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12 Oct 06 - 09:46 AM (#1856751) Subject: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Divis Sweeney This morning saw the third suicide in my area within as many weeks. All young men in their twenties. I am told this latest one was due to a relationship break up, as were the other two. Suicide rates three times as high for young men as women. I visited the mental health unit this morning where I worked for 26 years and was speaking to staff about it. They said it's hard to take effective action to tackle the rising tide of male suicides, as very few of the victims ever come forward seeking help. Rarely do young men ask for help, those that have seem to find being "dumped" or cheated on by young women just too much to handle. Yes there are other reasons, but relationship problems seem to be top of the list. Three times as many young men as young women take their own lives. The number of women committing suicide fell by 41% over the past ten years. Men are known to be far less likely than women to ask for help if they have problems. One doctor told me a number of deaths recorded as road accidents are actually suicides. Cars driving into trees or walls. If a disease came down to earth and devoured this number of young men, I imagine it would be a talking point. I live in the North of Ireland, what is it like in your area ? |
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12 Oct 06 - 09:52 AM (#1856756) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Bunnahabhain Suicide has long been one of the leading causes of death amongst young men. The other major contender, War, has dropped away thanks to professional armies. Thus is from a Western perspective. US combat casulties in the last 3 years have been what, 2000 or so. Suicide rate amongs US young males is going to be way over that.... |
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12 Oct 06 - 09:59 AM (#1856764) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Rapparee The suicide rate IS way over that. One of the preferred ways these days seems to be "suicide by cop": you take a hostage or in some other way force the cops to kill you. Here, anyway, it's starting to fail. The cops are shooting such people with non-lethal "beanbag" rounds. A broken leg or badly bruised ribs, and both hostage and taker are still alive AND a cop doesn't need counseling. It's happened three times so far this year. And yes, the cops have been VERY well trained in the use of the "orange shotguns." |
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12 Oct 06 - 10:05 AM (#1856770) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST Stats in Canada in 1997: Males aged 15-24: 580 killed themselves. Females in the same age group: 90. |
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12 Oct 06 - 10:24 AM (#1856786) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: jacqui.c I think that this has a lot do to with the fact that women will share their troubles. Whether this is nature or nurture is open to discussion. There does still seem to be an attitude that 'boys don't cry' that may have something to do with it. Boys also seem to be more embarrassed about opening up to the way they feel. Girls, on the other hand, don't seem able NOT to tell their friends about their feelings! It's a damn good safety valve IMHO. |
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12 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM (#1856810) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Wolfgang In Germany, the suicide rates for males is roughly by a factor 2.5 higher than that of that of females. By googling I have found a source (in German that's why I don't link) telling that this pattern is world wide. The one known exception (there might be unknown exceptions of course, for in most countries there are no data available) is China. In that country, more females commit suicide which may be related (speculation in that article) to the low status of females in China. In Germany, the suicide rate among young males is exceptionally high. The reason for that is the conscripted army. Suicide is by far the most likely death for a German soldier. The two main reasons for that: separation from home which often leads to separation from a partner and the accessabilty of deadly weapons. The rate of attempted suicides of females is not so much lower (but still lower) than that of males but they are less "successful" than males. Suicide with a gun is the male method of choice and in comparison with other (female) methods it is much more deadly. A twenty year old German soldier will choose the gun and be successful, the respective female has no access to guns (in Germany) and may fail. Wolfgang |
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12 Oct 06 - 10:45 AM (#1856826) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Big Al Whittle One of the worse shocks I had was finding that my best friend from schooldays had killed himself, and his younger brother had done the same. I felt guilty. Should have kept in touch. Repaid his friendship, decency, been there for him. I only found out through Friends Reunited. I was chatting to an old school friend - also a folksinger. Three of our classmates that we knew of had done themselves in - out of a class of 28 or so. |
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12 Oct 06 - 10:52 AM (#1856836) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Wolfgang Just BTW, the number of suicides for young people is not particularly high compared to other age groups, most suicides are committed by over 60 year old people. But it looks different for the simple reason that young people rarely die from diseases, whereas old people do. In young people, suicides are the number one (or two, behind accidents) reason for death, whereas in older people other reasons for death dwarf the numbers of suicide. So, if you look at suicides in a how many of 100,000 per year way, you will find that young people are not more likely than old people to commit suicide. However, if you look at the data in a how many percent of that age group die by suicide way, then and only then it looks like a particular problem of young age. But that's a statistical artifact, for the same absolute number across age cohorts looks relatively higher in an age group in which natural death or death by disease is extremely rare. Wolfgang |
