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02 Mar 99 - 12:27 AM (#60967) Subject: The Rose of Allendale From: Bojangles I heard this lovely song sung."..and by far the swetest flower of all was the rose of Allendale." Lyrics and any information on the origin of the song would be greatly appreciated. |
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02 Mar 99 - 02:29 AM (#60981) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: MudGuard Please, before posting a lyrics request, try a database search (in the blue box at the top right corner) and if that fails a forum search (follow the link at the top of the main forum page) Your database search with "rose *dale" (the asterisk is to cover all possible spellings of Allen/Alen/Allan/Alan/...) would have (among others) shown you a link named "Sweet Rose of Allendale" to this page: http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5629 Andreas |
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02 Mar 99 - 12:51 PM (#61039) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Bill D If you go to the upper left corner of the threads page and click on "forum search" and enter 'Rose of Allendale' in the body box, you get 12-15 answers...including this one (there are also discussions in these threads about proper spelling...remember, on a computer, you get exactly what you ask for, so to do productive searches, you also have to try alternate spellings..and/or learn the various tricks with the * to cover the possibilities) The forum has been going for over 3 years now,and SO many songs and topics have been discussed...and there is no easy way to deal with it when someone re-opens an issue. Max has made it possible to search 40,00-50,000 messages, rather than ask those with information to re-type it everytime someone new arrives..(and certain songs and issues get LOTS of requests)... Joe Offer has recently made a beginning at designing a 'users manual' page, but even if we get it, there will a problem getting folk to read it. And, lets face it not everyone realizes that song 'X' (like Rose of Allendale, for instance) is so well known that there MUST have been previous discussions in 3 years! If one does the requisite searches, and then needs more info, then a new thread---titled to reflect the new need, is always in order....but is can be hard for those who have been here for 2 or 3 years to find a way to type politely "we just DID that"!.*smile* We have a fine thing here...no one knows anyplace on the net where it so easy for people to see, learn and discuss their favorite subject..but anything this complex requires some effort to use it productively! I hope that as it develops, we will find ways to help each other and keep it fun without wearing on each other. (What, you say..a paid librarian who does nothing but search, sort and find and post answers??) *grin* I'm open to an offer.. |
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02 Mar 99 - 08:16 PM (#61093) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Mick Lowe As one who is probably as guilty as anyone re not checking previous threads (I have a strong defence.. i.e. here in the UK it COSTS us to be on line so I try to minimise it as much as possible).. what would/might be really useful (if at all possible), is a "top 10/20" by subject matter/thread title. Tho' as Bill quite rightly says it would probably need a "librarian".. (whoops mental image of Terry Pratchett's version.. hope you don't fit that description Bill)... I'm all for getting people jobs.. Mick |
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02 Mar 99 - 08:35 PM (#61094) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Bill D Mick...I read somewhere recently, that there a movement afoot in the UK and Europe generally to lower those costs...some are providing free online service, though there is still phone line cost to deal with. But it can't help but go down as the world gradually adapts to this new technology... Still, I see your point..we in the USA have it relatively easy. Perhaps a list of 'Songs which have been discussed' could be developed..(I have seen magazines which had volunteers go thru old issues and develop an index..).. I know!!... cross-index the database with the forum...(ducking as Dick G. and Susan of DT throw old floppies at me) |
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03 Mar 99 - 04:51 AM (#61138) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Susan of DT Gee Bill, did I hear you volunteer? |
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03 Mar 99 - 10:50 AM (#61153) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Bill D ...shhhh!!! I got me a job already! |
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04 Mar 99 - 12:42 AM (#61221) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Bojangles Many thanks for the thoughtful help |
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04 Mar 99 - 03:46 PM (#61281) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: mm As far as I remember, this is a song about Katherine O'Shea, whose relationship with Charles Stewart Parnell caused him to be boycotted, ironically, since he was the one who started the method of shunning, when he instigated the shunning of Captain Boycott. |
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05 Mar 99 - 01:50 PM (#61474) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Ruairidh (inactive) Perhaps the song refers to a little known sideline of that member of R.Hoods Gang Alan a Dale, who moonlighted as a fishmonger, specialising in roes |
