Dublin man invents perpetual motion

28 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM (#1820820)
Subject: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: woodsie

Just been listening to BBC R4 programme where they were speaking to Sean McCarthy who claims to have perfected a process that will provide unlimited energy forever without the need for any fuel. He has challenged the world's scientists to test his invention and placed an ad in a national magazine (I think it was the economist) He claims that it will power anything from a mobile phone to a car. The system uses magnetic fields similar to an electric motor - but does not require connection to a power source!

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28 Aug 06 - 01:38 PM (#1820822)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Wesley S

Perhaps now we can send a man to Mars to hunt for those sea shells.

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28 Aug 06 - 01:44 PM (#1820825)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,Ray

So this thread is in the correct part of the board - I thought "Perpetual Motion" was invented/written by Paganini - Bill Keith once played it for me on five string banjo.

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28 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM (#1820833)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,Reilly

Well as the device has big implications for musicians.

e.g. Amps that do not need to be plugged in! Wow we can have an electric session in the middle of a field!

Ipods that go on forever etc.

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28 Aug 06 - 02:07 PM (#1820836)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bill D

mmm-hmmmmm...I wonder which fundamental law THIS guy has overlooked. I have seen a number of schemes based on magnetism, but they all missed something.

(I even knew personally a guy who made some money because his system of controlled magnets resembled pretty closely parts of the guidance system of some military rockets back in the late 60s. I think they bought him out for about $50,000)

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28 Aug 06 - 02:08 PM (#1820838)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Geoff Wallis

Hmm,

Anyone intrigued by the idea of creating energy out of thin air should read Rupert Goodwins' damning article on the subject of Steorn at http://www.zdnet.co.uk.

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28 Aug 06 - 02:09 PM (#1820839)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Rapparee

Down, down I say! To BS!

(this was reported on last week)

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28 Aug 06 - 02:15 PM (#1820847)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,johnmc

Initially, I thought this might be a reference to the Irish who have kissed the Blarney Stone.
   If the man becomes famous and they erect a statue in Dublin, can't wait for
the nickname ( a la Floosie in the Jacuzzi).

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28 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM (#1820866)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Nigel Parsons

Guest Johnmc:
Is that the same statue sometimes referred to as "The hooer in the sewer"?

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28 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM (#1820868)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,mg

It's a great day for the Irish. My father always told me the most famous inventor in the world was an Irishman named Patrick Pendleton and if you looked on cereal boxes and in advertisements for stuff you would see his name..Pat. Pending. mg

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28 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM (#1820887)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Greg B

Probably inspired by a session band trying to figure out
how to stop playing 'The Butterfly' or 'The Rocky Road
to Dublin Town.'

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28 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM (#1820979)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Grab

For convenience, that ZDNet link.

Graham.

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28 Aug 06 - 05:22 PM (#1821018)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: John O'L

I thought that up a couple of years ago for a novel I never wrote. Except my magnetic fields weren't real, they were computer-generated simulations. The trouble was that because they were only artificial, using them redirected real energy from where it was being naturally expended.
I guess Sean won't have that problem.

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28 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM (#1821059)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos

The coverage in the technical press is sparse but it seems to indicate he's serious about the challenge, anyway.


A

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28 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM (#1821065)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Peace

This idea is not new.

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28 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM (#1821068)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Peace

Here.

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28 Aug 06 - 07:48 PM (#1821138)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

There are fluids with special properties, including being susceptible to magnetism, and proving an almost frictionless surface while in the magnetic field.

Someone a while ago worked out that the correct designed gadget would produce power, not perpetual motion, but normal EM generated power converting input motion energy which works because of the low losses due to the fluid.

Some current (sorry!) applications include using wave motion to power sensor buoys.

Breaks no 'Laws of Nature'.

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28 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM (#1821188)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bert

If it uses magnets it can't be perpetual motion because magnets contain energy.

It should not be beyond the realms of possibility it devise a machine to extract that energy.
But when it is exhausted the machine would stop and the magnets have to be recharged.

