BS: The British who fought for Hitler

03 Jul 06 - 05:40 AM (#1774560)
Subject: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey

Some people may not be aware of this, but the Nazi forces were joined by some unlikely reinforcements â€" a British SS unit.
        
The pro-Nazi soldiers were under the command of Harrow-educated John Amery, whose father served in Churchill’s war cabinet.Amery was an anti-Semite renowned for making speeches welcoming the German invaders in France. He then offered his services to Nazi propaganda minister Goebbels, and began working with notorious broadcaster Lord Haw Haw.

Another famous Englishman who fought for Hitler was John Brown. He later recorded the support for Hitler in England was much greater than the British care to recall.Thousands of Englishmen awaited the German invaders with a hearty welcome.

Then of course there was Oswald Mosley British Politician and Philosopher 1896-1980. He welcomed the advance of the German forces across Europe towards Britain.

Clearly a chapter of history the British care to forget !

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03 Jul 06 - 05:58 AM (#1774566)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

Not really.
I never heard of John Brown.
Amery was hanged for treason.
Lord Haw haw was actually an Irishman I think. He hanged at Neuremberg.

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03 Jul 06 - 06:27 AM (#1774577)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Paddy

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03 Jul 06 - 06:29 AM (#1774578)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Paddy

Sorry, I hit the wrong button. Lord haw Haw was still technically British at the time of the war. Another traitor, Terry Wogan, was made a knight because he was also born before Ireland finaly ceceeded from Britain.

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03 Jul 06 - 07:13 AM (#1774595)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey

There was a lot for support for Hitler in Britain.
Besides the numerous British born agents. There were the likes of Quartermaster Sergeant John Henry Owen Brown of the Royal Artillery.

Brown had been a member of the British Union of Fascists (BUF) before the war, but was also a devout Christian. Captured on the beaches of Dunkirk in May 1940. A British NCO who became leader of Special Detachment 517.

Then there was Thomas Cooper, another British soldier joined the Waffen-SS. He was posted to the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (LAH), where he eventually was transferred to the infamous SS "Totenkopf" infantry training battalion, and became a machine-gun instructor with the 5th Totenkopf Regiment and was made an NCO. Following the German invasion of the Soviet Union, he was assigned to the Wachbattaillon Oranienburg outside Krakow in Poland, he boasted about what he did to Jewish prisoners! Other British soldiers that fought for Hitler with distinction were Richard Berry and Roy Courlander. They both stated there was huge support for Hitler in England. And lets not forget Bernie Patterson and Killer Jordan who pin pointed 47 factories making aircraft parts, all bombs within eight days.

Then there was Sir Anthony Blunt who many think was a German spy during World War Two.

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03 Jul 06 - 07:26 AM (#1774600)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

No one thinks that Blunt spied for Germany.
So how many traitors does that make?

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03 Jul 06 - 07:47 AM (#1774611)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey

Blunt enlisted in the British army in 1939, and served as an officer in France until it was invaded by Germany. Back in Britain he moved to the Security Service MI5. He sometimes sat on the Joint Intelligence Committee, had access to reports from the Secret Intelligence Service as well as MI5, and was on the distribution list for Ultra sensitive material. This material was passed onto Lewis Litchfield a close friend of Blunt who worked for the Germans in France.

Blunt later admitted that he had passed the material to the KGB he refused to answer the question that he had worked for the Germans during world War Two. His refusal to answer held him in contempt.

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03 Jul 06 - 07:47 AM (#1774612)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

The British Free Corps SS had about 39 men in it for the 15 months it existed. Hardly a huge number of supporters was it?

Yours, Aye. Dave

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03 Jul 06 - 07:53 AM (#1774615)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

Blunt was motivated by Communism. He would hardly want to help the Nazis.

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03 Jul 06 - 08:28 AM (#1774637)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Sorry, I just checked and I was wrong. At no time was there more than 27 active members (aka less than a standard German infantry platoon) and only 59 were ever noted to have been associated with it throught the war; most were blackmailed or coerced into joining it, and one of those was mentally disturbed. (much to my disgust two them were Merchant Navy)

Yours, Aye. Dave

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03 Jul 06 - 08:31 AM (#1774642)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: alanabit

"There was a lot of support for Hitler in Britain." I would like to hear your definition of "a lot", Ronald. In the history books I read, Britain was the one European nation, which held out against Hitler in 1940, when the rest of Europe had either been defeated or cowed into reticence. As thousands of defenceless Britons sailed pleasure craft in and out of Dunkirk to rescue the BEF, under bomb and bullet attack, I don't think we can look there for "a lot of support for Hitler".
Joseph Kennedy advised his government that Britain was finished and the Irish Republic declined to pick a quarrel with Herr Hitler.
Sir Oswald Mosley was indeed a Fascist and a brute. It is less clear whether he was a traitor. He often protested loudly that he would have fought the Germans himself had they landed in the UK.
Using the preposterous William Joyce as a stick with which to beat the British really has to be laughed off. His nationality was something of a grey area, as you will discover if you bother to read the link I have provided.
Yes, Britain had a few traitors in the Second World War. The other side of the coin is that Britons lost thousands of homes, limbs and lives to resist evil when some other countries did nothing. That is what I call "a lot".

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03 Jul 06 - 08:38 AM (#1774648)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: alanabit

I should have added to Keith A's remark that Blunt was a Communist. Those who can be bothered to read their history a little less selectively have discovered that his "treason" was to pass secrets to the Russians, which was expressly intended to help them defeat Fascism. At the Battle of Kursk, which effectively finished the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union, the Russians knew the German order of battle. That intelligence came from British spies. This probably was in defiance of their government, so technically it was treason. In any event, the attempt to hold up Blunt as a Hitler supporter is ridiculous.

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03 Jul 06 - 08:39 AM (#1774651)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

Blackmailed and mentally ill ! A decent British excuse.

Veteran intelligence expert Phil Lynch said: "Hundreds of British spies and agents inflicted untold damage on Britain. Many hundreds never faced justice.

"They have the blood of hundreds, if not thousands, on their hands."

Hard to believe that all of these agents were mentally ill too !

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03 Jul 06 - 08:44 AM (#1774658)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe

So let's have the songs then!

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03 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM (#1774662)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

Thier coming to take me away haha, their coming to take me away hoho to make me a British agent as they are all nuts hoho.

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03 Jul 06 - 08:56 AM (#1774668)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Guest 0839am learn to read and research your facts.
Lieutenant William Shearer, who joined the BFC, and was their first, and only British officer to accept a position in the unit.   Shearer was a schizophrenic and wouldn't put on his BFC uniform or even leave his room, to which end he was removed and sent to the mental asylum from whence he came.

Yours, Aye. Dave

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03 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM (#1774669)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Paul Burke

Google doesn't turn up any Phil Lynch "intelligence expert" in the first few pages. I suspect GUEST 08:39 has swallowed a novel by a paranoid conspiracy nutcase here.

