Aug 06 - 05:40 PM (#1819652)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Alison M

Guest, I also do not sign in sometimes to reply to someone so my name does sometimes state Guest Alison.

26 Aug 06 - 06:42 PM (#1819689)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

No Alison M, I was referring to you. I do know there is a long standing member called Alison.

I apologise if my assesment is wrong but things have felt "convenient" rather then "right" to me. It has had the air of a "staged production" to me.

Guest, I also do not sign in sometimes to reply to someone so my name does sometimes state Guest Alison.

You had not posted at all as member Alison M until today.

27 Aug 06 - 06:29 AM (#1819899)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

27 Aug 06 - 06:37 AM (#1819901)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Alison M.
Have I got it right that you joined in July but posted as Guest Alison until yesterday?
Any way, nice that you are a meber now. Perhaps you will share with us your interests in the music.
One of the most fun things about membership is meeting other members.
Which part of England are you from? There are sure to be some members in the same town.
Welcome to Mudcat,
keith.

27 Aug 06 - 07:49 AM (#1819920)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

The Allied Special Forces Interrogation Group. Hereford UK. Tel. 01432-357666 ...

27 Aug 06 - 01:25 PM (#1820046)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Alison M

Keith A of Hertford hello, you are right I did join the forum here at the end of July. I wanted to pm Divis Sweeney a question about Ireland. When I am signed in, my name is Alison M as there is another member called Alison on here. I do like most music including U2. I am originally from Worcestershire, but living in Gloucestershire.

Guest you said, "You had not posted at all as member Alison M until today." Does it really matter?

Thanks Keith.

27 Aug 06 - 02:05 PM (#1820075)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Guest you said, "You had not posted at all as member Alison M until today." Does it really matter?

Not really but considering you hadn't posted at all as a memeber until that day (and you had mane not at all when I made the comments to which you were replying),

Guest, I also do not sign in sometimes to reply to someone so my name does sometimes state Guest Alison.

is a somewhat odd statement to make don't you think? There was no "sometimes" about it.

27 Aug 06 - 02:06 PM (#1820076)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Great to see you here Alison a big welcome. Don't be put off by such remarks.

27 Aug 06 - 02:49 PM (#1820112)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: dan darragh

WE IN THE DAN DARRAGHR.F.B. BALLYCASTLE DO WRITE INTO FAIR WEBSITE DEFENDING OURSELVES AND TELLING TO THE WORLD THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS LOYALIST SCUM.EVERYTIME WE OUTSMART THEM THEY TRY TO BAN US BUT WE ALWAYS HAVE A DIFFERENT WAY BACK.THE ONLY WAY THEY TRY TO DISCREDIT US NOW AS THEY CANT BAN US IS TO WRITE IN BULLSHIT ON THERE OWN MESSAGE BOARD USING OUR NAME.IF YOU ARE READING THERE POSTS AND YOU GET A LETTER FROM D.D.R.F.B. THAT DOSNT MAKE SENSE THEN YOU KNOW WE NEVER WROTE IT.UP THE PROVOS,TIOCFAIDH AR LA

28 Aug 06 - 11:58 AM (#1820758)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Alison M

"Guest, I also do not sign in sometimes to reply to someone so my name does sometimes state Guest Alison.

is a somewhat odd statement to make don't you think? There was no "sometimes" about it."

Guest, I have signed in sometimes, but this was only when I have pm someone because you have to be a member and be signed in to pm someone, and only that particular person would have seen my name during that time. I hope this explains things.

28 Aug 06 - 12:29 PM (#1820772)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Alison M

Welcome to the Mudcat Forun Dan Darragh and thank you for telling the truth too!

28 Aug 06 - 09:20 PM (#1821206)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: dan darragh

THANKS ALISON,WHERE IS EVERYONE?

29 Aug 06 - 03:37 AM (#1821422)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I must be very stupid.
I would not know how to stop my member name appearing on a post.

29 Aug 06 - 05:17 AM (#1821462)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

?

29 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM (#1821555)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

Actually its quite easy Keith.

29 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM (#1821556)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Voila!

