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03 Oct 06 - 08:34 AM (#1849148) Subject: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Mick From the thread on the Amish School shooting tragedy. Here is what I posted: From the British left... From the British right.... And here is what Straight Dope says... Certainly fodder for a whole thread there, huh? Interesting stuff. |
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03 Oct 06 - 08:44 AM (#1849155) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Dave Hanson Yes, on the whole, although I think gun crime in the UK is increasing, it is 99.99% recurring drug related. eric |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:18 AM (#1849175) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: John MacKenzie All hand guns are illegal in the UK, and most licences are for shotguns and hunting rifles, although deer are just about the only animal we have to shoot with a rifle, and most of our sport shooting consists of game bird shoots. A private citizen is unlikely to get a licence for any sort of automatic or repeat firing gun, i e no AK47s or Uzis. Since the opening of the European borders due to the advent of the Common Market, and increasing number of illegal guns are appearing in the UK. This is also fuelled by the collapse of the communist bloc, and the increased availability of weapons that has caused. On the whole guns are still comparatively rare in the UK as compared to the US, but unfortunately this is changing rapidly, and as has been said largely due to drug related activities. Giok |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:29 AM (#1849182) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Mr Fox It's not just the law - the whole culture is different. This side of the pond we've NEVER had the easy access to guns that Americans have, and don't particularly want it. In fact, anyone with an interest in guns (handguns and automatics anyway) is regarded with deep suspicion by most people. Shotguns are another matter. Farmers and toffs have those and they're a fairly normal sight in the country. |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:35 AM (#1849185) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Mick It seems to me that each of you is saying that violent crime but it is "largely due to drug related activities". What that indicates to me is that the new restrictions on the guns makes my point. Criminals will always get guns. It isn't the availability of guns for legitimate use that is the danger. It is social and economic factors that cause crime and violence. The gun is the tool, but the laws really don't impact the criminals ability to be obtain that tool. They just create a black market, which will always exist. The shooting in the schoolhouse yesterday doesn't seem to bolster either side's arguments. This guy was a model parent and neighbor carrying around a 20 year old grievance that had festered. He had guns, stun gun, knives. Do you really believe that if the guns weren't for sale he wouldn't have found a way to express his mental illness? Would it have been less horrific with a knife or bat? I am just not convinced that gun laws aren't a case of treating the symptoms and ignoring the disease. Mick |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:39 AM (#1849187) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee Why are deer hunted with a rifle in the UK? A shotgun slug will drop one quite effectively and has far less range than a rifle bullet (say 250 yards as opposed to more than a mile just for a .22). Of course, you DO have to get closer to the deer, and that takes more skill.... Likewise muzzleloading firearms have less range than a modern rifle but can and do take animals up bears. Again, they take stalking skills to get close enough for an effective shot. And bows, too. Bow hunting is quite effective and deer can be taken quite humanely by a trained bowhunter. In all of these cases the range of the projectile is considerably less than that of a rifle. Indeed, in Midwestern states such as Illlinois, shotgun, muzzleloader, and bow are the primary LEGAL weapons weapons allowed for hunting (pistol too, but these are highly restricted as weapons for hunting deer -- only certain calibers, barrel lengths, etc.). This is because these states are flat and a bullet from high-powered rifle travels a very long way and could easily hit someone or something. The UK is highly populated (average number of people per acre), so why are rifles used for hunting there? (I shan't say anything about the waterfowl hunting practices except that it's my own opinion that the weapons and practices used remove such hunting from sport.) |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:48 AM (#1849193) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST Criminals will always get guns. It isn't the availability of guns for legitimate use that is the danger. It is social and economic factors that cause crime and violence. I agree there are other very relavant factors but from my UK perspective I'd rather not have guns at all. If guns were allowed and there was a chance I had one in the house, I'd feel more threatened, not safer. Why? because IMO that policy would encourage the criminal who intends robbing me to have a gun to protect himself from my gun. It's a downward spiral. It's different I think in the US where guns have unfortunately been part of the culture for so long. |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:50 AM (#1849197) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Gervase I have to say I don't recognise the country described in that first link (from the South African gun control campaign), although their statistics seem to finish in the late Nineties. The second link is more recogniseable, but again comes from a particular slant, and even Cecil Adams seems to be comparing apples with oranges when he compares the UK to the US. What I would say is that, unless you're young and black or involved in the drugs trade, you are extremely unlikely to come across gun crime in the UK. Those cases where 'ordinary blokes' are shot make headline news because they are so rare. Young black kids are being shot on an almost weekly basis in the UK, but that doesn't seem tobother anyone apart from the Met's Operation Trident team. What the stricter firearms laws do seem to have done is weed out the nutters who previously owned guns - the sort responsible for the Hungerford and Dunblane killings. They have had no effect at all on the criminal possession of firearms - save to prompt a small increase in the number of black-market handguns when possession became strictly illegal and a lot of WWII souvenirs found their way onto the black market. Today, however, the vast majority of illicit weaponry has never been legally held. As such, the UK gun laws are largely irrelevant when it comes to our current level of gun-related crime. Nevertheless, there are few in the UK who would want to see them relaxed - even though, for people like me who do shoot, the laws have made the process more bureaucratic. The Tony Martin case became a cause celebre with the British right-wing press, but he makes an unpalatable 'hero'. He did not have a certificate for the shotgun with which he killed the teenager. He had told people beforehand that he intended to kill anyone trespasasing on his land, and the teenager was shot outside the house as he was running away. In law, I'm afraid, that made any plea of self-defence quite meaningless - and so ilt should. |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:50 AM (#1849198) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee Switzerland. Israel. Various Arab countries. |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:59 AM (#1849205) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Bassic Thanks for the links Mick, I am glad that my "gut feeling" analysis of the situation in the UK seems to be born out by other posters and by those articles. The thing I reacted to was the implication (as I interpreted it) in your statement on the other thread that having increased gun controls in the UK was related to a rise in violent crime since then. It is clear that crime involving guns is on the increase in certain inner cities in the UK but as others have pointed out, it is the increase in the availability of illegal arms from Eastern Europe and the like that has fueled this. I would venture to suggest that the kinds of tragedy that we are talking about in the school house these past few days, and the Dunblaine situation which prompted the new laws, are less likely to occur now in the UK than they were before. That's what the legislation was primarily targeted at as I understand it, taking legal "sport" guns beyond the reach of the temporarily deranged and unstable......not primarily at the use of guns by criminals/drug gangs. That is a whole different problem and needs tackling in a different way. It is what should be part of normal police work in tackling organised criminals and gangs. It is predictable and people and organisations and society can take steps to prevent and minimise the risks. Its the unpredictable and "beyond belief" outrages that most upset people and in that respect, the general consensus over here seems to be that keeping guns out of the hands of the general population makes people in the UK feels safer. However I can quite see that with so many guns being in general circulation in the US that the circumstances could dictate an opposite view there. |
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03 Oct 06 - 10:03 AM (#1849206) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Mick Yeah, Bassic, I wrote from memory and after several posters started to go after me on it, I realized I had better track some stuff down. Interesting takes on it, eh? Mick |
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03 Oct 06 - 10:06 AM (#1849208) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Dazbo Rapaire, as far as I know bow hunting in the UK is illegal and has been for ages (due to the percieved likelyhood that the animal will not be immediately fatally wounded and will escape to die a long, lingering death). I believe, but could be wrong, that muzzle loaders can't be used for hunting for the same reason. The mountains should stop the bullets as long as the deer isn't on the skyline. .22 rifles are commonly used by farmers for pest control. Deer are generally hunted in the Highlands of Scotland which have a lower population density than they did before the Highland Clearances 200 years ago. |