The British were not story- book heroes in WWII, and there was a touch of my enemies enemy among the extreme Scots and Welsh nationalist fringes, there were unreconstructed pre- war fascists around, and there was a bit of (with hindsight) scarcely forgiveable starry-eyed idealism among pacifists, but the country as a whole was pretty solid. We were, after all, fighting the Germans (again).

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03 Jul 06 - 09:12 AM (#1774684)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: alanabit

Guest 03 Jul 06 - 08:39 AM, I think it is time for you to go away and read a few more books. If you must come back, please do what those, who have responded to you have done, and put a name to your posts.

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03 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM (#1774696)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Lots of British spies like this one Guest?

EDDIE CHAPMAN

A deserter from the Coldstream Guards in the 1930s he then turned to crime. A safecracker by profession and serving fourteen years in jail on Jersey in the Channel Islands, at that time under German occupation, he volunteered to spy for the Germans in England. He was trained at the Abwehr sabotage school at Nantes in France and then was parachuted into England on December 20, 1942, with a mission to blow up the De Havilland aircraft factory at Hatfield, in Hertfordshire, which was producing the new fighter-bomber, the Mosquito.

After landing, he contacted British Intelligence who contrived a plan to blow up part of the factory not in use, giving the Germans the impression that the mission had succeeded. On returning to Jersey for more work, Eddie Chapman (Code Name 'ZigZag') was decorated with the German Iron Cross. After the war, Chapman was also given a British decoration, the only Englishman thus awarded! Later he set up a health farm and died aged 83 in 1997 leaving a wife and daughter.

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03 Jul 06 - 09:30 AM (#1774699)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Interesting stuff, Ronald. The ironical thing is...had the Germans won, all those guys you mention would be recorded in the history books as heroes, men of vision, freedom-fighters, courageous free thinkers of their time who had the good sense to oppose the "corrupt and archaic Churchillian forces" that were holding Great Britain and western Europe back in the "dark ages" and standing in the way of social enlightenment and liberation, etc...blah, blah, blah!

Just like what we have in our history books now, in other words, only the opposite way around.

Heh!

Self-serving propaganda knows no borders. And when you're young and full of fire to join in a "glorious" war effort....just hope to God that your side wins! It can be very nasty when they don't.

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03 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM (#1774714)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Paul Burke

Very postmodern LH. Except that some of us believe that there were principles involved, that imperfect as our world is, it's a damn sight better than anything the Fascists, Nazis, Falangists etc. had on offer.

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03 Jul 06 - 10:27 AM (#1774739)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe

There were many Germans, Italians, Japanese, and many others, willing to fight for their 'new' countries with the Allies, against their old 'homeland', and treated with great suspicion because of it... the same was the case with Negroes, or African Americans, as they are called these days.

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03 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM (#1774747)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Ebbie

Nations are made up of individuals (duh so no one would expect *everyone* to be in lockstep. Ronald Healey is a troll- and not even a very good one.

(With a name like that, he may have recently discovered his grandfather and his granduncles were on the wrong side of the conflict...)

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03 Jul 06 - 11:02 AM (#1774755)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey

Family from Reading in Berks, Ebbie.

Nations are made up of individuals (duh so no one would expect *everyone* to be in lockstep. Silly statement.

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03 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM (#1774786)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Ebbie

Not a troll?

In Alaska, trolling is done by putting in your line and seeing if anything bites.

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03 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM (#1774790)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: SharonA

Never heard of Lord Haw Haw. With a name like that, I just had to look it up! Seems he was a kind of European "Tokyo Rose". It also seems that the character was played by several different people, not just William Joyce. Anybody know if they were all caught and prosecuted?

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03 Jul 06 - 11:40 AM (#1774791)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,X the Unknown

Of course there were even more people from the "German side" working for us, most notably (though indirectly) the July 20 plotters, including FM Erwin Rommel. Nazi spymaster ADM Canaris seems to have actually become an American agent during the war.

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03 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM (#1774805)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Well Guest Ronald Healey, you have a lot of reading to do mate. I do not know how old you are, or how old your parents are, I suspect not alive during the war. There were very few ordinary people who supported Hitler in England after 1939. Prior to 1939 a few wealthy people in England openly admired Hitler for his perceived leadership role in stabilizing Germany; and preventing it from turning to communism. This even included some members of our Royal Family. In 1939 that changed, and the vast majority of the British went to war determined to smash the Nazis. Many Germans were not avid supporters of the Nazis either, but you could get shot and beaten up if you opposed them, so they complied.

I sailed with a stateless person who was a university educated Estonian man who spoke Polish, German and French. Training as an engineer he studied in Germany, Poland and learned some French at school. He had no passport because when Germany invaded Estonia in 1942, an SS officer held a Luger pistol to his head and asked him if he was going to join the Estonian Foreign SS Partizanjaeger (resistance hunter unit) Of course a NO answer would mean a bullet in the brain so he responded Ja...yes absolutely I volunteer.... His job was to assist in the interrogation of prisoners as an interpreter. (he did not hurt anyone) Because of this he was a wanted war criminal in his own hometown(despite escaping from the SS after six months and eventually making it to the UK) The only id document he was allowed was a British Merchant Seamans Discharge Book, and he could only work as an unlicensed crewman in the engine room of ships that were never likely to go to a Soviet Union port of call (instant arrest and execution if he landed there, tried and convicted of war crimes in absentia) Not everyone was a willing member of the Waffen SS, 60% of the foreigners were conscripts, who were given the choice to face Allied bullets or German bullets.

Yours, Aye. Dave

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03 Jul 06 - 12:25 PM (#1774825)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,sorefingers

What a silly debate! Every history book I read says that wars are about gain. Germany wanted to do to Europe what England had done to Britain, colonize it - at any cost - and make the natives speak THEIR language.

The same thing as happened in Australia, America and countless otber nations down through time. Invasion, assimilation or eradication.

Please don't try to make this some kind of diabolical scheme to do something else when as well as Jews the Nazis also exterminated 6 million of the poorest of the poor in Europe.

They were after all doing in Europe what had been done to Armenians in Turkey, and before that what had been done to the Cherokee Nation in Georgia/Carolinas/ Tenn etc by the USA. Marched to death, shot dead over trenches, starved to death, and used for various preverted experiments.

Nobody today can claim to be guiltless in this regard.

Oh and yall Blighters never ever forget what your Cromwell did in Drogheda Ireland - even to his own kind!- every man, woman and LITTLE CHILD slughtered! with no mercy and hatred that no animal in the butchers barn ever had to endure!

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03 Jul 06 - 12:28 PM (#1774828)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey

I hate the very word Nazism. To say there was little or no support for Hitler in Britain is wrong. No Fifth Column activities either I imagine. Dave both my father and father in law served in the Navy during the war.

