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18 Aug 06 - 11:03 PM (#1813525) Subject: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will This is the first topic I have created here. For starters I am using the term "English Music" in this thread to refer to the traditional music that springs from England and originating with non-Celtic Anglo Saxon people (eg.ballads,jigs), as well as any more contemperary versions that stay true to it's basic structures and sound.I am not refering to just any music in the English language (eg.rock,classical). Now when it comes to Celtic music most of us have a fairly good idea of what that is and what it sounds like.I realise there have been debates about what is and isn't Celtic (debates of that kind exist for possibly any music category).But most of us know enough about Celtic music to know that U2 is not stylisticly Celtic, even though they come from Ireland.Most people won't even use the term "Irish music" to refer to U2.So I'm not going to bother defining Celtic music for people. With this introduction out of the way, I would like to get down to what this thread is really about: It has been my observation that Celtic music is much more well known and emphasised in culture than English music.As a result most people can instantly or quickly recognise the Celtic sound in a matter of seconds, be it traditional stuf by The Chieftons, Celtic-rock of the Pogues, or Celtic tinged new age material by Enya (which leans stronger on the new age/adult contemperary side of things).But how many of us would be able to instantly or quickly recognise the English sound in a matter of seconds, be it traditional, English-rock, or English tinged new age music? I doubt that most of us would recognise it quickly if at all, since most rarely get any exposure to it (including myself). Another result of the emphasis of Celtic sounds over English tunes in the world today, is the fact that English music is often overlooked in written music history or diminished in it's importance.For example when books or articles write about bluegrass or country music, you often hear about the Scots-Irish roots of this music, but there doesn't seem to be that much mention about the English contribution.The English after all brought over there jigs, fiddle tunes, and ballads to America, just like the Scots and Irish did.The English also imported the Sacred Harp singing style to New England and America (though a Celtic flavour can often be heard in it). Continued with 5 questions I have on this subject, and related comments..... |
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18 Aug 06 - 11:40 PM (#1813539) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Some questions I have concerning English music include the following: 1.What are some examples of traditional English music? (I have read about The Copper Family and have heard some examples of others, but my knowledge and exposure is very limited). 2.Is there any examples of bands or singers mixing up traditional English with rock (similar to what the Pogues did with Celtic-Irish)? And is there any other examples of contemperary hybrids of the English sound or tinge? 3.What is the basic difference between Celtic and English music (eg.scales,song structures,singing style,etc), especialy since both England and the Celtic lands have shared some of the same genres such as ballads, jigs and lining out of psalms? I am aware of certain things they have in common, and have a tiny bit of an idea where they differ (by ear) but want to understand it better. 4.How much did Celtic music influence English music, and visa versa? The fact that both the Celtic people (eg.Irish) and the English have a very similar accent suggests a cultural exchange of some kind.Obviously they are both geographicly close to one another, which often results in mutual borrowing.From what I've read, the lined out Psalm singing began in England and spread to Scotland, so that would be one example of an English element crossing into Celtic territoty.But what about jigs for example? Who had the jig first, the Celtics or the English? I've read that jig music may have originaly been of Italien origin, but not shure about that.And what about the British narrative ballad, which more times than not has been sung in the English language, be it England or Scotland? 5.In the Classic Christmas Carol movie (featuring Alistair Sim as Ebenezer Scrooge) we see the familiar holiday tale that takes place in London England.In one part of the movie Scrooge dances away to some happy piano music.Is this a good example of traditional English music? (Some people might laugh at this question, but I say bah humbug to you!) Well those are all my questions (for now anyway).I don't expect everyone to answer all 5 questions.But I do hope that different people can pick a question or comment on other aspects of this subject.Thanks for all the replys in advance! |
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19 Aug 06 - 12:26 AM (#1813560) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Desert Dancer Blind Will, are you in North America? (It might help those answering your questions to know what your background of understanding might be.) Here are a few comments: 1. What are some examples of traditional English music? Hitting the big names-- As recorded in the past: Sam Larner, Walter Pardon, Bob Hart, Harry Cox are all classic names. Currently performing doing primarily traditional English music are Waterson:Carthy, (and its components, Eliza Carthy, Martin Carthy, and Norma Waterson, individually and with others) Spiers & Boden, Alistair Anderson, John Kirkpatrick among others. 2. The classic example of folk rock based in English trad (at its peak in the 70s) is Steeleye Span. I don't know if there's a modern equivalent involving songs. There are some bands that specialize in dance tunes that push the envelope, such as Whapweasel, but I don't follow that as closely. (And some debate how English their music is: see this thread. ;-) #3 & 4 -- I'm afraid that my difficulty with responding to this (other than knowing that there are others here who can speak more knowledgeably on the topic!) is that the term "celtic" is such a lumping term, meaning, it lumps together Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and often more, including Breton and other music. My personal opinion is that there's as much difference among those musical cultures as there is between any of them and English music. And on #4, it's clear that lots of songs and tunes have wandered north and south and back and forth around the isles. I don't have a prime example on the tip of my tongue (tips of my fingers, in this case??) this very moment, but I have no doubt of it. As a US fan of English trad, the underdog trad -- woo-hoo! -- I'm happy to have you make the inquiries, since it sounds like you're a newbie to the topic. Do some listening and have a good time at it! ~ Becky in Tucson |
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19 Aug 06 - 09:24 AM (#1813724) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: greg stephens I think the question is essentially a bit meaningless. For example, your staement that Celtic music is instantly recognisable as such only refers to a very recently created modern sound(eg Pogues, Enya, Chieftains) which is basically an Irish/Scottish modern sound, heavily influenced by the bRitish folk revival of the 60's (which, in your terms, would be Celtic and Anglo-Saxon since). Now, what I am saying is, I dont think you would find actual Celtic traditional music so instantly recognisable. If you find the oldest possible traditional recordings of music from say Ireland, scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Britenny and Galicia, and have a listen. you would not find this common "Celtic spund" so easy to spot. You might find a blindfold test quite difficult to pass, if a bit of music was thrown in to fool you from places not cenventionally thought of as "Celtic". And anyway, it is just plain bad history to refer to the inhabitants of Ireeland and Scotland as "Celtic", and the inhabitants of England as "Anglo-Saxon". So personally, I wouldnt like to dig into to any argument on the"Celtic sound" in music, as in the last analysis I dont think there's really any such thing. But the differences, and similarities, of music in the various regions of the British Isles(and northwestern Europe in general) is a topic I'd happily get into. As regrads the sounds of English music, there is a considerable variety from region to region(or was). As in Ireland, some of these regional differences are being smeared out fast by the structure of the folk scene, population movement etc. To start with what I know about: my own band's new CD "A Trip to the Lakes" by the Boat Band, is devoted to NW English musicwhich borders on Scotland and Ireland(via the Iriah Sea). A quick look on google will find tracks you can download (some for free)to get a flavour. You can also find, on the internet, my aricle about William irwin, the Cumbrian fiddler, which I hope you find interesting as background. And William Irwin provides a fine example of why I find the initial Celtic/Anglo-Saxon structure of your approach so unproductive and confusing. William Irwin was an English fiddler, so in the "Anglo-Saxon" camp in your theoretical world. But Cumbria, the part of England where he lived, means "Land of the Welsh" or "Land of the Celts". And his surname, Irwin, might suggest a possible Scottish family connection. But the majority of placenames where he lived were Scandinavian (predominantly Norwegian). Reality is often much more complicated, and much more interesting, than simplified modern theories. Have a listen to a couple of tracks, and tell me. Do they sound "Celtic"? or "Anglo-Saxon"? Or something else? And if so, what? Thanks for raising a very interesting topic. |
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19 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM (#1813726) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: greg stephens Blind Will: are you named for Johnson, Walker or Purvis? Or someone else? |