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03 Oct 06 - 10:06 AM (#1849209) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Bassic Ooops! Crossed post there, you said it so much more eloquently Gervaise;-). Whats does appear to be the case in the UK is that there is much more consensus about support for the current legislation amongst the general population than in the US. It would take a very great change in circumstances in this country to change that I feel. |
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03 Oct 06 - 10:07 AM (#1849210) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee He had told people beforehand that he intended to kill anyone trespasasing on his land, and the teenager was shot outside the house as he was running away. In law, I'm afraid, that made any plea of self-defence quite meaningless - and so ilt should. He should have been disarmed based upon his intent to shoot to kill any trespassers. Even in the US you can't shoot someone if they are no immediate, real, and deadly threat to you -- and even if someone has hacked your family to death and is now running away, you cannot shoot them dead (although in this case you might very well be acquitted if you did). The threat must be real, immediate, and threaten deadly harm to you or another (and that last has to also be real and immediate). There is also "discrepancy of force" -- an old woman in a wheelchair would be under less restriction in the use of deadly force if she shot an attacking 20 year old male in good health, for example. Nope, even in the US you cann't shoot a fleeing intruder in the back. |
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03 Oct 06 - 10:09 AM (#1849216) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Bassic Yes Mick. Interesting topic. I really dont know how I would feel if I lived in the US though. I guess to a certain extent it depends on where you live? Or is the need to own a gun now an endemic fact of life wherever you live in the US? |
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03 Oct 06 - 10:16 AM (#1849218) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST A relative in rural England kept legal licensed hunting shotguns. Locked up in his house in a proper security cabinet. All his adult life he was a responsible and safe gun owner. Then one day in a mood of dark despair he sawed the barrels off one of his guns and blasted his heart out. Luckily he wasn't too angry with anyone else. So do all legal gun owners need regular psychiatric testing as a condition of ownership ? |
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03 Oct 06 - 11:10 AM (#1849257) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Grab Reducing guns held in private ownership (or at least ensuring they're kept securely) *does* help with gun crime though. It's simple market forces, really - make them harder to get, and you'll reduce the number of people who'll get access to them - and in general, it's easier to break into someone's house than it is to do a deal with the Russian Mafia. So as always, the people who *really* want them can get them, but your average burglar probably won't be able to get them easily. Re deer-hunting, as Dazbo says, deer-keeping in the UK is mostly a Scottish thing, and the Scottish Highlands are mostly tree-free, giving you a massive open approach to the deer. So whatever you're going to shoot a deer with, it'll need to cover a good quarter-mile accurately and with enough energy to kill at the other end, because the deer aren't going to let you get any closer. Graham. |
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03 Oct 06 - 11:23 AM (#1849263) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Gervase So do all legal gun owners need regular psychiatric testing as a condition of ownership An application for a shotgun certificate needs to be countersigned by someone who has known you for at least two years and is a person 'of some standing', by which they mean a doctor, lawyer, minister of religion or other professional. You also have to state if you have suffered from any illness (including mental) and give the details of your doctor, which the police may choose to follow up. There is no testing per se. For a firearms certificate (for rifles) you need to supply two character witnesses and to show that you have 'good reason' to own the weapon and somewhere where you may legally use it. But, again, there is no testing. it is a also a legal requirement for any gun owner to keep the weapons safe. This has been interpreted by the police and Home office as meaning in a steel safe securely fixed to the fabric of the house with at least two five-lever deadlocks. Effectively you won;t get a licence until the police have been to our house, approved all the locks and security arrangements and seen that you have an approved gun-safe fitted and working. Thus it's actually rather rare these days for legitimately owned guns to be stolen. It's a lot easer for a criminal to pay £60 on the black market for a reactivated Russian or Chinese pistol (shipped in by the container-load) than it is to break open a gunsafe and then saw up a double-barrelled shotgun. |
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03 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM (#1849265) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: John MacKenzie Interstingly Switzerland has had enough of guns being held at home by private individuals, because every so often someone takes said gun and slaughters his family and himself. However as in the US, political pressure was brought to bear by vested interests, and the vote did not take place as planned. Here Giok |
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03 Oct 06 - 11:35 AM (#1849279) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Gervase Bow hunting is indeed illegal. Muzzle-loading shotguns are not, as some of the larger-bore fowling pieces used as punt guns are still muzzle-loaded. Also the .22 is really only used for rabbits and squirrels. For foxes, the smallest calibre most forces will authorise is a .243. For deer in England and Wales, the commonest calibre is .270 (although the .243 will probably also soon be used for most species of deer, according to DEFRA). In Scotland you may legally shoot the smaller roe deer with a .222 round. You can't shoot burglars with anything! |
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03 Oct 06 - 11:55 AM (#1849296) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Mick Gun laws in the US are varied by State. In general, it is not about "need". I don't feel the need to own my guns. They are just something I own, and enjoy shooting. They have been a part of my life since I was a small boy, and were the instruments of rites of passage for me. I remember the first time being allowed to shoot a shotgun under very controlled conditions. I remember the first time I was allowed to carry a gun hunting, after very rigorous and lengthy instruction from Uncles and my Da. I remember camping and hunting trips, my first rifle, my first sidearm. I also remember some darker times in the very early 70's which I have recorded elsewhere (in the military). I use them for sporting purposes, and have legally carried them for self defense purposes in high crime areas. As a civilian, I have never pulled one on a person, but my training and background would allow that if necessary. Friend Graham and I have our disagreements from time to time, and I would take issue with something he said above. He indicated reducing legal ownership reduces gun crime, using the market forces analogy. The problem with that statement is that is just doesn't hold water. One cannot use the horrific actions such as we have witnessed in the last few days, as they are not relevant statistically. They are aberrations, perpetrated by unbalanced individuals. The numbers reflect the same thing here that they do in GB. Taking guns from those that legally possess them don't statistically reduce the violent crime numbers among criminals. In fact those numbers go up, as many of you have attested to using the alibi (not said in the perjorative, rather illustrative) that it is only among the drug communities. The only thing that is prevented is the occasional high profile crime of passion or act of an unbalanced individual. These, though, are not statistically relevant. I agree that the culture of Great Britain is different than the culture of the US. My simplistic historic view of why is that there was a need by monarchs to disarm the populace as a method of control. I believe that is why Americans, in revolt against the monarchy, vowed not to be disarmed. Over the several centuries hence, this has evolved in the minds of many of my countrymen into a right to own these weapons. For whatever reason, though, guns are a part of our culture that will never be removed. As to what the States is like, why not ask your countrymen who have visited, say for Getaway. Giok has stayed in my home, and I would wager he never saw any evidence of my weapons, even though I had them at the time. Bill Sables, Micca, Catsphiddle, jacqui C, Andrew and Carole, Noreen and Stewart, ask any of them about this land and its people. We are not wild eyed, gun totin' cowboys. But many of us own weapons. Many of us do not. Mick |
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03 Oct 06 - 12:05 PM (#1849309) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: McGrath of Harlow I don't think too many people would see being pro-gun (or opposed to rigorous control) as being a position held by the mainstream right in the UK. I think most people, including most Conservatives, would see it as just nutty. And even if there were any politicians who didn't see it that way, they'd keep pretty quiet about, because it's a definite vote-loser. |
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03 Oct 06 - 12:20 PM (#1849321) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: eddie1 I don't have the chapter and verse to back this up but I was told by a friend who was in to such things that during the Thatcher era, a then just-retired high ranking officer in the Met was commissioned to prepare a report on the links between legal weapons and crime. His conclusion was that of seized weapons used in crime, less than 1% had ever been legal. This was not what the establishment wanted the report to say so the results were sat on. No doubt anyone with more interest in weapons than I can verify this. I understand the report was eventually published. I do remember that just after the Dunblane tragedy a Glasgow reporter told of the weaponry for sale in a pub - including a double barrelled automatic shotgun! Does such an animal exist? As others have said, I do not believe that the increasing use of guns by the criminal fraternity in the UK has anything to do with our gun laws. If the fairly stringent controls prevent someone like the killer of the Amish girls in the US, or Peter Hamilton at Dunblane from running amok - then let's have them the way they are! Eddie |
