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21 Jun 06 - 12:00 AM (#1765239) Subject: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Anonny Mouse Zarqawi's death appears to be much like pulling one's hand out of a bucket of water. Now, "Mr. Evil" is Abu Hamza al-Muhaje. Just to fill in his resume, he apparently oversaw the cruel torture and murder of the 2 servicemen captured. And it was reported that "He, himself cut both their heads off." What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers? |
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21 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM (#1765243) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: CarolC What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers? Oh, I don't know... they're tired of us bombing their countries back into the stone age maybe? Or maybe they're tired of us propping up brutal dictators in their countries (if they don't happen to live in the ones we are currently bombing)? Maybe that's it. Or maybe they're tired of us killing their women, children, and old men. Could be any of those. |
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21 Jun 06 - 12:20 AM (#1765250) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Amergin Or it could be they use these as an excuse to gain power to satiate they're own thirst for blood... |
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21 Jun 06 - 12:31 AM (#1765256) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: CarolC You're talking about the Bush administration, right, Amergin? |
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21 Jun 06 - 01:53 AM (#1765281) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: freda underhill history repeats itself |
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21 Jun 06 - 02:25 AM (#1765291) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: dianavan "What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers?" I'm sure the mothers of the Iraqi children who have been killed and maimed by the U.S. and its allies, are asking the same thing. |
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21 Jun 06 - 02:45 AM (#1765302) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: GUEST,ifor One problem is there has been a long and detailed history of American and British interference in the Middle East. Both countries have undermined or halted democratic ,progressive or nationalist movements from Egypt to Iran and beyond. Governments have been overthrown, countries have been invaded, dictatorships have been supported with finance and arms and state terror has been quietly funded all in the interests of Big Oil.Whole populations feel humiliated by imperialism. Iraq has been plunged back into barbarism caused and fuelled by the invasion and occupation.Its time to get out. ifor |
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21 Jun 06 - 04:19 AM (#1765334) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Paul Burke ANYONE who ever seriously contemplates the use of torture has put themselves outside the pale of humanity. And anyone who assists them, or turns a blind eye, or voices support, is equally guilty. That includes terrorist organisations, states, police forces, armies, and individuals. The murders are clearly designed to provoke the occupying forces, either as policy or just at platoon level, into taking retaliatory actions which will be almost inevitably against the wrong people. Another turn of the screw. |
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21 Jun 06 - 04:22 AM (#1765336) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: John O'L Yes the coaliton of the cretinous has done all the good they are ever likely to do for the people fortunate enough to be selected for their benevolence, it's time they left. It can't be fixed, it can only be made worse. |
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21 Jun 06 - 04:24 AM (#1765337) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Stu "ANYONE who ever seriously contemplates the use of torture has put themselves outside the pale of humanity. And anyone who assists them, or turns a blind eye, or voices support, is equally guilty" So that damns virtually everyone who lives in the US and Europe then for starters, as our governments actively participate or assist in torture. Guantanamo, rendition, cluster bombs and daisy cutters, Abu Grahib, Camp Whatever in Kabul etc etc etc. |
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21 Jun 06 - 05:53 AM (#1765372) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Mr Fox Pity the coalition of the Clueless haven't read any Terry Pratchett:- "Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot one, and there'll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?" from 'Lords and Ladies' |
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21 Jun 06 - 07:04 AM (#1765405) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Ernest Iraqui children killed by coalition forces = victims Iraqui children killed by terrorists = martyrs ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? |
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21 Jun 06 - 07:15 AM (#1765411) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: CarolC The people who consider them martyrs when they are killed by terrorists also consider them martyrs when they are killed by coalition forces as well. |
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21 Jun 06 - 07:57 AM (#1765426) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: GUEST CarolC - you do have the answers. Don't you? |