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19 Aug 06 - 11:18 AM (#1813776) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Dave the Gnome You mean instantly recognisable Celtic music like the Pogues classic "Dirty Old Town"? Written by Ewan MacColl from Salford, England? Or instantly recognisable Celtic music like "Silent Night" (German) on the "Celtic Christmas" album I have? Or maybe like the many Ralph McTell songs included in the books of Celtic Balads you see? Need I go on? We could make similar comparisons with American and Celtic and/or English music. Little Musgrave / Matty Groves etc. but what is the point. Who can 'lay claim' to any style or genre of music. It's all the same. Some we like, some we don't. Aside from a futile excercise it is also divisive - It hasn't happened yet but it won't be long before some pratt comes on to say how good Celtic music is compared to English crap or vice-versca. I guess you are talking about Irish or Scottish music as Celtic as well. What about Welsh? Or Cornish? Or Breton? Sorry but it is all much to complex for any sensible answers. Just relax and enjoy it is my recommendation:-) Cheers DtG |
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19 Aug 06 - 11:33 AM (#1813787) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca I agree. "Instantly recognizable" is a misnomer as the people above have related. The scales and such that you mention in the original message can be found to be different in Scottish and probably Irish Gaelic songs which are known to be from earlier than the 18th century. Pentatonic scales and other scales of that sort were common in Gaelic songs and tunes. If you break down "Celtic" into Gaelic and non-Gaelic, you might have something "recognizable" or close to it. At least there, you would probably only be dealing with Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Man, and parts of Galacia, all of which are known to be "Celtic" countries. Perhaps! |
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19 Aug 06 - 11:34 AM (#1813788) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Just as a thought, are we contributing to a college paper, Will? |
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19 Aug 06 - 11:57 AM (#1813799) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Red Big generalisation I know, but here goes. Scottish and Irish music has balls, oomf and yeehah. English music is twiddley dee and morris prancing. |
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19 Aug 06 - 12:15 PM (#1813803) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,DB You mean English is grey twoddle? Irish is bright and gay? McColl English when you fancy, Scotch when not. Celtic = Pure of race and heart English = bastardised mixture, evil heart. |
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19 Aug 06 - 12:21 PM (#1813807) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: jonm If you were to go back 500 years or so, I don't think there would be much to distinguish the origin of most British Isles (or Northern Eurpoean) music apart from the language of the lyrics. Certain instruments give regional clues, too, although thses would occur later on. Since then, the English set about empire building and much value was placed on having travelled and seen the world, so a lot of foreign music and cultural references were added to the popular canon. Meanwhile, the Irish and the Scots continued to be persecuted by the English and invested much more of their national identity into their music, which has, as a consequence, remained much less altered over the intervening period. The vestiges of English music remained mostly in martial music and, as John Kirkpatrick says, you can recognise English tunes because you can march to them. The modern Celtic sound is a generalisation based on instrumentation and ornamentation style which needs care if you then refer to all the tunes as Celtic. There are a number of tunes of English origin recorded by Celtic groups which have been "Celticised" and you wouldn't know their true origin. Those would be the ones with balls and oomph, Red. English traditional music has been withering on the vine since we stopped valuing our cultural heritage as a nation. When you compare Morris with the vapid and uninteresting circle dances which are revered in many European countries as their traditions, we should be proud to have something with some vigour and violence in our culture, apart of course from football hooliganism. I suppose the English left their country to conquer and bring back other cultures, the Scots and Irish left to escape poverty and took their culture with them. Certainly, the Irish tradition is far stronger abroad than in its home country, where Nashville holds sway almost everywhere. |
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19 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM (#1813809) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Lester Guest DB Another fine, considered, inteligent contribution, just like your addition to the "english concetrina and irish music" thread. :-( |
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19 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM (#1813810) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Big Al Whittle All a bit daft if you ask me. the guy asks about English music and you tell him about english Song. the fact is if there was an English music - it was aprobably Celtic in origin. By the time anybody started looking it was certainly fragmentary. the Lincolnshire bagpipes that were still around up the 19th century point to that. And some people claim they can hear modal inflections in the recordings of songs by Joseph Taylor - also of Linconshire. The Watersons and Carthy are an imaginative attempt by nice eductaed middle class folk revivalists at recreating an English style - but they are about as valid as grammar school boys like Paul Weller singing punk music wiv cockney accents, and much less influential. You pays your money and takes your choice. The overwhelming influence on English music for over a hundred and thirty years have been American performers with their attractive and eclectic style. In England the consciously educated middle classes try to come up with a formula that predates the American invasion. Some of us feel uncomfortable with a style of music that rejects and alienates the music sensibilities of our parents and grandparents and great grandparents. |
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19 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM (#1813811) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker i'm english and prefere east european folk music and klezmer.. beautiful haunting melodies.. always affects depths of my emotions in ways brit & celtic folk just fails to reach.. but on t'other hand.. 1970's anglo folk rock with loud electric guitars and drums.. is *%$*in' exciting and almost unbeatable !!! |
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19 Aug 06 - 05:00 PM (#1814027) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Les from Hull Probably the one kind of 'English music' that is nearest to what you call 'Celtic Music' is Northumbrian music. The people of the North-East of England didn't throw their music away in the same way as many of the other parts of the country. You could start with than fine piper, fiddler and composer Kathryn Tickell. weelittledrummer thinks that English music was imported from Ireland and Scotland - there's no evidence for this, more of a shared culture that the English disregard more than did their neighbours. But then he thinks the Watersons are middle-class! Check out their (non-middleclass) work as Waterson:Carthy and particularly the work of Eliza Carthy who has done more than most to re-introduce English instrumental music. And its not twiddley-dee and morris prancing as GUEST,Red thinks (I always value an opinion based on widespread knowledge and pure science). Jigs have been around England Ireland and Scotland for a long time, and it would not be possible to say who got them first. John Kirkpatrick has been a strong supporter of English music for many years - check out the many things he's been involved in. And if he can march to anything he plays he's even cleverer than I thought he was and I'm going to count his legs again next time I see him. |
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19 Aug 06 - 05:24 PM (#1814046) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Big Al Whittle Which part of our country didn't the celts ivade? why would it be anything else? And I don't think they came from Ireland and scotland. they probably came here first before they went there - who knows? and frankly who bloody cares. There is celtic influence in half teh place names of england and in a lot of the church architecture. And yes I do think the waterson/carthy approach is based loosely on the atavistic drive deep within the breast of all nice Englishmen to say I am a librarian/ teacher/social worker/etc and I want to meet others of my type rather bay City Rollers fans. |
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19 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM (#1814074) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: treewind There's also a lot of Anglo Saxon, French and other European influence on place names and architecture. But to call that Celtic (even though the Celts may have come from Europe many centuries back) isn't useful to someone who's trying to distinguish modern "Celtic" music (much of which is as artificial as the Waterson/Carthy stuff you keep on about, by the way) from "English" folk music. What about the rigid stylised requirements of the Welsh eisteddfodau? or the equally rigorous formalities and rules of the Royal Scottish Country Dancing Society? Is that celtic? it certainly isn't English. Does it count? who gets to choose? It's dangerous to generalise. Anahata |
