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28 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM (#1795569) Subject: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Does it make any difference which system of concertina, a beginner starts with. can all types of music be played equally well on all systems. Is it the player rather than the type of concertina thats important. |
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28 Jul 06 - 03:22 PM (#1795620) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: Alan Day Hallo Captain As you know the Anglo does not really lend itself to Classical music,although some pieces can be successfully played on the Anglo it's different note in and out makes it more difficult to play most classical pieces with left hand accompaniment and with smooth control and feeling.By the use of accidentals it is possible to achieve some success,but a Duet or English will do a far better job with this type of music. Al |
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28 Jul 06 - 04:48 PM (#1795692) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Yes, Although I suppose there are even one or two classical peices, that the english and duet concertina cant do justice to, namely harpsichord peices which require, different volumes for left and right, not possible on one concertina.But it is amazing the variety of music which can be played on the concertina, some excellent c d s have been produced in recent years, Boxing Clever, which features John kirkpatrick, Harry Scurfield , Tim laycock and Dick Miles. Anglo International is another. Brian Peters anglophilia ,Dave Townsend Portrait of a Concertina, All featuring excellent performers on the three different systems,to me this proves its the player thats important not the system. Anglo International has among others Noel Hill, John kirkpatrick, Scan Tester, MaryMcnamara, Zulu Squashbox. excellent. |
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29 Jul 06 - 06:38 AM (#1796088) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: Crane Driver The original question concerns the system a beginner starts with. The different systems are so different, it's best to start with the one you want to play. Starting with an Anglo, for example, won't make it any easier to learn English. You'll still have to start from the basics. I had the great good fortune to pick up a Crane duet as my first concertina - I had no idea what it was, and had to work out what went where for myself, but I've stayed with it. Since then, I have owned Anglo, English and McCann duet concertinas, but I've sold them all because I can play anything I want to play better and easier on the Crane. My advice for a beginner? Try as many different types as you can, and see what suits you. Get the best quality instrument you can possibly afford (I paid the equivalent of 5 weeks rent for mine, back in 1971). The hardest part of learning to play concertina, of any system, is finding a really good one. After that, it's just practice, practice, practice. Andrew |
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29 Jul 06 - 08:02 AM (#1796111) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Fooles Troupe Drifting slightly away from concertinas to accordions... I once saw a very talented guy play a Classical Piano Accordion Repertoire - on a (I think 3 row) Button Accordion! And if you had your eyes closed, you would be hard put to tell! And the fledgling button box player sitting next to me 'just didn't like the music', and didn't realise just how good a player he was! It IS possible to mimic the 'Anglo Style' on an 'English Box', but you will need to move the bellows in the same physical way that an 'Anglo Player' would, and not the natural way a normal 'English Player' would, in order to get the same 'legato, or lack of it' rhythmic style. And as for starting - you learn 'music' & 'music theory' (including 'reading the dots') on your first instrument,as well as learning the physical technique, no matter what it is - for all subsequent instruments, you are just mainly struggling with the physical technique of the instrument itself. So if you only really plan to want to play only one instrument, then get the one you want to start to work on. I was lucky - my Duet came with wrist straps. Any serious (ie used it a lot!) player would most likely have fitted them to any vintage instrument when they were originally 'new', so most boxes that don't have them now, were probably not used very much. |
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29 Jul 06 - 08:06 AM (#1796114) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Yes ,very good advice, I find the english suits me the best, Althogh I do play the duet as well. I think the duet hasnt been explored properly for trad irish scottish music yet, the octave unison overlap is very useful,played as either a linear instrument or a chordal instrument, using the left hand sparingly, Iwould give seroius consideration to the Crane Duet IF I was starting again.But at least half an hours practice a day is required on any concertina, and when one practices, take out the difficult phrases and play them over and over till you have them right. |
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29 Jul 06 - 08:21 AM (#1796118) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Fooles Troupe "when one practices, take out the difficult phrases and play them over and over till you have them right. " What! You mean you don't just play the bits you know well real fast and the bits you don't know sowell real slow? {:P |
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29 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM (#1796187) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Dear fooles troupe, you dont move the bellows in exactly the same way as an anglo player moves the bellows, you use finger attack combined with bellows movement, in my own particular case, I use pressure without reversing the bellows, rather like a fiddler might employ a broken slur, but the effect is a little bit more rhytmical,than a fiddlers broken slur, because I push or pull quite hard, But in the same direction.Re your last comment,my remarks about practising were intended for beginners, who generally appreciate help and who in my experience often make this sort of mistake.you are obviously not a beginner so your sarcasm is unecessary. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. |
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29 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM (#1796327) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: GUEST, Topsie Well I thought it was funny. |
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29 Jul 06 - 03:32 PM (#1796355) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Fair enough,humour is very personal, each to their own. personally I find william mcgonigle very funny. |
