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01 Mar 99 - 02:37 PM (#60889) Subject: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber ????? From: Joshua Kane - I have long enjoyed the folksong "the Arbutus" which appears on Gordon Bok's CD "Return to the Land" I am trying to track down the authorship of the piece as well as a copy of sheet music for it. In the liner notes for the CD they list the authorship as Trad/ Graber, which I assume means the text is a traditional piece of unknown origins and the tune or it's arrangement is being credited to someone named Graber or Grater if the search engine odf this site is correct. Maybe I even have it backwards. any help with info on the origins of the oiece and where I ccan find a copy of music for it would be appreciated. I can be reached at JoshuaKane@aol.com Thanks in advance. Click for lyrics in Digital Tradition |
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01 Mar 99 - 03:59 PM (#60896) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Barbara I'd bet that's Paddy Graber, and he's capable of supplying either the tune or the words, or both. |
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01 Mar 99 - 04:34 PM (#60901) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: MMario I have been told that some music publishers will also use trad/{name} to indicate a known composer whose work is now public domain. Usually with lesser known. This came up during a discussion of copyright at a studio - how true it is, I don't know MMario |
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01 Mar 99 - 11:00 PM (#60953) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: mountain time I posted a thread request several months ago asking for a song I sang years ago with the words "trailing arbutis" a clinging southern USA vine in it. No response. I am wondering if this is the same song. I was under the aged impression the A. P. Carter Family might have recorded it. I have asked Bill Clifton, Benny & Vallie Cain, Lee Moore, Red Rector and others but none remembered the song. |
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02 Mar 99 - 01:35 AM (#60974) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Barbara mountain thyme, it's the story of a royal young woman, promised by her father to a rich man, who is forced to strip before everyone to be checked for her maidenhood, after she vows love for a commoner. She is transformed into an arbutus, and the young man into - something else - the wind? or is it another tree in this one? I don't recall. The tape is around someplace. I'll look later. Is that the song you want? Blessings, Barbara |
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02 Mar 99 - 10:33 PM (#61107) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Sandy Paton Gordon Bok was told that the text was traditional (or p.d.) and that Graber gave it the tune. We took his word for it. Is that information correct, Barbara? Sandy |
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03 Mar 99 - 04:29 AM (#61134) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Barbara Good question, Sandy. I know Gordon and Paddy have been corresponding, and I know Paddy Graber is an incredible gold mine of words and tunes. I'll check with Paddy and get back to you on that. Blessings, Barbara |
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03 Mar 99 - 04:46 AM (#61136) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Jon Bartlett I always understood from Paddy that he wrote it. Our Archives (Vancouver Folk Song Society) has 5 recordings of it, 4 by PG and one by the late lamented John Dwyer. Paddys' earliest singing of it is dated 19 June 1974. |
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03 Mar 99 - 04:50 AM (#61137) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Jon Bartlett Sorry, I should have added that it's a reworking of Child 100 - "Willie o Winsbury". |
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03 Mar 99 - 12:22 PM (#61161) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: I would love to know if either the words or the tune are in Public domain as i wish to record it on an upcoming cassette of poetry and song. If the rights for either the tune or words are held. Yhen I would appreciate knowing who to contact for permissions as well as where i can locate a copy of the music Many thanks Joshua Kane |
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03 Mar 99 - 06:30 PM (#61182) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: mountain tyme Thanks for the try Barbara. No this song story is not what I was looking for. I seem to remember the lyric being the dream of a Civil War lads love back home and how they had entwined before the conflict as he awakes under the Arbutis after being wounded. |
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29 Mar 01 - 02:32 PM (#428603) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: hesperis Tune? |
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11 Nov 01 - 09:36 PM (#590536) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Joe Offer I'm wondering if the story of the Arbutus is strictly the invention of Paddy Graber, or is it a traditional story that Graber tied to Willie O Winsbury? I discovered an arbutus tree in my fiancee's yard and I told her the story from this song. I thought it was traditional folklore, but maybe it isn't. Where does the Arbutus story come from? -Joe Offer- |
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11 Nov 01 - 10:25 PM (#590550) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas I don't think Graber based it on any specific story, though people used to turn into trees all the time in the old days; a nasty habit which is rather discouraged nowadays. I suspect that he was thinking of A.P. Graves' My Love's an Arbutus, though I could easily be wrong. The Willie of Winsbury story is just a starting point, and scarcely a word of any traditional text is retained in his song so far as I can tell. We're still looking for the tune for the DT, incidentally; can anybody tell us what it was? I referred some time ago to the best-known (nowadays) Willie of Winsbury tune as a possible composition of Andy Irvine's, but I had only partly remembered the story; in fact, he set a text he found in a book (unspecified) to a tune from an unspecified "book of ballads" for a record he made with Anne Briggs, and only realised when it was too late that he'd been looking at the wrong page. I did a bit of research a while ago, and discovered that the book was (hardly surprisingly) Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads, and the tune really belonged to Fause Foodrage; the tune for Willie was on the next page but one. Nobody seems to have realised that at the time (and I've never seen anybody make the point since, for that matter) so it's perfectly possible that Graber may have used that tune under the impression that it was appropriate; alternatively, he may have made up a completely different one of his own. Somebody please tell us! |