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19 Aug 06 - 08:53 PM (#1814152) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Tootler Where I live, in Middlesbrough, the place names are Scandanavian in Origin. This is true down much of Eastern England. Elswhere in England place names are Anglo Saxon in origin. There are in fact very few place names in England which are Celtic in origin. The main one are river names and a few prominent landscape features. I believe that the British Isles has a shared heritage of traditional music with local variations. Tunes, both song and dance, have found their way all over both the UK and Ireland so that it is difficult to say where many of them originated. They way the tunes are played varies from place to place, however. An interesting example I came across last week when a tune I learnt a few years ago as a morris dance tune turned up as the tune to a Scottish song which I learnt at Folkworks summer school recently. I think the term "Celtic Music" smacks of marketing dept. speak and as such is meaningless. Add to that it is all too often used, incorrectly in many cases, as a synonym for "Irish Music". I once saw a review of a Kathryn Tickell CD refer to her music as "Celtic music" which it most definitely is not. That was the point when I fully realised what a meaningless term "celtic music" was. |
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20 Aug 06 - 12:43 AM (#1814234) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Murray on Salt Spring 'Celtic' will include some Scottish music, e.g., but the purist will add "from the Celtic areas", i.e. Gaelic-speaking. Originally, that is. The rest is from the Lowlands, which (speech-wise) is on the same continuum as Northumbrian, shall we say. As said above, the music of the North of England is on a par with "Celtic", and is actually a very good example to pick. Your Southern music, from the home counties, Zummerzet etc., may be typified by morris stuff, which may be wimpy compared to loud pseudoAmerican rock, but is for me typical English [non-Celtic] music. If Celtic is what Enya et al. sing, then English is what Maddy Prior sings. |
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20 Aug 06 - 01:00 AM (#1814239) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Thanks for all your answers, opinions and suggestions. Let me first begin with Becky's comments... **Blind Will, are you in North America? (It might help those answering your questions to know what your background of understanding might be).** Yes, I'm Canadian.But the racial roots of my ancesters are a mix of English,Scottish,Irish,Norwegian,German and maybe some dutch.Musically I'm admitadely more from a rock and modern background than folk (which can easily make me feel like an outsider or odball misfit on mudcat). Presently the Celtic or Celtic flavoured material of my own music selection is mostly limited to Enya, Loreena McKennitt and Kemper Crabb, along with a bit from others such as The Revolutionary Army Of The Infant Jesus.(The last group is a group from England that is one of my favourites, who sometimes display a Celtic tinge).But I have also listened to other Celtic related sounds from either the radio or internet, including Gaelic Psalm singing and tunes that are said to be Celtic music from Spain and Scandanavia (including songs that are suppost to be traditional or reflecting a medieval type sound).I'm hoping to add some Gaelic Psalm singing to my selection, since I enjoy it's ethereal and middle eastern like qualitys. I listened to your examples of traditional English music.The first four singers you mentioned were obviously unaccompanied solo singers (reflective of the ballad tradition).What I heard didn't sound particularily Celtic sounding to me, though I could hear something of a slightly Celtic quality at times.They have more of a raw way of singing.(It would be interesting to hear some classic unaccompanied solo singers of the Irish and Scottish tradition for a comparison).What I heard from the Waterson Carthy group often has more of what I recognise as that Celtic sound or influence, but not in a full blown way.They also varied in style.For instance their track "Let the Belgine Run" has a lead vocal sound that is very much like the traditional English ballad singer, while it's Celticish vocal harmonies remind me a bit of sacred harp singing (but more polished and probably influenced by popular music to a certain extent).Others like "Captain Kidd" or "Bright Phoebus" clearly draw upon "urban folk" and American influence.Thanks for helping to give me a better idea of this music. |
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20 Aug 06 - 01:15 AM (#1814241) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will It's getting late but I'll try to add a couple more comments. Greg Stephen's asked: **Blind Will:are you named for Johnson,Walker or Purvis? Or someone else?** I'm named after Blind Willie Johnson, but in real life I go by the first name of Will (a shortened version of my official birth name that I don't like).I'll get to some of your other comments later. George Seto: **Just a thought, are we contributig to a college paper, Will?** No, I only went up to grade 12. |
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20 Aug 06 - 06:29 AM (#1814324) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Dave the Gnome I'm sure Martin and Norma would be very pleased to hear that they do Celtic harmonies and draw on the American urban influence;-) Celtic music has balls while English music is twidlle dee morris dancing? Hmmm. Firstly - I told you it would happen. Secondly the comment obviously comes from someone who has never heard Steeleye Span or seen the Witchmen. Out of interest did you know that 'raddle drum', Ie drum made from a hide stretched over an agricultural sieve, is in evidence in English music far earlier than the Bodhran in Irish music? As usual we have kept the good bits and let the Irish have our cast offs:-) If you want to hear more English music have a listen to the Albion Band, Brass Monkey and John Kirkpatrick as well as those mentioned before. Cheers DtG |
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20 Aug 06 - 07:11 AM (#1814344) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Marje Will, someone commented on the fact that you'd asked about music but got replies about song; this is probably because your original post mentioned the Copper family, who are purely vocal, so I'm referring to both music and song in this reply. I think you need to get away from identifying music you listen to as sounding "celtic" or "non-celtic" or "celticish". There may be a sound you're looking out for but it's really not got much to do with the Celts, who ceased to be an identifiable race and culture many centuries ago. "Celtic music" is a marketing term, applied mostly to the modern style of Irish folk music (featuring vocals accompanied by bands, octave mandolas, etc). Here are a few (very generalised) observations for you to think about: Vocal harmonies are much more a feature of traditional English song than of Irish or Scots song. Traditional Irish song relies more on ornamentation. Irish music has its own distinctive sound; Scottish music has (to my ear) as much in common with English as with Irish. Highland Scots are (if you want to be racist about it) the celtic part of Scotland, and the music there is different from the mainstream, lowland Scottish music. English music, too, varies very much across the different parts of the country. Anglo-Saxon isn't necessarily the dominant feature - the Normans and the Vikings/Scandinavians have had a fair bit of input into English culture in some areas. And of course there is lots of overlap between English/Irish/Scots/Welsh music and song. Just forget the misleading and unhelpful "celtic" label and try listening to a wide range of music from these islands, both the older traditional stuff and the more modern "revival" music and song. Although we're a very mixed race now, you'll soon begin to identify distinct regional or national differences in the sounds you hear, and I'm sure you'll find much to enjoy. |
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20 Aug 06 - 09:00 AM (#1814385) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Stu Excellent post Marje. I agree with the poster above who said the musical culture of these Islands is a shared one. None of the traditions anywhere in the Isles developed in isolation, and it's this diversity that is our strength (I'm sure some of the more cynical would disagree with that comment), if only we could all play to it - pun intended. A look at many folk CD's who-plays-what will show how great the crossover is between the four countries. But to go with modern national boundaries, for English music try listening to Bellowhead and any Spiers and Boden, Kathryn Tickell etc for some fine rollicking music. Folk -nfluenced rock groups who have taken some inspiration from traditional English music include Led Zepplien, Jethro Tull, The Levellers and Chumbawumba. "English music is twiddley dee and morris prancing. Obviously. |
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20 Aug 06 - 09:07 AM (#1814390) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Richard Bridge I defy anyone to show more exciting harmony than the sadly missed Young Tradition. |
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20 Aug 06 - 10:58 AM (#1814432) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,vielleuse "I think the term "Celtic Music" smacks of marketing dept. speak and as such is meaningless." Absolutely. I recently saw an American webpage which referred to Blowzabella as celtic music, which is ridiculous. It strikes me as being a marketing ploy aimed at Americans of Irish and Scottish ancestry. I play hurdy-gurdy and often get asked "Is it celtic?" to which I reply firmly "no". I think because Irish folk music never died out and continues to flourish in England often more strongly than English folk music, non-folkies are often not really aware of any other folk tradition than the Irish one, and are unaware that drone-based music is common all over Europe and far beyond. They hear a drone and think "celtic". |
