String winder needed for fiddle

06 Aug 06 - 08:03 PM (#1803049)
Subject: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

So, who can design and BUILD me a string winder for a fiddle. The 'pegs' are geared machine pegs likd a guitar, etc. They are vertical from the peg box, but go floor ways rather than sky ways. I can send a good close up picture or post a link to one.

Takes me almost an hour to change ONE string and kills my wrist.
Never seen another fiddle like this.

THANKS!

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06 Aug 06 - 08:27 PM (#1803069)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: HiHo_Silver

I have had fiddles in for repair with machine heads replacing the pegs. was able to wind the pegs with a guitar peg winder. Some peg winders ae smaller than others. I am sure you will be able to find one with a bit of shopping. I shall look and see it there is a name on the one I am using. If the machine heads are of quality, one or two turns around the post should be sufficient and the excess string can be clipped off. Any guitar winder could be cut down and modified for this purpose.

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06 Aug 06 - 08:48 PM (#1803076)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: GUEST,Bardford

Would a Mandolin String Winder do the trick?

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06 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM (#1803091)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Nope....would have to take it off every 1/4 turn and re attach. Hold on...posting link to a pic next.

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06 Aug 06 - 09:30 PM (#1803099)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

OK....Pics here
Click! Take your meds before looking at the rest of the pics....Smile....

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07 Aug 06 - 04:36 AM (#1803261)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: s&r

I use a string winder from stew Macdonalds that fits into a battery operated screwdriver There is no handle to get in the way.

Stu

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07 Aug 06 - 04:39 AM (#1803263)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: s&r

Piture of similar here Picture

Stu

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07 Aug 06 - 09:20 AM (#1803404)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Worth looking into Stu. Thanks

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07 Aug 06 - 10:39 AM (#1803473)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Grab

Get a regular guitar-peg winder, remove the spindle, and replace with a 2" bolt or threaded rod of the same diameter. Fit nuts (and washers) to get yourself the spacing you need. 4mm bolt/rod should be plenty strong enough.

With this extra distance, it'll be difficult to do the winding. Get a bit of tubing to fit over the exposed part of the bolt/rod so that you can hold it vertical while you wind without the bolt/rod chewing your finger up.

You may find that the spindle is another bit of plastic that's part of one side of the winder. If so, just cut it off and drill a hole in its place. You may also find that the spindle is a pushfit, or circlip attachment, or some other daft arrangement. If it is, the nut/bolt may scratch the peg, and may even prevent the peg engaging in the winder's slot. The solution in that case is probably to dispense with a nut and epoxy the threaded rod in place. If you can get a nut/bolt in there but you can't get a spanner in, you can epoxy the nut/bolt in place. Oh, and (from sad experience) if you're going to epoxy a nut in place, make sure you insert the bolt *before* you add the epoxy, because filling the hold in the nut with epoxy is not a very clever thing to do... :-)

Graham.

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07 Aug 06 - 10:50 AM (#1803483)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Thanks Graham!!!!

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07 Aug 06 - 12:02 PM (#1803534)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: HiHo_Silver

FYI: The string winder I use is only stamped SWI which does not mean anything. It could have very well been made for a mandolin originally. Some of the new guitar buttons are most too large for it. Further, I believe the violin machine heads were available some years back form Geo Heinl & Co. Ltd. of Toronto, Canada. They no longer list them but do still list a mechanical non slip peg. That being said, I personally believe there is nothing better than a well fitted set of conventional pegs both for cosmetic appeal and tuning as well as over all sound quality.

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07 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM (#1803563)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Jeri

...and I also understand Grab may be looking at a different sort of winder thingie than I am, or, more likely, I'm missing something. If so, never mind. :-)

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07 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM (#1803586)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Grab

Damn, didn't think of that. You're right Jeri - the problem is the arm and not the handle itself. I'm not sure about the extension thingy though - I've not found that string winders are happy about gripping a peg, so trying to juggle instrument, winder *and* extension might be a pain.

The peg-holder bit is just plastic, right? Saw the peg-holder bit in half, so there's a top half with the winder spindle attached, and a bottom half that'll fit onto a peg. Move them apart by however much you need, and epoxy a flat bit of metal (1mm aluminium should do fine) to both of them on one side making sure they're aligned properly. When it's set, epoxy three more plates on the other sides, and you're done. That assumes the winder has a parallelogram-shaped peg-holder - if it's the kind that's rectangular, then you've got a nice long flat section on each side, so there's no need to bother with sticking anything on the short sides.