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03 Oct 06 - 12:26 PM (#1849326) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha Gervase is correct that major gun crime in England occours with the black gangs in large cities like Manchester, Birmingham and London. The situation is getting worse an the police seem powerless to stop it, there is no way that young blacks will co-operate with the authorities, as they feel isolated, mainly due to harrassment from the police. |
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03 Oct 06 - 12:43 PM (#1849341) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: John MacKenzie Sorry Ard, while you are right that the young blacks have a bit more attention from the boys in blue, this is largely due to the existence in their culture of anti authoritarian habits. Ally this with a strange almost pathological requirement to be respected by others, and the fact that people have reportedly been killed in that community for 'dissing' [disrespecting], another member of that community. A macho, anti authoritarian society is always going to attract the attention of the forces of law and order. Giok |
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03 Oct 06 - 12:45 PM (#1849344) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Mr Fox Big Mick wrote "I agree that the culture of Great Britain is different than the culture of the US. My simplistic historic view of why is that there was a need by monarchs to disarm the populace as a method of control." Didn't work for Charles I. |
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03 Oct 06 - 12:53 PM (#1849351) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle Maybe so, maybe England is as bad as you say Ard - possibly worse. But I still don't want guns to be more freely available. All youth is disaffected - that's their job. I taught for years in the inner city, and I don't remember the black youths being any more criminally inclined than the white ones. in fact most of the church going types were black. as for police harrassment. the cops stay out of those areas - they leave the job of harrassing to the teachers. |
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03 Oct 06 - 12:57 PM (#1849353) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: McGrath of Harlow Gun culture in Ireland is a lot closer to that of the UK than it to that in the USA, which rather undermines that "simplistic historic view". The fact that people may see guns as appropriate for fighting the government in certain circumstances, does not imply that they need to see posession of guns as necessary to personal dignity (or whatever) in normal life. |
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03 Oct 06 - 01:14 PM (#1849361) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee Like others here, I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I have had one for many years now. I very rarely do so -- once, for instance, when I accompanied a friend to the bank as she made a deposit of the money from a festival (around USD 30,000), I carried concealed. There have been other times, few and far between. If I felt the need to pack a gun, I'd much rather do it openly. I can shave a bit off my draw (measured time, on a police range) that way. But ranges (and far too infrequently hunting) is where I carry a weapon (well, to fencing, but that's not the sort of thing I talking about here). Like Big Mick, I grew up with firearms. They were used to feed my family when I was young (yes, I kid about it, but we really WERE extremely short of cash). They are tools to use, like a hammer or a sickle, not solutions in themselves. And I hold those who present them as solutions instead of tools guilty of many things. By the way, an arrow kills by hemmorhage and a bullet by shock. An animal will die quicker and more humanely from a well-placed arrow than from a well-placed bullet -- and it is very rare indeed for an animal (including humans) to drop dead immediately. And a .50 caliber, 250 grain lead ball or Minie ball propelled by (perhaps) 70 grains of black powder WILL drop a 200 pound deer as effectively and quickly as a .30-06 with a 150 grain bullet. |
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03 Oct 06 - 01:38 PM (#1849387) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Mick Wrong premise, Kevin. Your analogy doesn't hold water. The Irish were never able to arm effectively, nor were they able to throw off the Crown shackles, in the same way as the Americans. The society formed around the fight, and the fight went on until recently. The US society was based on the defeat of the crown forces, in a historically "instant" way, the creating of a new governmental unit, with a brand new Constitution that incorporated many new ideals into some very old ones. It was a reaction to the Crown, and a determination to not come under the control of a monarchy again. Now we all know that it took until after the War of 1812 for it to gel, and we know that it was the "New Americans" of what was then the West of the United States that really defined the new American character. These were woodsmen, born of the frontier, steeped in the idea that they were not tied to the Crown. Andrew Jackson was their leader. The Irish struggle, and ultimate formation of the Irish Republic, came in a whole different way. |
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03 Oct 06 - 03:17 PM (#1849473) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: McGrath of Harlow If it's the "New Americans of the West" that really defined the new American character I'd think that the relevant enemy involved wouldn't have been the Crown, but the native inhabitants of the continent into which they were expanding. That of course didn't apply in the case of Ireland. Put that way it seems quite plausible. It's a pattern that recurs in some other settler societies. |
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03 Oct 06 - 04:22 PM (#1849522) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Prior to 1923, it was fairly commonplace for British police and a few citizens to carry a privately obtained personal firearm for defense. It was the rise of communism and the return from Europe of the WW1 veterans that brought in the first "gun controls" They did not work then, they have not worked since. Criminals will always have access to them. We were unable to disarm the IRA in 500 years of violent history. When I lived in England, many people owned illegal firearms, and it was fairly common thing to see people target shooting on isolated farms and moorland. Because it always was an expensive illegal sport, it was not as popular as archery or golf. I know of several people who owned firearms illegally; one of them a police officer of many years seniority who owned a WW2 9mm Sten gun and ammunition. In Peshawar they make them using foot operated lathes. You can buy very good quality reproductions of any type of automatic firearm in use today. With the type of machinery and steel available to the average North American, it would be a booming industry to manufacture these and sell them at high profit. Simply put, you cannot control guns, only people. http://www.world66.com/asia/southasia/pakistan/darraadamkhel/history |
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03 Oct 06 - 05:23 PM (#1849563) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST Simply put, you cannot control guns, only people. Great Sage, Dave (the ancient mariner) Pray tell us your great wisdom on how to control people. Thousands of years worth of leaders haven't been able to. The world awaits your answer. |
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03 Oct 06 - 05:27 PM (#1849565) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: McGrath of Harlow Obviously professional criminals aren't going to be put off having guns by laws, and there are ways of getting hold of them. But gun controls make it that bit harder - they can ensure that there aren't as many around to get stolen, for example, and those that are around are less easily accessible. And some of the most terrible gun murders, such as the Amish school massacre in Pennsylvania this week, or Dunblane, have been carried oput by people who were not professional criminals, and who used guns that had been obtained legally. |
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03 Oct 06 - 05:35 PM (#1849578) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Most people (myself included) obey the gun laws.....However we are not inclined to be murdered in our own homes, and probably would defend ourselves with what we own despite the law saying we should not. It was a point I made with tounge in cheek Guest ;-) |
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03 Oct 06 - 06:37 PM (#1849638) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: BanjoRay The link to the article on Swiss gun control showed the truth of it. In Switzerland everyone has to serve in the Swiss army on a part-time basis for part of their lives, and during this service they MUST keep a rifle at home. They have a very high rate of suicides and family murders. QED. Mick says Americans are not all gun toting cowboys. In June I was visiting Mount Airy, North Carolina and I person I met there showed me round his property. While we walked round his fishing pond I spotted a small black snake swimming in the water and pointed it out. The person whipped out a pistol and shot it before I could blink. The gun vanished equally quickly and we carried on with our walk. I realized then that I was truly abroad. I was told that in those parts you could by a gun at a car boot sale (they had a different term for it)with no permit or paperwork required for not much money. If you really needed to shoot a few Amish kids you could achieve it with very little effort. Ray |
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03 Oct 06 - 06:37 PM (#1849639) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Mick Actually, Kevin, you would have to study the history of the US during the War of 1812. Westerners in those days would be the Tennesseans, Kentuckians, Louisiana Purchase folks. These were, arguably, the ones that were the most ready to fight the Brits. They saw themselves as true Americans. In NYC and Boston, and throughout New England, there were many who still considered themselves Loyalists. They wanted the country to remain the original 13, and saw themselves as dependent on sea trade with England. It was the westerners who supported the President, and allowed the second war of independence to be successful. It was said of this war that they won independence in the Revolutionary War, but they proved they deserved in during the War of 1812. It was the British they fought, it was the Crown they fought, and their was a dramatic difference in tone between those who followed Andrew Jackson, and the New Englanders. The defining American attitude probably evolved more from the frontiersmen/soldiers than the Easterners. Mick |