29 Aug 06 - 08:34 AM (#1821557)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

And this is me back again with name intact.

29 Aug 06 - 09:52 AM (#1821636)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I feel even more inadequate now!

29 Aug 06 - 10:49 AM (#1821698)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

click this, Keith that will log you out.

29 Aug 06 - 11:01 AM (#1821708)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

And how would you get back?

29 Aug 06 - 11:50 AM (#1821739)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Just do as you always do.

29 Aug 06 - 04:09 PM (#1822002)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Click on this or follow the membership link at the top and log in.

30 Aug 06 - 10:05 AM (#1822684)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den

I think you're having us on Keith.

30 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM (#1822724)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Meaning?

30 Aug 06 - 11:03 AM (#1822729)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:47 AM

No reply then.
You did owe me an apology this time Den.
It took a long time to count through those figures, and I found that my perception was correct and that you were completely wrong.

30 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM (#1822797)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I thought that random copying of my old posts by anonymous Guest had finished.
How the long evenings must fly as you dredge them all up, you sad, obsessed no life.

As it happened, Den had not had chance to reply, and argued that he had meant something different.

You have always been straight in debate Den, not trying to mislead let alone lie. I doubt that you have used your ability to post as a guest.

Have I ever given you cause to doubt my honesty?

Keith.

30 Aug 06 - 01:19 PM (#1822811)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Could somebody please close this silly, stupid thread. Can those of us who were once foolish enough to contribute to it please make a gentlemans agreement NOT to post to it. Keith STOP replying to GUESTS, Christ can't you see they are pulling your chain and you are doing exactly what they want. Then again, you probably have me down for it. Either way I couldn't give a toss.

31 Aug 06 - 07:35 AM (#1823436)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bobby Sands

I won the "Irish Slimmer of the year award" in 1981 you know. Where's my donkey?

31 Aug 06 - 07:44 AM (#1823446)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Bobby Sands

Why not visit me at F.A.I.R. ? We are good God fearing Protestant Ulstermen. Keith from Hertford good to see you are one of us.
NO SURRENDER. "GOD IS GREAT".

31 Aug 06 - 10:55 AM (#1823599)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Mr B.S.
You may be who you claim to be, or an opponent creating a grotesque caricature, but either way you have no support from me.

31 Aug 06 - 11:40 PM (#1824213)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Epona

Welcome, Dan Darragh. I would've welcomed you sooner but Time Warner's damn Road Runner internet is fighting with me so I'm lucky to be able to slip online!

If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you're lucky enough. ;)

E

05 Oct 06 - 05:31 AM (#1850819)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: ositojuanito

I read the posts on Ireland and Northern Ireland with great interest. I was once upon time quite active in pursuing a United Ireland myself, albeit in a peaceful way, but today I see more pressing issues. In twenty years time or even less, the indigenous could be outnumbered by the immigrants from Eastern Europe and emigres from Africa and other nations. I wonder what the founding fathers of the state would have thought of this future Ireland. I am not a rascist and I never will be and I think that integration is a wonderful thing, but there isn't very much of that going on here at the moment. My point is that the state has to put a curb on immigration no matter how healthy our economy is at the moment.

John Hartery

05 Oct 06 - 06:25 AM (#1850837)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: The Shambles

When I was young I was always quite sypathetic towards 'Finians'.

Not that I knew what one was. But I knew that a 'bastard' was a poor unfortunate born our of wedlock or who did not know their father or who their father was.

For the word 'Finian' always seemed to be followed by the word 'bastards'.

05 Oct 06 - 06:28 AM (#1850839)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle

Its funny how these people trying to sell stuff have fastened onto this thread and the Dubliners one.

05 Oct 06 - 09:01 AM (#1850920)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: ositojuanito

I think the word you're looking for is 'Fenians.'

John

05 Oct 06 - 09:16 AM (#1850939)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Snuffy

Fignons?

05 Oct 06 - 07:23 PM (#1851510)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Andy

I have to agree with Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde who said he agrees with the latest report on IRA activity by the Independent Monitoring Commission.

The report said the IRA had changed radically and said that its most important structures were dismantled. Sir Hugh told the Policing Board the PIRA has gone.