If you want to be extra clever after that, you could use small self-tapping screws to ensure that you can't sheer the metal strips off by catching them the wrong way, but that's strictly optional.

Graham.

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07 Aug 06 - 02:30 PM (#1803655)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Keep em coming....almost got the printer fixed......

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07 Aug 06 - 02:47 PM (#1803673)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: JohnInKansas

s&r's Stew-Mac drill socket looks like a really good idea. It appears to be made of plastic, and if it's one of the common (easy to mold) kinds it probably will soften enough if dipped in hot water to allow you to squeeze it down to a better fit on your smaller knobs. (I don't really know how big Sorcha's knobs are, except from pictures?).

That might provide an actual-practical-real use for those $8 - $12 (US) "electric drills" people keep giving me for Christmas and Birthdays that don't have enough torque to actually turn a wood screw (an advantage for this usage.)

One of the most recent "gifts" is a Black & Decker thing about the size of a 2xC-cell flashlight that runs off 4 AA batteries. $7.95 recently at WallyWorld(?). An attempt to drive one #8x1/2 wood screw pretty well ate a set of batteries and couldn't get the screw all the way in, in a properly piloted/countersunk hole in pine wood; but it works as well on rechargeables as on regular alkalines, and for turning the tuning pegs a set of batteries (or a freshly recharged set) should last through quite a few new strings. Most of them are reversible too, for unwinding the loose turns when you take a string off, or for "the other side" of the peghead if you wind them that way.

Another possibility might be one of the "universal sockets" that have recently become popular with "wannabe mechanics." The usual is a plain steel cylinder about 3/4" - 1" in diameter x about 2" - 3" long that's filled with spring loaded small pins. When you push it down on something the pins on top of the object are pushed back, and the pins that aren't pushed back form a "socket" that can turn almost any shape. The socket itself would probably be large enough to use like a screwdriver handle, especially if you put a layer of tape on it to make the OD "non-skid." I haven't seen these with anything other than a 3/8" square drive hole - for use with std socket wrench drives, and they often run near $20; but Wally's and most of the auto parts places I've been in recently have had them.

A "disk ratchet" might give some added grip with the "universal socket," if needed. This is a "socket wrench ratchet" in the form of a disk about 1.5" in diameter x 1/3" thick with a 3/8" or 1/4" square drive stud sticking out of it, intended to let mechanics get a "wrench" onto bolts/nuts in cramped spaces. Again, a bit "pricey" but worth it if it works better than the alternatives.

John

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07 Aug 06 - 02:50 PM (#1803677)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Cruiser

"(I don't really know how big Sorcha's knobs are, except from pictures?)."

No that is funny....when it was not meant to be, I'm sure!

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07 Aug 06 - 02:51 PM (#1803681)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Artful Codger

What about a socket wrench? There's sure to be a size that would fit your pegs snugly. Adding extenders of whatever length you need is literally a snap. It's easy to cart around, and it comes in handy for clubbing the fool who overwinds and breaks your strings with his electric screwdriver. ;-}

Codgerly...

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07 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM (#1803691)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

LOLOLOL..............'MY knobs' are rather small.....and I can measure Maggies.....

Bloody printer anyway!

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07 Aug 06 - 03:19 PM (#1803705)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Cruiser

Sorcha,

You are one good sport ma'am!

BTW, I never met a woman violinist that I was not very impressed with. Something about a fiddle in a woman's hands that is special.

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07 Aug 06 - 03:38 PM (#1803720)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Artful Codger

{...imagines Cruiser track-repeating his "Celtic Woman" DVD wolfishly...}

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07 Aug 06 - 03:59 PM (#1803739)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: JohnInKansas

While I don't think it's the most practical solution:

The "universal socket" in most stores here is called the Gator Grip. An alternative that's probably made by the same factory much cheaper at Yngfa Trading, $4.75 (US), although the "FOB Taiwan" might bring it up to common US retail prices by the time you add shipping.

The Gator Grip link shows an "adapter" with the hex stud on one end to fit your "electic screwdriver" with the square stud on the other end to fit the socket.

The ratchet mentioned above is on the order of SK Square Drive Thumbwheel Ratchet, also avialable at Sears item #00943410000 Mfr. model #45172, available in 3/8" or 1/4" drive both places.

