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02 Sep 06 - 01:00 PM (#1825453) Subject: Folklore: What's in a Name From: sian, west wales I've been poking around the family background (and getting more and more confused) and had the Spatial Literacy suggested to me. Great fun! I think this 'fits' under folklore. I've tried a few famous folkie names (like Phil Tanner) and I imagine people here can think of a few too. sian |
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02 Sep 06 - 08:32 PM (#1825663) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: katlaughing sian, thanks for the link! I found out that all of the names in my ancestry have lost in numbers and are fairly rare, one even didn't show up at all in "occurence" nowadays. You'd think that would make it easier to research, but it doesn't! Thanks, again! kat |
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03 Sep 06 - 09:17 AM (#1825882) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: sian, west wales Azizi, that's interesting. I haven't really delved into the site too deeply yet but may give it more attention later today. Didn't we discuss Black dispersal in the UK in some other thread? I know there was a programme on our television not too long ago about Black populations in Wales and I seem to recall that Cardiff had one of the first sizeable communities. There was also a programme about Welsh in the American Revolutions a couple of years ago which looked at the earliest Welsh migrations to the USA and the number of Welsh who managed estates in the South. And why so many Black Americans have Welsh surnames. Andrew Jackson was Welsh ... I hope the moderator takes your comments on board. Kat, also interesting. The name I was initially researching (Rovery) behaved pretty much as I was expecting it to. sian |
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03 Sep 06 - 10:58 AM (#1825941) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Azizi Sian, yes, we have talked before about this subject. The information you have shared then and now is quite interesting-not that I think I have any Welsh ancestry, but just for general principal... With regards to that website, for some reason I could not get the email feature on that website to function. I tried copying that address and using my email service, but the message came back two times. If you planned on emailing that site or if you want to try, would you consider including my query {whether they have a category for Black people from the Caribbeans or the USA or Canada or if those populations are included in the Black African category}. If not, it's fine. It would have been interesting for folks to have this resource, but it's not essential... Thanks again, Azizi |
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03 Sep 06 - 06:14 PM (#1826184) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Manitas_at_home I don't remember seeing a category of Black American on the last census form which would mean that the information is not available to the website's compilers. I think there is an Other category but that's not too helpful for your purposes either. |
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03 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM (#1826193) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Leadfingers The percentage of people on the UK census who's origin is 'Black American' must be fairly small after all !! Most of our 'black' residents are from the Caribbean , after all ! |
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03 Sep 06 - 06:38 PM (#1826204) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Manitas_at_home Or rather their parents and grand-parents are! |
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03 Sep 06 - 06:55 PM (#1826214) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Azizi Clarification-perhaps I overlooked it, but I wasn't sure which category in that frequency ethnicity chart that Black people from the United Kingdom who are not from Africa, or India and are from the UK for generations or are from the Caribbean or the Americas although I have heard that some people consider the Caribbeans part of the Americas}. I don't recall that there was an "Other" category. But if that the one Other category is the one that all these people-including people who are mixed African plus some other race[s]-are supposed to use, then the results for Others wouldn't seem to be very percise. Again, not that this is a big deal. Actually, that's why I curious why it wasn't thought of-if I didn't overlook it. Given the current population of the UK, especially England, {I think}, it seems the inclusion of a Black UKer from the Caribbean category at least would be standard operating procedure. |
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03 Sep 06 - 07:41 PM (#1826246) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Old Grizzly On the 2001 census, there was a category for 'Any other black background' along with a box to fill in It might also be noted that the last census form 'Ethnic Group' categories for Whites included for 'British' 'Irish' & 'Other' This managed to upset a huge number of English, Welsh and Scottish folks who, against all official instructions, including threats of beheading for treason, all insisted on classifying themselves by their country in the 'other' section. Such was the outcry, that I understand these categories will be included in the next census. Dave (English) |