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11 Nov 01 - 10:42 PM (#590560) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Deckman I will contact the late John Dwyers daughter and ask if she has any informatin about this. I well remember John singing this ballad. CHEERS, Bob |
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11 Nov 01 - 11:36 PM (#590580) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas Joe has kindly sent me a sound file of Gordon Bok's recording, and it's the Fause Foodrage tune that I suspected, only very slightly modified. I'll work up a midi for the DT file. |
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11 Nov 01 - 11:46 PM (#590584) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Deckman To Jon Bartlett ... I last saw Paddy Grabber 2 or 3 years ago at The Northwest Folkife Festival (known locally as the Seattle forklift festival)! Last I heard he was living in Surray, B.C. Could you get in touch with him to chase this saga down? CHEERS, Bob Nelson, Everett, Wa. |
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12 Nov 01 - 12:12 AM (#590589) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: GUEST,Susy John Dwyer got it from Paddy Graber and always said it was a relative of Will O' Winsbery. John sang it to Gordon Bok and was very unhappy with the way Gordon chose to record it. He preferred it the way he sang it, as a simple ballad. Paddy Graber will probably be at Seattle Song Circle's Rainy Camp in February and could be asked then either in person or by a letter addressed to Song Circle via Seattle Folklore Society. |
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12 Nov 01 - 12:13 PM (#590858) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Stewart I have a tape from Paddy Graber on which he sings the Arbutus. Paddy has told me, and he also says on the tape, that it is a song his mother used to sing at home in Co Kerry. I could try and transcribe the tune. I just listened to it now, and some of what Paddy sings is more spoken, so I'll have to work on it. S. in Seattle
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12 Nov 01 - 12:56 PM (#590888) Subject: Lyr Add: THE ARBUTUS (Paddy Graber)^^^ From: Stewart Here are the lyrics. Later I'll work on the tune.
THE ARBUTUS S. in Seattle^^^
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12 Nov 01 - 03:34 PM (#591004) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Joe Offer The version in the Digital Tradition is only slightly different. I think it's probably a transcription from Gordon Bok's recording. I think I'll submit the Graber version also and see what Dick wants to do with it. Any corrections or other information you can give us, Stewart? Are there other sources for the "Arbutus" version of Child 100, or is Graber the only source? -Joe Offer- |
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12 Nov 01 - 04:46 PM (#591064) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas Well, this is certainly getting confusing. As I said earlier, the Fause Foodrage tune that Andy Irvine fitted by accident to Willie o' Winsbury is the tune used by Gordon Bok for Arbutus. Prior to 1971, when Anne Briggs recorded Willie to the tune supplied by Irvine, it seems pretty unlikely that it would have been used by anyone else for a Winsbury variant, or for a song based on it; tunes found in tradition for the Child #100 family bear no resemblance to it. Of course, Paddy Graber doesn't seem to have sung the song before 1974; did he use that tune, or another? We now have two different accounts of its origin, both apparently from Mr. Graber (the only source for this song); I'd guess that further speculation on that front is fairly pointless until somebody can ask him directly, though on the face of it it seems unlikely to be a traditional song as such. I've made a provisional midi from the Bok recording; heaven knows what the time-signature ought to be (my musical theory is very rudimentary) but it's recognisable enough. Would Stewart confirm whether or not Paddy Graber used the same tune? I'm not at present concerned if it's exactly right or not, just trying to establish a general correspondence. |
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12 Nov 01 - 05:20 PM (#591095) Subject: Lyr Add: THE ARBUTUS TREE (Paddy Graber) From: Stewart Well, I rechecked my transcription of the lyrics from Paddy and compared to those in the DT (I don't know why I didn't look it up in the DT earlier) and have just a few corrections, so I'll post the corrected version below. I also transcribed Paddy's talking about the song that I have on his tape. Paddy still talks with a nice Irish accent (not too thick) and is a delightful story-teller. Here is his background on the song: "One of the songs I often heard my mother sing was The Arbutus Tree. Now, in and around our home, there's rocks and boulders, trees and old buildings, and in fact almost anything that you could possibly think of. There's songs and stories and poems made about them, usually to pass on a thought or concept, or to explain how they came about. And the arbutus tree, in the States it's known as the madrona, but in Ireland and also here in Canada it's known as the arbutus. The arbutus sheds it's bark the whole year round, and of course there has to be a reason for it. And we used to have an arbutus tree on our farm in Kilkeen (sp?), County Kerry. And it has to grow on very, very rocky soil, usually on an outcrop, and the sea breeze has to blow through the branches to be able to make it work, or at least make it grow halfway decently. Anyway, this is the song that explains how it came to be." Paddy Graber, Vacouver, B.C. Canada.