The one I have came from Sears – I think – and has a 1/4" square stud on one side and a 3/8" stud on the other, but I don't find anything like it anywhere. They must have figured out that they could sell two if they got rid of the flip-over feature.

It should be noted that since these are "mechanic tools" they're heavy and pretty dense, so you might want a separate "carry bag" to avoid putting them in your fiddle case, (should you decide they solve your problem.)

John

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07 Aug 06 - 04:03 PM (#1803741)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

I HAVE A STRING WINDER!!! THANK YOU SNAP ON TOOLS!
Fingertip ratchet and 13mm socket!!!! Finger ratchet is a flat, reversible disc!!! WHHHEEEE! ($46, but Oh well....)

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07 Aug 06 - 04:09 PM (#1803748)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Artful Codger

Next on Helpful Hints: How to fashion a shoulder rest from C-clamps and carpet scraps...

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07 Aug 06 - 04:17 PM (#1803755)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

LOL...thanks, folks for thinking outside the box!

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07 Aug 06 - 04:25 PM (#1803772)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Cruiser

Hey you old Codger:

I must get that DVD...thanks for the "heads-up"!

Now, I am just going to have to get me one of those do-it-yourself string winders and I didn't even know that I needed one; the power of suggestion.

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07 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM (#1803839)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

PS....Maggies knobs are 13mm. Rather smaller than mine. Smile.....

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07 Aug 06 - 05:18 PM (#1803849)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Cruiser

Thank you for the followup. I hate to spend my time wondering about such matters.

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07 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM (#1803891)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Grin.....

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07 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM (#1803970)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: JohnInKansas

Sorcha -

13mm don't sound like much, but maybe you're talkin' like when our fishermen get together. 'Round here, a 6 inch catfish is purty big, cause we "measure 'em 'tween the eyes."

John

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07 Aug 06 - 07:45 PM (#1803975)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Cruiser

Hey JohnInKansas,

I just have to ask: did you intend that original statement to be a double-entendre? If not, it ended up as a classic one.

Man that was funny.

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07 Aug 06 - 08:47 PM (#1804006)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Oh, my man, I'm SURE it was intentional!!!! Want me to measure between MY 'eyes'? LOL......dis tread gon get mooved to bs soon....

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07 Aug 06 - 09:45 PM (#1804048)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: JohnInKansas

Taking lessons from some famous Brit or another:

"A gentleman is one who never gives offense ... ... ...



               unintentionally."

(Or somethin' like that.)

John

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07 Aug 06 - 10:31 PM (#1804067)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

John....lol.....

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07 Aug 06 - 10:52 PM (#1804074)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

BTW, Maggies knobs are 1.75" E-W, 1.5" N-S
Pretty small knobs if you ask me......

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07 Aug 06 - 11:38 PM (#1804106)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Cruiser

Now darn it JohnFK:

You equivocate more than my last ex-girlfriend. Real tough straightforward men aren't equivocators, so:

Did you or did you not intend that statement to be a double-entendre?

And, ugh, Ms. Sorcha did you, um, give your, er, well…your knob dimensions? You understand, the need to know is strictly for Mudcat statistical purposes and nothing else because you can't give one statistical knob value and leave the other out. You must "hobknob" it this situation for association analyses. Of course, your information will be safe with all who read it on this secure SSL forum.

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08 Aug 06 - 02:18 AM (#1804150)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: JohnInKansas

Cruiser -

Of course the reference to the size of Sorcha's knobs was a double-entendre. I specifically stated (1) that I could not give exact dimensions to assure that the suggested method would solve her problem, with the double intent of implying (2) that with direct observation of her own knobs she should be able to tell whether the suggested method would lead to an appropriate disposition of any current difficulty she might have with them.

Obviously, had I not had full faith and confidence in her ability to recognize the appropriate and pertinent features and characteristics of her knobs, and to adapt her usage and adjustment of her knobs and of accessories and tools for their optimal employent and deployment in a manner to obtain the fullest and most effective use of all their features, (with due attention to specifically applicable limitations should there be any), I would certainly have attempted to provide adequate and appropriate supplementary suggestions.

I am quite sure that Sorcha knows her own knobs much more intimately than any of those of us to whom they are not accessible for direct and close-up, hands-on observation, which quite obviously would provide the most favorable situation for providing complete and accurate (technical) comment.