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11 Mar 99 - 07:48 AM (#62402) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: skw@worldmusic.de mm - are there any substantial arguments for this song being about Kitty O'Shea? I'd always associated Parnell with Avondale, and I've never come across a song about O'Shea. Has anyone else? Thanks, Susanne |
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11 Mar 99 - 04:03 PM (#62470) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Barry Finn I don't think either Parnell or Kitty play any part of this song. It was written by englishman Charles Dibden in 1776 & became quite popular with the sailors. Three versions show up in "Songs of the Whalermen" by Gale Huntington . 3 ships logs had 'The Rose of Allendale' 1847, 1849 & 1852, one ship's log had the version 'Mary's Cot' 1848 & one more log had 'The Beacon Light' 1835. Dibden wrote a fair number of songs that sailors of his time took a liking too, so much so portraying sailoring in the Royal Navy as a diserable form of employment that he was knighted for swelling the ranks of the Navy through his written music. If you do a DT & fourm search with Didben you may come up with a number of his other songs. Barry |
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26 Dec 00 - 01:15 PM (#363517) Subject: RE: The Rose off Allendale From: Barry Finn Refresh |
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26 Dec 00 - 05:04 PM (#363619) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Jimmy C I don't think this song is related to Ireland in anyway. It is popular there but probably blew across from Scotland. The part of the first verse " Mary, left her highland home " would also point in that direction. |
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26 Dec 00 - 06:15 PM (#363653) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Jimmy C I knew I had this somewhere and upon further investigation I came across the song on page 74 of an old book " The Gray Book of Favourite Songs", Published by Hall & McCreary Company, Chicago in 1919, 1924, 1936 and lastly in 1941. It credits Charles Jeffrey with the air and Sidney Nelson with the lyrics, arrangement by Walter Goodell. A few small differences from the version I sing, such as :
The 3rd line of verse #1 goes " When Mary left her highland cot" instead of highland home.
2nd verse " Though fate began to lour" instead of lower
3rd verse " On Afric's burning sand" instead of On Africa's burning sand. End of 3rd verse " Had fate not linked my lot to her's" instead of "My Love to her's".
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26 Dec 00 - 06:35 PM (#363668) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Snuffy There's a thread on 'The Blackbird of Sweet Avondale', which is about Parnell, and nothing to do with the Rose Of Allandale. Wassail! V |
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26 Dec 00 - 06:43 PM (#363670) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Snuffy That line in the 2nd verse " One Maiden form withstood the storm", always brings to mind the Maidenform bra. Quite a vivid image of the Rose clad in only her underwear and clasping the mast while being drenched by mountainous seas! Do they still make Maidenforms? Wassail! V |
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26 Dec 00 - 07:39 PM (#363714) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: dulcimer Help!! with the definitive answer of who wrote the tune and the words. I like playing it, but don't want to give out erroneous intro information. |
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26 Dec 00 - 07:57 PM (#363718) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: paddymac This is a really great song. Paddy Reilly does a nice job with it, but my sense of it is that it's better suited to a tenor's voice. Sadly, that's not me anymore. |
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26 Dec 00 - 08:28 PM (#363735) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Malcolm Douglas Several copies of the original sheetmusic (Jefferys/Nelson, not Dibdin) may be seen at The Lester S. Levy Collection of Sheet Music, here: ROSE OF ALLANDALE So far as I can tell, all recordings made by revival singers derive originally from the Copper family version, which is a particularly good example of how a "folk-processed" version of a composed song can turn out to be far better than the original. Mind you, most of the later recordings I've heard have been inferior to the Coppers', which is certainly the definitive set. It is of course not even slightly Irish, and was written by professional songwriters in either England or America; I'd be very interested if anyone can place Jefferys and Nelson. Malcolm |
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26 Dec 00 - 10:36 PM (#363809) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Jimmy C Malcolm, That Levy Collection is one great site. Thanks, I can see myself spending many hours at it. |
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26 Dec 00 - 10:43 PM (#363817) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Barry Finn Hi Malcolm, I did go back to double check on Huntington's source for this & the mistake in referencing Dibden is my mistake in reading his quote not his, my apologies, he was speaking of another song from the log of the Cortes (1847). Barry |
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27 Dec 00 - 09:23 AM (#363937) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST,John Hill This song is clearly about a ship. The "maidenform that withstood the storm" is refering to the figurehead at the front of the ship. It was written by Charles Jeffreys 1807-1865. Who was English. It is a broadside ballad and there are several copies of it in the Bodleian library of the University of Oxford see here .. (click) If you are not aware there are something like 30,000 of these broadside deposited here and all will eventually be online to download. As for the word lour it can be spelt as lower too both are correct. (But always pron. the same) Please note that it is Allandale not Allendale, also it is "lot" and not love in the last verse as pointed out above. |