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04 Sep 06 - 03:58 AM (#1826382) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Paul Burke In that census, I ticked "other" and entered "human" as my ethnicity. It's interesting that of my four grandparents' names, the three of which, being Irish, I thought would be evenly distributed over the industrial areas, actually concentrate in the area that my grandparents lived. And that the fourth one, English and proud of ancient Recusant Catholic ancestry, is concentrated mostly in west Scotland. |
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04 Sep 06 - 04:58 AM (#1826413) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: sian, west wales I wonder if we're getting mixed up between the person's ethnicity and the ethnic background of the name itself? I don't think the site is concerned with the actual person's background, so Black American would only show up if a) the NAME was unique to Black Americans and b) that name appeared in sufficient numbers to show up statistically. Perhaps even c) that those name bearers noted Black American on a census form. (I think Old Grizzly might have something there.) I have a friend, born and raised in N Wales, with the surname of Holweger. Polish descent. Holweger doesn't give any search results, just "There needed to be at least 100 people with the name on the Electoral Register in 1998 to be in the database. We are hoping to add these missing names at a later date." Re: the 2001 census, I got hold of the sticker being distributed 'underground' with the same list of 'origins' but with 'Welsh' added. We were told they were illegal and we could get into trouble for mucking up an official form, but nothing seems to have come of it ... so far. sian |
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04 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM (#1826562) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Azizi See this list from that spatial name website {Note: I have deleted the percentage points for the specific surname I used as those percentages are not pertinent to my point} Ethnicity of forenames Number of occurrences as forename Closest similar surname (phononym) British or unknown ---English or unknown ---Irish ---Scottish ---Welsh Jewish Balkan French German or Dutch Greek or Greek Cypriot Hispanic Hungarian Italian Nordic Polish or Czech Russian Black African North African Turkish or Turkish Cypriot Other Muslim Indian ---Hindi ---Sikh ---Other South Asian East Asian -snip- I interpreted this ethnicity frequency of surname list to mean that a specific amount of people from those ethnic groups listed would have that specific surname that was being researched. This may {also?} mean that that name originated with that specific ethnic group which has the largest concentration of that name, but that wasn't how I read that chart. I admit that at some point I confused this websites's surname frequency chart with a census form in which the person checks which ethnic group is best applicable for him or her. Apparently, by some means this chart's developers determine how many people of a specific ethnicity have that particular last name being researched. But I still think that what those developers mean by "Black African" is open to question. Do they mean people who are newly {first & second generation}immigrated from "Black" African countries {whatever that means}? And does the term "Black African" also include people who are first & second generation {or more} immigrants from the Caribbean? And does the term "Black African" include those Black Britishers whose ancestors did not imigrate from Africa or the Caribbean. Not to mention the African Americans [UnitedStaters, and the Black Canadians, and the Black Brazilans and other Black people from where ever. And not to mention the number of people who are of Black/non-Black descent. And not to mention that some North Africans are dark skinned. After all, the nation of the Sudan {meaning "Land of the Blacks"} is located in North East Africa. Also, I get a sense from previous posts to this thread and from some other Mudcat threads that White folks want to distinquish which kind of white they are {by ethnicity] on census forms and elsewhere. [And I must say this has been a revelation to me since in the United States "White" on the census appears to be sufficient a category for White folks as opposed to "British", "Irish", "Welsh", "French" etc. And I believe that I'm not alone among African Americans in calling "White a race and those other groups ethnicities [btw, I capitolize "White" and "Black" for my own reasons, though few people use capitolizations for these group referents. However, it seems from posts in other Mudcat threads that folks call these groups "races" {for instance the "Irish race" and the "British race"}thus differentiating one White 'race' from 'another']. Given this, I can imagine that any self-select census form in your nation whose developers included these categories must be even more complicated and even more interesting and fraught with 'drama' than self-select census forms in the United States. |