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03 Jul 06 - 01:13 PM (#1774851)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Ronald you (and they) should know better then; I think you need help to understand that the activity of a few, did not mean there were thousands who supported Hitler in England. There were very few succesfull saboteurs and fifth columnists in the UK during the war.
We caught most spies and either turned them into double agents, or eliminated them very quickly with few exceptions. One of the biggest problems we had was the Communist agitators in our trade unions who caused no end of trouble to the war effort; but the hearts of the working people were not always fooled by them; and we all know what happened to Herr Hitler.

For the most part, we had a lot of people from other nations (Holland, Poland, France, Belgium and Norway in particular) who worked very closely with our secret service to make sure we were succesfull. Ask your relatives about the Polish submarines Sokol,Wilk, Orzel, Dzik, The Dutch submarines O-16 O-19 O-21. If they dont know, then get reading.

My father was in the Navy on HMS Penelope and HMS Montclair. Trained as a SBA and CPO Diver/Articifer. He served in Europe, the Meditereanean, Australia and was in Hong Kong for the surrender of the Japanese. My mother was a Wren in Porstmouth and one of her sisters a WAC(involved in top secret signals) Two of my uncles served in the RN, one in the Army, and my Grand Uncle was a distinguished naval officer both at sea and ashore in both world wars. My grandfather served in the army during WW1, and police force in WW2. Another relative by marriage worked for British Security Coordination; that is William Stephenson (aka Intrepid) Some of the people I worked with as a young man were quite senior officers in the Royal Navy; who became Merchant Ship captains after the war. They all told a very different story to the one you are spinning mate.

Yours, Aye. Dave

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03 Jul 06 - 01:56 PM (#1774879)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Les from Hull

Yes very interesting, but not actually true, though. 3000 defenders of Drogheda were massacred after the town refused to surrender. It was true that Cromwell lost control of his men, but the same thing happened whenever an army was forced to assault a fortified place after a 'practicable breach' was made (cf storming of Magdeburg 1631). This part of Cromwell's career can be related to the European Wars of Religion. A great many lies were told by both sides.

So few British actually enlisted in what was to be the British Battalion of the SS that it never formed. The SS did recruit from other European countries in much greater strength after these countries had been occupied details here
It certainly makes me wonder why someone would start a thread like this claiming a 'British SS unit' when the facts are that there were 20 British and 10 Commonwealth prisoners of war in this so-called unit, and they never say any action!

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03 Jul 06 - 04:38 PM (#1775014)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: robomatic

sorefingers:

To indicate they were all the same and broadbrush everyone as you do shows a lack of comprehension which is either brain damage or much more likely, trollery on your part.

It is true that genocide is a common part of our communal history. What is also true is that Nazi Germany brought it to a new level by instituting not on an outside enemy, but on their own citizens and captive civilian population, and industrializing it, and the world (or most of it) recognized this as a new level of evil which is why the Nuremburg Trials.

It is not racially unique among Europeans or Germans to commit these sorts of crimes, and they occur between and within populations, viz. the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and the Rwandan inter-tribal genocide.

To broadbrush it purely to get an effect is perhaps what you intended, but in muddying the waters I believe you are displaying the coalescing of a lot of gray matter between your ears.

As to the thread topic, the actions of the British Empire and her leaders speak to the quite minor level of pro-fascist activity once the war had begun, and there was quite a lot of pre-war anti-nazi activity on her part. The existence of Lindbergh and his America-first cohorts, and the despicable Henry Ford speak to the fact that Nazism was a would-be global movement which took global involvement to defeat.

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03 Jul 06 - 04:57 PM (#1775025)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

So why did you start this thread with your first ever post Ronald?
In reply to Shambles' Fighting Irish thread? (That followed the commemoration of 90th aniversary of the Somme)
Are you not the latest in the string of anti British Guests, who each have their own silly guest name, but all of whose posts are utterly interchangeable.
Know any Mudcatters from Reading area? Been to any gigs?

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03 Jul 06 - 07:40 PM (#1775135)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe

Marty sent all his friends here, Keith...

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03 Jul 06 - 07:57 PM (#1775144)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

Did your father serve on the HMS Bellona, "Ronald"?

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03 Jul 06 - 08:18 PM (#1775152)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,sorefingers

robomatic, what I believe is that every Power since the beginning of time has, and will continue to eraze other nations for gain.

It isn't for the people who live in the doomed nation that such things are done, no Sir, it's for the land, it's for the property, it's for the profit of war.

Perhaps your circuitry is burned out?

Nazis or Ulster Planters, same goal, slaugther the native population and take their property. Scottish Settler or Turkish barbarian, same goal slaughter the native population and take their property.

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03 Jul 06 - 08:20 PM (#1775153)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Sitting Bull

Tell me about it.

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03 Jul 06 - 09:28 PM (#1775175)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: frogprince

Goll, Ronald; I never knew about all those British Nazis. Here I was not realizing that I should hate everything British, including the Brits who frequent this forum. I truly appreciate how you have enlightened me, and how this knowledge will improve the entire quality of my life, and enable me to better live as an effective citizen of the world.



You can go slither back under the rock now.

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03 Jul 06 - 10:25 PM (#1775200)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

Then there was Prescott Bush in the US who was helping out his business friend, Fritz Thyssen. But hey, who cares, right? It was about money and so that made it respectable.

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03 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM (#1775214)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Paul Burke - I am only TOO well aware that there were an enormous number of VERY good reasons to fight against the Nazis, the Italian fascists, and the Japanese expansionist militarists in WWII!

And I unhestitatingly support the more democratic ideals of many of those who fought against them...as I also support the self-defensive efforts of Russians who rightly fought to free their invaded country. The Russians were unfortunate to be living under a horrible tyrant, but their fight against the Germans was entirely justified.

Nevertheless, I was making some philosophical points in my initial post:

1. that good people, well intentioned people, people of splendid character end up serving all sides in any war...but only the ones on the winning side get to be called "heroes" when the war ends.

2. that rebellious or unconventional types sometimes resist the general trend in their own nation and even act directly against it, and end up working for "the other side" as spies, agents, saboteurs, etc...and sometimes they do it because they are wholly convinced that the other side is morally superior to those running the homefront...BUT, once again...only the ones on the winning side get to be called "heroes" after the war. The ones that lose get executed.

3. that bad people, sadistic creeps, and psychopathic murderers end up enthusiastically serving for ALL sides in any war...but once again, only the ones on the winning side get to be called "heroes" after the war, get medals pinned on their chests, and get to judge and condemn some other people who are quite possibly no worse than them...or maybe much better than them...but had the bad fortune to be on the losing side.

4. And that's the sad truth about war!

What I said in my original post was intended as a philosophical statement about human nature throughout all history. It was NOT an attempt to make any excuses for WWII Naziism and Fascism.