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21 Jun 06 - 08:04 AM (#1765430) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: sian, west wales I've been thinking that I should do more to learn about all this stuff so I'm going to start reading. I flew to Canada and back recently, so picked up something at the airport to kick off - "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Wake-up call for Honesty and Change" by Irshad Manji. It's in the form of an open letter to her fellow Muslims. I'm finding it very interesting. Like any book, it's probably very slanted, and I think she's tending to ramble in bits, but I'm glad I started with her. I have a few others lined up, but I think than some Catters might find this an interesting read with some ... challenging?... ideas. sian |
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21 Jun 06 - 08:06 AM (#1765431) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: McGrath of Harlow Paul Burke makes the most cogent point - atrocities happens as a way of provoking a response that will justify continued bloodshed. The only distinction between atrocity and reprisal is one of book-keeping. Reprisals are a kind of collusion. Everyone who ever carried out an atrocity can point to some earlier action that justifies them in claiming that what they did was an appropriate or at least excusable reprisal in kind. And if even that ever fails there is the old saying "get your reprisal in first." ..................... We shouldn't try to make too much of the word "martyr" in this context. The word for "martyr" is the same as the word for "witness" in Arabic, as it was originally in our languages. "The countless white crosses in mute witness stand". |
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21 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM (#1765446) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: freda underhill Sian, you might find this website interesting: Islam and Iraq It discusses Iraq and the war from a Muslim perspective. The site is attached to another site for Progressive Muslims. regards freda |
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21 Jun 06 - 08:56 AM (#1765458) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Bobert Recruiters need boogie-men... When the war-mongers couldn't find Osamo-bin-forgotten, they elevated Zarqawi to boogieman de jour and when they killed him they had to hurry another boogieman de jour into service... |
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21 Jun 06 - 09:07 AM (#1765464) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Greg F. Shit. You mean killing Zarqawi ISN'T going to make Eye-Rack safe for democracy & bring this clusterfuck to an immediate end? Who Knew????? |
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21 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM (#1765516) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: CarolC If you say so, Guest,21 Jun 06 - 07:57 AM. I actually didn't form an opinion on whether or not the US has done more harm than good in Iraq until sometime in the last few weeks. But now that I have an opinion, I am prepared to defend it vigorously. |
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21 Jun 06 - 10:26 AM (#1765521) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: sian, west wales Thanks for that, freda. I've bookmarked it. All grist to the mill. sian |
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21 Jun 06 - 11:24 AM (#1765569) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Donuel Its not Eyerack , its Ouraq. |
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21 Jun 06 - 02:58 PM (#1765759) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Wolfgang The "new boss" by now is only a name to be read in some bulletins. It could be a single person but it also could be just an invented name used by a group as a cover. As Paul has written, the brutal murders are meant to provoce a reaction, but that's only one aspect. The other aspect is propaganda for their way of fighting. That is the message for the supporters: We are the strongest and most brutal fighters. The new Mafia boss needs to make a show af strength. Just in case.... Wolfgang |
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21 Jun 06 - 03:12 PM (#1765773) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: GUEST,Amergin No, Carol, I was not referring to Bush....I was referring to this new fellow, Abu Hamza al-Muhaje. Whenever, there is an uprising against a foreign occupier or even a rebellion against a home grown leader, there are always those willing and eager to commit murders and other atrocities in order to fulfill their political needs...whether or not their cause is a just cause. While, I do understand the motive for many of these people who are fighting back and I sympathise with their position...I cannot sympathise with their actions as it is our boys and innocent civilians who are getting murdered in heinous ways. This being said, blokes like al-Zarqawi and al-Muhaje, would still commit these crimes, even if we up and left the Iraq tomorrow. They would do so in efforts to enforce their brand of policies, irregardless of what the majority of the population yearned for. One thing, I do not understand though, are your weak attempts to justify their actions. This war is wrong all aournd, there is no right side, all are wrong, and the justifications for both sides of the fence, are an injustice to human race at large. |
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21 Jun 06 - 03:16 PM (#1765779) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Anonny Mouse Sorry folks: apples to oranges. When was the last time your saw U.S. military brutally TORTURE a person, and then send in their "general" to slice his head off with a saw-knife? It AIN'T the same. Anyone who says it is, is mistaken. Yes---innocents have been killed, mutilated, died: but we do not FILM such atrocities as "PR" for our audience; we do not "celebrate" such things as an "Allah Akbah" occasion. I have yet to see any convincing evidence that Americans tortured and sawed off the head of an Iraqui (or Jordanese, or Iranian). You're liberal assholery is showing. What would YOU have us do? Pull out, and let things "be what they will be?" regardless of the consequences? |