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28 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM (#1821194)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

"If it uses magnets it can't be perpetual motion because magnets contain energy. "

Bzzzt! Wrong Answer! Not a scientific explanation!

The ENERGY output (electricity flowing in a circuit) comes ONLY from the input ENERGY of the MOTION causing a conductor to cut lines of magnetic force. The magnet loses no observable energy. (Ah! SOME magnets do lose their magnetism over Looooooooong periods of time, but that is another story!)

There is ENERGY CONVERSION!

If there in INPUT energy producing OUTPUT energy, this is normal science - but there will also be energy LOSSES in the transformation, generally observed as HEAT ENERGY.

"Perpetual Motion" claims that there are no energy losses, and that there is 100% energy conversion - this claim is WHY it is 'against the laws of science'.

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28 Aug 06 - 09:04 PM (#1821196)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

Even worse, one of the consequences of 'Perpetual Motion' when used as a 'generator' of energy, is that it would 'create energy' out of 'nothing' - and even quantum physics says that you can't do that, you can only CONVERT energy from one form to another, even if you have to break nuclear bonds to do it.

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28 Aug 06 - 09:16 PM (#1821204)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Richard Bridge

Referring to Peace's link, surely the difference in principle between the linear device shown (and stated to have been demonstrated) and the radial one is that in the radial one there will be magnetic fields from the diametrically opposite magnets that are likely (I haven't tried to do the maths) to negate the desired effect.

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28 Aug 06 - 09:26 PM (#1821213)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Creating energy out of nothing" - isn't that what the Big Bang is all supposed to have been about?

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28 Aug 06 - 09:42 PM (#1821219)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

No - the energy came out of a collision between two 'branes'. ('String Theory')

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28 Aug 06 - 09:54 PM (#1821227)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

If the moving magnet is 'moving' - where is the endless energy to make it constantly move coming from? That means that there is unaccounted for INPUT ENERGY in the system, and all the maths are wrong.

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28 Aug 06 - 11:50 PM (#1821321)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bert

Foolestroupe, I'll break your nuclear bonds if you ain't bloody careful *GRIN*

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29 Aug 06 - 03:34 AM (#1821420)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Richard Bridge

Foulestroupe, there is a difference between an initial motion, and a need for further input to maintain or increase motion.

However, on the face of things the device on Peace's link seems not to account for the fact that the device as shown contains conductors moving within magnetic fields, which will result in a counterforce (Fleming's right and left hand rules) although I cannot quantify those forces.

If, however, it did work, it looks as if it would accelerate for ever, thus at some point flying to pieces under centripetal/centrifugal force.

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29 Aug 06 - 03:37 AM (#1821421)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Paul Burke

Three possibilities only:

- Physics is wrong
- there's an unsuspected source of energy (e.g. some sort of cold fusion)
- The inventor is wrong.

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29 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM (#1821443)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,johnmc

Nigel
    I believe it is the same Anna Plurabel;
other one is, I've just remembered, "Prick with a stick".

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29 Aug 06 - 04:30 AM (#1821447)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,Albert Einstein

Listen mate, if I say it can't be done, IT CAN'T BE DONE OK.

Al

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29 Aug 06 - 05:46 AM (#1821474)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Wolfgang

History of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines

Modern inventors usually reject the term 'perpetual motion'. They prefer to talk about tapping energy sources not yet understood.
(R. Schadewald, Recent developments in perpetual motion, Skeptical Inquirer Winter 1980/81, S. 25)

Wolfgang

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29 Aug 06 - 07:24 AM (#1821513)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,The Ghost of Sir Isaac Newton

Oi! Einstein, SHUSH....I'm THINKING...

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29 Aug 06 - 07:56 AM (#1821525)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: robomatic

The typical perpetual-motion-device inventor is the source of the conversion of energy.

The energy takes the form of money out of an investor's pocket and converts it into the 'inventor's' bank account.

Perpetual motion has become something of a loaded term and the more recent technospeak I've heard is the 'over unity' device, the over unity part being that output energy is greater than input energy, hence the ratio would be greater than one or 'over unity'.