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04 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM (#1826580) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Azizi And speaking of uniqueness and frequency of name usage among races or ethnic groups, returning to the question asked in this thread's title "What's in a name?", here are some thoughts that might be of interest to some here: Name origins & meanings can help a person develop both a positive self-concept and a positive sense of one's group. In the United States, and perhaps in other "Western" civilizations, most sound of a name than the origin & meaning of a name. Learning about name origins & meanings is a fun past time. Most people pursue such information when they are or someone they know is expecting the birth of a child. That is why websites and books with this information are usually called "baby name" websites and "baby name" books. In addition to how a name sounds, people selecting [or making up] a name take into consideration who has that name {or has had that name -parents, relatives, celebrities and other famous people. Also, increasingly since at least the late 1960s/early 1970s after a number of African nations received their independence from European nations, African Americans began to express their pride in their African heritage by selecting non-European & non-Hebrew personal names for themselves & giving these names to other adults and to their children. In my opinion, because of this African pride phenomenon and also because of the attention given to sounding out words in the phonic reading system and because of the tremedous influence of the hip-hop counter culture movement, how a name {and other words}look in written form {how the name is spelled} has been increased in importance. Thus, in ranking what is important in name selection, I would say that the name's sound is most important; who the name is associated with has secondary importance, and how the name is spelled and written-with accents, capitolization of the first letter of the second syllable, and/or use of a hypen-is thirdly important. Where the name came from has some importance to those Afro-centric Black people who don't want a European name for themselves or their children {but may accept names from non-African languages that sound "African" or names from the Hebrew language if they are unique enough and again, if they don't sound like British names-since-imo-that is what is generally meant by European to many Black people. What a name means is last in importance and most often not a consideration at all. It seems that uniqueness in names plays a larger role in name selection for more African Americans than it does for European Americans. In the context of African American naming traditions "uniqueness" means the same thing as "different". However, any survey of contemporary African American names will reveal a uniformity to these names. Historically, more African American females than males had what mainstream American would consider to be 'unique' names. However, since at least the 1970s became part of the expression of pride in African nations receiving their indeindeppan expressionp0the number of African American males who have unique names appears to have increased since at leathe 1970s an increasing number of African American males}the "uniqueness" of a name is considered to be very important. Yet these unique names follow trends in names. A name is accepted and admired by African American people if that name obeys certain American and African American rules for the composition of names. These rules govern how long a name should be, whether the given name is male or female, which consonants or vowels should be used at the beginning and end of a male and/or female name, whether more than two consonant or vowel clusters should be used {the answer to that question is "no"}, what consonants and vowels can be used together, what prefixes the name should have if it is to be given to a male or female, what suffixes the given name should be if it is to be given to a male or a female, and what-if any-written "embellishments" should be given to a name {"embellishments" here means capitalizations of the first letter in the second syllable, and the use of an accent mark, or hyphen}. It is my experience that African Americans {and other groups of people, I presume} have sound preferences for names. These sound preferences help to determine the popularity of personal names. Some of these sound preferences remain fairly constant over time, and some of the sound preferences change over time, becoming more popular, less popular, or not popular at all. Some of the likes & dislikes that African Americans have for sounds in names {and other words} adhere to the same preferences that non-African Americans have. But some of these preferences appear to be "unique" to African Americans. For example, {for some reason or reasons} non-African Americans and African Americans don't like names or other words that begin with more than two consonants, or more than one vowel, or have more than three syllables, or begin with a "U" or end with a "u" or begin with an "X" or end with an "x". In addition to these dislikes, especially since the 1970s but also before that time {as evidenced by Elza Dinwiddie-Boyd's book "Proud Heritage, 11,001 Names For Your African-American Baby" {Avon Books, 1994},.for some reason or reasons many African Americans have a great fondness for names that begin with "Ch" or "Sh". This preference for "Ch" or "Sh" beginning is especially the case for female names. See for example the usually female names "Chante"{pronounced chah-TAY}, Shante {shah-TAY}, Chanice {chah-NEES} and Shanice {shah-NEES}. Not only do these currently popular names reflect African American preference for the "Cha" and "Sha" sounds but they also serve as examples for the popularity of the "tay" ending sound and the ees ending sound. Furthermore, note that these names adhere to the American preference for names that have two or three syllables. These names also adhere to the American rule that it is the second syllable in a name that is accentuated {meaning the last syllable in a two syllable name and the middle syllable in a three syllable name such as Azizi [ah-ZEE-zee}. By the way, for some reason or reasons African Americans tend to pronounce the vowel "a" differently than European Americans. Among African Americans an "a" is pronounced 'ah" {the same way it is pronounced in Spanish, Swahili, Arabic, Yoruba etc}. So, for instance, many African Americans pronounce the name "Yolanda" as yoh-LAHN-dah or yah-LAHN-dah while many European Americans pronounce that same name yoh-LAN-dah. And when you see a young African American woman with a name tag "Sade" odds are that name is pronounced shah-DAY and that the woman is named after the vocalist "Sade" whose name is also pronounced that same way. For that singer "Sade" is a clip of her full first name Yoruba {Nigeria West Africa} female name Folasade and is pronounced foh-lah-SHAH-day [f] ola -meaning "honor or wealth" and [s] ade meaning crown {comes}- that name then literally means "the crown comes with honor or wealth". But few African American know this etymological information. Yet couldn't this knowledge help African woman named Ola {Ola Mae} or Sade {Sadie} feel good about themselves and about their African ancestry? I definitely believe so. See this Name page of my website http://www.cocojams.com/names.htm for my ideas about the meaning of various contemporary "Cha" and "Sha" and other "different" personal names given to African Americans and/or to other people. |
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04 Sep 06 - 11:21 AM (#1826605) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Azizi Correction: In the United States, and perhaps in other "Western" civilizations, how a name sounds in much more important than the origin & meaning of a name. |
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04 Sep 06 - 11:35 AM (#1826611) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: sian, west wales Azizi, as always - most interesting! I won't comment on what the site owners' intention is, as I don't know anything about them. But, on the subject of names and sounds, you're right about identity. Very much a Welsh thing, and I would suggest that it is important to any group which need to promote a group cohesiveness. For example, older Welsh women might have been registered as Shan instead of Sia^n (the hat should be on the 'a' but that doesn't show up on every web browser) because the parents wanted non-Welsh speakers to pronounce the name correctly. A growing Welsh sense of 'Welshness' IMO means that parents these days will automatically use 'Sia^n'. The parents of an even earlier generation - those now in their 80s plus perhaps - would not have registered a child as 'Sia^n' at all, but as 'Jane' ... and then proceded to call her Sia^n around the house! Heck, not even an earlier generation: I'm Jane on my birth certificate (and I'm not in my 80s!) Similarly, over the last 3 generations, Welsh surnames have undergone transformation. Many Thomases have changed back to the Welsh 'Tomos', Evanses to 'Ifans' and quite often even to 'ap Ifan' (son of Ifan). (Few women use the 'ach Ifan' though.) Some Preeces/Prices/Rices/etc are reverting to 'Rhys' or 'ap Rhys'. Etc. In actual fact, a lot of people don't use their 'style' (as west Walians refer to 'surname') at all. My godson's registered name is Gwion Dulais. He's Gwion; his dad is Dulais. There's no other surname on his birth certificate. And then there's the famous Welsh nick-name which is bestowed/inflicted on you by your peers or community. Few people use my actual birth name; I'm 'Sian Toronto' to most people because that's what the people of Carmarthen decided to call me. (When I moved here, there was someone of my name already working in my field so I was given a different name ... and had no say in the matter.) My neighbour is referred to as Roland the Wreath because he took it upon himself a few years to take up collections for funeral flowers when any of the Old Dears in the neighbourhood passed on. I know a man called Dennis Gwallt Neis (Dennis Nice Hair) because he has this remarkable natural (??) marcel wave. The regulars in my local pub include Dai Tractor, Dai Scaffold, Dai Dentist, Dai Felin Wen, and Dai Collier. I'm not sure of the surnames of any of them, but I think at least two of them are 'David Evans'. There's a whole body of Welsh humour based on these nicknames. snip: non-African Americans and African Americans don't like names or other words that begin with more than two consonants, or more than one vowel, or have more than three syllables Unlike the Welsh, then! Lots of names, male and female, beginning with 2 vowels. To a non-Welsh speaker, there are lots beginning with 2 consonants, although Welsh-speakers would recognize LL (for example) as being one letter, and 'Gw' as being a consonant + vowel. Quite a few 3 syllable forenames, but not so many of 4+ that I can think of. 