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21 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM (#1765796) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: CarolC I have not attempted to justify their actions, Amergin. The question, "What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers?" was asked, and I attempted to answer it. And I don't agree that they would necessarily be committing these crimes if their countries were not being bombed into oblivion by the US and/or crushed under the heels of our puppet dictators. Since you don't live in one of the countries where the US has been meddling and creating total chaos and/or propping up brutal dictators, you don't even know how you would respond to such acts of aggression if you lived in one of the target countries. It's quite a fallacious illusion for you or anyone to assume that you wouldn't be doing precisely the same things that "these psycho/sociopathic murderers" are doing if you found yourself in their shoes. The US has killed many, many more tens of thousands of them than they have killed of us. To suggest that they are any more "psycho/sociopathic murderers" than we are is the height of hypocrisy. But perhaps you don't consider the brown skinned people of the Middle East to be fully human or something, and that's why you only consider it a crime to kill us but not a crime to kill them. |
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21 Jun 06 - 03:32 PM (#1765802) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: CarolC We have tortured quite a few people to death, Annony Mouse. I don't see how being tortured to death could be any less unpleasant for the victim than having one's head cut off. When you call people "liberal assholery" for objecting to the needless slaughter of many thousands of innocent civilians, it shows just how completely you have sold your soul and your humanity. Objecting to the needless slaughter of innocent life is NOT a liberal concept. |
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21 Jun 06 - 04:23 PM (#1765840) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: GUEST,ifor Reply to Mouse We don't need you to tell us it is grusome to hack someone's head off.....but what is the difference between that and blowing someone's head off as the US military has been doing in large numbers for the past three years. And as for filming the war crimes I seem to recall the guards at Abu Ghraib doing a good job at that with their cameras and the resulting torture details being sent rapidly around the world ! ifor |
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21 Jun 06 - 06:57 PM (#1765986) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: GUEST,van lingle Yes, Annony Mouse, bully for us and our humane brand of torture. We are far too discreet to film it (Abu Ghraib ,of course, was just some light hearted buffoonery) and much too civilised to celebrate it for PR purposes. And kudos to us for out-sourcing our "torture clients" to less evolved allied nations for pro-active information gathering. Bravo!vl |
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21 Jun 06 - 07:10 PM (#1765995) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: John O'L What would YOU have us do? Pull out, and let things "be what they will be?" regardless of the consequences? That is arguably more humane than staying indefinately trying to repair the damage we've done, and continuing to fail |
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21 Jun 06 - 09:58 PM (#1766135) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: dianavan "but we do not FILM such atrocities as "PR" for our audience; we do not "celebrate" such things as an "Allah Akbah" occasion." Yeah, you just hire the hit men. No need to dirty your hands when you have all those men under military orders. Your guys don't even have the balls to admit what they've done. They're cowards who hide and lie to cover up their atrocities. As far as celebration goes, I think your media does a pretty good job of broadcasting the number of insurgents killed by your troops. |
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21 Jun 06 - 10:43 PM (#1766158) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: GUEST Excuse me all of you self rightious people from across the pond but last I heard Great Britain still had troops in Iraq. They are probably also killing innocent people and doing the same things that the US forces are doing. So criticize you own government as well as ours please. |
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22 Jun 06 - 02:35 AM (#1766224) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: dianavan If you are referring to my comments, perhaps you should know that I am not from "across the pond." |
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22 Jun 06 - 03:30 AM (#1766238) Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss From: Paul Burke Weren't we criticising the British government? Read what was said again. ANYONE. That means the Taliban, Al Qaida, the Burmese generals, the Chinese, the American government, the British Tonyistas, the old Iraqi state, the new one, the European countries who collaborate with "rendering", the people who supply the equipment, the private "security" firms now so popular with big business in many countries, and so on. And don't pretend that it's anything to do with God or freenamoxy. |