THE ARBUTUS TREE Malcolm, The tune Paddy used is similar, but slightly different, from the tune you posted. Certainly they are related. I'll transcribe Paddy's tune and post it later. I'm sure Paddy's song goes back a long time. Most of his songs, he tells me, are versions that were in his family, at least in the early 1900's if not earlier. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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12 Nov 01 - 05:46 PM (#591115) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas Thanks for that, Stewart. Mind you, I'm even more puzzled, now; this sort of coincidence is vanishingly rare. The tune Andy Irvine grafted onto Willie was a Scottish one belonging to a completely different song (from Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs of 1876-81) and how it came to be in Paddy Graber's family attached to a song based on Willie (and incorporating a plot development never found in any other version) prior to Irvine's involvement is rather a mystery. I'm not doubting Mr. Graber, but it all seems very odd. |
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12 Nov 01 - 06:58 PM (#591179) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Stewart OK, here's the tune I transcribed from Paddy Graber's singing of The Arbutus CLICK HERE. And the nwc file with the first verse CLICK HERE. The end of the second phrase is a little muddled because Paddy half speaks/sings it there. But it is certainly a variant of Malcolm's tune. I'll be seeing Paddy again at Rainy Camp around the 1st of Feb and will ask him about it then. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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12 Nov 01 - 07:28 PM (#591201) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Deckman Thanks for all your work Stewart ...and please tell Paddy "HOWDY" for me. CHEERS, Bob, up in Everett |
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13 Nov 01 - 07:58 AM (#591472) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Barbara That Paddy is a character and a raconteur is not in doubt. I have long suspected that he is perfectly capable of making up both a song and a story about it. It's part of the his tradition, isn't it? I have heard him sing a song that he claims is a couple hundred years old about something terrible that happens to a kosher sporran (something like that), and how likely is either the song or the story to be true? I have also tried to fit together all the various things he tells about his personal history and make them match world history without much luck. Would the man be bending the facts for to make a good tale? It seems possible. Also, he is up in years -- I think he says he's pushing 90 -- and the stroke a couple years back has affected his ability to remember songs and tunes. He is a gold mine of words and tunes, and he can talk both hind legs off a donkey, this slightly built, childlike man with a cane, a bad eye and an amazing ability to do bird calls. I often find myself making excuses to get away. I expect to be at Rainy Camp this year, too, so I'll see you all then. Blessings, Barbara |
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06 Jan 02 - 12:57 PM (#622179) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Alice I'm thoroughly confused by this thread - is the tune in the DT that is under the title Willie O' Winsbury the same as Arbutus, or not? Why is Arbutus still listed as Child #100 ballad if the tune is different? |
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06 Jan 02 - 03:14 PM (#622250) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Don Firth Alice, the tune that Paddy Graber sings is not the same one that's attached to Willie of Winsbury in the DT. If you listen to the links posted by Malcolm Douglas (12-Nov-01 - 04:46 PM ) and Stewart (12-Nov-01 - 04:46 PM), and sort of split the difference, you'll have it pretty close. When Paddy sings it, he occasionally varies a note or two here and there. Child numbers are based, not on the tune, but on the basic story line, leaving room for what may appear at first glance to be substantial differences. When Child put a group of ballads under the same number, it was because he had concluded after thorough analysis that they were all variations that had sprung from a common source. Hence, Lord Randal, Jimmy Randall, Wee Croodlin' Doo, and (believe it or not!) Billie Boy (a parody) are all Child #12. A friend of mine did a research paper on Lord Randal and found over 1,013 different versions, all telling the same basic story and containing many of the same elements (e.g.question and answer dialog, with at least one line ending with the word "mother"). He found variations all over Europe, in the Middle East, and on down to North Africa, in many different languages. Some of the old ballads really got around. Don Firth |
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06 Jan 02 - 04:11 PM (#622280) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Stewart It seems the link I posted above to the midi has morphed and no longer works. So here's a link to my web page posting of Arbutus which contains a link to the midi here. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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06 Jan 02 - 07:23 PM (#622398) Subject: Tune Add: THE ARBUTUS (Paddy Graber) From: Joe Offer And here's Stewart's MIDI in MIDItext -Joe Offer- MIDI file: ARBUTUS.MID Timebase: 192 Name: The Arbutus This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the latest version of MIDItext and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X:1