Clear?

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04 Jul 06 - 12:55 AM (#1775290)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: LadyJean

There was, of course, Unity Mitford and her family, who referred to Hitler as "Hittles". That's almost funny. Poor Unity shot herself when England declared war on Germany. But she survived for a couple of years.

P.G. Wodehouse was living in France when the Germans invaded. He was interned as an enemy alien. So, he did what any writer would do, he began a chronicle of his experiences as an internee. I've read some of his pieces. They are classic examples of Wodehouse's low key humor. The Germans don't come off looking very well in them. He has a lovely description of the very fat camp commandant climbing a hill.
Wodehouse was asked if he wanted to broadcast his essays.
The United States hadn't joined the war yet. Wodehouse had lived in the U.S. He had a number of friends over here, and he decided that this would be a good way to communicate with them. So, he told the world about the fat camp commandant, and other entertaining items. (If Nazis had any brains, they wouldn't be Nazis.)
Wodehouse was denounced as a traitor, by his fellow Britons. You will still read that he was a quisling who made propaganda broadcasts.
Like all internees, he was released when he turned 60. (His roommate at the camp, a piano tuner, was released at the same time, because he was also 60. Though, as Wodehouse pointed out, he had tuned no German pianos.) Like most people from his generation, he had friends in Germany, and he spent the rest of the war with them.
Afterwards he left England for the U.S. and remained here until he died. 30 years after Hitler fell, Wodehouse was knighted. He was past 90 then, and too old to attend the ceremony.
The true irony of this is that Wodehouse had satirized the British Facists. The moronic Bertie Wooster falls afoul of the head of the Black Shorts. Jeeves saves him by telling him that the Facist owns a lingerie store. Find the story. It's a howl!

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04 Jul 06 - 03:18 AM (#1775321)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

So Ronald, after 24hours of this thread we find that not one single Briton did actually fight for Hitler.

Like all your recent posts, under all your recent names, about the British Army, British Police, England football fans, British bigots, British racists and (my favorite) British ageists, the vey premise of this thread is a lie.
You are a sad, obsessed man.

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04 Jul 06 - 11:27 AM (#1775672)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,sorefingers

Keith, it doesn't matter whether a Brit was a nazi, we all know that loads of them were.

Lots fought for Hitler simply by doing their thing, the Orange Order of N Ireland was racist to its core then and supported Herr Hitler, the same applies to the luny right in Liverpool, Glasgow and many other cities in the UK. These same cities today host an ever growing anti Jewish, anti Black and anti everything that isn't the same as themselves. Orange men in Canada with roots in these cities were PRO Hitler!

In the USA the KKK reveled ( it still does ) in the disgusting excesses of the Nazis as they ghetto-ised the Jews of Poland and everywhere else. The KKK preached - No Niggas, No Pape-ies and No Jewies - they still do!


In that company the IRA would barely deserves a mention.

In fact, when it comes to who wouldv'e welcomed the Nazis, the Anglonazies far outstrip their Celtic neighbors in accomodation and the art of perfidity. In Ireland and Scotland the Germans would have had to deal with guerilla war, in England it would have had to deal with too much tea and cricket.

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04 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM (#1775700)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

No, you are quite wrong.
When Britain stood alone in 1940, it was with no illusion about a quick victory and the boys being home by Christmas.
There was an acceptance that invasion was inevitable and defeat probable.
Few war leaders have said to their people, I can promise you nothing but blood, toil, tears, and sweat.
Churchill admitted that they would have to fight on their own beaches, fields, streets and hills. He could not promise victory, only that surrender would not be considered.
Preparations were made to fight on after defeat and occupation.
It is an insult to my parents' generation to spout crap like that.

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04 Jul 06 - 11:50 AM (#1775708)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Well, the SS raised whole formations of men from all of the various occupied countries...to fight for the Reich in its elite Nazi battalions. I'm sure they would have raised similar formations from the British population, had they succeeded in occupying the UK.

Remember: nothing succeeds like success. A lot of people just naturally like a winner...and the Germans appeared to be winning for quite some time there.

Lady Jean - I must take exception to your one statement: "(If Nazis had any brains, they wouldn't be Nazis.)"

Ha! Having brains is NO prerequisite to having scruples...or good judgement about which political cause to back...specially when it happens on homeground and appears to be in the ascendency. To the contrary, there were many very intelligent, highly capable, and downright brilliant people on the Nazi side in WWII...as there were on the other side as well...as there were in Japan and Soviet Russia and every other combatant nation.

It is a common human conceit to imagine that all one's political opponents must be by definition stupid. Not so! The Left often makes that facile mistake when sizing up everyone on the extreme right, and vice versa too.

There are always some very bright people involved in every great or ignoble cause.

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04 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM (#1775718)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

You're correct, Keith. The British fought in 1940 because they had no choice but to fight...and hope for the best. The odds against them at the time did not look good at all...and had the Germans handled the Battle of Britain a little better and kept bombing the fighter airfields, then the UK would probably have fallen to a German invasion.

There is a possibility that the British could have negotiated with Hitler...Hitler certainly hoped and expected they would, and this delayed his attack on England and greatly hampered its effectiveness when it came.

Churchill, however, had no intention of making any such arrangement...nor, I think, did the British population in general.

Hitler grossly misread the British character, probably because Hitler was under the impression that he was a "good guy" and that other people would see that he had all the answers to make life wonderful if they just thought about it a little... ;-)

Every political leader thinks his own ideas are just exactly what the world needs, after all! He probably could not fathom why the British didn't want to stop fighting Germany, join up with the Germans, and go knock out the Communists in Russia.

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04 Jul 06 - 12:28 PM (#1775751)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

All our yesterdays !

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04 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM (#1775813)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Bob

sorefingers posts:Lots fought for Hitler simply by doing their thing, the Orange Order of N Ireland was racist to its core then and supported Herr Hitler

Load of bollocks mate. If this were true, explain to me then why my grandfather, a lifelong Orangeman, along with loads of other men in his unit fought against the nazi scum? Ive photos of him and his unit wearing their sashes and uniforms of the British army during the second world war. Your lies do a terrible dishonour to these men and all who fought against the nazis. You should be ashamed!

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04 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM (#1775875)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,ancient Briton

Guest Ronald Heley is clearly a citizen of one of those nations which primarily defines itself by comparison to the UK or perhaps to England.

As a resident of England, Ronald, I don't give a tuppeny damn if a few brits signed up for Hitler. I've no doubt some of your own countrymen informed for the Brits or spied for the redskins or the equivalent.

England's never been sold to me as being anything other than what most grown-ups know it to be and to have been. In truth I don't care for it that much, but I don't see any nobler or more saintly places to live.

Get a life and post a thread about something interesting.

AB

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04 Jul 06 - 02:56 PM (#1775887)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

Guest Bob,were any of those in the photos under age !