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12 Oct 06 - 10:58 AM (#1856846) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,Janie Divis, I no longer can cite the specific studies that have explored this issue in the past. And it may be there have been significant changes in the demographics of suicide. However, my memory is that more women attempt suicide than men. However, men are more likely to 'succeed' at suicide because they tend to use quicker and more violent means. More women overdose or cut their wrists, which leaves more time for discovery or second thoughts during which they call for help. Men are much more likely to use guns, hang themselves, or jump into traffic, these leave no extra time for discovery or a change of heart. It is also true that women are more likely to seek help and support than are men. I work in an outpatient mental health/substance abuse clinic. 75% to 80% of our mental health therapy patients are women. Interestingly, 75% to 80% of our substance abuse patients are men who are in treatment as a condition of probation or parole, and probably 65% to 70% of adolescents in treatment for any reason are male. Janie |
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12 Oct 06 - 11:00 AM (#1856851) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST Not so in Canada, Wolfgang. http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/health01.htm PLEASE NOTE: A sign will come up that says the table has been discontinued. Simply click OK in the box and the table will be viewable. |
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12 Oct 06 - 11:07 AM (#1856861) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST Interesting that relationship breakdowns is the most common reason. Little Miss Independent is the new woman. She does not feel the desire to enter into long term relationships and would tend to have a lot more casual relationships than her mothers generation. Many young men still tend to want long term relationships. If a marriage breaks down, most women tend to bounce back and carry on with their lives, where a lot of men tend to live in a one room flat and drift through life. We all know them. |
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12 Oct 06 - 11:09 AM (#1856864) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST We all know you, too. |
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12 Oct 06 - 11:57 AM (#1856939) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Ebbie My thoughts are conflicted on this subject. On the one hand I feel that the right to end one's life is the one that no one else should be able to take away. On the other, it is desperately sad that people kill themselves when they don't recognize that things change. If on the 'other side', we were able to see how very much one missed by ending one's life early, how silly would we feel having bailed because of a reaction to someone else that in 5 years' time we would have scarcely even remembered? Does anyone understand that sentence? |
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12 Oct 06 - 12:10 PM (#1856963) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,thurg I thought I submitted this very early in the thread but it obviously didn't make it through cyberspace so I'll try again. My apologies if it has become a little "dated"! I remember once coming across a statistic that indicated that a high proportion of young males who commit suicide are gay - the suggestion is that the stresses associated with social opprobrium are a factor, one would hope a diminishing factor. I don't really understand the genetics of the next point I'm going to make, but I won't let that stop me. Apparently, males have a higher genetic tendency to extremes; e.g., more mental retardation and more genius, more physical disability and more exceptional athleticism; more extreme mental illness or disorder that might lead to suicide ... A last point. Sometimes there almost seems a "blame the victim" tinge to the observation that males don't "share their feelings", and thus (according to the logic) end up killing themselves in disproportionate numbers. It is important to bear in mind that this male reticence is a constantly-reinforced social expectation. It is pointless to tell young men that they should be talking to people about their feelings without providing some sort of social setting in which it is safe to do so (I don't have anything specific in mind). Because, simply put, no one wants to hear men "whining" about their troubles. I think some of this is how we're genetically programmed: if you, a male, expose your vulnerabilities, some competing male may kill you and take your females; if you're female and your males expose their vulnerabilities, they may be killed and you taken over by the erstwile competition or left with no protectors and breadwinners (or meatwinners). I don't have the answer for how we get around all that. |
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12 Oct 06 - 12:14 PM (#1856967) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Ebbie Good points, thurg. |
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12 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM (#1856999) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST Men don't seek treatment because it's a blot on their record and hurts their chances of obtaining and keeping employment - the stigma of being weak and not being able to fulfill the traditional male role of providing for the family. |