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20 Aug 06 - 12:26 PM (#1814466) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: JohnB http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mlcr/mlcr01.htm http://www.angelfire.com/home/thefaery5/ I only briefly scanned the above sites, but what do these "celts" have to do with the "diddley diddley" played way too fast music that gets called celtic today. What happened to the melody of the tunes? I find I can still hear the melody in so called "english" music, as in general it is played at a speed you can still hear the tune and not just the twiddley ornamentation. JohnB |
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20 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM (#1814481) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Ron Davies What's your evidence that Sacred Harp style was imported by the English to the US.? My understanding is that Sacred Harp in the US started with William Billings, Daniel Read etc. in the 18th century, and many others in the 19th century. There is certainly a link with West Gallery--but the chronology appears to be such that there was cross-pollination--very hard to say who 'imported" what in what direction. William Billings, Daniel Read, etc did their work in the US--even partly before its formation. Billings' Chester--written during the Revolution--was in the running to be the national anthem--though it's quite likely that the line "New England's God forever reigns" did not help its chances. It's certainly true that in the Sacred Harp book there are many tunes and lyrics from Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley etc. But the fasola style at least in its Sacred Harp pentatonic approach, as far as I know, originated in the US--it was in fact the first means of teaching music here--and many "singing schools" did just that---before the traditional (European) means of reading music triumphed. Do you have evidence that pentatonic fasola singing in England predated the American Revolution? I don't claim to be the ultimate authority--and I'd be genuinely interested if you have evidence of this. In fact I would actually say that the rough--and pentatonic--style of Sacred Harp is more "Celtic" than English-- and there are lots of 4ths and open 5ths. And I'm saying that as a confirmed Anglophile. |
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20 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM (#1814490) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Blowzabella Now see what you started, Blind Will..... |
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20 Aug 06 - 08:14 PM (#1814716) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will **Now see what you started, Blind Will..... Yes, apparently I brought up one of those "divisive" hot button topics.But I think it's primarily just a sensitive subject in Britian.For me it's just a topic I find interesting and wanted to know more about. |
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20 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM (#1814744) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Jack Campin The Sacred Harp style derives from one common to the whole of Britain until the 18th century. It subsequently got stamped out by tidy-minded church reformers everywhere except the Outer Hebrides, but by the time that happened, enough English and Scottish settlers had taken it to the US to keep it viable there. Pentatonism is no mark of anything. The oldest documented Scottish and Irish music is very firmly heptatonic, and pentatonic modes are found all over the world. If anything pentatonism is often a recent innovation in Scotland and Ireland rather than a relic of anything ancient. One place this comes up is in tunes to be played in medleys, as with dances and marches. Tune-medley dances and military pipe marches are both a 19th century innovation. For both, you need to vary the tonality to keep things interesting, and switching between different gapped-scale modes is an effective way to do that (and on the Highland pipes, about the only effective way). So you suddenly see a whole raft of pentatonic pipe marches coming out of the British Army after 1850, and a similar boom for reels and jigs in the folk-revival era when tune medleys became the rule. Parallel 4ths and 5ths are pretty rare in any kind of Scottish or Irish tradition, though they were once common in popular religious chants all round Christian Europe. |
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20 Aug 06 - 09:13 PM (#1814761) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker ..and on the 8th day God eventually woke up with a diabolical hangover.. popped a glass of alka seltzers.. shouted out at a bunch of irritating fey harp pluckin angels then banished them to the coldest wettest most dreariest regions of the British isles.. he told 'em to fuck off and find their own snakes and apples.. thats how celtic music and cider got invented.. honest.. swear thats the truth.. its probably in the bible in an appendix somewhere in the back pages.. |
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20 Aug 06 - 09:45 PM (#1814774) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Obie Blind Will, I think that the term "Celtic" is often misleading. "Gaelic" music on the other hand is much more defined. Since you live in Canada you are no doubt familiar with the traditional music of Cape Breton Island. While this is broadly defined as "Celtic" it can be much more accurately defined as Gaelic, and Scottish Gaelic at that. However, this playing style has largely been lost in Scotland, and replaced with more "English" styles. |
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20 Aug 06 - 10:08 PM (#1814782) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Obie, Yes I've heard Cape Breton music before, though I wouldn't have as much exposure to it as those living in the maritime provinces.Thanks for the info. |
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20 Aug 06 - 10:25 PM (#1814788) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Goose Gander "Pentatonism is no mark of anything. The oldest documented Scottish and Irish music is very firmly heptatonic, and pentatonic modes are found all over the world. If anything pentatonism is often a recent innovation in Scotland and Ireland rather than a relic of anything ancient." This is true of composed music, but it probably does not apply to folk melodies. Among British folk music, 5 and 6 note 'gapped' scales are much more common in northern Britain than in southern England. This probably represent more a survival of older approaches to melody than innovations borrowed from modern composers. The gapped scales and circular melodies that fascinated Cecil Sharp in the Southern Appalachians certainly cannot be traced to the innovations of modern composers. While I don't believe scales and melodies of this sort are specifically 'Celtic', they have lingered (like bagpipes and drone notes) in regions that have been labled (however accurately or inaccurately) as Celtic. |
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20 Aug 06 - 11:56 PM (#1814823) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Ron, **What's your evidence that Sacred Harp style was imported by the English to the US?** This understanding I have had is based on articles and possibly some books I have read.My understanding has been that the style of Sacred Harp singing existed before the shape notation was made for it (an American innovation) and that it began initially as an American import from England (via New England).As far as I know the first American practice of Scared Harp singing began in New England and from there spread to other parts of America--such as the Scots-Irish in the Appalachian area and black Americans (each of these groups putting their own flavour and influence on the music).If indeed it did originally come from England it went through some changes and adapted to the repertoire available in America (eg. the use of American campmeeting songs).The Sacred Harp I have heard has varied in style, some of it having the clear quality of that dreaded "Celtic" word and other examples not having it. Now it's very possible that some of the information I have received is flawed or only gives part of the story.But nethertheless hear is some evidence of this view. Hear are some excerpts from http://www.texas-ec.org/publications/texascooppower/archive/201harp.aspx : "...To fully understand Sacred Harp, you must understand it's history.It dates to Elizabethan England and "solimization" the singing of syllables, not words, as part of the musical learning process.Brought to North America in the 17th Century by the Pilgrims, solmization used four old English syllables (fa,sol,la and mi) to denote the tunes of the standard musical scale....In New England, church music teachers took the "fa-sol-la' system a step further.Infused with democratic spirit, they sought to breath renewed fervor into church life by holding singing schools in the tradition of the English parish singing school.But illiteracy, musical and otherwise, held them back.In 1801, two upstate New York music teachers--William Smith and William Little--came up with a new idea.A student could better visualize the tune, they reasoned, if each written note had it's own shape..." This following article suggests that the American shape note tradition originated in part from West Gallery Music in England, but one of the big differences in the West Gallery tradition is it's use of musical instruments.(I didn't know about this last fact till tonight): Excerpts from http://www.revelsdc.org/revelat/shape.html : "....The American shape note tradition originated in part from West Gallery Music, a type of singing found in English parish churches and non-conformist chapels between 1750 and 1850.....Singing masters began teaching English congregations three-and four-part harmony.Few members of these congregations could read music, so musical instruments were used to support the parts.Each instrument led a group of singers gathered around it.Popular instruments for this purpose included fiddles,cellos,basoons,oboes,clarinet and flutes.In America, where strictures against bringing secular instruments such as fiddles into churches were more severe, and where finding a bassoon and someone who knew how to play it was often impossible, Yankee ingenuity saved the day with the invention of "a new type of notation", in which the positions of the notes of the scale were signalised by four shapes..." Lastly another article suggests that the "fa,sol,la" way of singing began in England, but it doesn't say that it came to America exclusively from England.It does say that "This technique was transplanted from Great Britian to Colonial America long before any change occured in the conventional roundhead music notation." This statement can be found at: http://www.fasola.org/introduction/note_shapes.html Is there any examples of West Gallery music that still exist in Britian, especially ones I could hear on the net? PS. To Greg Stephens, I still plan on enventually resonding to your other questions and comments earlier.I've just been sidetracked with other stuf in the mean time. |