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05 Jul 06 - 10:00 AM (#1776619)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Just a side note:   After the war the invasion of England (Operation Sealion) was played out as a war game by senior military members of both sides. The Germans (Adolf Galland Luftwaffe fighter ace, was one of the Germans who participated) they all admitted that the invasion would not have succeeded with the type of troop barges and boat transport they planned to use to transport across the channel. After an initial victory on the beaches their supplies would have never been landed in enough quantity to support a main force for more than two or three weeks; even if they captured the ports of Dover, Folkestone or Shoreham they would not have been in usable condition to large shipping for months. The German Airforce could not supply enough heavy equipment and munitions to support the airborn landings, and the whole thing would have failed before reaching London. There is a book on the subject it makes interesting reading.

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05 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM (#1776814)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,ancient Briton

just one thing, LtHawk - there was no guarantee that Stalin would not have pushed westwards whilst Adolf's lads (no doubt helped by half a dozen brits) were doing the business in the Med. The Nazi-Commie war was inevitable.

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05 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM (#1776815)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

HMS Penelope was in Malta, they would have had a tough time there too. The Maltese were good shots, and my dad was a tough old bastard mate ;-)

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05 Jul 06 - 02:17 PM (#1776844)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Malta wouldn't have been easy, but I'm pretty sure they could have taken it in early '41 with a full effort. It's very close to Italy, and the Italian navy's major base at Taranto. To stage a heavy invasion attack with strong air support would have been very feasible for the Germans and Italians. For the British to defend adequately would have been very difficult.

Anceint Briton - I agree that the Russo-German conflict was inevitable...in time. As inevitable as the Cold War that came after '45. However, it was not inevitable in '41-42. Far from it. Stalin did everything possible to avoid war with the Germans. He desperately wanted to avoid such a war. He happily supplied them with everything they wanted in trade, and worked hard to avoid provoking them.

Therefore, I higly doubt that the Russians would have pushed west while the Germans were occupied in the Med. 1941 would have been the crucial year...and the Germans would only have needed about one third of their available forces to take the Med...in my opinion. Another third could have been used to tie down the British in western Europe (by still threatening an invasion of the UK). The remaining third could definitely have secured the Reich's eastern borders against an attack by the Russian army which was at that point inefficient, mostly inexperienced, and poorly commanded (all of which was amply demonstrated in the initial German attacks on Russia in June-November '41). The Russians would have been clobbered had they tried to attack the Reich in '41, and I think the chances of Stalin wanting to risk it at all would have been virtually nil. Stalin was a cautious man when it came to such adventures, and the Russian attack on tiny Finland not long before had been a bloody and embarrassing disaster where the Russians lost probably ten men for every Finn they killed. You think he would have risked attacking the whole German Reich after that? Not bloody likely.

As for Hitler, it was asinine to get into a 2-front war against 2 major powers, which is what Hitler did when he attacked Russia in '41. It was the most idiotic decision in the whole war, I'd say. The time to attack Russia was much later....AFTER the west and the Med had been secured, and the war with the UK brought to an end. The way to secure the west was to put the British in such a bad position that they would wish to negotiate their way out of it. The way to do that was: take the Med and hold it. This would have put the British under a tremendous strain, Churchill would probably have been voted out, and a new government would have bargained with the Germans and reached a settlement, agreeing on their respective spheres of influence...which was what Hitler had actually anticipated would happen after the fall of France in 1940.

Hitler had always seen the British as his natural ally against Communist Russia. He was no doubt bolstered considerably in that notion by the friendship of a few upperclass Britons such as Unity Mitford, and by the fact that every government in the west in the late 30's (with the exception of the shortlived Republican government in Spain) was extremely anti-communist anyway prior to the beginning of WWII. Churchill, for that matter, was extremely anti-communist...UNTIL he needed them! ;-) Such are the vagaries of Realpolitik. Churchill quickly returned to being extremely anti-communist as soon as the Nazis were defeated. I believe it was he who coined the term "Iron Curtain", shortly after the war in Europe had ended. I think he hated the Russians just as much as Hitler did.

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05 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM (#1776855)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

The British attack on Taranto was studied by the Japanese as a model for Pearl harbour. Swordfish biplanes were so slow, modern anti aircraft guns were not programmed to deal with 90 knot air speeds, so the Italians and Germans had a hard hitting them.

Yours, Aye. Dave

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05 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM (#1776868)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Les from Hull

Actually the kind of anti-aircratft guns that would be firng at the Swordfish would be light guns of 20mm to 40mm. They don't have predictors.

One of the reasons for the success of that mission was that the Italians didn't rig their anti-toredo nets.

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05 Jul 06 - 02:47 PM (#1776882)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, the Bismark had trouble targetting the Swordfish torpedo planes for the same reason. Too damn slow! Focke-Wulf fighter planes that were attacking these same Swordfish during the famed "Channel Dash" by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau actually lowered their flaps AND landing gear in flight to try to slow down enough to make accurate firing runs on the clunky British biplanes.

It's funny how using obsolete equipment can occasionally become an advantage of sorts in a war situation.

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05 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM (#1776953)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Les, The air defense of Taranto was mostly shore based, and they had predictors for each group of lighter AA guns. The lighter ones set to be directed in teams of four or six guns. Both the italians and Germans were experimenting with directed patterns to boxed area saturation.

Here are the actual statistics Antiaircraft defenses fully active and including: 21 batteries armed with 101 mm guns, 68 machine-gun installations for a total of 84 barrels both on fixed and floating positions 109 light machine-guns both in fixed and floating positions.

Antiaircraft obstructions consisting of 27 round balloons, 16 moored west and north of the ships on the Tarantola jetty. 11 moored along the eastern part of the same jetty.

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05 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM (#1776982)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

All six swordfish were shot down in the channel dash though, without scoring a hit. Only 5 of the 18 crew survived.
They all saw it as a suicide mission.

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05 Jul 06 - 04:29 PM (#1776996)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Indeed. It was a suicide mission to all intents and purposes. The Germans provided very thorough air cover for those ships, and the swordfish should never have been sent against them at all.

The Italians were rather unlucky at Taranto, and the British airmen were clearly very well trained and did their job superbly. It ended up causing no little grief to the Americans when the Japanese used it as their inspiration for the Pearl Harbour torpedo attack.

The Bismark was also unlucky...but then, so was the Hood!

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05 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM (#1777031)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,sorefingers

Herr Bob. Sieg Heil Siezer Bush, you really ought to get out more and read the news.

Not too many years since I read the Orange Order hired a Scottish Butcher to dismember a Catholic WOMAN they had executed by crusifying her on a wooden door.

The Nazis couldv'e taken lessons from such monstrous bastards!

Long live freedom, free speech and the free people of the world, which means you scum are fair game any day ...now.