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29 Jul 06 - 03:39 PM (#1796361) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: GUEST,The Vulgar Boatman Satisfy the curiosity of an old man, Captain, with reference to your first post...how does a harpsichord produce different volumes in left and right hand? |
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29 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM (#1796373) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: GUEST,Ralphie Getting back to the original point about a good place to start. Like Mr Driver, I was lucky enough to start on a McCann (Another Duet) and have never looked back. Nowadays, you might find the odd McCann, but Cran Duets are as rare as Hens teeth. So, realistically all a beginner will find are English or Anglo systems. Both have their good and bad points. If you want to play fast free flowing tunes, then English, to play a more rhythmic dancey/Irish style then probably Anglo. Please don't shoot me, I'm generalising!!!! Neither is really suited for playing big classical arrangements (Stop Firing Damn You!) Good Luck anyway Ralph (Psssst...Hang out for a Duet IMHO!) |
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29 Jul 06 - 04:46 PM (#1796408) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman To the vulgar boatman. the point I was trying to make, is that there is some music that is not suited to the concertina.where the composer has indicated, for the piano forte or the harpsichord that the left hand should be quieter than the right, this cannot be acheieved on one concertina .I am aware the pianoforte is the ideal instrument for this, but to a lesser extent the harpsichord can achieve some variation between left and right as regards dynamics, the concertina cannot. In my opinion music for two harpsichords is best played on two concertinas rather than one concertina. I apologise if i did not make myself clear at the beginning, but hope I have now done so.Some music is not suited for the solo concertina, that includes some classical piano music and music for two harpsichords, and flamenco guitar music. |
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29 Jul 06 - 05:03 PM (#1796419) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: SussexCarole Ahoy there Captain! Perhaps I am being somewhat thick...but there seems to be no limitation to the possibilities of what is played on a Crane. I often throw a somewhat unusual tune (in what some would say an impossible key) for accompaniment by Andrew (Crane Driver)...and he always comes up with a melody & chording within a very short space of time. So are we talking about the capabilities of the concertina system or the player? BUT... we are talking folk...NOT classical or other structured music..perhaps that is the difference? Carole |
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29 Jul 06 - 05:04 PM (#1796420) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman The main difference between the harpsichord and the piano is the way the notes are sounded, please correct me if Iam wrong. Onthe piano the inside mechanism strings are struck and on a harpsichord they are plucked, you will get more variation of dynamics on a pianoforte, but you are still able to get a bit on a harpsichord just try playing the left quieter than the right and your there.now back to concertinas.Iagree with Ralphie, If Iwas starting again Iwould seriously consider a Duet. However I am not going to change now. |
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29 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM (#1796428) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Hi carole, Yes that is the difference, and applies to all systems of concertinas, because the bellows push air evenly between right and left. A minority of classical peices cannot be performed correctly. |
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29 Jul 06 - 05:11 PM (#1796432) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: SussexCarole Thank 'heavens' I don't sing classical!!!! |
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29 Jul 06 - 05:30 PM (#1796449) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: SussexCarole Do you really think that the concertina has a place in playing classical music? I always think that the music from a concertina depends on free expression/interpretation of a tune, not the grit tight constraints of a classical composition despite the fact that the concertina has a historical base there! |
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29 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM (#1796466) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Yes I agree with you, But then Im a professional folk singer, So in the words of Mandy Rice davies, [well he would say that wouldnt he]I suppose it has a place as long as i dont have to do it, or listen to it. |
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29 Jul 06 - 06:02 PM (#1796478) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: SussexCarole So why are we discussing the classical aspect of concertina playing on a folk site? |
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29 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM (#1796481) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: GUEST,Ralphie Carole Hi! Andrew has been playing as long as I, and sometimes we'll be thrown some bizarre key to play in...(C Sharp Major springs to mind!) Using a Duet (any system) or an English, with a bit of head scratching you can work something out....eventually. As for the classical reportoire, check out (if you can find it) Lea Nicholsons Brandenburg Concerto..(Multitracked Englishes). Well worth a listen, and took many years to record. Does it work? On one level Yes. but the mechanical restrictions of the instrument can't emulate things like the String sections. Hope this all helps Ralphie |
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29 Jul 06 - 06:08 PM (#1796482) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: Alan Day Hallo Carol from Sussex,I hope you will change your views on classical music played on the concertina after the issue of English International later this year and Duet International next year.I really have some lovely recordings in already and more to follow. Have a listen then and see if I have changed your mind. Al |
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29 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM (#1796489) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: SussexCarole Thanks Alan Would love to hear your recordings.......the lady could be for turning.... |