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03 Oct 06 - 07:19 PM (#1849679) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: McGrath of Harlow Fighting the British and "the Crown", but surely over a more extended period, fighting, and being prepared to fight the people who were being displaced in the process of expansion by the settlers into parts of America where they hadn't previously been; and a sense that holding on to what had been taken from the people who were there previously was a matter for individuals and families rather than just for the government. |
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03 Oct 06 - 09:50 PM (#1849758) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Mick Yes, at a later date, that was all true. But the subject of this thread isn't westward expansion and displacement of native peoples. That is certainly a thread worthy of having. The only reason this was brought up by me was to give what I believe was the genesis of the American view on owning guns. It lies in part, IMO, with the very concept of the populace never again being unarmed in the face of oppression. I believe it also lies in the frontier ideals of survival and hunting. This wasn't all that long ago. I was raised by depression era folks. Hunting and fishing for my Da and his brothers had to do with eating. And we, to this day, eat every single animal or fish we take. My father stressed humane kills, using everything you take from the woods, leaving the woods cleaner than you found it in terms of litter, never killing wantonly, and never wasting ammunition. Mick |
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04 Oct 06 - 08:35 AM (#1850010) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Grab I believe it also lies in the frontier ideals of survival and hunting. I think that's the key to the difference - Britain hasn't had this "frontier ideal" for centuries, since the ancient forests became deer parks. Mick, I disagree with you (as you know ;-) about legal ownership, because although the legal owners might not be the criminals (although the example of Switzerland makes that questionable for violence against friends and family), it increases the pool of guns to which a criminal could get access. I have to say though that I don't have any evidence for it though, so it's just my gut feeling. Eddie's point about whether illegal guns were ever stolen is very interesting, and is certainly something which might make me change my mind. For the UK though, private gun ownership is low enough (and the guns are stashed in safe enough places) that stolen guns can't be a significant source for criminals. For comparison, I'd be *very* interested in knowing what proportion of illegally-held (or more importantly, illegally-used) guns in the US are stolen. If the US example shows that most illegal guns have come in from Mexico, Russia or wherever, then my position is clearly wrong. But if the US example shows that more illegal guns were *once* legal and were stolen from their owners, then restriction on gun ownership (or at least restriction on gun storage to being kept in a safe in a well-secured armoury) is very likely to reduce criminal use by getting rid of that possible source. So would anyone be able to get numbers on that? Graham. |
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07 Oct 06 - 02:49 AM (#1852517) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Gurney Shambles, my personal information about Britain is well out of date, but 30 years ago, deer in most of Britain were 'stalked,' not 'hunted.' The terminology was used by the people who did it, because they mostly stalked over open moorland, not by waiting by a forest clearing. Long wet crawls upwind through sopping heather, long shots at shy animals. Rifle business without a doubt. It has probably changed now. When I was growing up there, carrying a gun (just carrying, not even presenting) in the pursuance of a crime (terminology something like that) meant an legislated automatic DOUBLING of the sentence. Does this still happen? Gun crime was rare then. Favoured weapon was a pick-axe handle..... Here in NZ a good deal of gun crime involves stolen, cut-down sporting weapons, but there are military and hand weapons used, usually by career criminals. We also have had instances of gun-nuts running with their 'collectors weapons.' |
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07 Oct 06 - 04:37 AM (#1852545) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle there are more gun incidents nowadays. society took a huge downward movement in the Thatcher years. Because of the ruthless way her policies were implemented, for the first time there were lots homeless on the streets. Places like the Nottinghamshire mining villages became the centre for the hard drugs trade - the introduction of which to England was her other crowning achievement. Dealers from Sheffield would come out to places like that to score. Those places had been pretty much unpoliceable before - big tough miners had their own codes of justice. when the mines went, hard drugs took their place. So Nottingham became the gun crime capital of England. However having said that, if you're not in the drugs business, you have very little chance of encountering anyone with a gun. For most of us life is still pretty much as it has always been. Although its unquantifiably more dangerous for young kids. |
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07 Oct 06 - 12:29 PM (#1852793) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Grab Re the "supply-and-demand" thing, there was an interesting article in NewScientist this week about this. Turns out that cheap guns from a particular shop took an average of just 90 days to be used in crimes (or more accurately, to be recovered by police after crimes). When the shop stopped selling them, legal guns stopped turning up in crimes. Link here. Sadly it doesn't say whether gun crime overall went down as a result or whether criminals found another source, which seems a bit of an omission. Graham. |
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07 Oct 06 - 12:54 PM (#1852810) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe they could start putting out defective guns, which were liable to explode in the hand when fired... |
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23 Jun 12 - 02:23 PM (#3367123) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: SPB-Cooperator This week there was a suspected gang-related shooting less than half a mile from where I was working. One person was killed and the other critically injured. Thios will seem a bit of a rant, but..... The murder weapon at some stage would have been manufactured and sold for profit that would have been distributed to shareholders. Therefore a number shareholders would have profited on the back of the murder. Therefore, shouldn't the weapons manufacturers, anbd every person who profitted from the sale of the murder weapoin be an accessory to murder and suffer the full consequence of the law - which is nothing compared with the victim and his loved ones? End of rant bit. On a matter of curiosity my local paper had a quote from a resident who was not allowed to pass the police cordon to return to her flat in the same place where the murder took place. My question is therefore, if the policedo not allow people to pass the cordon, and if uit means they have nowhere to sleep, who has the responsibility for providing and paying for temporary accomodation? |
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23 Jun 12 - 03:15 PM (#3367146) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,kendall We recently spent three weeks in England, and I have to say, it was the first time that I felt a bit uneasy, especially in London. I was told by a resident that if I or Jacqui was mugged I did not have the right to deck that bastard. He can commit robbery but I can't commit assault. I told the resident that I would do it and be on the next plane. |
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23 Jun 12 - 03:48 PM (#3367160) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee So if a driver runs his or her car over someone, the stockholders should bear part of the cost/blame? Keep that line of thought up and you'll start sounding like the US Congress. |
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23 Jun 12 - 03:52 PM (#3367162) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Megan L Orkney deals with armed raider Armed hold up |
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23 Jun 12 - 08:20 PM (#3367224) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall Store keepers in America have a way of "Culling" the low life bastards who try to rob them. |
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23 Jun 12 - 10:17 PM (#3367256) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""I agree that the culture of Great Britain is different than the culture of the US. My simplistic historic view of why is that there was a need by monarchs to disarm the populace as a method of control."" A false premise! The UK has never since the establishment of the "Constitutional Monarchy" had a King or Queen with the power to disarm any citizen. UK citizens who chose to do so carried arms freely until the 1920s, when licensing was introduced. Even before this time the number of people with personal weapons, i.e. hand guns, was very small. It had diminished gradually from the late Victorian era, as the police forces became more and more effective. Somebody up thread pointed out that only 1% of the illegal arms in the UK had ever been legally owned, and seemed to be suggesting that therefore our gun laws were somehow deficient. In fact it's a no brainer. If hardly anybody in the country owns a legal hand gun, there ain't many for the criminals to steal. Increase the number of legal guns and the number stolen and used for crime will increase. Don T. |