My limited observation of her knobs, from photos only of course, indicates that they are fully adequate for what they should do, and her solution to the recently indicated difficulty should be more than satisfactory and should contribute greatly to her own pleasure and to the enjoyment of those with whom she fiddles.

John

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08 Aug 06 - 09:46 AM (#1804341)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Cruiser

John:

Thank you for your brief, succinct answer! You DO have a way of explaining yourself.

I got an unexpected good laugh out of a somewhat "technical" practical thread.

Thanks for the humor and the detail of your posts.

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08 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM (#1804354)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Well, gentlelmen, I can give you the shortest distance between two points of reference, but elevation and outside diameter must needs wait on an out of house consultant. Impartial inspector as it were.

(ROF)

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08 Aug 06 - 06:11 PM (#1804743)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Clinton Hammond

Jim Dunlop Turbo Tune String Winder

A LOT less that 49 bucks

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08 Aug 06 - 06:30 PM (#1804757)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Sorcha

Oh well.....at least I have one that I KNOW works for me.

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08 Aug 06 - 06:32 PM (#1804759)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: Jeri

John, you should thoroughly analyze this knob dilemma, whip up a scientific paper and submit it to these guys. You'll fit right in.

I'm just wondering why a regular cheapie string winder won't work. You could glue something inside the peg part so the peg doesn't sink in quite so far.

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08 Aug 06 - 07:03 PM (#1804793)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: The Fooles Troupe

ooooooooooo.....

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08 Aug 06 - 11:57 PM (#1804997)
Subject: RE: String winder needed for fiddle
From: JohnInKansas

Jeri -

The problem with most regular cheapie string winders is that they're made for guitars. The "socket" that goes on the button is often too large to get a secure hold on the smaller knobes on something like a mandolin, and I would assume on a fiddle, so it wobbles around too much to give much control.

Most guitars have the buttons all in a row, but on some mandos some of the buttons stick out further than the ones next to them. In the case of the fiddle, the shafts are at an odd angle. Most guitar winders put the "crank" right on top of the button you're cranking; so on a mando with different shaft lengths, or on the fiddle where they point antigoggly, the crank is continually colliding with the button next door.

It looks like the fiddle in question has a fair amount of space between knobs, to allow some clearance; but most guitar winders have too big a socket to fit between the knobs on a mando, so if the crank doesn't crash, the socket still knocks up on the adjacent buttons.

In other words, what works on one instrument may need more "adjustments" than it's easy to make to work with an even slightly different instrument. Sometimes it's good to start with something that "almost works" and tweak that design. Often it's easier just to start from scratch.

The "Dunlop" that Clinton found probably would work, but it looks like a smaller button has to go deeper into the socket to get the right grip; there appears to be only 3 "button sizes" built in (based on SWAG method). If one of them fits close enough, and for the smaller buttons if the shaft is long enough to get the button far enough into the socket, then you'd be pretty well set up with that one.

With the Dunlop, the socket alone is probably big enough that one could just pitch the crank and the shaft and use the socket as a "knob gripper." It looks like it would be about the equal of having one inch diameter knobs on your instrument, and unless you've got something really out of alignment that should make it really easy to turn (unless you're talking standup string bass, where you really need a 10 inch stilson wrench).

I dug out an old "Gator Grip" socket that was in the bottom of the junkbox, (they're $9.95 when I looked at Walmart tonight) and it works like a charm on my mando pegs. Just having the inch diameter for your fingers to work on makes it smooth and easy turning the pegs on one mando that's always been difficult to tune. If needed, you can get an adapter to mate the 3/8" square hole in the Gator to the 1/4" hex socket on any "interchangeable bit" screwdriver - electric or not ($2.85 at Ace Hardware yesterday for an adapter). The one inch OD is a close fit between pegs on the mando, but there's no interference if you're reasonably careful. The biggest disadvantage is that the socket is right at 5 ounces, which seems like a lot of weight to carry around in your kit.

A short wooden dowel about an inch in diameter, with a straight slot cut across one end to fit the knobs in question, quite probably would have been the simplest solution. Of course if you did it that simply, you'd need to do a little whittlin' and engraving and finishing to make it look exotically "artsy," - to keep people from swiping your tool to hold up the leg on the crooked table you bent while you were dancin on it - or somethin'.

John

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