'Eirian' is an interesting name as it is generally a girl's name in North Wales and a boy's name in South Wales. Another Welsh custom, particularly with male children, is to name them after the local geography, so you get a lot of men with middle names the names of rivers and counties - bringing the sense of belonging down to a very local level. Women get named after seasons and weather for some reason: i.e. Haf (summer) or Eira (Snow). Apart from Wales, I know of a friend of Irish extraction who spells his name KilBride. I've also come across two brothers, one of whom uses 'Duff' as a last name and the other 'FitzDuff'. Someone once explained it by declaring in funereal tones, "Don't ask! It's all Political." So I didn't, but it's stuck in my mind ever since. sian |
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04 Sep 06 - 12:24 PM (#1826641) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Azizi Thanks for that comment, sian. And may I confess that I've pictured you as a male, thinking that "sian" was probably the same as the Irish name "Sean" which [for some reason] is pronounced the same as Shawn and Shaun and since Sean, Shawn, and Shaun [in the USA anyway] are usually male names that's why I thought you were male. May I ask how 'Sian' is pronounced? Btw, I believe these often African American and usually female names LaShaun, La-shauna, Shante, Shantika, Shauna, Shawntiniqe, and LaSean are based on the "Sean", "Shawn", "Shaun" family of usually male names. The names Deshawn and DeShaun are very popular among African American males. For some reason both are pronounced day-SHAUN and both have the very common nickname Day Day. You would think that these names would be pronounced dee SHAUN, but that is rarely the case. The 'e' is pronounced like the Spanish, Swahili, Yoruba, Arabic 'e', meaning "e' is pronounced like "a". And then there's "Juan" and other "aun" names for males and females. This name & sound rhymes with 'lawn'. African Americans seemed to have had a preference for the 'on'; 'aun'; 'awm' sound before the influx of Spanish speaking people to some of our communities. For instance, there are alot of Davon's {day VAUGN} which is another Day Day name and a prime example of why one rule for vowel pronunciation doesn't always hold true as according to the rule I gave previously this name should be pronounced dah-VAUGHN}. And there are a number of Black Americans in their 50s and older named "Juanita". But there are an increasing number of African American males who are name Javon, Javote, Javontay, Juantika, Jwan, Juwan, Dejuan, DeJuwan, etc, etc, etc. Through my website and through presentations, I share with folks my opinion that some of contemporary names are African American created variants of Hebrew names {and Arabic names, and so forth}. And, because they are variants of these names, they can share the same meaning as their 'root' name. For instance I say that all those Javon, Javontay, Juwan, Dejuan names mean the same thing as John {"God is gracious" or "Gracious Gift of God"}. If these names have positive meanings, and if ascribing those meanings to those names which are usually said to have no meaning it can help someone feel better about him or her self, all to the better. Best wishes, Sian! Azizi {who on this website has often been mistaken for a male} |
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04 Sep 06 - 01:47 PM (#1826695) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: sian, west wales Yeh, Joe Offer himself used to think I was a bloke. It's pronounced "Shan" with a fairly nasal, but short 'a'. The Welsh male equivalent is Sio^n, which is similar to Shawn but with a long 'oh' sound. 'Sioned' would be 'Janet'. 'Sia^n' can be Jane or Jean. 'Sio^n' or 'Ioan' are 'John'. 'Ieuan, Ifan, Iwan, Ianto' can all be 'James'. Back to surnames, Jones would have been 'ap Ioan' or 'ap Sion' at one point ... and Wales is FULL of those! sian |
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04 Sep 06 - 04:14 PM (#1826827) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Tootler Also, I get a sense from previous posts to this thread and from some other Mudcat threads that White folks want to distinquish which kind of white they are {by ethnicity] on census forms and elsewhere. [And I must say this has been a revelation to me since in the United States "White" on the census appears to be sufficient a category for White folks as opposed to "British", "Irish", "Welsh", "French" etc. Azizi, the reason for this is essentially political (with a small p). Although England, Scotland and Wales (and Northern Ireland) are all part of the United Kingdom, each has its own history identity and traditions. There has long been a feeling in Scotland and Wales that their identity has been submerged