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05 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM (#1777032)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford

They should not have been sent. And no one was prepared to order them to go to certain death. Esmonde was "asked" how he felt about going in.
Gleave, the Wing Commander, said that when he wished Esmonde luck,
"Although his mouth twitched automatically into the semblance of a grin and his arm lifted in a vague salute, he barely recognised me. He knew what he was going into. But it was his duty. His face was tense and white. It was the face of a man already dead. It shocked me as nothing has done since"

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05 Jul 06 - 05:16 PM (#1777053)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Les from Hull

Thanks for the detail about Taranto Dave. I've really only heard it from the British side, who reported inaccurate flak. For all the guns they didn't hit much!

On the Channel Dash attack the Swordfish were supposed to be escorted by Spitfires but they missed each other. The Swordfish decided to go it alone.

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05 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM (#1777074)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

A sad, sad story, about Esmond, Keith. These are the miserable things that happen to people in wartime.

Most of the German sailors on the Scharnhorst died miserably too, much later in the war, when their ship was surrounded, battered into a wreck, and sunk in the freezing Arctic waters at the Battle of the North Cape. Very few of them were rescued.

It's a rotten business all the way around.

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06 Jul 06 - 12:48 PM (#1777452)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus

Rather odd, if the Axis powers could not successfully invade across 21 miles of water in 1940, why is it thought they could have easily invaded an island with very few suitable landing places across 62.5 miles.

When Italy entered the war on 10th June 1940, Winston Churchill wrote to Lt. General Sir William Dobbie, Officer Administering the Government:

" You may be sure we regard Malta as one of the master keys of the British Empire. We are sure that you are the man to hold it and we will do everyhting in human power to give you that means."

This was done at horrendous cost in terms of ships, aircraft and men - but it was done successfully enough to convince the Axis powers that Malta would cost too much to take.

With the Afika Korps on the border of Egypt, Erwin Rommel was well aware of the importance of Malta and the threat posed by it remaining in Allied hands. Hitler did order the invasion and capture of the Island on the 30th April 1942 during a meeting at the Obersalzberg with Mussolini. The priorities were given as follows, "Tobruk in June, Malta in July". Hitler really should have put them the other way about because it left Malta a threat to Rommel's supply lines and gave the defenders of the island enough of a breathing space to re-equip and go over onto the offensive. Thereafter the fate of the Africa Korps was sealed.

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06 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM (#1777476)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

You're quite right, Teribus, Hitler should have put those priorities the other way around. He should also have gotten the idea to invade Malta a whole lot sooner than he did. Time is always of the essence in such matters.

The Germans did succeed in taking the island of Crete...a similar proposition to taking Malta...and across a similar stretch of water...but it was a much bigger island than Malta. It cost their paratroopers dearly, but they took it. I believe they could also have taken Malta, with a combination of paratroops and seaborne assault, but specially the seaborne assault. They just had to do it soon enough, and with sufficient resolve, that's all.

It was foolish (or at least impractical) of them to attempt to successfully conclude a North African campaign without taking Malta...although...Rommel came close to pulling it off, even as it was.

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06 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM (#1777594)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: robomatic

While we're on the subject of who died for what and who supported what, I read in an earlier thread in this forum that de Valera, PM for Ireland during WWII, sent condolences to the German Government over the death of Hitler.

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06 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM (#1777632)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Divis Sweeney

That is correct robomatic he did. He also gave Churchill permission to fly the Sunderland bombers based on Lough Erne in County Fermanagh to fly across County Donegal in the Irish Republic to attack the u boats in the Atlantic. If he had not been given permission the Sunderlands would have had to fly north and then left which would not have allowed them to be in the air long enough to search. When Hilter bombed Belfast twice in the early years of the war, it was Dev that rang the then P.M. in the north, Mr. J.M. Andrews and offered fire engines, they arrived all through the night from the Republic. Much has been said about Churchill offering Dev the north in 1939 if he came on board in the fight against Hilter. I am sure there must be something about it on the net, hearsay on my behalf.So it's funny the points people care to remember.

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06 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM (#1777653)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

In April 1995 Taoiseach John Bruton spoke at Islandbridge and paid tribute to the 150,000 Irish people North and South who "volunteered to fight against Nazi tyranny in Europe, at least 10,000 of whom were killed while serving in British uniforms…In recalling their bravery, we are recalling a shared experience of Irish and British people…We remember a British part of the inheritance of all who live in Ireland."


Bruton's speech was interesting because of its implication that there is more to the issue of the volunteers than simply assimilating their role as an aspect of neutral Ireland's contribution to the allied cause. His words were uttered in the context of the unfolding peace process in Ulster, and in front of representatives from Northern and Southern Irish political parties. His allusion to a shared Irish and British experience and to the British inheritance were an obvious gesture in the direction of a concept of Irish identity or identities incorporating a plurality of loyalties, experiences and traditions.


From being a marginal and excluded group in Irish society in the 1940s the Irish volunteers of World War II had by the 1990s come to represent historically and symbolically an aspect of a refashioned and broader concept of Irish identity. There is a certain poetic justice in all this since the most frequently reported volunteer experience of loyal service in the British armed forces was that it made them feel more Irish and more patriotic. Notwithstanding this strengthening of their Irish identity most volunteers did not feel very welcome when they returned to postwar Ireland, nor for many more years to come.

I believe these statistics do not include the many thousands of Irish nationals who served as non military Merchant Seamen on allied ships, and are not included in the role of honour. Lest We Forget.

Yours, Aye. Dave

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06 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM (#1777668)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Divis Sweeney

The 26th Battalion of the IRA were called up and armed in 1939 to guard the streets of Dublin. They were men who fought in the rising of 1916. If you search the new you will find them. I have a medal to them. At this time Dev was also jailing the IRA ! Hitler also bombed Dublin.
Last year in Donegal Sinn Fein were involved in the unvailing of the memorial to the Irish 10th Division who fought in WW1.

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06 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM (#1777681)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,sorefingers

Dave, isn't your post a quote?

Ir reads very like something the Irish Times would publish.

Anyway not drifting too far away from the point of the thread, and mentioning the ROI - where BTW you could NOT be conscripted to serve in HM forces against the Axis - I recall mention in the 1950's of gentlemen from the North who had absconded to the Republic for the duration of the ...err hostilities, and of note were those in the majority, Orangemen, who preferred the Church Of Ireland's hospitality as opposed to the rough reception offered by the Civil Defence. Now that is a story well worth the telling, ...these days.

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06 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM (#1777696)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

The Challenge Of The Irish Volunteers of World War II

Geoffrey Roberts

Sorry i was in a hurry and forgot to edit the post...

Yours, Aye. Dave

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06 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM (#1777717)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Divis Sweeney

The Orange Order cancelled all of their public events from 1941 to 1945 including the 12th July demo's. They said it was because the did not want to bring so many onto the streets in case the bombers came over !