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06 Jan 02 - 07:36 PM (#622406) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Alice Yes, Don, I understand about variations of songs having the same number in the Child ballads. My question is regarding the use of the "Fause Foodrage", as Malcolm pointed out (his post of 12/Nov/01). When I tried the link posted earlier, it didn't work any more, so that is one reason I refreshed the thread. Alice |
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06 Jan 02 - 09:04 PM (#622455) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas With all due respect to Paddy, I can't believe his story about this song, given what we know so far. I'd be grateful for anything he might care to add to this discussion, particularly if it clears up the confusion we face at present. If I am wrong, I would be glad to know it; if I am not, it would be good to have the truth on record. |
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07 Jan 02 - 08:26 AM (#622647) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: GUEST,robinia Just to add to the mystique of the song. When I first came to Seattle, I was very taken with Discovery Park and the nude young woman artistically perched in one of its bluffside madrona (arbutus) trees. She explained that she was posing for her boyfriend and got tired of climbing down every time a walker appeared; so she stayed put while we talked and discovered that we'd both moved to Seattle from Pittsburgh... She'd never heard the ballad or the story of the maiden turned into arbutus tree; she'd just picked the perfect tree. So now, when I hear the song, I think of the legend ... and how beautifully a natural redhead can fit into the sinuous limbs of a full-grown madrona (which sheds red bark to bare a smooth pea-green "skin"). I hope her boyfriend got some good shots; it was a lovely picture... |
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16 Jan 02 - 08:25 AM (#628908) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: GUEST,del@unb.ca My mother remembers an old song with the a line something like this- my loves an arbutus by the borders of leen. Does anyone have any idea what the name of the song is. I'm interested in getting the lyrics for the whole song. Thank sDebbie |
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16 Jan 02 - 10:16 AM (#628952) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas That's My Love's an Arbutus, a poem by A.P Graves, set to a traditional tune the name of which I foreget. If nobody deals with it meanwhile, I'll see to it when I have a chance. |
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16 Jan 02 - 01:58 PM (#629100) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Stilly River Sage Bob, Don, et al, I remember Dad's singing this song, and I remember his interest in the work of Bok, but Susy is the best source on how the two mingled. I have boxes and boxes of words and tapes and albums that have yet to be opened and organized. Soon, very soon. . . Say "hi!" to Paddy for me, one of you, at Rainy Camp. Maggie |
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23 Jun 04 - 08:45 PM (#1213258) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: GUEST I was listening to a double CD "Troubadours of Folk" yesterday and one of the songs is called "Willie of Winsbury" by Sweeneys Men, sung I think by Andy Irvine, later of Planxty. I recognised it as the same tune used for "Farewell Farewell" written by Richard Thompson of Fairport Convention, which appeared on the Fairport album "Liege and Lief" and was sung by the late Sandy Denny (who also sings a nice version of the gospel "This Train" on the Troubadours CD. Apparently Liege and Lief was released in 1969 so it predates Paddy Grabers 1974 tune. Concerning the Arbutus, last week (17th and 18th June) I saw the Arbutus (or "Strawberry Tree") around the Lakes of Killarney, Co. Kerry, in the Republic of Ireland. In the British Isles it only grows as a native in parts of Kerry (chiefly the Killarney Lakes and nearby hills), parts of West Cork, and near Lough Gill in Co. Sligo. Otherwise it is associated with SW Europe. It is also sometimes planted in parks and arboretums and may sometimes escape from cultivation as in North Wales and parts of Southern England. It can be recognised from quite a distance by the bright green glossy foliage, somewhat resembling a willow (it is also about the size of a largish willow tree). Very unusually for a tree it flowers in autumn, and the somewhat strawberry-like fruits form through the winter and next spring; I saw several fruits myself. The specific Latin name, "unedo" means "I eat (only) one", indicating that one fruit is enough. It seems to prefer rocky areas though is indifferent to acid (eg granote or sandstone) or alkaline (limestone) soils, though it seems to prefer the lower lying more sheltered areas and avoids exposed