Tain't none of it true.

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29 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM (#1821564)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Grab

The term "overunity" simply depends on what you consider the boundaries of your system to be. For example, if your boundary is the box containing your widget, then a solar panel on the box would make it an overunity device. The problem is that when you set your boundary as the universe, it becomes abundantly clear that you've got yourself an extra source of energy.

That's the problem with this thing. If it works, then the energy's coming from somewhere. That means it's only "overunity" in their not-very-well-thought-out environment.

Oh and Peace, that magnetic "motor" thing ain't going to work. It's principle can be illustrated as follows: "You sit on a swing, and the swing's ropes are tied loosely so they can rotate round the top beam. I push you hard. You fly over the top, then gravity pulls you down the other side, then you go over the top again and gravity will pull you down the other side again, and so on. Because gravity keeps pulling you down after you've gone over the top, you'll go on spinning round and round, faster and faster, for ever." Explaining why this ain't so is left as an exercise for the reader with more than half a functioning brain and less than half a non-functioning level of credulity... ;-)

Graham.

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29 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM (#1821565)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

"If, however, it did work, it looks as if it would accelerate for ever, thus at some point flying to pieces under centripetal/centrifugal force."

Only 3 real choices

1) energy out = energy in - 0, thus the system would be stable in the current state of motion it is. Only thing wrong with this is that there can be no energy losses, eg friction, etc - and THAT would be a significant invention in itself.

2) energy in > energy out - well.... it won't run for very long if you stop putting energy in then...

3) energy out > energy in - well that's sorta what seems to happen with a 'nuclear runaway' i.e. explosion... unless it is 'moderated' or controlled, but in that case we KNOW that there is a known type of energy conversion taking place.

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29 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM (#1821568)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos

He des not claim perpetual motion. He states that his team has developed an over-unity device (output energy is more than 100% of input energy).

This is either some really stretched-out PR gimmick, for obscure purpose, or he believes it. I'd take him up on it.

A

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29 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM (#1822159)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: robomatic

FGS Amos read a few posts that preceded your own. over unity means now PRECISELY what perpetual motion used to mean. Something for nothin'.

TANSTAAFL big fella!

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29 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM (#1822169)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

"I'd take him up on it."

Long as you don't give him any money.


For just the ridiculously low one off price of US$100,000 I can sell you the details of a process that turns dog turds into gold...

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29 Aug 06 - 07:18 PM (#1822176)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

... I send you dog turds, you send me gold...

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29 Aug 06 - 07:53 PM (#1822204)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos

Tell ya what -- I'll send you the dog turds and when you get them turned to gold, send half of them back.

Obviously over-unity is the only possible means for actually achieving what used to be called perpetual motion, but they ain't the same thing. BEsides, parts wear out.

Believe me I understand the concern about not believing in something that violates the conservation of energy and the general laws of thermodynamics.

The reason there is still some hope out there is that absolute entropy only characterizes closed systems. For the last several hundred years we have grown to believe that material space-time is such a system, unless you want to invoke divinity or some such.

But there is good evidence now that the edges of the continuum are volatile, that particles come into and out of existence and quite a clip, and that there may also be dimensions involved in the real mechanisms of spacetime that we wot not of.

So let us not be too arrogant here. If this bloke is going to be hung by his own petard, I am quite content to let it happen; but at another level I have my fingers crossed.

A

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29 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM (#1822212)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe

"I'll send you the dog turds and when you get them turned to gold, send half of them back."

Sorry, I said it first... :-0

"but at another level I have my fingers crossed."

Me too. Hope springs eternal.

There's one born every minute, too....

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29 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM (#1822223)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bill D

Thank you, Wolfgang, for the link....which leads to many pages of the history and science of this futile pursuit! And to the many hilarious attempts which are worth viewing for the laughs!

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29 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM (#1822232)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST

This is like a debate 400 hundred years ago when all we have now did'nt exist, it was called witchcraft. Or when H G Wells wrote the shape of things to come, helicopters, televisions NEVER.