Could have had something to do with the fact many asked questions why so many of them had not joined up as they paraded in their thousands in 1940 !

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06 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM (#1777743)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

my grandad was approached by germans in the war in south africa where he was stationed to ask him to cross over. He was a member of the BUF, so it just shows what intelligance was around at that time by the germans. He of course refused and was eventually killed in the war fighting the germans.

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07 Jul 06 - 02:50 AM (#1777948)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus

True enough LH the Germans did take the island of Crete, primarily by Airborne Forces, they were very lucky, the Allied Command remained convinced that this attack was a feint and did not counter it effectively enough. Axis had air superiority, with the Royal Navy managing to retain control of the waters around Crete for sufficient time to effect the evacuation, at great cost to the fleet. With regard to Malta, Axis naval power was never strong enough, nor determined enough, to carry out the operations required to take the island.

On Crete, German losses were such that, on Hitlers orders, operations of this type were never to be repeated or proposed again. On losses, when Admiral Andrew Cunningham was receiving the loss reports from his Fleet and for pleas to withdraw his ships from the evacuation of the allied troops from Crete, he sent the following signal:

"It takes the Navy three years to build a new ship. It will take three hundred to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue."

Like Nelson, Cunningham was well known for sending signals. The signal that Cunningham was most well known for was his signal to the Admiralty on the 8th of May 1943:

"Be pleased to inform their Lordships that the Italian Fleet lies at anchor under the guns of the Fortress of Malta."

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07 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM (#1777970)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,ancient Briton

Little Hawk:

My father served in the Royal Navy in WW2 on LSTs (the 3,00 tonne tank landing ships). He was present at all the major opposed landings in Africa, the Med and NW Europe, and at many smaller affairs that were never reported. He never talked about his experiences until late in life. The bits he told me suggest that seaborne landings are never ever a pushover and are far bloodier, more expensive and messier affairs than any of the news/propaganda, current or historical, would have us believe.

The first landings were completely chaotic and even by the end of the war with loads of experience, better support and a weakened enemy, there was a very high attrition rate in men and ships.

Dad served on a relatively modern (for its day) american-built ship with at least a token level of escort and air cover at the big landings, though usually not at the smaller ones. Although built in america the defensive armament was to Admiralty spec, consisting of an ancient 1914 Canadian Pacific 4" gun and about 4 small anti aircraft guns. They regularly got hammered on the beaches and on their way there and back. Forget the opposing artillery air forces and naval units, the passive beach defences (which could never be cleared effectively) probably did most damage. Beaching was very like the charge of the light brigade, going at full ahead toward hurdles of obstacles and mines, watching sister ships blow up alongside in the race to the beach, whilst the proper warships sat safely out to sea (as they must) bombarding farms and cattle and the occsional enemy. Dad (and the ship) were very lucky to survive the war.

With this in mind I can't believe that the Germans could have pulled off a successful seaborne invasion of Malta in 1941 with the levels of equipment, training and protection they then enjoyed.   

I never entirely believe what military historians tell us.

AB

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07 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM (#1778049)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Large Taws

The Curragh is a 5,000 acre open plain, 35 miles from Dublin, just east of Kildare town. During the Napoleonic wars in 1854 a military camp for training soldiers was established here. To this day, the Curragh is the headquarters of the Irish Army.

During World War two the Curragh military base was used as an internee prisoners camp. Between the summer of 1940 and the latter half of 1943 there were about forty RAF internees and about sixty members of the German Luftwaffe. The RAF men were British, Canadians, Poles, Free French and an American who had enlisted in the volunteer force attached to the RAF known as the Eagle Squadron. In the early 1940s there were also dozens of IRA men interned in the Curragh. So here we have Irish army soldiers guarding a very diverse group of prisoners - strange bedfellows indeed! They were all held in their own separate compounds.

With the sanctuary of Northern Ireland so close it was easier for the Allies to escape than the Germans. The latter forces made only one known escape bid which took place in February 1942. Nine of them managed to confuse the guards into letting them out when only eight of them had signed their parole form. One man made his way to Dublin and succeeded in boarding a ship bound for Portugal. Obviously German luck bore no comparison with the proverbial luck of the Irish, the ship made an unscheduled stop in Wales and the German was arrested and imprisoned. Surely a case of jumping from the frying pan into the fire!!

The prisoners were allowed to leave the camp each morning, on condition that they signed the form promising to return that evening!! This parole applied equally to RAF and Luftwaffe and IRA internees alike.

Nowhere else in World War Two did opposing sides find themselves "prisoners of war" together.

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07 Jul 06 - 09:49 AM (#1778200)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Well, guys, you may be quite right about Malta. We'll never know for sure, will we? I think that with a full effort the Germans and Italians could have established air superiority over Malta. Once that had been achieved, they could probably have managed the rest. But it's all just speculation at this point.

If I'd been commanding the German forces, I would have moved heaven and Earth to take Malta, and I would have started doing so in 1940, not in '41. And I would NOT have attacked Soviet Russia at all. I would have continued peacefully trading with the Soviets until the conflict in the West had been brought to an armistace between England and Germany...however long that took.

Hitler was emotionally committed to attacking Russia. That was his downfall, militarily speaking. His downfall politically speaking was his paranoid and hateful attitude toward just about everyone except "Aryans" (as he called them). Take a politically insane concept, wed it to a militarily very powerful and efficient nation, and you have an utter disaster on your hands.

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07 Jul 06 - 10:13 AM (#1778218)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Les from Hull

'Take a politically insane concept, wed it to a militarily very powerful and efficient nation, and you have an utter disaster on your hands.'

I wonder who we could apply that to today.

On the Malta thing, air superiority is only useful as a first step in gaining command of the sea, as proved by Admiral Cunningham in the Crete campaign.

(A small anecdote about Admiral Cunningham. After the war he was was Chairman of the Planning Committee on a Local Council (South West England), and the Clerk to the Council had the annoying habit of saying 'Yes Admiral', 'No Admiral' to Cunningham, who then said 'I don't use my service rank in civilian life, but if you must it's Admiral of the fucking Fleet!'

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07 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM (#1778250)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, Les! (grin) I wonder who......?

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07 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM (#1778320)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

He also spent time studying the Italian fleet and noted that they rarely spent any time exercising at night. He timed his attacks at early evening or before dawn and won victories over numerically superior forces. Fine man, Fine Naval Officer.

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08 Jul 06 - 02:56 AM (#1778753)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus

"If I'd been commanding the German forces, I would have moved heaven and Earth to take Malta, and I would have started doing so in 1940, not in '41. And I would NOT have attacked Soviet Russia at all. I would have continued peacefully trading with the Soviets until the conflict in the West had been brought to an armistace between England and Germany...however long that took."