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23 Jun 12 - 10:28 PM (#3367259) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""I was told by a resident that if I or Jacqui was mugged I did not have the right to deck that bastard. He can commit robbery but I can't commit assault."" He/she sadly misinformed you. UK law recognises the use of "reasonable force" in self defence or defence of another person or persons. If your mugger uses his fists, you are perfectly at liberty to defend with fists and feet as necessary. What you can't do is belt him with a baseball bat, stick a knife in him, or shoot him. If however he has a gun you may use whatever you have to hand to fend him off, but you can't continue to attack if he turns tail and runs. That is no longer defensive action. Richard Bridge could expand on that considerably (and probably point out some errors in my post), but your informant is wrong to imply that you have NO right to defend yourself. Were that the case, the muggers would only need to line up and lift your wallet as you walk past. Don T. |
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24 Jun 12 - 04:14 AM (#3367304) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "Store keepers in America have a way of "Culling" the low life bastards who try to rob them." Doesn't seem to work though does it? Surely the basic facts that the US and UK are similar societies yet you are much less likely to be murdered in the UK, whether by firearms or not, means that American people can't really criticise the UK's way of protecting its citizens. They should be much more worried about what is happening in their own back yard. Just saying! |
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24 Jun 12 - 04:49 AM (#3367313) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: DMcG Two days ago, someone came up to my daughter and said theateningly "Give me that phone!" She said, "What? No" in an astonished tone ... and he simply left. I'm not sure it would be an effective response in general - I suspect he might have been on a mugger training scheme! - but its a good example that leaping to a violent response is not always necessary. |
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24 Jun 12 - 05:15 AM (#3367317) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: theleveller Thankfully we don't have the ridiculous and murderous US machismo gun culture in this country nor are most people interested in having the right to own a gun. As has been stated, criminals will always be able to get guns but not as easily as if they were readily available. I still think the laws need to be tightened as there are still some nutters who have been able to get shotgun licences. Even the police are using conventional firearms less, with the advent of the long-distance tasar. Personally, I hate guns - but then, I've got a vested interest: my son's a police firearms officer with the Rapid Response Unit. |
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24 Jun 12 - 05:44 AM (#3367326) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall Don, I think my informant was just voicing his resentment of immigrants and Travelers by giving them rights that don't exist. Machismo? I saw a friend's new purchase that he bought at a gun show, a Glock 9 banana clip. THAT is offensive even to a guy who supports the second amendment. In this country, if you kill someone you had better be prepared to convince a jury that you felt that your life was in immediate peril. America is not populated by a gang of witless cowboys as is believed by many foreigners.They get all the bad press because that's what sells newspapers. Many Americans think that all Brits wear bowler hats and say,"Bloody good show, eh what"? Ignorance is international. |
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24 Jun 12 - 05:54 AM (#3367330) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Dave Hanson Bloody good show kendall. Dave H |
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24 Jun 12 - 07:43 AM (#3367347) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: theleveller "America is not populated by a gang of witless cowboys as is believed by many foreigners." Maybe not, but that's the impression I get from quite a few of the posts on Mudcat. |
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24 Jun 12 - 10:19 AM (#3367374) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,999 The cowboys are elected to office and they then send proxies to murder people. |
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24 Jun 12 - 11:16 AM (#3367395) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle Well I'm pretty sure that if we had 'the right to bear arms' in this country, all the nutters that you see screaming their heads off at each other on the Jeremy Kyle show would be queuing up to buy a gun. We would have just as many dead people from gun related incidents as the USA did. As for the comparison with Ireland. God alone knows how making guns available the Catholic and Protestant murder gangs would have improved the situation. 'Thrown off the English oppressor' - its a great line. would that we could get thrown off! By the 1970's (forty years ago!) I'd say all English people were thoroughly pissed off with their Irish neighbours' inability to get on with each other, and REALLY pissed off with our young soldiers, prison officers, and policemen getting murdered for who knows what. The gun laws in England probably don't work as well as they should - its like the health services. They're worth theri weight in gold. |
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24 Jun 12 - 11:17 AM (#3367396) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T It is true that those who cause all bad press are a tiny minority of any civilised population. Unfortunately, while the Media approach all events from the perspective that ""GOOD NEWS IS NO NEWS!!"", that tiny minority will dominate almost all news outlets. Sad but true, if you want to be a Media celebrity, be a crook, a bigot, or simply cultivate an arrogant arsehole personality. Do something good, selfless, or just be nice, and they will totally ignore you. Don T. |
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24 Jun 12 - 11:18 AM (#3367398) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: number 6 as I said before in a previous thread of this nature ... and I'll say it again ... "so to say the whole of the U.S. is murder central in the global sphere is rather biased ... that perception is based on the the cowboy gunslinger image that is presented in the mainstream media, movies, T.V. programs etc. .... yes, the U.S. has many problems these days and we all like to point our fingers at that them, but they as a country are not more violently inclined as a people than many other parts of the world." biLL |
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24 Jun 12 - 11:50 AM (#3367414) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle Who could disagree, number 6. Most Americans, I have met, have been delightful people. However the armaments industry has your country by the bollocks. It finances the campaigns of politicians and asks in return the key to the tax coffers. How much was it - about fifteen dollars - every bullet fired in Vietnam cost the American tax payer? I guess inflation will have upped that for Afghanistan. 'This 'right to bear arms' is a bit like the right to smoke in public and advertise tobacco products. Its against the public interest. It costs the lives of too many decent people. |
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24 Jun 12 - 11:57 AM (#3367417) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall Ok, let's talk about other weapons. Knife crimes are quite popular in the UK, Are their victims less dead than someone who got shot?? |
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24 Jun 12 - 12:13 PM (#3367423) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: DMcG Not a good argument, there, kendall. If one means of killing people isn't as well regulated as another, I'd say that's a case for increasing the control of the one, not decreasing the regulation of the other. Also, while both can certainly kill, I would guess that a greater proportion of people survive a knife attack than a gun attack ... so yes, the victims are 'less dead', statistically, if that guess if right. |
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24 Jun 12 - 12:16 PM (#3367426) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: theleveller Well, that's true. Kendall. I wonder why it is that the military don't ditch their guns and go back to swords and knives. |
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24 Jun 12 - 12:35 PM (#3367433) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Ok, let's talk about other weapons. Knife crimes are quite popular in the UK, Are their victims less dead than someone who got shot??"" Disingenuous Captain. As far as I know "DEAD" is an absolute. It has no degrees. The proportion of victims who survive knife attacks is much larger than for gunshot victims. So the answer to your question is that those who are dead are just as dead, but many more of them are not dead at all. You could take that ad absurdum argument to the point of banning nylon stockings because it is possible to strangle someone, or ban baseball bats, golf clubs and chair legs, all of which have been used to kill. The real point is that guns kill at a distance beyond arm's reach, they are the most certain way to ensure somebody dies and the only effective defence is another gun. BTW knife killings too are mostly gang and/or drugs related, and the chance of the ordinary UK man in the street being either shot or stabbed is very small. Just between ourselves, many of us in the UK are quite happy for gang members and drug dealers to remove each other from the gene pool. Don T. |
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24 Jun 12 - 12:55 PM (#3367437) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T It is also worth pointing out that when opponents tackle each other with knives, they rarely stab anyone other than their target. Firing a gun on the street can result in the death of anyone within the effective range of the weapon, from a five year old child on a swing, to a passing teenage cyclist, as has occasionally happened, especially as gang members tend to be fans of Bruce Willis or Stephen Segal, and spray bullets quite indiscriminately. Why would we want to increase the likelihood of that kind of situation? No Sir, you keep the guns and keep persuading yourself that they are a good thing to have. The single most stupid comment I ever heard from a supposedly rational human being was the reaction of a father to the loss of his student son in one of the many college mass killings of recent years in the USA. On TV this man said ""I wish I'd bought my boy a gun and taught him to use it. Then he would still be alive"" I wanted to take hold of him and shake him till he rattled, then tell him ""If another father had the sense not to buy his boy a gun and teach him to use it, your boy would indeed still be alive"" Don T. |