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12 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM (#1857021) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Rapparee My old friend Margaret, one hot July afternoon, walked into the shed anf found her husband David (27) hanging dead from the rafters. A note said that he felt that it was the only way out and that no one else would be hurt by his passing. When last I knew, Margaret was in a mental hospital, her very fine mind irreparably damaged. Their two young sons were "wards of the state." Suicide, as it is usually practiced, is one of the most selfish acts I know of. (I'm not including "death with dignity".) A suicide, even one without family or friends, at the very least inconveniences cops, paramedics, and gravediggers and can very literally traumatize others. I also think that many suicides don't realize that it is real, it is forever, and that if successful there IS no chance to change your mind. As the man said, "I'd jump off the Empire State Building, but I worry about what would happen if I changed my mind on the way down." |
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12 Oct 06 - 02:37 PM (#1857083) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,thurg I recently heard the following anecdote from a writer on suicide - or on people who had survived falls from great heights, can't remember which. Anyway, he had talked to a man who had jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived. When asked what he had thought after he jumped, the man said, "The moment I was off the bridge, I had a sudden realization: there was not one thing wrong with my life that I couldn't fix, except for the fact that I had just jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge." As for the "selfishness" of suicide, it undoubtedly often is the supremely selfish act - however, I think that often those who commit suicide are, at that point, so self-absorbed that they are incapable of conceiving of the effect their act will have on others. In the case of young people, I just don't think they have any idea of the depths of trauma their deaths will cause their parents in particular, even when part of their motivation is to hurt their parents. I think it is useful to get the idea of the "selfishness" of suicide out there, but when looking at actual cases, it is probably not only more charitable but more accurate to consider them the product of mental illness (with some exceptions, e.g., suicide of a person facing terminal disease). |
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12 Oct 06 - 03:04 PM (#1857108) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Stilly River Sage Some months back, when looking for an obituary of a deceased former co-worker I accidentally landed on the public web page for the regional coroner's office. Each death recorded there has a sketch of a story--not a narrative, but in how the form is filled out. We know the name, date of birth and death, if they died with someone there or were found after the fact, if there were police involved. We learn where they lived, where the event occurred, and where they died. We frequently know how they died, if the coroner has to determine the cause of death. Most often on that daily page are the elderly and the newborn. Surprising how many babies die every day. There are a number of middle-aged men and women who to me seem very young to die, and I can only guess that they were killed by disease with their doctors in attendance because a cause won't be stated. The suicides are all ages, over about 10 years old. Yes, that young. I've seen suicides listed as young as 12 in the last six months. Many are young men, teens and early 20s. But women also and of varying ages. Many hang themselves in closets, a few have been found in trees and storage buildings. Many shoot themselves. The toxicology reports take a while so if I think to look back at dates 6 to 8 weeks back I might see that suicide by overdose occurred. Is it morbid to read the coroner's report? No moreso than reading the obituary. Many names at the coroner's office don't make it into the paper, and many in the obits never went through the coroner's office. It's a way to pause and consider life, and the hole that is created when it ends. It is so sad to see a young person snuff out their life because of depression and disappointment. I have dealt with depression myself, many people have, but I don't know the depth that leaves one considering suicide. I watch my children grow and go through relationships and have friends come and go and I offer to listen when they will share news and I keep my fingers crossed when they won't. No one is immune. Cherish friends and family always, because we don't know when the last day will be. I think reading the coroner's page has made me a more thoughtful, considerate person. SRS |
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12 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM (#1857144) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Divis Sweeney I saw more young deaths by their own hand than I care to remember. Relationships, drugs, gambling and drink the main reasons. Meeting the families after the event was always hard, they were asking question after question where they went wrong, of course it wasn't their fault, but try telling them that. |
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12 Oct 06 - 05:16 PM (#1857190) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: MARINER Almost every week our local paper carries reports of young men who have died "suddenly" or "tragically " , these are invariably suicides . The new section in the local cemetary where my wife is buried are mainly graves of young people , teens ,twenties and thirties . This part is only five years old and according to the caretaker almost all of them are suicides ,many of the remainder victims of car crashes .In reply to the original posting , that's what it's like in my area . I live in the south east of Ireland |
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12 Oct 06 - 05:21 PM (#1857195) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST The numbers of Native North Americans is even higher. |