hillsides. Apparently it was more common in Ireland several centuries ago but declined due to its use for charcoal (apparently their is a place name in Co. Mayo which indicates the former presence of Arbutus, this forming a link between the nearby Lough Gill in Sligo and the much more distant sites in Kerry, etc. As far as I remember there were no Nude ladies (!!!) in the branches of the Arbutus trees I saw, though I was looking mostly for 2 rare dragonflies which occur at Killarney, 1 of which occurs nowhere else in Ireland and the other probably only occuring at 1 site in Co. Cork. Although I was unsuccessful at seeing either species in Killarney, I did see the latter species at the Co. Cork site. Someone mentioned their mother knowing of a song with the line "My love's an Arbutus by the borders of Leen". Possibly there is some connection with Lough Leane (also known as the Lower Lake of Killarney, where the Arbutus also grows). Apparently though the name Leane may be derived from a person who mined copper, etc, in the area. There are the remains of a Bronze Age Copper Mine on Ross Island in the Lower Lake where Copper and other metals were mined from about 4000 years ago (and also commerically for some years until the earlier part of the 19th century). Perhaps as a result of the minerals, 2 characteristic seaside plants, Sea Pink (Thrift) and Sea Campion, grow around the area of the old mines, which are otherwise rare or unknown inland though common on the coast. Here endeth the (Botany) lesson. Anyway, it is a lovely if sad tune. |
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23 Jun 04 - 09:36 PM (#1213275) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas I've explained in this thread (or another; there are several on the subject) that the tune Andy Irvine used for Willy of Winsbury really belonged to a completely different song: Fause Foudrage. It is a Scottish tune; he inadvertently copied it from the wrong page in Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads. It doesn't belong, traditionally, to Willy at all. I don't for a minute believe Paddy Graber's claim that he learned Arbutus from his mother; and especially not to that tune. I'm pretty sure that he made it up all by himself; but it appears that he won't say, which is a pity; it isn't bad work. The other Arbutus referred to was written by Alfred Percival Graves, to a traditional Irish melody; but that, too, has been gone into in detail elsewhere, and the information can easily be found via the onsite search engine. |
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23 Jun 04 - 09:49 PM (#1213277) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Stewart Paddy Graber has recorded this song, The Arbutus, with commentary on his new CD "Paddy Graber - The Craic Was Great." More information is HERE. You can judge for yourself. Personally, I find it a very nice song, regardless of where it comes from. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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24 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM (#1213433) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: GUEST Fause Foodrage - sounds like a psychosomatic ailment? I wonder whether the poet Alfred Perceval Graves mentioned above was related to the poet Robert Graves? The reason I say this is I know that the latter was the half brother of Philip Perceval Graves, a journalist (responsible apparently for the uncovering of the Antisemitic "Protocols of (The Learned Elders of) Zion" as a forgery by Russian (Tsarist era) police thugh apparently based on an earlier Antimasonic tract from Napoleonic times). Philip P. Graves was I think from Co. Kerry, home of the Arbutus tree in Ireland and was also known as an entomologist ("Bug Hunter" to Mudcatters). |
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24 Jun 04 - 08:04 PM (#1213847) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: semi-submersible More botany: Some of my neighbours in SW British Columbia observed that if you try to transplant a small Arbutus menzeisii, you need to make sure you replant it with the same compass orientation. I guess it is a shock for an observant young tree to find the sun suddenly shining from the wrong side... |
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24 Jun 04 - 09:56 PM (#1213885) Subject: RE: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: Malcolm Douglas Alfred Percival Graves was Robert's father. A century ago he was very well known indeed. |
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20 Aug 04 - 07:44 PM (#1252561) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: kendall There are some questions about this song, one of them is; how did the king swear she was a virgin, and how did his chiefs know to agree? Can't imagine a father acting like that, He'd be locked up today! |
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20 Aug 04 - 08:04 PM (#1252578) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Arbutus - Grater or Graber From: GUEST Minor correction - Philip Perceval Graves was from Ballylickey near Bantry, Co. Cork, though he certainly did visit Co. Kerry as a naturalist. The Arbutus also grows in West Cork near Glengarriff, where I have seen it. |