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24 Jun 12 - 01:46 PM (#3367471) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: gnu Don... agreed... a very stupid comment. |
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24 Jun 12 - 04:28 PM (#3367515) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle 'Knife crimes are quite popular in the UK' well more popular than English folk music, but less popular than David Cameron.... |
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24 Jun 12 - 04:35 PM (#3367516) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Megan L Me I would rather live in a place where the policeman sits down for a coffee with you.Where he drops past to tell you someone has complained about something the kids have painted on the side of the house and will be by in 2 hours to check out the complaint. Where i never have to lock my door. Where I can pick up any walker if it starts to rain. Where the girls in the local cafe will pop along to the chemist to pick up my prescription if the weather is to rough for me. Where folk phone to check i am ok if they don not see me for a few days. OH WAIT A MINUTE I do |
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24 Jun 12 - 04:52 PM (#3367525) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall I was being silly to make a point. |
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25 Jun 12 - 02:38 AM (#3367635) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "Knife crimes are quite popular in the UK, Are their victims less dead than someone who got shot??" No of course not a murder is a murder. The simple fact though is that there is a far higher murder rate in the US than here in the UK. Hence the odd occassion where you get a poster suggesting that the UK system doesn't protect the citizen doesn't really wash. West Central Scotland is plagued by knife crime. Common sense says it would be much worse if all the neds were running about with guns. |
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25 Jun 12 - 03:01 AM (#3367639) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle west central.....where would that be? one tends to think, its either west or its central... |
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25 Jun 12 - 04:15 AM (#3367661) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: SPB-Cooperator "So if a driver runs his or her car over someone, the stockholders should bear part of the cost/blame?" Which has been designed with the purpose of killing, a gun or a car? |
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25 Jun 12 - 06:05 AM (#3367675) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "west central.....where would that be?" The west of the area known as the Central Lowlands or Central Belt. Centring on Glasgow. I live in the Southern Uplands. so I'm talking about the western end of the area directly to the north of me! It is common usage in Scotland. |
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25 Jun 12 - 07:21 AM (#3367692) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle Hi Al just got the map in front of me - so would you say its just Glasgow, or as far west as Greenock where all the knives are -as far north as Stirling (love Stirling!) , Alloa, Falkirk. I used to see knives when I was teaching in Nottingham -but it never really caught on with IQ's above room temperature. I think in America, the gun lobby has some quite repectable people on its side. There wouldn't be a knife lobby in England, or Scotland. This is America's problem. The nutters seem to have some quite posh defenders. al |
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25 Jun 12 - 08:05 AM (#3367708) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn From the Scottish govt's stats for 2011 there were 95 murders in Scotland of which 61 were in the Strathclyde Police Force area. The city of Glasgow with an estimated 12% of the population of Scotland itself had about 27% of the total murders. There were 97 victims (not quite sure why the discrepency of 2) and 61 of the vicitms died from a sharp instrument. Only 2 from firearms! You are seemingly twice as likely to knifed to death in Scotland than you are in England. However the stats also show that 88% of people are killed by people they know and not strangers. Scotland is a pretty safe place to visit. It doesn't break it down further as far as areas go but I'd imagine the real hot spots are the real urban areas close to Glasgow rather than the more rural parts of Strathclyde much of which is idyllic. |
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25 Jun 12 - 10:16 AM (#3367747) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee According to the last UN crime statistics I saw (yesterday!), the US rate of homicide by firearms was 3 per 100,000 people. This was exactly the same as that of Lichtenstein!! The statistics were for 2010; the US rate has been falling since 1998, I can't speak to Lichtenstein. |
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25 Jun 12 - 10:51 AM (#3367756) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T According to official US sources the number of people murdered by gun in the US has fallen from 10,158 in 2005, to 8,775 in 2010. That doesn't seem to be much of an improvement, after all, we're not talking about pizzas or car production. THIS IS ABOUT FATHERS, MOTHERS, BROTHERS AND SISTERS.......PEOPLE! In 2010, out of a total of 12,996 murdered people, 8,775 were shot to death. That is 67.5% of the total murders. Yes, guns are indeed a good thing, if you're into compulsory population control. Don T. |
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25 Jun 12 - 11:31 AM (#3367769) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: MGM·Lion Al ~~ What exactly is your directional problem? Do you suffer the same puzzlement about East Midlands & West Midlands? Regards ~M~ |
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25 Jun 12 - 11:45 AM (#3367773) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle What is it makes Scots homicidal? The porridge or Maries Song Bridal But with claymores and dirks They'll give you the works So sharp objects, you'd better just hide all. |
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25 Jun 12 - 12:12 PM (#3367783) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "the US rate of homicide by firearms was 3 per 100,000 people. This was exactly the same as that of Lichtenstein!!" I've no idea about Lichtenstein but you do realise that the rate you mention is horrendous! And that is only firearm deaths! Scotland's rate for total murders is 1 per 54,123. Your own figure states than it is 1 per 33,333 in the States for firearms alone. Do you think that is good? Scotland's rate is also down about 30% from a decade or so ago! |
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25 Jun 12 - 12:32 PM (#3367793) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "the US rate of homicide by firearms was 3 per 100,000 people. This was exactly the same as that of Lichtenstein!! " Just a brief google shows that this statement is more than complacent - it is completely self delusional. The population of Liechtenstein is only 36,000 people. there were no murders in Liechtenstein in 2002. Hence it was the safest country on earth. If there was one murder last year then it comes in at about 3 per 100,000 people. Lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind. Common sense says you can't compare the stats of a tiny statelet to a massive country of many millions. |
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25 Jun 12 - 01:47 PM (#3367819) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee I wondered how long it would take to figure that out. It was exactly my point. Now compare the US with Mexico (10/100k), Colombia (27.1), Brazil (18.1), Argentina (3), Venezuela (39). The UN report says that homicides by firearm, mostly of males under 30, is at crisis levels. I do not deny the figures or that they are atrocious. But let's also keep them in perspective when discussing this topic. |
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25 Jun 12 - 02:24 PM (#3367826) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle Yeh and I bet the USA is better than Nigeria. Rap, for heaven's sake - you can't compare yourself to the worst places in the world. Raise the bar. |
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25 Jun 12 - 03:28 PM (#3367859) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee Let's see. The Small Arms survey (SmallArmsSurvey.org) reports: Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Germany, Italy, and the United States routinely report annual exports of small arms, light weapons, their parts, accessories, and ammunition worth USD 100 million or more. The Small Arms Survey estimates that China and the Russian Federation also routinely achieve this level of activity although Beijing and Moscow do not report doing so. In 2007, customs data alone indicated that these eight countries, along with Canada, Switzerland, Turkey, and the United Kingdom, exceeded USD 100 million in exports. and An analysis of customs data suggests that for the period 2001 to 2007 five countries—Canada, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, and the United States—routinely imported small arms, light weapons, their parts, accessories, and ammunition worth USD 100 million or more per year. Customs data also suggests that eight additional countries imported at least USD 100 million or more in at least one year during this seven-year period: Australia, Cyprus, Egypt, Japan, the Netherlands, South Korea, Spain, and the United Kingdom. A review of customs data shows that Italy routinely imported more than USD 50 million per year from 2001 to 2007. I am not in any way saying that the US is blameless -- far from it! But it's not the only player, even if it is the biggest (and that doesn't thrill me either). The United States is by far the biggest documented importer of small arms. During the seven-year period under review, US imports ranged from USD 571 million (in 2002) to more than USD 1 billion (in 2007). The next-largest recorded importer was Germany, averaging USD 110 million. The largest single-year value recorded for imports by a country other than the United States during this seven-year period was USD 261 million by Saudi Arabia (in 2001). |