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12 Oct 06 - 05:46 PM (#1857217) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Little Hawk You're quite right, Ebbie. (your post of 12 Oct 06 - 11:57 AM) When people commit suicide they are trying to deal with their own pain, but they are demonstrating that they don't have a very keen awareness of the pain they may inflict on others by going out in that fashion. I have personally known 2 young men who committed suicide. Oddly enough, they were twin brothers. One killed himself over a breakup with a girl. The second one killed himself over a breakup with the same girl about a year later. As for young women, I knew two who managed to greatly shorten their lives through abusing themselves with alcohol, drugs, and anything else they could manage until it finally killed them. They both clearly did not want to be in this world, but rather than killing themselves in an active fashion they chose to do it very gradually in a passive fashion by causing their health to break down. It was suicide, in truth, but not what people would normally call suicide, because it didn't happen in one day, but over a period of ten years or more. I've known a lot of men who killed themselves that way, usually with alcohol. So it looks like the men again outnumber the women. |
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12 Oct 06 - 05:53 PM (#1857224) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Rapparee This group is very active around here and especially on the Ft. Hall Reservation. Nice folks facing an immense task. |
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12 Oct 06 - 06:00 PM (#1857235) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,lox A very close friend of mine Hung himself in the outhouse at his mums. The letter said "I've hung myself in the outhouse." He was trying to sound jovial to soften the blow. He saw himself as a burden with no future. I think many young lads see themselves this way. A girlfriend who is loyal and true is evidence of self worth in a world where it is very easy to allow oneself to feel worthless. Robbie williams shags a different girl every night, sometimes two or three, at the same time and they are all drop dead gorgeous, while I can't even hold down a relationship with polly average from the local. What's the point? Of course this is a shallow way to look at the world, but it's how FHM etc tells you to look at it. It's how hollywood and EMI tell you to look at it. It's how peer pressure compels you to compete. And who's going to go and tell some miserable lonely guy that he's just shallow. I know this is a much bigger picture than what I have described till now, I'm just adding my jigsaw piece. |
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12 Oct 06 - 06:07 PM (#1857241) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Little Hawk You're right, lox. Nothing boosts a young man's sense of self worth like a loyal and true girlfriend. The sad thing is that people have to look outside themselves for self-worth. You do that, and you give all your power away to someone else. It's a very hazardous way to seek a foundation, like building a house upon sand. By the way, the rich and famous who have no trouble acquiring gorgeous girlfriends also have a problem, quite commonly...they fear that they are loved for their money and fame, not for themselves! If so, once again they have given their power away to someone or something outside themselves. Of all the crummy places to hang yourself, the outhouse has to be about the worst, I'd say! |
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12 Oct 06 - 06:15 PM (#1857247) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST How can you trust your girlfriend? Do all women manipulate? How do you protect your heart and assets? There is no sure way to go about this to not get hurt. But if you don't have trust..you don't have a base for your relationship. To trust a woman isn't always easy. |
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12 Oct 06 - 06:25 PM (#1857257) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST 'I think that this has a lot do to with the fact that women will share their troubles.' Oh. It's not gossip then? |
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12 Oct 06 - 06:56 PM (#1857276) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,thurg In days gone by, most children grew up feeling needed - whether they felt loved or not, they were needed by their family and community to do their part for the family and community. Now many children grow up without experiencing what it's like to be needed, and what it's like to master a simple, practical skill. And they don't have much work to do that they can see is absolutely necessary. So if a young person gets depressed, it is natural for him to feel useless and unnecessary, and there is no chore urgently waiting, to force him into action and take his mind off his misery. (Cleaning up the bedroom doesn't count). |
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12 Oct 06 - 06:56 PM (#1857277) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River If all the beer ran out I would seeriusly think about endin' it. I would, eh? If my mungoberries got chopped off in a freak accident I would definittly end it. Can ya trust girls? HA! CAn you get a dru;nk to walk a flippin' strait line? Can you get a judge to see YOUR side and admit that it's really okay to grow dope adn sell it on the sidewalk like lemminade? I rest my flippin' case! It's mostly gossip, man. But some of it ain't. Don't expeckt me to waste my time figgerin' out whcich is which, eh? - Shane |
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12 Oct 06 - 07:08 PM (#1857284) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Ebbie Guest: "It's not gossip then? " It appears that you are male- and perhaps suffer from a touch of misogyny. Haven't you listened at all? |