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21 Aug 06 - 12:31 AM (#1814833) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Thanks, Will. Curious as to the source of the questioning. Where in Canada? I'm in the Maritimes that you mentioned. I'm a born-Cape Bretoner! Still live in Nova Scotia. |
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21 Aug 06 - 07:17 AM (#1814992) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Dazbo Celtic is as much a meaningful musical term as World Music. Many people here in England who are not into folk music think that all folk music is, by definition, Irish. The Irish are Celts. Therefore all folk music is Celtic. To my ears, the main difference I hear between Irish music and English music is in the playing styles. In the Irish music I hear in England the playing is, usually, technically very good but, to my mind, the main aim of the musicians seem to be speed and ornamentation. Whereas the English tunes generally seem to be played at slower speeds with a much more rythmic feel. I think you can dance more easily to most English tunes than you can Irish. For some English style dance bands (English Ceilidh) look up: The Old Swan Band Burlsdon Village Band Hekety Random Tickled Pink Peeping Tom The Committee Band The Bismarcks Mawkin The Gloworms Florida All Blacked Up Dartmoor Pixie Band Many of these bands play tunes of Irish origin and it's interesting to compare their versions with those from the 'Celtic' versions. My own hugely sweeping statement with too many exceptions to the rule is that "The Irish style is candy-floss as opposed to the English meat and two veg". For Singing there are two excellent CDs from Fellside: Voices and Voices in Harmony. Another recommendation for Spiers and Boden, Bellowhead, any Carthies and Kathryn Tickell. But also: Witches of Elswick, Jane and Amanda Threllfall; Crucible. |
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21 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM (#1815003) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: greg stephens I see the famous "Scots-Irish" arriving in this thread. They appear to be a mythical race that settled in the Appalachian mountains. This enabling proponents of the Celtic uber-music theory to label Appalchian music, and the people, as basically non-specific Celtic(or possibly Gaelic). These "Scots-Irish" may be be found on many websites aa the dominant cultural group in the area, with all sorts of associated theories about the music. Theories of the origin of bluegrass, oldtime, country music etc often draw heavily on these settlers. I can't help feeling, though, that the presence of so many English-type tunes and songs, and English-type place.names, suggests a more powerful non-Gaelic presence in the area than is often acknowleged. |
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21 Aug 06 - 07:51 AM (#1815010) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Paul Burke Nothing mythical about Scots-Irish. Protestants from Ulster emigrated to America in large numbers in the 18th century. Here's a BBC article about them. But I think Dazbo is ight about the sound, at least as interpreted in the last 50 years or so. English dance music? The English must dance with sacks of coal on their backs... (runs for deep square leg)... |
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21 Aug 06 - 07:54 AM (#1815011) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Dave the Gnome Speed isn't everything Paul as I am am sure many ladies will tell you... :D (tG) |
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21 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM (#1815099) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: sian, west wales Just a few points: Welsh music is quite different from Irish or Scottish. One top musician I know explains it by saying that Irish music is about unity, and Welsh about harmony. Another few emphasize that Irish is about ornamentation and Welsh is about variation. They're different, anyway, and all this is part of why I cringe at the 'Celtic' label. Even 'Gaelic'. Re: Anahata's remark about the Eisteddfod - yeh, it has had a strangle hold but most people admit that Eisteddfod singing is all about aiming for Western Classical style excellence rather than 'folk'. It's encouraging that some of the 'folk' competitions are faltering because (IMO) the practitioners are realizing that competition isn't the be all and end all. There are lots of places where you can hear the living tradition including Plygain carol services at Christmas which brings us to ... ... Fa so la and ilk. Plygain singing has retained a much older singing style which sounds to my ear quite similar to Fa so la. I read "Sound of the Dove" some time ago and the author writes that the congregations she studied in Appalachia traced themselves back to the Welsh Baptist Churches of Delaware and ... Pennsylvania? ... in 1703 or thereabouts. (William Penn was Welsh, IIRC) I am not trying to make a case for Fa so la being 'Welsh', just trying to reinforce the points above that the style was quite broad-spread. Many English academics, working in a variety of fields, think things are 'English' because they never thought to do any research into areas where the supporting literature isn't IN English. twits. sian |
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21 Aug 06 - 10:54 AM (#1815120) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Jess A Hey Will, not sure where in Canada you are but Mill Race Festival in Cambridge, Ontario http://www.millracefolksociety.com/ often has English acts booked and might be a good place to witness some of this music live if it's close enough for you to get to. Unfortunately though you've missed it for this year as it takes place at the end of July. I play & sing with English band Crucible and we've been booked there a couple of times and are hoping to return next summer. Jess A http://www.cruciblemusic.co.uk |
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21 Aug 06 - 11:24 AM (#1815146) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Val As Tootler & Vielliuese alluded above, the term "Celtic" has apparently been seized upon by The Recording Industry as a convenient marketing label, often applied indescriminately to anything that sounds like it might have come from somewhere in Britain and has folk-ish roots. My personal theory is that for the American market, somebody decided that "English" or even "British" might have negative connotations (didn't we kick them out o'here a few years back?) but "Celtic" invokes assorted romantic images without the negatives and thus is a better advertising tool. Val |
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21 Aug 06 - 11:47 AM (#1815161) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Michael Morris Greg- No, nothing mythical about the Scots-Irish, and very little Gaelic about them either. They were not a race, either (whatever that means), but a almalgation of lowland Scots, border dwellers, northern English (with midlanders and southern English mixed in as well, though Ulster generally was not a destination of choice for southrons). No need to rehash too much of their history in the British Isles and North America, but there is plenty of scholarship (not just magazine articles and websites) to keep any interested reader busy for some time. A few points should be made. Briefly, Scots-Irish and other northern British populations were strongly represented in the populations that settled in the North American backcountry in seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth century. Many settled in Appalachia, others further north, and others went west to Missouri, Arkansas, Texas and beyond. Given that the core of the Scots-Irish population was Anglo-Scot, the lack of Gaelic songs and place names in Appalachia should not be surprising. As far as their influence upon the music and folkways of the upper South and Southwest, it's less important to count raw numbers than to consider where the Scots-Irish went and what they did when they got there. And for what it's worth, contemporary observers, historians, and geographers have long noted the presence of this population in the backcountry (including but certainly not limited to Appalachia)and their influence upon both regional and national culture in the United States. |
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21 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM (#1815194) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: JohnB Jess A is far too modest, she plays with Hekety as well as Crucible. We will have you over here in Canada anytime Jess. She is right about Millrace being a great festival too. JohnB |
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21 Aug 06 - 03:12 PM (#1815333) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Marje Will asks for "examples of West Gallery music that still exist in Britain, especially ones I could hear on the net?" http://www.wgma.org.uk/ (sorry I can't get the Blue Clicky thing to work) will show you that there's quite a number of active West Gallery choirs (or "quires" as they prefer to spell it) around in England today. That website may lead you to some sound-clips or examples. Marje |