Not an option, Little Hawk,in 1940 the German Army had far more important and immediately pressing things to concentrate on. The Axis at this time deemed the Mediterranean to be an Italian theatre of operations. The Germans did not put in an appearance there until after the Italians had been routed in North Africa and needed to be rescued in Greece, which takes you to the summer of 1941 as the earliest you could have acted, and even then you would not have had the naval strength to do anything. Mussolini's Navy was considered to have served its purpose purely by existing, "a Fleet in being", a presence that required a great deal in terms of ships and manpower to counter the threat it posed. While it existed it tied down allied resources that could have been used far more effectively elsewhere, the same was true of the capital ships of the German Fleet.

To anyone who had read "Mein Kampf" at the time, war between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia was inevitable. In 1936, Hitler was told that if he was going to attack Soviet Russia he had to do so BEFORE 1944 in order to have any chance of success. Hitler never believed that he would have to fight in the west, so firm was his belief in the power and attraction offered by the appeasement lobby. Staff's cover all contingencies, Hitler was told that if he had to fight in the West that had to done BY 1938 at the latest to have any chance of avoiding having to fight on two fronts.

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08 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM (#1778857)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: HuwG

Admiral Cunningham was also known for some of the most memorably terse signals in RN history. After the successful attack by Swordfish torpedo bombers on the Italian fleet at Taranto, the commander of the carrier group signalled:

"Operation Judgement executed"

A few hours later, after seeing air reconnaissance photographs of Taranto which showed three battleships sunk at their moorings, Cunningham signalled back:

"Manoevre well executed"

This latter signal was only a two-letter group in the standard signal book. In a war which was later to become too well known for verbose self-congratulatory speeches and messages, this was a classic.

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08 Jul 06 - 09:23 AM (#1778864)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

My favourite (although maybe not attributed to Cunningham) was.

" Requirements on arrival Malta, Admiral woman"

when questioned. "Insert washer between admiral and woman"

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08 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM (#1778875)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

You're again quite correct, Teribus, Hitler's war with Russia was absolutely inevitable, given Hitler's peculiar personal philosophy, and you are also correct regarding the Med being considered (by the Germans) to be an Italian theatre of war until their defeat in North Africa and Greece.

Hitler clearly was not expecting a conflict in the West to erupt when he attacked Poland...and the whole rest of his misadventures stemmed from that decision, since it triggered an unexpected (from his point of view) declaration of war by both the UK and France. Major screwup for the Germans! (and for the Poles, needless to say...well, and for the French too, as it turned out...)

I'm simply saying that if I had been commanding German forces following that turn of events, and following the fall of France, I would have indefinitely shelved all ideas of fighting Russia, and would have concentrated on fighting the UK effectively...and that would have involved really 3 major efforts:

1. continually threaten to invade the UK to tie up the majority of their forces in a defensive posture (this was done for a while, but not for too long)
2. relentlessly attack merchant shipping supplying the UK (this was most definitely done)
3. Go all out to take the entire Med, North Africa, and the Middle East and spare no resource to do it. If not involved in a war with Russia, I believe the Axis could quite readily have accomplished this in 1941-42.

And LEAVE the Russians alone!

I'm saying that that's what I would have done, if faced with a major war in the West. I'm not saying Hitler would have ever done it.

I agree that with Hitler in charge of Germany there was no way that that would ever happen, because he was determined to attack Russia some time before 1944, as you say, regardless of what else was going on. He was a man who could always blithely ignore reality when it didn't suit his personal obsesssions...

And that's why he got into that foolish war to begin with and ended up dead in a bunker in Berlin.

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08 Jul 06 - 10:07 AM (#1778895)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Corporal Hitler made the same mistake as Corporal Napoleon ;-)

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08 Jul 06 - 10:18 AM (#1778898)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST

Teribus, an armistice between England and Germany would have been impossible as England is not a nation state and has no powers to deal in this respect.

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08 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM (#1778969)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey

Any information on HMS Bellona would be welcomed guys.

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08 Jul 06 - 02:22 PM (#1778989)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Bellona Class Light (Anti-Aircraft) Cruisers
Displacement: 5,950 tons standard ; 7,200 tons full load
Dimensions: 485 pp, 512 oa x 50.5 x 15 feet
Propulsion: 4 shaft Parsons geared turbines, 4 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, 62,000 shp. = 32 knots
Range: 1,500 miles at 30 knots, 4,240 at 16 knots ; 1,100 tons fuel oil
Complement: 530
Armament: 4 dual 5.25-inch / 50 QF Mk 1 DP ; 3 quad 2 pdr ; 6 dual 20 mm AA ; 2 triple 21-inch TT.
Armour: 3 inch belt ; 1 inch deck (2 inch over magazines) ; 1 inch bulkheads
aka Dido Group 2
Modified Dido design with only 4 turrets but improved AA armament.
HMS Bellona (C63)
Built by Fairfield, Govan. Laid Down 30 November 1939. Launched 29 September 1942. Completed 29 October 1943. Loaned to the Royal New Zealand Navy 1946-1956. Returned to RN April 1956. In reserve 1956-1957. Broken up by Ward, Briton Ferry, 1959.
Bellona was a modified Dido class cruiser named after a Goddess of War. Her motto was 'Battle is our Business'.

She participated in Murmansk convoys and played a role in supporting the US landings at Omaha Beach. She also had a role in electronic warfare during D Day radio jamming I believe.

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08 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM (#1779055)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey

Thank you for taking the time to write this sir. I am very grateful.

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08 Jul 06 - 05:07 PM (#1779058)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

You are welcome Sir, I cut and pasted the technical data from a website. According to the site the BBC mentioned her on a program recently, but the details were no longer available. You can get pictures of her if a relative served on her and you are interested here is the data site url:http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/bellona_class.htm
Just scroll down and she is the first photograph you come to.

Yours, Aye. Dave

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08 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM (#1779114)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus

GUEST 08 Jul 06 - 10:18 AM

Your point is extremely well taken, but the point you make should be taken up with our Canadian cousin, Little Hawk, who stated that:

"I would NOT have attacked Soviet Russia at all. I would have continued peacefully trading with the Soviets until the conflict in the West had been brought to an armistace between England and Germany...however long that took."

As a Scot who regards himself as being British I have always been perfectly aware of the fact that since 1707 there has been NO England and NO Scotland in terms of international politics or history, I believe that Little Hawk actually acknowledges the same distinction.

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09 Jul 06 - 12:44 AM (#1779286)
Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk

I do indeed acknowledge it. ;-) Guest, I was using the word "England" only in the common colloquial sense, as one might in an informal conversation. What I meant in that context, clearly, was "the United Kingdom". If Teribus said "England" somewhere back there in a similar regard, I imagine that he too would have meant "the United Kingdom".

It is fairly common for people outside the UK to refer to ALL its inhabitants as "English", although technically they are not all English by any means.

One is best guided by context when interpreting such statements.

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