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12 Oct 06 - 07:37 PM (#1857305) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: George Papavgeris Why do the stats not surprise me? We are taught that "big boys don't cry" from an early age, and most of us still live in societies that use masculine measures for success - achievement, wealth amassed, competitiveness, assertiveness. Even when women are allowed to break through the "glass ceiling", they often have to do so by being measured with masculine yardsticks which are simply used more equitably today than in the past. The Sensitive New Age Man may meet with approval in some quarters, but is not judged successful because of it - usually the opposite. Sharing of problems not encouraged ("do I look as if I care?", "mind your own business", "he's a strong silent one"...need I go on?). It's all a recipe for bruised egos to fester, especially young ones, when sense of self-worth has not yet matured. Very sad, but inevitable and not at all surprising. |
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12 Oct 06 - 08:01 PM (#1857332) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,mg I think another factor is that women can also get social services,such as housing, if they are desperate, more easily than men (I think..I can't totally verify this.) Stuff is rationed and it used to be close to impossible for single men to get welfare, housing, etc., or even married men to help support their families. And of course they were driven out of public housing by stupid rules. They don't get the help, and they then have worse situations, such as homelessness, hunger, etc. And many turn to drink and drugs, and many did anyway with sufficient resources that we can't understand why. The male is biologically weaker in some respects, and low-status males have problems that higher status males and probably most females, including myself, can not really understand. It is tragic. Think of it..they can't sometimes get work, they can't get sufficient medical and dental care without it, they can't eat properly, they can't attract women, all this leads to more anger problems, violence perhaps. It is awful. mg |
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12 Oct 06 - 08:44 PM (#1857359) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Ebbie mg, there are many homeless women and girls too. Take a look at any town square where the homeless hang out. I have a question: Is it accepted that "men are biologically weaker in some respects"? Biologically? I agree that it may be easier for women to get assistance with housing - but often that is because, by and large, it is the women who find themselves as single parents. It may also be true that women are quicker to ask for help. I know a man who says there is no way he would take his kids to a breadline. I haven't asked him if he'd rather see his kids go hungry. My notion is that women tend to be more realistic, that women accept that things can get tough- but that bending to that reality is not a permanent condition. |
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12 Oct 06 - 09:30 PM (#1857402) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Rapparee If a man won't feed his kids, either by his own work or from a "breadline" he's not much of a father OR a man. My mother went hungry to see that we were fed. She and my father promised that their children would never go to bed hungry -- they grew up during the Depression -- and no matter how tight money was there was food on the table. Maybe it's because I DID grow up with such a role model that I feel as strongly as I do. She also taught us to see what IS, not what we would like it to be ("It ain't what you want out of life, it's what you get" was one of her oft-sighed statements). I don't want to sound like a fundie neocon, but perhaps kids DO have too much and when they can't instantly match what their parents have.... |
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12 Oct 06 - 09:34 PM (#1857404) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Little Hawk It's partly our lifestyle, Rapaire. I found the young people in both Cuba and Trinidad considerably more practical and realistic than here, because they had not grown up with so much material distraction and cushioning in between them and real life. |
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12 Oct 06 - 09:56 PM (#1857417) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Joe_F There are IMO other & better reasons than machismo for men (and, indeed, women) to refrain from talking about unpleasant subjects with their friends. Many -- perhaps most -- people these days believe that having such conversations is not the business of friends but of professionals. By bringing up hard problems you run the risk of driving your friends away, and you may not have many to try the experiment on. Worse, they may believe they have a duty to get you locked up & drugged until you gratify your captors by pretending to share their values. Better to avoid killing yourself *or* seeking help until you are truly desperate. |
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12 Oct 06 - 10:17 PM (#1857441) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: bobad "locked up & drugged until you gratify your captors by pretending to share their values." Very astutely put Joe F. |
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13 Oct 06 - 12:12 AM (#1857503) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Ebbie "Many -- perhaps most -- people these days believe that having such conversations is not the business of friends but of professionals" That may be, Joe F, but even professionals say that if ordinary citizens - friends- learned to listen to each other, the professionals would be out of business. |
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13 Oct 06 - 01:46 AM (#1857519) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST http://www.near-death.com/experiences/suicide01.html |