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25 Jun 12 - 03:41 PM (#3367868) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Little Hawk Just wait till Chongo gets elected. You ain't seen nothin' yet. |
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25 Jun 12 - 03:49 PM (#3367872) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Jack the Sailor "In this country, if you kill someone you had better be prepared to convince a jury that you felt that your life was in immediate peril." Stand you ground laws" are an attempt to make it easier to claim this. |
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25 Jun 12 - 04:21 PM (#3367878) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Jack the Sailor Those often repeated "Chongo" jokes are always fresh, unexpected and exciting. |
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25 Jun 12 - 04:25 PM (#3367882) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp This means I got yer vote in November? - Chongo |
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26 Jun 12 - 02:15 AM (#3368070) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "I do not deny the figures or that they are atrocious. But let's also keep them in perspective when discussing this topic" I'm keeping them completely in perspective though. All I said was that you sometimes have claims from US posters that the UK somehow doesn't protect its citizens when in fact the murder rate in the UK is way below that of the US despite us being similar type societies. Whatever we're doing we must be doing something right. The fact that there are other nations (ie Columbia and Mexico etc) where things are even worse is neither here nor there. |
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26 Jun 12 - 04:21 AM (#3368091) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle MGM - I have the poorest sense of direction of anybody I know. Its inherited - my Mother thought Cornwall was on the eastern side of the country. |
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26 Jun 12 - 07:42 AM (#3368129) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: IanC I'm not sure why we shouldn't let the facts speak for themselves by just doing a simple comparison of the USA and the UK, both fairly populous places and with a similar culture, with the exception of gun laws and the attitude to firearms (which I think is perhaps more significant). In the USA, for 2010, there were a total of 12,996 murdered people. With a population of 308,745,538, this amounts to 40.2 per million murdered with 67.5% (8,775) of these being shot to death. In the UK, for 2010, there were a total of 773 people murdered. With a population of 62,262,000, this amounts to 11.5 per million with loess than 9% (103) of these being shot to death. If the number of people shot to death in the USA was reduced to the same level as in the UK, it would reduce the US murder rate to only about twice what it is in the UK instead of 4 times. I think it would be wise for people in glass houses not to throw stones about UK gun laws. Ian |
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26 Jun 12 - 10:15 AM (#3368179) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee How many of these deaths, in both countries, are tied to drugs and drug trafficking? |
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26 Jun 12 - 10:37 AM (#3368185) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee Whatever we're doing we must be doing something right. The fact that there are other nations (ie Columbia and Mexico etc) where things are even worse is neither here nor there. I do not throw stones at the UK gun laws, nor do I believe that any laws in one country will work in another without extensive social preparation. But the above quotation seems to me to have all of the Victorian "We must bring Civilization and Enlightenment to the wogs!" attitude that England (and, yes, the US) that should have died ages ago. Shall we talk about assaults, rapes, and other violent crime -- the stuff that made Britain "the most dangerous country in Europe"?? Or the conviction rates for rape? |
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26 Jun 12 - 11:14 AM (#3368206) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "We must bring Civilization and Enlightenment to the wogs!" Actually you are going all over the place here. I did not bring these other countries up - you did. You stated that their stats were worse than the US. I simply pointed out that it is irrelevant when talking about the comparison between the US and UK. I simply stated that the fact that the murder rate in the UK is so far below that in the US that it makes no sense when Americans suggest, as they sometimes do, that the UK does not protect its citizens. Neither did I suggest that the UK is not a violent place. In fact I particularly pointed out the problem of knife violence in Scotland. The plain fact though is that this violent country still has a low murder rate in comparison to the US. That is the point! |
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26 Jun 12 - 01:50 PM (#3368273) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Stu ""We must bring Civilization and Enlightenment to the wogs!" Hmmm. You can't talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand. Well, not openly anyway. Pretty offensive, rather wide of the mark and . . . oh well. " the murder rate in the UK is way below that of the US despite us being similar type societies." But as any fule kno who's visited one to the other of either countries from either both the above statements are total shite, born of ignorance. Although we speak the same language we are certainly not the same society, not the same culture and with both have differing values. That's not a judgement on either country, it just is. I have friends in the US who are into guns big style, and don't understand I really am not comfortable handling guns, or blanch at the idea of having a collection of firearms in the house. When I'm in the US, I simply can't imagine that a fair number of people around me might be carrying a gun. |
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26 Jun 12 - 02:34 PM (#3368288) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall Owning a gun does not make you a Nutter. |
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26 Jun 12 - 03:35 PM (#3368319) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Megan L Well thankfully Scotland and last I heard England were not American states no matter how much certain folk in high places there appear to think they are. Our country Our laws. |
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26 Jun 12 - 03:37 PM (#3368321) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: John MacKenzie Guns are shit |
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26 Jun 12 - 04:42 PM (#3368342) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Rapparee The comment about "wogs" was intentional, as it often seems that UKers feel that they and their way of life is superior to that of folks elsewhere. Truly, it does. Laws regarding the ownership and use of firearms (or any weapon) reflect the history and social matrix of a country. In truth, I think that the US should require ALL gun owners (and purchasers) to complete a comprehensive training course, including psycho-social evaluation, before a permit to own a firearm is issued. Unfortunately, this chance passed the US by in about 1959 and given the climate today it's not feasible right now. I should have known better and kept my promise to myself not to mix in political discussions. I'll do so in the future. |
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26 Jun 12 - 07:28 PM (#3368415) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""The comment about "wogs" was intentional, as it often seems that UKers feel that they and their way of life is superior to that of folks elsewhere. Truly, it does."" Have another look at the thread title, then use your cognitive faculties to figure out who is belittling whom. Don T. |
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26 Jun 12 - 07:34 PM (#3368418) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall No, John. those who misuse them are shit. It was the actions of the Redcoats before and during our revolution that caused the wide spread ownership of guns. When they marched out of Boston to seize the guns and powder that belonged to the colonists in Concord and Lexington, that is what really tore the rag off the bush. How did they expect them to hunt their food without a gun? Did they think Deer meat came from gardens? Were they expected to hunt waterfowl with a stick? |
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26 Jun 12 - 10:45 PM (#3368493) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle 'It was the actions of the Redcoats before and during our revolution that caused the wide spread ownership of guns.' with respect, you've had a fair bit of time to recover from that trauma. |
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27 Jun 12 - 03:27 AM (#3368523) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Allan Conn "Although we speak the same language we are certainly not the same society, not the same culture and with both have differing values." Though again Jack to be fair I did not say we were the same society or suggest we were an identical society. I said we were similar type societies which is not the same thing! Thanks for pointing out that the other poster's remarks were wide of the mark though. Having the finger pointed at you suggesting you have racist tendencies was a bit much when all I did was say that the stats from other countries were not relevant to the debate in question. One may agree or disagree with my point but there was nothing racist about it. For a scot of course what irked more was the suggestion that I was English :-) Though I love the English enough to marry one of them - I am not myself English! |
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27 Jun 12 - 03:45 AM (#3368526) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: John MacKenzie Gee, I wonder how the (Native American)Indians killed deer and buffalo? |
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27 Jun 12 - 03:53 AM (#3368529) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: MGM·Lion Indeed, John: not with guns before Paleface arrived, that's for sure! ~M~ |
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27 Jun 12 - 04:26 AM (#3368538) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle going out for waterfowl and buffalo meat this morning, to the supermarket. Taking he Glock and the Uzi - so I may be some little time! If I can get a clean headshot, I'll go for that - otherwise, its the Visa debit card. |