    OPEN YOUR MINDS.   TY Cobble.

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29 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM (#1822234)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: robomatic

The Stanley Meyers reference in that link reminded me that one of the Meyers pamphlets made it to an acquaintance of mine who asked me to have a physicist check it out, the physicist being my father. It was an entertaining but entirely ridiculous diatribe about how hitting a resonant frequency would shake the O in water away from the H2 without using all that energy required for hydrolysis. Then you could burn the H2 and power your (in this case) golfcart. I believe my acquaintance invested anyway, in spite of our warnings, and wasted even more money trying to sue Meyers.

In the context of fraudsters trying to raise money, "over Unity" is a loaded term, and differs from perpetual motion only in sounding more modern. All the other supposed 'meanings' of the term come from terminology in engineering which refer to efficiency, and there indeed you have to be very specific as to what is meant by energy going in and energy coming out, but in regular engineering you don't have 'over unity'.

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29 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM (#1822293)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos

I've often wondered whether atomic bonds were susceptible to any particular resonant frequency. It seems so reasonable!! LOL!! I doubt it is a frequency you'd be able to generate without a lot of energy, though.

Then there's always the miracle of sonoluminescence, which also LOOKS like a break-out phenomenon, but is not.

A

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29 Aug 06 - 10:58 PM (#1822302)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,sorefingers

The beer pump at the local Gargle and Spit! Never a dull moment.

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29 Aug 06 - 11:16 PM (#1822323)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Keef

This exact same system featured in Popular Mechanics about 20 years ago.
The authors claimed to have produced a working motor that powered a 4 wheel drive by free energy. I don't think it was April 1st but I was intrigued enough to waste a few hours with a supply of button magnets.
Did it work?
Sadly not.
It is what is known in scientific terminology as..........









COMPLETE BOLLOCKS!

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29 Aug 06 - 11:55 PM (#1822349)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos

Here's the critical article from ZDNet UK which doesn't really fill any holes as much as point out where they probably are.

A

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30 Aug 06 - 05:59 AM (#1822501)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Liz the Squeak

You want perpetual motion? Get a hyperactive toddler and a small dog.....

LTS

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30 Aug 06 - 06:49 AM (#1822522)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: jonm

From the title, the thought that crossed my mind was:

Liffey water - brewing process - Guinness - drink - pee - back into the Liffey...

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30 Aug 06 - 07:07 AM (#1822529)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Leadfingers

It is well known 'law' that a piece of buttered toast when dropped will ALWAYS land buttered side down .

It is also a known 'law' that a falling cat will ALWAYS land on its feet .

Secure slice of toast to cats back , drop cat from great height - Result - Perpetual Motion !!

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30 Aug 06 - 08:40 AM (#1822599)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Grab

Guest "Ty Cobble", yes indeedy, it's very like witchcraft. All thos witchcraft cases, where people claim that so-and-so turned into a dog or some other animal, or flew across the sky on a broomstick. All those witchcraft stories were total rubbish, and so is this.

Maybe you meant alchemy? In which case I'd remind you of all those people who spent their lives searching for the Philosopher's Stone which would produce the Elixir of Life, or trying to turn lead into gold via chemical reactions. Again, total rubbish.

"Ty Cobble" appears to be spouting cobblers...

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30 Aug 06 - 06:08 PM (#1823031)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bill D

attached toast to cat...attached wire to cat's tail, leading to light bulb....dropped cat from top of house onto trampoline. Cat bounced once, was picked off in mid-bounce by flock of crows with a taste for toast and after toast was gone, cat has been hiding under house for 6 hours now and I am sweeping up pieces of broken light bulb.....what did I do wrong?

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31 Aug 06 - 04:17 AM (#1823319)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Liz the Squeak

I tried that too... the cat ate the toast and electrocuted itself.

LTS

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31 Aug 06 - 04:34 AM (#1823327)
Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Paul Burke

What's perpetual motion got to do with dog turds? Surely they are intermittent motion, unless you've got a very sick dog?

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