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21 Aug 06 - 03:35 PM (#1815354) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST doesn't Jess A. also dance with Pecsaetan - probably the best women's morris side in Britain at the moment. See them dance and you'll appreciate how good and powerful morris can be..... |
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21 Aug 06 - 04:46 PM (#1815389) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Shimrod God!! How I hate the word 'Celtic' as applied to music. A woolly concept dreamed up by romantic nationalists and endorsed by marketing men - what a shitty mess!!! And before anyone objects I've got nothing against the Scots, the Irish, the Welsh, the Cornish, the Manx, the Bretons, the inhabitants of the Wester Isles or Patagonians for that matter. And I've got nothing against their respective, often brilliant, traditional musics - just don't use the stupid, lazy, ignorant term 'Celtic' - that's all!!! |
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21 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM (#1815423) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Tootler As a matter of interest (or not as you wish) The term "Quire" used by the West Gallery Association very likely came from the morning service or Mattins in the book of common prayer where, at one point there was a statement "In quires and places where they sing, here follows the anthem". i.e. a chance for the choir to show off <g> Solmisation referred to earlier is very old indeed. About 1000 years in fact. The system was devised by an Italian Monk, Guido d'Arezzo who was born around 995 CE. He used the first syllable of a hymn to St. John where each line started one note higher as an aid for teaching monks to chant the offices. Something like this Ut queant laxis Resonare fibris Mira gestorum Famuli tuorum Solve polluti Labi reatum Sante Johannes Thus we get Ut Re Mi Fa So La Si was added later from the initials of "Sante Johannes" (Remember in Mediaeval Latin, I and J were the same letter) In English we have replaced "Ut" with "Do", but the French and Italians still use "Ut" That we still use these syllables as an aid to singing is a remarkable testament to Guido's original idea. |
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21 Aug 06 - 08:39 PM (#1815606) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Azizi My compliments on a very interesting thread. May I go off topic for a moment and ask those who have problems with the use of the word "Celtic" to describe music if they also have problems with the use of that term in etymology {the study of name origins and meanings}. There are a number of websites on name origins & meanings that use the terms "Celtic"; or "Gaelic"; or "Celtic/Gaelic"; or "Irish Gaelic", or "Scottish Gaelic". Some websites use both "Irish" and "Irish Gaelic" or a website for Irish names uses the Gaelic term. See this example from http://www.ireland-information.com/heraldichall/irishboysnames.htm: Name: Liam Gaelic Equivalent: Liam Meaning/Origin: Gaelic form of William -snip- I'm confused. Is Irish Gaelic and Irish interchangeable terms? Or is "Irish Gaelic" older than "Irish"? I asking because I post information about name meanings on my website and I want to use the best citation for Irish and/or Scottish names. Which would you suggest I use? Also, here are two excerpts from a website that I found on http://www.answers.com/topic/scottish-gaelic-language "Scottish Gaelic ... Spoken in: Scotland, Canada Region: Scottish Highlands, Western Isles, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia; formerly all of mainland Scotland except the south-eastern part (parts of Lothian and Borders} ... Language family: Indo-European Celtic Insular Celtic Goidelic Scottish Gaelic" -snip- "Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig) is a member of the Goidelic branch of Celtic languages. This branch includes also the Irish and Manx variants. It is distinct from the Brythonic branch, which includes Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. Scottish, Manx and Irish Gaelic are all descended from Old Irish. The language is often described as Scottish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, or Gàidhlig to avoid confusion with the other two Goidelic languages. Outside of Scotland, it is sometimes also called Scottish or Scots. This usage is uncommon in Scotland, because in recent centuries the word Scots has by-and-large been transferred to the version of Middle English that had become the Scots language"... -snip- Do folks here agree with this information? And [returning this to a music theme] are there similarities between the traditional music found in Scotland and the Canadian provinces settled by Scottish people? Sorry for this interruption. Hopefully, this doesn't detract that much from the main discussion. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me to get a clearer understanding of the differences {if any} between these terms. Azizi |
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21 Aug 06 - 11:37 PM (#1815753) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Thanks Azizi, Obie's earlier post (20 Aug 06-9:45) helps to partly answer your Scottish/Canada question.Scottish people settled in several different provinces of Canada, but it was only in the eastern maritime provinces near the Atlantic Ocean that their traditional type of music survived in any significant way (especially Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia as I presently understand it).Islands near the Ocean have a tendency of helping to keeping traditions alive, whether it be the British Isles, Cape Breton or the Georgia Sea Islands in America (though not neccesarily in every case). Jess, Hi! **Not shure where in Canada you are but Mill Race Festival in Cambridge, Ontario often has English acts.** Thanks.I actually live pretty close, perhaps an hour away.It would be cool to see your band some day.Your band has a very enjoyable blend of voices and professionaly played instruments. Marjie, Thanks for the West Gallery clips.I look forward to hearing them. George, **Where in Canada? I'm in the Maritimes that you mentioned.I'm a born-Cape Bretoner! Still live in Nova Scotia.** As you probably know by now I'm from Ontario (maybe an hour and a half drive from the city of Toronto).I visited the Maritimes when I was a young kid, but have never been to Cape Breton yet.Someday I'd like to make it and see what it's all about. |
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21 Aug 06 - 11:54 PM (#1815762) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Greg Stephens, **I think the question is essentialy a bit meaningless.** I don't think my questions were meaningless myself.Not that your neccesariuly wrong in all your assessments.Your probably right in some of your critique.Would you atleast agree that people are much more likely to recognise certain types of Irish or Gaelic sounds then English sounds (which evidently arn't as popularised in culture)? **Have a listen to a couple of tracks, and tell me.Do they sound "Celtic"? or "Anglo-Saxon? or something else? And if so, what? Well to answer your question I'm gonna have to use the word "Celtic" which might upset some people in the process.I wasn't able to locate full length examples of your band yet, but I did manage to hear some short sampled parts of tracks.A few of the tracks sounded pretty "non Celtic" or "English" to me( A Trip to the Lakes, Robinsons, Stybarrow Crag), but "The Birds upon a Tree" and especialy "Carisle Reel" I very much notised what I perceived to be that "Celtic" sound or influence, a sound that helps to blur the boundries between Celtic & Non-Celtic.Just answering your question based on the tiny bits I heard, so hopefully nobody's stomache starts cringing in Celtic knots! |
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22 Aug 06 - 04:25 AM (#1815861) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: greg stephens Blind Will: the meaningless I referred to was in the essential basis of your discussion, which is the difference between Celtic music and English music. Now, that inplies that there are two categories of music, Celtic and English, that you can put certain pieces of music into. I disagree with the equivalence of the two categories: broadly speaking, my attitude to the term "Celtic music" is "there aint no such animal". This usage of the term celtic is based on the scholar who recognised and discussed the fact that there was a family of languages(Cornish, Irish, Scots gaekic etc) that had certain characteristics that distinguished them for teutonic languages(Englis, german, danish etc) and also from Romance languages(Latin, Spanish, French etc). Fine, a very valid bit of classification. But to extend this concept to the modern excesses of the term, when Galicia has become a Celtic speaking nation(oh yes???), when English speaking Ireland is Celtic but English speaking England is not, when certain English songs suddenly become "Celtic" overnight because Clannad has recorded them: at this point it becomes gibberish, and you wish the word has never been used. The whole of northwestern Europe(maybe the whole of northern Europe) used to speak Celtic languages. Now most of them dont. Interesting history, but not a necessarily useful basis for describing current cultural and musical differences. Abololish the word, I say. it causes more problems than it solves. (It is cognate with "Welsh", incidentally, and seems to mean "foreign"). |
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22 Aug 06 - 04:50 AM (#1815868) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Paul Burke And of course calling the music "Celtic" ignores that other homeland of diddleydiddley music, the decidedly Norwegian- influenced Shetland Isles. |