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27 Dec 00 - 10:53 AM (#363973) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST,dan evergreen Good, one, Ruairidh. You will find sophisticated humor like that not specially appreciated on the Mudcat. |
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27 Dec 00 - 11:07 AM (#363981) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST,"Captain Swing" This song and "I wandered by a brookside" are, to me, examples of the folk club tradition's ability to plumb the depths of tweeness. They are the equivalent of the very worst McCartney song, eg: "Silly Love Songs" and "Wonderful Christmas Time". |
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27 Dec 00 - 03:30 PM (#364086) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: dulcimer I guess the song could be about a ship. Certainly lyrics suggest that. But could it not equally be read as a song about a maid who accompanied her soldier lover? Wasn't this a common practice of the period? I have not great resource for this interpretation. Just wondering. |
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27 Dec 00 - 08:26 PM (#364289) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Malcolm Douglas I can just see a ship coming in handy in the desert, particularly one that engages in reassuring conversation! Thanks for that info on Jefferys, John. The "Allendale" variant spelling goes back a good way, mind; of the references at the Bodleian, 16 are Allandale, 5 are Allendale. Twee? To some tastes, maybe, but I've never seen anything wrong with a bit of sentiment from time to time, if it be well expressed. The song is a wish-fulfilment fantasy of a kind, and can strike quite deep resonances if put over with restraint and conviction. Allandale is a village in Falkirk, west of Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire, incidentally (not really Highland at all). Allendale, on the other hand, is in Hexhamshire (England). With respect to Jefferys, I suspect that he didn't know which was which, or where either of them was. Malcolm |
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27 Dec 00 - 10:37 PM (#364331) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Jimmy C Dulcimer, You are right, it is about a girl who left her home to travel the world with her lover. She stood by him come rain or come shine. This is how I interpret the song. Guest John Hill. The figurehead on the bow of a ship was called The Maidenhead" not Maidenform. |
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28 Dec 00 - 05:46 AM (#364447) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST,John Hill Hello again. I would think that the use of the words maiden form was just poetic licence... I know it should be maidenhead. As to which town Jeffreys was thinking of for the song.. well who knows! It could be the one in England or Scotland. If its just for either a boat or a song does it matter that the town is in land. Yes, it is also about a lady who went off with her lover although I dont think there is anything to suggest he was in the Navy... but I still think the "Rose of Allandale" is the boat they sailed on. It may mention a desert... but you have to get there don't you? Anyway.. surely we all know better than to try and analyse songs/poetry too deeply. I'm interested in who Charles Dibden is that Barry Finn says wrote it in 1776. I note that all the refs he gives for it are much later. |
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28 Dec 00 - 08:45 AM (#364485) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST,Barry from work Hi John, I was mistaken in saying it was by Dibden. However Ddibden did write many songs that seamen thought well enough of to taake to sea as there own. If you do a search using his name you may come up with any number of his songs (& then aagain you maay not). Barry |
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28 Dec 00 - 10:31 AM (#364532) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: GeorgeH Swingy, dearest, this song was widely known amongst "the folk" long before anyone came up with the idea of (or need for) the folk club . . . Come to that, to my mind using "Captain Swing" as an alias is pretty twee, anyway . . . G. |
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29 Dec 00 - 12:08 AM (#364989) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Malcolm Douglas Maidenhead for Figurehead? Is there perhaps a Sailors' Dictionary that the rest of us don't know about? You do understand, don't you, Jimmy and John, what "maidenhead" means? We are not discussing boats. |
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29 Dec 00 - 12:52 PM (#365136) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Jimmy C Malcolm,
There is no dictionary that I know off, but the words maidenhead and figurehead mean the same thing. I also know that the word has other meanings - virginity and a type of fern. I grew up close to the docks in Belfast, and all the old sailors called it the maidenhead. Just to be sure I asked someone who would know about the expression I often heard the old sailors use, and this is his reply. Hi,
Be careful with that one. The sailor, to the best of my knowledge, is correct. HOWEVER, the term also means "a girl's virginity".