I myself as a member of the loyalist community do believe that the (Provisional IRA) have no intention of going back to an armed struggle in any way shape or form in terms of activities. I accept what the IMC was saying.

Sadly the Policing Board said that sick leave cost the police service £30m in lost days over the past 18 months, its the worst force in the United Kingdom for causal sick leave.

The two governments have given the politicians until 24 November to reach a deal on devolution. I now feel the time is right for unionists to sit with S.F. and get on with the business of running Northern Ireland. We all must put our past behind us.

06 Oct 06 - 03:19 AM (#1851740)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Why is a high rate of police sick leave such a problem?
SF refusing to accept the authority of the police is more of a problem.

06 Oct 06 - 03:45 AM (#1851754)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

The Northern Ireland Police Servic remains higher paid than any police force in Britain. The average annual earnings for rank and file officers is approximately £36,500 or £700 per week. This includes a special allowance of £1,900 to meet the needs of policing Northern Ireland.
Over here the ``English Bobby'' of comparable status would have to work their way through the rank of Constable Sergeant, Inspector and Chief Inspector to earn such wages. The yearly policing budget for Northern Ireland is a staggering £600 million and it provides not only a luxurious lifestyle for its members but also the most modern methods and equipment to protect them from all types of attack.

27 serving police officers were charged with the murders of catholics and membership of the UVF/UFF and Red Hand Commando.

Their hate of the nationalist community in Northern Ireland is well known. The Northern Ireland police have been found guilty on sixteen ocassions in the European courts of human justice.


But the most illuminating insight into the political characteristics of the force came from an academic, Graham Ellison, who conducted extensive interviews with constables. He found that deep seated sectarianism and anti-Catholic bias is rife among personnel. Many support loyalist marchers. All had absolute hostility towards Catholic members of the force and Catholic neighbourhoods.

Maybe there has to be a few changes before nationalists trust them, it's not black and white.

06 Oct 06 - 04:43 AM (#1851794)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

SF refusing to accept the authority of the police is more of a problem.


Keith, if 27 of our police officers were charged with murdering Muslims maybe we would have questions too.

06 Oct 06 - 04:53 AM (#1851797)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

solution?

06 Oct 06 - 05:32 AM (#1851806)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

You asked the question Keith.

06 Oct 06 - 06:50 AM (#1851847)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I didn't think that I did, but
"charged" is not the same as convicted
If some police have behaved badly in the past, so have some now respectable Sinn Fein officials. Just move on.
Catholics and nationalists can now join without fear of reprisal from their communities. The force can become more representative.
Bottom line. There is no alternative. There has to be policing.

06 Oct 06 - 07:01 AM (#1851853)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

If some police have behaved badly in the past ! We are talking murder here Keith. Who are the respectable Sinn Fein officals you are talking about, who did they murder?
Home Service Royal Irish Regiment being disbanded today.
They join a list of failed security force murder gangs such as B'Specials, U.D.R. and R.U.C.

06 Oct 06 - 07:04 AM (#1851855)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Did not some Sinn Fein serve as volunteers withPIRA?

06 Oct 06 - 08:01 AM (#1851897)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

Sorry Keith, Someone remarked on Ulster policemen who were charged with murdering catholics. Your reply was "so have some now respectable Sinn Fein officials" And you said "some Sinn Fein served as volunteers with PIRA". Who were the IRA volunteers now Sinn Fein officials who were charged with murder ?

06 Oct 06 - 08:46 AM (#1851924)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

Perhaps none were charged, but PIRA was responsible for many, many murders and do not all members share responsibility?

06 Oct 06 - 09:15 AM (#1851937)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST

ulster has got peace but Keith doesnt want peace he wants revenge

06 Oct 06 - 09:21 AM (#1851940)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford

I thought I was just suggesting that past wrongs of police and provisionals be forgotten.
Revenge?
I agree with Sweeney. The conflict is over.
Keith.

06 Oct 06 - 09:31 AM (#1851948)
Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney

Watching this from sideline, not getting involved. Understand that everyone including the British government has accepted the recent report that the Provisionals war is over.