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22 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM (#1815873) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: sian, west wales Azizi, in a way your snippets have pointed out one of the main problems with the current usage of Celtic or Gaelic. The corporate marketing men have invaded them, and MADE them mean primarily 'Irish' with a nod in the direction of Scottish. But "Celtic" should refer to both the Goidelic and Brythonic branches. If people would use the term correctly, there would be no problem. But we've said this all before. Blind will, a teacher once told me MANY years ago (I was born & raised in Port Colborne, Niagara Penninsula) that there's no such thing as a stupid question. You wanted some info, so you ask. Well done, you. So now you know a lot more than you did before, and you'll probably learn from it, and start asking how English music compares to Irish or Scottish music, which is what you seem to actually want to know. You might then get some thread drift information on how it relates to Welsh, for example. And I will BET that you will then have people disagree with your use of 'English'! Cornwall was/is a Celtic nation; Cumbric was spoken in Cumbria which would have been part of the 'pre-urban society of Celtic Great Britain' (Wikipedia), and still feels more Celtic than Anglo to me. I nearly got stuck into this debate myself when Tootler, way up above, said "Elswhere in England place names are Anglo Saxon in origin. There are in fact very few place names in England which are Celtic in origin". Not if you go to Cornwall. Or Cumbria. Still, I thought that would drift the thread beyond acceptable boundaries. I know that Karen Tweed has said that she recognizes the difference between Irish/Scottish fiddle tunes and Welsh tunes when she plays them and, on more than one occasion, I've been correct in recognizing a tune as being for Welsh song ... so there is a distinguishable difference, and often a big one, within the Celtic (in it's correct sense) repertoire. I'm sure you'll take this all on board. sian |
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22 Aug 06 - 05:19 AM (#1815880) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,The wandering worker. While working in Somerset many years ago I had the pleasure to listen to an old farm worker singing, -The farmers boy-, I could have been in any pub in Ireland, the song would not be classed as `folk`, but the man and his singing I can still recall with pleasure. I also listened to a singer in Lincoln sing `Brigg Fair`, the singer and the song were fascinating as this was the first time I had heard this song, memories I recall with pleasure. Does it really matter where the song come from, certainly research the song, that to is rewarding,I love my own Irish music, but please enjoy the great variety of folk music no matter which part of the world it comes from, there is merit in all of our folk music. |
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22 Aug 06 - 06:40 AM (#1815906) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: treewind It's a bit like saying "what's the difference betwen an English accent and a Celtic accent" in speech. You can't answer that: you have to find a different question to ask. Seven languages mentioned in this thread*, regional dialects everywhere, and at least as much variation in the way traditional music is played and sung. Anahata --- * English, Irish and Scottish Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Cumbric. Not to mention the non-Gaelic "Scots" which is officially recognised as a language too... |
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22 Aug 06 - 06:52 AM (#1815913) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: sian, west wales Excellent comparison, Anahata. sian |
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22 Aug 06 - 07:27 AM (#1815933) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Bagpuss Azizi - you were asking about the relationships of different celtic languages. Briefly Celtic languages are a branch of Indo-european and descended from proto-celtic. There are 4 sub families: Gaulish and its close relatives, Lepontic and Galatian. These languages were once spoken in a wide arc from France to Turkey and from Belgium to northern Italy. Celtiberian, anciently spoken in the Iberian peninsula, namely in the areas of modern Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Aragón and León. (I think some of these languages may still be spoken locally, but I'm not sure) Goidelic, including Irish, Scots Gaelic, and Manx. Brythonic (also called Brittonic), including Welsh, Breton, Cornish, Cumbric, the hypothetical Ivernic, and Pictish. TThe last 2 groupings are the ones currently and previously spoken in Britain and Ireland and are often also called Q Celtic and P celtic respectively, but I'm not sure how the other 2 groupings fitted into that classification. Irish and Irish Gaelic are interchangeable terms - when writing about Gaelic you have to qualify whether you are talking about Scots or Irish Gaelic. Although spelt the same, and pretty closely related, the two are pronounced differently. Irish gaelic is Gay-lick and scots gaelic is Gah-Lick. Find out more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages Bagpuss |
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22 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM (#1815955) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Dave the Gnome Interesting aside - An old Scottish friend of mine never said he spoke Gaelic - he always refered to it as "havin' the gallick" Never found out why and unfortunately he is dead now:-( Anyone know? Cheers DtG |
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22 Aug 06 - 01:32 PM (#1816269) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Tabster Just to dip my spoon into the rich stew ... archaeologists are far from agreed about who/what/where the "Celts" were (think about it - every possible colouring of hair and eyes to go with white skin, every possible range of build) and there's mounting evidence to show that they probably didn't "invade" the island commonly known as Britain, either. Read Francis Prior on the subject, or look up a book called "The Atlantic Archipelago". Discovering Celtic artifacts here doesn't mean any more than that the islanders were traders and liked a bit of nice design, but you'll also quickly realise it's hard to disentangle Saxon and Viking art forms from "Celtic". So in terms of music the blanket terms of Celtic and English tend to wash over me with a faintly irritant effect. Here we quite like "Celtoid" or "Celtish" as a descriptor ...And I've grown used to being told that people can spot my "Celtic" roots in my songs. Haven't yet discovered many ancestors who could have contributed these roots, but hey, once I get over 200 years back who knows what I'll find? Anne |
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22 Aug 06 - 02:58 PM (#1816331) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: The Sandman well I dont care about differences,but all music whether its english or celtic should have one similiarity.It should be music, it should be able to convey emotions, and the performers should have respect for and like their material. Musicians and singers should not worship technical virtuosity for its own sake, but remember the old blues singers, who sang about how they felt, when they sang the blues. its a mistake to get lost on a trail of pan celtic or pan anglo saxon national identity .if asong is a good song it doesnt matter where it comes from America England Ireland or Timbuctoo. |
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22 Aug 06 - 06:36 PM (#1816499) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Azizi Thanks for those responses re those terms in used in etymology. I have a clearer understanding of the terms than I did before, and will continue reading on the subject. Positive vibrations, Azizi |
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22 Aug 06 - 11:41 PM (#1816686) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Sian, Yes I've defenitely learned from this thread, and despite disagreements over my terminology and sometimes misunderstandings of my own words, I have been given some good answers. I havn't been of the mindset that "Celtic" or "Celtic music" only refered to Ireland and Scotland (in a earlier post I mentioned hearing music from Spain & Scandanavia that was suppost to be Celtic).I have heard a little bit of music from Wales (harp music) that I have associated with the "C" label.It's just that the Irish/Scottish part is the main part I've been exposed to. Thanks for your thoughts. |
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23 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM (#1816718) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Hears some more thoughts... If I shouldn't use the term "Celtic" for music because it's not technically correct, what other term should I use for the collective music that is commonly known by that word? And what about other musical terms that arn't technically correct and/or misleading--like country & western (or country),new age,r&b,etc? For several years I have described Enya's overall style as Celtic-new age (more new age than Celtic), even though I know her music is technically not "new age" since it has nothing to do with the so called "New Age" religion.But since that is the only common word that is really used for that type of sound (and others with a similar sound or structure) that is the word I use.I wouldn't say "new age music" is a meaningless term since it actually does mean a certain type of music, but it's not technically correct of alot of music in that style.So how should I accurately classify Enya's music without using either the word "Celtic" or "new age"? Another reason that is given to discredit the term "Celtic music" is because it lumps to many different sounds together in one category.But the music that is commonly called "African" or "black African" (the term I prefer to use) lumps even more different types of music together, and includes music from a much wider area.Yet nobody seems to really discredit this music category for all the music it lumps together."Traditional Native Indian music" (or what some call First Nations) includes the music of this group of people from both North & South America and the Arctic.What I'm trying to say is that if "Celtic music" is to be a discredited category then it should only be on the basis of it being technically and culturally not correct, not because it's a "lumping category".But if we do that we should be consistent by not using other musical terms such as "country" or "country and western". Yet another argument is that "Celtic music" is just a marketing term that is often applied very loosely, thus making it meaningless.But most common terms for music styles and sounds are marketed to some degree or another.For instance the word "jazz" these days is often applied to easy listening sounds that have little to do with real jazz.Often the label "jazz" is applied to music that really isn't jazz.But this in itself does not make "jazz" a meaningless term.It just means it is being to loosely used. If using the word "British music" solves the problem of being culturally incorrect and divisive, it would make a even larger lumping category. |