But fortunately the word is not part of the song. I believe the song refers to the voyage of life that this couple undertook together. The tempests etc refer to the hard times they encountered and the part about burning sand could be when he was feverish in a foreign country (Africa) and she tried to console him and give him some encourageent to have hope for better times to come.
Overall, his life would not have amounted to much if it had not have been for Mary's love for him and the loyalty she displayed during their life together. A good woman is hard to find. |
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29 Dec 00 - 01:14 PM (#365144) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Malcolm Douglas Thanks for that information, Jimmy; entirely new to me, and most interesting. My apologies for doubting! I'm glad that we both agree on the obvious meaning of the song -just exactly what it says, with no hidden meanings. A typical romantic parlour ballad of its time, in fact, couched in very conventional language but rather sweet in its traditionally developed form, and long a favourite of mine. Malcolm |
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29 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM (#365173) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: Jimmy C Malcolm, You're welcome. Remember "Anything you don't know" ask me. and "Anything I don't know" I'll tell you. Cheers." |
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24 Nov 02 - 09:36 AM (#833820) Subject: RE: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST,Yirdy Machar (yirdy@yahoo.dk) I have a lovely version of The Rose of Allendale by an English group called Crooked Oak. They sing it to the tune of "Loving Hannah". I knew the group to be from around North Yorks./Durham area, of NE England, during the mid 70s. |
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25 Nov 02 - 08:14 AM (#834438) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: Orac The spelling of this should be Allandale. Allendale is in England and is a completely different place from the Scottish "hightland cot" refered to in the song. All the "Allendale" mis-spellings are fairly recent. There are plently of printed 19C sources for this 1835 song but all that I have ever seen spell it Allandale. Please also note that as I pointed out in an earlier thread it should be sung in 4/4 time. If you have any printed music for this song you will maybe notice that. |
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16 Sep 04 - 05:56 PM (#1273507) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST,jim@ceejay.net Malcolm suggests it might be a village near Falkirk but the song was written in 1835 and the Allandale he refers to was not built until the early 20th century. But there is another Scottish Allandale which is the area round the Allan Water near Hawick in the Borders. I am trying to find out the story behind the song but the writer Charles Jeffreys doesn't seem to have left a clue. He also wrote the song "Mary of Argyle" which many wrongly believe was written by Robert Burns. |
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16 Sep 04 - 06:12 PM (#1273519) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: Murray MacLeod Orac states above that the song should be sung in 4/4 time. I would respectfully disagree, and suggest that the song comes across much better when sung in 3/4. What any printed music might have as the time signature is of no consequence. The Rose of Allendale is one of that select group of songs which can be performed equally well in 4/4 or 3/4. The Star of the County Down is another which comes readily to mind. |
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16 Sep 04 - 07:23 PM (#1273599) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: radriano I feel this song sounds much better when not done in 3/4 time. The version done by the Copper Family starts out in 6/4, moves through a couple of other time signatures and ends up in 6/4 again. When done in 3/4 time the song loses texture, in my opinion, and can end up sounding like a sugary County/Western number. |
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16 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM (#1273637) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: Malcolm Douglas It's usually a mistake to look for "meanings" or "stories behind" popular songs written by prolific, professional songwriters; which is what we have here. It's just a song, written for money, using tried and tested formulae (including "Allandale", which featured in other pop songs of the day, probably written by people who didn't know whether it was in high or low country in any case; "highland cots" were as commonplace in such songs as fair morns and clear skies. It's a wonder that there isn't a May Morning as well). By all means invent your own, personal "meaning" for it: but that is all it will be. The song was written in common time. The Copper family sing it in a mix of 5/4, 6/4 and 3/2. Revival performers who have recorded arrangements of their set have tended to simplify it down to a basic waltz rhythm. Take your pick, but be aware that any judgement you make will be subjective. To my mind, the Copper modification can't be bettered; but that's a personal opinion. |