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29 Jul 06 - 06:43 PM (#1796503) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman I suppose I should have added ,That the most important thing, Is that if people get pleasure out of playing concertinas regardless of what kind of music they are playing, then that will shine through and enhance the music.Iam not against classical music being played on the concertina, its just I have no desire at the moment to do it. twenty years ago I played in a quartet playing light classical music. we released a VINYL L P The New Mexborough Concertina Quartet on Plant Life 071.I must stress again that its only a small minority of peices that are not suitable for the concertina. providing the players are accomplished enough, people can get great results and have alot of fun. |
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30 Jul 06 - 02:41 AM (#1796653) Subject: RE: is the english, or the anglo or the duet From: The Fooles Troupe Not really being much good on the concertina, I can however comment that I play the Piano Accordion all the time with different effective volumes for both sides. It's a really secret technique, if I told you, I'd have to kill you... Oh, all right then... If you hold down the bass buttons and vamp the keyboard buttons (staccato!) guess which side sounds louder? And for the reverse, you hold down the keyboard fingers (apparently extreme legato!) and restrict any lift off of the keyboard fingers unless absolutely necessary - if a note sounds repetitively then you get the effect by the vamping on the bass buttons! |
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30 Jul 06 - 04:19 AM (#1796685) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: GUEST,The Vulgar Boatman Reference the classical music aspect - we folk musicians have a tendency to forget the origins of most of the instruments we play...the English and duet concertinas have a much greater claim to playing classical, particularly "light classical", religious, "parlour" and music hall music than ever they had to traditional music. Even the anglo, which lends itself so well to dance music, is, in its more developed forms fully capable of stunning harmonic work, and at the turn of the 20th century, Regondi published a method for the anglo in several volumes which included popular tunes and songs of the day, Sousa marches and bits of Mozart and Beethoven. There was no folk music revival when those things were invented; we got lucky in that the concertina didn't become extinct (which was a damned close run thing) and that one or two talented and somewhat obsessive individuals did so much to promote a new use for the instrument. |
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30 Jul 06 - 04:41 AM (#1796698) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: Alan Day The Salvation Army did much to promote the English and Duet ,the instrument being ideal for playing their music on street corners. I was also in discussion with a player recently and I suggested that owing to the instrument being so portable that missionaries were probably responsable for the Anglo introduction to the Zulu's where Squashbox music has become an important part of their culture. Al |
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30 Jul 06 - 04:58 AM (#1796702) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: GUEST,Ralphie Hi Alan and "Vulgar!" Yes indeed. none of us would be playing at all if it hadn't been for enthusiasts who kept the whole damn thing going. So, a "BIG UP" to Mssrs Dickinson and Dipper for still making the buggers (Oi Colin....wheres my new one!!!) Have a good day all! Regards Ralphie |
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30 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM (#1796704) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: JamesHenry Alan Day re. your post 04:41AM Do you play your squashbox in the missionary position? |
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30 Jul 06 - 06:51 AM (#1796742) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: The Fooles Troupe Of course, that is the normal way to play it! Who do you think he learned it from? |
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30 Jul 06 - 07:00 AM (#1796747) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman There are fine examples of Squash box music on Anglo International.According to Alf Edwards tutor the concertina should always be played in an upright position.Playing it in the missionary position, reminds me of Jim Garrets, On My Little Concertina. |
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30 Jul 06 - 09:47 AM (#1796838) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: Valmai Goodyear Just a reminder that we have a couple of concertina workshops coming up at the Lewes Arms Folk Club, Lewes, East Sussex, UK. The tutor performs at the club in the evening. John Kirkpatrick, Anglo concertinas, Saturday 16th. September (full day, £30) Alistair Anderson, The Tunes of Will Atkinson FOR ALL CONCERTINA SYSTEMS, Saturday 28th. October (morning only, £15). Booking forms for John are already on our website www.members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk and forms for Alistair will be up shortly. Advance tickets for the evenings are also available and are recommended if you're coming any distance as our room only seats fifty people. Floor singers and musicians are always very welcome and will get a spot if they are there at the start of the evening. Tootle pip, Valmai |
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30 Jul 06 - 02:13 PM (#1797043) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: Alan Day No James hanging from the Chandelier. Al |
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30 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM (#1797079) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: JamesHenry Good man |
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30 Jul 06 - 04:33 PM (#1797131) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman Your definitely a high flier Al, do you play those Magnificent Men And Their Flying Machines, from The Chandelier.nice to hear from you. |
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31 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM (#1797840) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman yes , I would like to thank Steve Dickinson too . He has set my concertinas up so that theyre super sensitive, and really responsive like driving a RollsRoyce. |
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01 Aug 06 - 05:06 AM (#1798514) Subject: RE: concertina:is the english or the anglo or the duet From: The Sandman For the beginner the best value money wise is the duet of which there are four kinds. followed by the English , the most expensive is the anglo. |