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23 Aug 06 - 01:37 AM (#1816739) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Bert Hey Will, Seeing as I don't immediately recognize all the differences between English and Celtic Music, perhaps you would care to categorize the following tunes so that I know where you are coming from. Villikins and his Dinah Lili Bolero Irish Washerwoman Cathewsalem Rakes of Mallow Tom Pierce Wearing of the Green Devil's Dream |
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23 Aug 06 - 03:05 AM (#1816767) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: greg stephens You can use "Celtic music" if you like, or any other lumping together terms. The troubles arise from how you use the term. You can use a term like "world music" or "European music" any time you like, and it might be meaningful. But what kind of question would "what are the differences between World Music and European Music" be? Or how would you answer "Are there harmonic differences between European and French music?" Categorisation can produce absurdities if you are not careful, as in your question about differences between Celtic and English. |
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23 Aug 06 - 03:06 AM (#1816768) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Tabster For myself I don't feel a great need to categorise music, most of the time. For me, it's music, and if it moves me or excites me I tend to like it, and if it doesn't I don't. People ask me what kind of music I play as a quick way for them to make a snap decision about whether they'd like it or not - but I'd much prefer them to listen to it to make up their minds without a definition, as even if I said "Celtic and English but I write my own songs which tell stories and play guitar" that still doesn't actually convey the music. I like some music generally called classical, some blues, some country and western - but not all of any category. Mostly the categories are used for music shops to put CDs into browsers, but wouldn't we all be enriched if Beethoven nestled next to the Beatles and Blowzabella? As to World music, I've always been puzzled about why only certain geographic areas count as being in the world ...where are the rest of us? Anne |
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23 Aug 06 - 03:55 AM (#1816785) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Paul Burke "Celtic" I think we have established by now is meaningless when used to describe a kind of music. But that isn't to say that you can't hear different accents in music. Imagine for example versions of the same tune- for the sake of argument, let's say "Soldier's Joy"- and hear it played by - An Irish fiddler in the Coleman style - An Irish fiddler in Donegal style - An English dance band fiddler of the 60s generation - A Scottish fiddler - A Shetland fiddler - A Northumbrian fiddler - A Cape Breton fiddler - An Old Time fiddler.... (the list goes on) You would definitely be able to tell differences, though not always associate the single tune with its cultural origin(*). Over the course of, say, a record I think you would normally hear a trend develop (though this would often have to do with other clues like style of accompanyment) which would complete the picture. A student could (and probably has) develop a taxonomy of the styles, indicating possible developmental links which could be explored further by studying migration and trade patterns etc. I'll kick off with one possible linking influence- the fishing industry. The groups from the British Isles broadly fished the same waters, and could be expected to meet up socially on occasions. This would have disseminated tunes and instruments back into their communities, leaving them to develop in the local style. (*) Someone did have a project to examine perceived associations, though I thought it a bit half- cocked as they used strange tunes. Anyway, I've lost the link. |
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23 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM (#1817377) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: Tootler Another one is agriculture. There were always groups of migrant workers who either worked at specialist activities such as ploughing or sheep shearing, or who simply worked as casual labourers at times of peak activity, especially harvest time. In North East England in the late 19th/Early 20th century a lot of Irishmen came to work the fields at harvest time. They almost certainly brought their tunes with them as there are tunes of Irish origin in the Northumbrian repertoire. In some cases the tunes got renamed - the Boys of Bluehill becoming the Lads of North Tyne is a good example. Equally probable is that the Irish labourers took home a bunch of new tunes that they learned from the locals. |
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24 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM (#1818337) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST Hi Bert, I don't know where these songs originate.You probably know alot more about this subject than I do.But I think any of these tunes could be done in what I have (rightly or wrongly) considered "Celtic" style or "English" style.Some people would think it absurd that the song "Silent Night" (a melody of Austrian origin) could ever be a part of "Celtic" music repertoire, but this same tune has been done in a variety of other styles such as black gospel,country,crooning, and even punk and heavy metal.So there's alot that you can do with one tune, which might sound extremly different then the way it originated.(These Silent Night comments are partly a response to something that was said earlier here). Where am I coming from? I'm a North American who doesn't have first hand experience of British culture (unlike most people hear and perhaps yourself). |
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24 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM (#1818339) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will OOps! I thought I was still signed in.The last post by a "Guest" was actually by me if it's not abvious already. |
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24 Aug 06 - 09:56 PM (#1818342) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Greg, I see what your saying, though I'm not shure that my question totally compares to the examples you gave.As absurd as my questions may have seemed I have actually received some pretty good answers to them.So from my standpoint that's all that really matters. If your still interested in discussing the differences or similarities between different music on the British Isles/Northwest European, you are free to do so if you wish. |
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25 Aug 06 - 12:28 AM (#1818407) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: GUEST,Rowan When I first saw the thread title I resisted the urge to even look at it, predicting a fruitless discussion. Living in a place where the dominant culture is immigrant but resisting the ownership of some of the baggage that comes with being the dominant culture I see resonances in some of the discussion above. Even so, it's been really informative. But it took Paul Burke's post to lure me into contributing. He wrote "Imagine for example versions of the same tune- for the sake of argument, let's say "Soldier's Joy"- and hear it played by - An Irish fiddler in the Coleman style - An Irish fiddler in Donegal style - An English dance band fiddler of the 60s generation - A Scottish fiddler - A Shetland fiddler - A Northumbrian fiddler - A Cape Breton fiddler - An Old Time fiddler.... (the list goes on)" For at least the last 20 years or so I've used exactly the same list and for a very similar purpose, at least initially. I've been trying to get beginner players to really listen to the music they hear and that tune with that list is ideal for such a purpose. But back to the thread. In Australia I've been exposed to really good singers and instrumentalists from almost all the places mentioned above as Anglo-Saxon or Celtic and some that weren't (Balkan, Iranian etc). I've also been lucky enough to have heard many of the people mentioned above, 'live' as well as on records. And I've also been even luckier to be able to go to the places where the music mentioned has been regarded as endemic. In a multicultural place like Australia it's almost impossible to be emphatic about origins of a tune or a style or even a set of words, unless you can trace back to what our geneologists describe as 'the immigrant generation' and, even then, you usually get back to a context that is usually much more heterogeneous than classification can deal with. Melodies, styles, decorations, words, motifs are all memes and, like genes, get swapped around wherever and whenever transients gather. Lots of academics reckon that pattern analysis and classification is an esential part of the human condition, which is why we all do it. Sometimes fruitlessly. But there's lots of really good stuff that comes out of the woodwork when someone asks a 'stupid question'. Thank you Blind Will! Cheers, Rowan |
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25 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM (#1819106) Subject: RE: English music compared to Celtic music From: blind will Your welcome! |