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16 Sep 04 - 08:20 PM (#1273660) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: Murray MacLeod There are those, I am sure, who would contend that this song should be sung unaccompanied, but if you believe (as I do) that almost any traditional song benefits from an innovative Martin Simpson - style guitar accompaniment, then you are practically forced to sing this in 3/4. I simply cannot imagine an intelligent accompaniment in 4/4 (and I have tried) |
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19 Nov 07 - 03:39 PM (#2197741) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: GUEST Hello There, My name is Greg Langille. I am A singer songwriter from Truro/Bible Hill Nova Scotia Canada. The Rose Of Allendale ' is one of my favorite songs. Alas, I must do it in 3/4 time. This works the best for me. My SOUL, THE INTEREST IN THIS SONG IS ALMOST AS GREAT AS THE MELODY. Folks, just love it for the beautifull tune it is. I'm putting it on my next CD. I do a bit of performing for The Scottish Society ' here in Nova Scotia and I always get a request for ''The Rose Of Allendale''. I love to do it as much as they love to hear it. Please keep up the good work on Origins: The Rose Of Allendale. I Love It!! Cheers!! From Nova Scotia!! Greg Langille glangille@tru.eastlink.ca PH; 9028435909 |
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19 Nov 07 - 05:44 PM (#2197840) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: Mick Pearce (MCP) On Jeffreys and Nelson, I found this little quote in a book called Victorian Song - From Dive To Drawing Room by Maurice Willson Disher, 1955: "[...of the song Ducking's Row by Lucy Ann Rhensherl, arranged by S. Nelson:...] It was published at 21 Soho Square by Charles Jeffreys, whose output as a man of business did not include the most memorable of his efforts as a poet. He is the author of "Mary of Argyle", for which Nelson composed the tune. Together they tried again, in a song of equal merit called "The Rose of Allandale", but far less successfully." It goes on to mention a few of the other songs he wrote: "A Fair Breeze Is Blowing", "'Tis Hard To Give The Hand Where The Heart Will Never Be" and "The Song Of The Blind Girl To Her Harp". Mick |
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19 Nov 07 - 09:03 PM (#2197951) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: masato sakurai Listen these at YouTube. The Corries - The Rose Of Allendale The Dubliners - Rose of Allendale |
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20 Nov 07 - 02:41 AM (#2198047) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: Barry Finn I find it a little guestionable believing it was written in 1835. It's been found in the journals of 3 ships, the Cortes 1847, the Euphrasia 1849 & the Minervat 1851. Mary's Cot which Huntington calls a traditional version (to me it reads like a cross between the Rose Of Allendale & Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy) was found in the journal of the Nauticon 1848. The Beacon Light is curiously similar in feel & style & that was found in the journal of the Frances Henrietta 1835, admittingly this is a long shot though. Could it be that the song was around before Charles Jeffreys & he put it to paper after refitting out a traditional version to his own liking. I only have doubts because to have 3 close versions & 1 no so close version found on 4 diffent ships journals in a day & age where the means of music traveling were not like they are today. Though I suppose that if the song were hugely popular at the time just after it was written sailors would be on avenue to spreading the popularity of it. Still 12-15 yrs I guess it could spread that quickly. Barry |
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20 Nov 07 - 04:52 AM (#2198109) Subject: RE: Origins: The Rose of Allendale From: Malcolm Douglas There is no evidence that the song was not original to Jeffreys and Nelson. Ten years was more than enough time for a popular song to enter quite wide oral currency in those days, and for (one) person to muddle bits of it up with another song; particularly as the original contains, as do most successful popular songs, many standard clichés. Huntington's comment is ambiguous (he refers to the 'parlour version' rather than, as he perhaps should have, to 'the original') but then, much of his book is ambiguous: most particularly, where he got all the tunes. |
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