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27 Jun 12 - 08:47 AM (#3368591) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall John, it's called progress. The Indians had a thousand years to perfect the bow and arrow method. The colonists used what they were familiar with. If I had my way, all automatic firearms would be banned, and all hand guns would also be banned. ALL, not just those that belong to solid citizens.Severe penalties for possession would deter many. |
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27 Jun 12 - 09:29 AM (#3368611) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall Check this out |
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27 Jun 12 - 10:13 AM (#3368619) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Penny S. Oh boy. Just when I thought that most in the United States were much more like me than the commonly publicised view on this issue. Where do those commentators get their stats about us from? Penny |
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27 Jun 12 - 11:27 AM (#3368655) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: John MacKenzie Ah, and if only all "solid citizens" remained solid. |
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27 Jun 12 - 12:16 PM (#3368675) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T It would seem that somebody is too stupid to realise that a compulsorily well trained military force does not equate in numbers or purpose to an unregulated, untrained, armed to the teeth citizenry. In which of the two circumstances would an objective observer feel that he had reason for fear? Don T. |
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27 Jun 12 - 12:46 PM (#3368698) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: McGrath of Harlow I'm quite ready to believe that most gun-owners in the United Sates aren't nuts, and that the nuts are a small and unrepresentative minority. What puzzles me is why they seem willing to allow this small and unrepresentative minbority of nuts who control the NRA to speak for them, and to get in the way of bringing in the kind of sensible gun controls that any gun-owner who isn't a nut would want to see. |
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27 Jun 12 - 02:03 PM (#3368740) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall It's the old "Camel's nose under the tent flap" fear, the "foot in the door" clap trap. The NRA feeds on fear and lies. If the government can take a nutballs guns, when will they come for mine? Gun nuts vote, and the gutless po9liticians cater to them with tales of how they will protect our rights to buy as many guns as we will need when the government takes away all our rights. If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance. Ignorance breeds fear and fear breeds hate. (And the haters breed) |
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27 Jun 12 - 02:42 PM (#3368758) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Howard Jones I suspect a great many of my parents' generation had unlicensed guns tucked away somewhere as souvenirs of the War. We certainly did - we had a small .22 unrifled gun which my father had deactivated and which I played cowboys or soldiers with, on strict instructions not to take it out of the back garden to where someone might see it. We also had my great-grandfather's .38 police revolver (he'd been a sergeant in Battersea Police in the 1890s) which was kept in a box in the attic. We had no ammunition for either, and there was no question of using either for defence. My father got rid of the .22 after I left home, and when they made possession punishable by a mandatory 5-year sentence I surrendered the .38 to the police. I hope it made it's way to the Metropolitan Police Museum but I never heard anything. My point is that these guns weren't kept to be used and in many cases were incapable of being used. Neither that generation nor mine feel the need to arm ourselves for self-defence. If my house is burgled or if I am mugged it is very unlikely that the criminal will be carrying a gun (although a mugger may have a knife) and they in turn can be fairly confident that I won't either. It's the opposite of the Cold War's Mutually Assured Destruction. I accept that there is a culture of gun and knife violence in some sections of our society, and that innocent bystanders who live in the affected areas may not feel as safe in their homes or on the streets as I generally do. But I truly believe that to most of us it has simply never occurred to us to arm ourselves for self-defence. . The UK has a largely urban population, and there is no widespread culture of hunting with guns (except in rural areas). We don't have dangerous animals which we need to protect ourselves from. As for national defence, perhaps we are naive but I believe most of us have confidence in our armed forces. Perhaps the fact that they owe their allegiance to the Crown rather than to the government of the day helps. From this side of the water, I can fully understand the circumstances which in the early days of the United States made the right to bear arms seem to be a necessity. However circumstances have changed, US society has moved on, and now the apparent obsession with the right to own a gun seems to be quaint and outdated, a throwback to a frontier society which mostly no longer exists. |
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27 Jun 12 - 08:38 PM (#3368888) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall Howard, where you stand depends on where you are standing. We would never allow the government to have that much control over any of our rights.In other words, we just don't trust the bastards! |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:24 AM (#3368995) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Howard Jones Kendall, that seems to be a common response from your compatriots. But surely the point of having a government is to balance individual rights against the interests of the wider community? If the rights of the individual are always paramount, you have anarchy. I don't suppose we're any more trusting of our politicians than you are of yours, but I don't usually feel that my rights are under threat - at least not in ways which can't be addressed through the usual democratic means. In particular, I don't feel the loss of my right to bear arms because I don't feel the need to bear arms in the first place. It's an interesting reflection on how different our societies really are. You find it reassuring that you have the right to bear arms, I find it reassuring that I don't need to. |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:39 AM (#3369001) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST An excellent response. Totally logical. I've said it before and I'll repeat, If I had the power to make all guns disappear, I would. Next on my list, Electric instruments Haggis Egg plant Celery All rap "music" All rock and roll TV commercials. Unmuffled Motorcycles. I hope my point is obvious. No one should have that power, and no government should have it either. |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:50 AM (#3369005) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Stu "We would never allow the government to have that much control over any of our rights.In other words, we just don't trust the bastards!" Is this true though? Your government, like ours on the UK is not acting in the best interests of the citizenry but largely for corporate gain, a gradual take over of governance which is virtually complete (as the failure in Rio demonstrates), unaccountable and not concerned with social responsibility. If the US is awash with guns so the citizens can hold the government to account, then you've all been fast asleep, or (as with us here), have been conned so throughly the penny's only just beginning to drop. Lock and load. |
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28 Jun 12 - 11:54 AM (#3369099) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: GUEST,Howard Jones "No one should have that power, and no government should have it either. " But in a democracy that power is given to the government by the people. Sure, they may not always exercise that power very well or in a way you'd like, but they are accountable at the ballot box. Considering the noise Americans make about their democracy, and their efforts to impose it on other parts of the world, it seems that many of its citizens don't trust it. |
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29 Jun 12 - 06:38 AM (#3369475) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall We have met the enemy, and he is us. (Pogo) |
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19 Jul 12 - 08:30 AM (#3378697) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Jack Campin Homicide in England and Wales reaches its lowest level for 30 years: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384 "Offences such as pickpocketing, shoplifting and bicycle theft rose 2%, the only crime category to show a rise." even in the US you can't shoot a fleeing intruder in the back. Oh yes you can, as in this case from Texas in 1994: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-110798618.html ...except the guy wasn't even an intruder, he was trying to get help after being abducted. |
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19 Jul 12 - 02:29 PM (#3378841) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: goatfell listen to the song by eric bogle called keeper of the flame |
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19 Jul 12 - 04:22 PM (#3378882) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall You must never shoot a fleeing felon. He poses no immediate threat to you, and there is no reason to use deadly force. |
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19 Jul 12 - 05:21 PM (#3378901) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: Big Al Whittle Never shoot a fleeing crook Even if he's run amok nicked your money, killed the wife Cut your dick off with his knife Let him run off, with your dong To shoot the blighter would be wrong! |
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20 Jul 12 - 06:08 AM (#3379054) Subject: RE: BS: Great Britain's gun laws - Do they work? From: kendall Right. That's what courts are for. However, if you catch him "Red handed", that's a different story; then, he may pose a deadly threat to you and you have a right to defend yourself, or your wife's honor. If he doesn't have a weapon, it would be friendly of you to give him one. After you blow his fecking brains out. |