by the establishment (for want of a better word) and so the Scots and Welsh are determined that this should not be. As a result of more recent political developments, a similar feeling has started to grow in England and the English are also starting to assert their own identity. This is why the "White" population of the UK are asking for their "ethnic" identity to be put on the census and other official forms. Of course, the situation is not as simple as this as the population of the UK is in fact made up of many ethnic groups some of whom have been here for a very long time and others are of more recent origin. Personally I am not sure what I will put on the next census form as my Father is English and his family have been resident in the area I now live for at least 300 years. My mother was Scots and I was actually born in Aberdeen and still think of myself as an Aberdonian though I have not been back for many years. I am equally proud of both my parents origins. |
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05 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM (#1827147) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Azizi Tootler, I appreciate your explanation. I now understand why there is a need for more entries in the UK census form. I sympathize with your quandry as to how you will fill out that form. Couldn't you check both? But, having said that, in the United States, people have told me {unofficial folks} that if a person checks two entries-such as Black and White on census forms or other forms that ask race, the tabulators will chose the first form selected-which is Black. In the United States, the selection of an "Other" category or "Mixed Race" category by people who are Black/Non-Black has political and fiscal {as well as social} implications as the decreased number of Black people in a state or region or the nation. Since increased numbers equal increased power, the selection of an "Other" category or "Mixed Race" caegory decreases the number of persons who are counted as being Black by that census or poll {though in real life these people may be considered Black by other people because of the way those people look-but that's another story}. I'm saying this, Tottler, because I wonder if your selection of the Scots entry on that census might have political and/or fiscal implications for Scots as a minority {meaning lesser numbers} group of people in your region or nation. If so, that might be one reason for you to select that entry. But I hope you will not think that either selection-if it comes down to choosing one or the other-means that you're not equally proud of both sides of your heritage. I beleive you when you said you were proud of both, and, of course, you should be. Best wishes, Azizi |
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05 Sep 06 - 12:49 AM (#1827156) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: LadyJean I'm afflicted with the international surname. It can be English, French, Scottish, German, Scandinavian, Irish, and probably Welsh. In my case it's Irish. American Southerners give their children unusual names, I once dated a Billy Dee Bailey. He was white, from Ewing Kentucky, and I don't know what his parents were thinking either. He had a sister named Sabina Rae. I also knew a Danita Jolene, an elderly lady named Austin, and another old dear, descended from Kentucky's famous Clay family, who was named Clavia. After 6 years in a prep school where every third girl was named either Susan, Laura or Nancy it was kind of refreshing. (My poor sister was one of 3 Ellens in her class. In the fifth grade their teacher asked the Ellens mothers what they were called at home. Mom called my sister E. The other 2 were Lolly and Ellie. They remained E, Lolly and Ellie until they graduated from high school.) I work for a number of Jewish ladies. It's amazing how many of them have French names, Yvonne, Annette, etc. That seems to have been a trend in the 50s. Their daughters, for the most part, had proper Hebrew names like Rachel or Sarah. |
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05 Sep 06 - 04:38 AM (#1827228) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Gervase Further to sian's points about Welsh names, in rural areas it's usual for someone to have their name of their farm or holding. For example, everyone knows our boy as Jack Heolas locally, and his best friends are Llir Ty Gwyn and Dyfed Blaenwaun. Which is very helpful, as everyone around here is either a Morgan or a Davies! If you were to ask someone where Llir Morgan or Dyfed Davies lived, they'd probably stare are you blankly and admit they didn't have a clue. |
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05 Sep 06 - 04:42 AM (#1827229) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Dave the Gnome Mine doesn't come up in the search at all! There needs to be at least 100 in th eelectoral register apparantly:-) In answer to the thread title - Of course it is! Conan Doyle used it all the time. Elementary my dear Whatsin... Cheers DtG |
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07 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM (#3448566) Subject: RE: Folklore: What's in a Name From: Jack Campin A depressing addendum to this... whitening your name to get a job |