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13 Oct 06 - 08:46 AM (#1857754) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Wolfgang Not so in Canada, Wolfgang. (12 Oct 06 - 11:00 AM) 12 Oct 06 - 11:00 AM, thanks, interesting statistic. Either the two countries differ really in that respect or it is a question of sampling. If a young man of 24 is found in his bed dead there will be a lot of questions asked over here before "heart failure" is accepted as a diagnosis. If a 78 year old woman is found in her bed dead and she was perhaps suffering for some while, no one really wants to know exactly the reason of her death. So there might be among old people more suicides that remain undetected. But that's not more than a speculation. Thurg, you're right about the greater incidence of suicide among male homosexuals. I can add that the number of suicides among female homosexuals is also much larger than that among heterosexual females. Wolfgang |
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13 Oct 06 - 09:18 AM (#1857780) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,lox >>"Many -- perhaps most -- people these days believe that having >>such >>conversations is not the business of friends but of professionals" >> >>That may be, Joe F, but even professionals say that if ordinary >>citizens - friends- learned to listen to each other, the >>professionals would be out of business. Sorry to be pedantic, no offence to either of you, but reread what JoeF said Ebbie. You aren't disagreeing, but in fact saying the same thing in a different way. Joe F is pointing out that "friends" these days don't want to listen. It's baggage that they "don't need". I'm lucky. I have some good friends who will listen to me whatever I have to say and whenever I want to say it. I return the favour and the friendship strengthens. I know people though who can be ruthless about their "there's a time and a place" attitude. "don't bring me down I'm trying to have fun". and all that. In a minute I'll post again to a new thread with a story that I have been telling a lot lately. I'll even be so annoying as to tell you the various morals that I derive from it. |
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13 Oct 06 - 10:57 AM (#1857858) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST I was just citing the Canadian Government website. Different countries, maybe different results. Stats about suicide are extremely difficult to amass because so many deaths are attributed to other causes for many reasons, the first being to spare the 'suicide's' family. |
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13 Oct 06 - 01:47 PM (#1858008) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Wolfgang I agree. Wolfgang |
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13 Oct 06 - 11:40 PM (#1858431) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Rapparee I have been wondering today is part of the reason is the lack of heroes. I mean those who are worthy of emulation and who are not picked apart by those who feel that because they cannot, no one can or should. These don't have to be muscle-bound, sword-swinging, blood-drenched supermen. They can be ordinary people who were allowed to do extraordinary things and who bettered their world by so doing. |
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14 Oct 06 - 12:19 AM (#1858445) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Little Hawk True. The presence of real heroes is tremendously inspiring to people, but they're not easy to find these days. Or so it seems. |
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14 Oct 06 - 01:28 PM (#1858791) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Jim Dixon Thurg, above, speculated on genetic programming as an explanation of why young men don't like to show emotion. His explanation makes sense, as far as it goes, but if you try to invoke genetics and evolution to explain suicide, you get involved in a lot of paradoxes. Humans are the only animals I know of that commit suicide. (I'm not sure about whales that beach themselves. I don't think anyone has figured that out yet.) Maybe it takes a big brain to invent the kind of convoluted logic that makes suicide seem like a good idea. From an evolutionary standpoint, suicide seems like the worst, most counterproductive (literally) thing you can do. Even things like murder and cannibalism make more sense genetically. That is, you can easily think of scenarios (not in our current civilized world, but among our primitive ancestors) where committing murder and cannibalism might enable an individual to pass more of his genes on to the next generation. Therefore, it's likely a few members of our species will always be willing to commit murder and/or cannibalism, especially when they are under great stress. We're genetically programmed for it. Depression, too, might have some survival value. Depressed people don't move around very much, and don't require as many calories to survive. So, while some individuals are out getting themselves killed trying to bring down a mastodon for supper, others might be home in the cave, curled up in a fetal position, feeling miserable, but surviving. But suicide? Suicide makes sense genetically only if the suicide of one individual makes other closely related individuals more likely to survive. That would mean extreme hardship for the entire band—famine, say, so severe that some members would have to die. Genetically, it would make sense for some individuals to take themselves out of the competition for food. Logically, those should be the least productive members of the band, the old people, the sick, and those already severely depressed. But suicide isn't the only way to take oneself out of the competition. One could just get up and leave, take one's chances somewhere else. It baffles me, trying to explain within an evolutionary framework, why suicide would ever be a better solution than just leaving. I remember, back when I was young, depressed, and thinking of suicide, one thought would frequently come to me and help me make it through the night: I could always just leave. It might not work. I might become just as miserable in a new place as I am now. But it was something I could try. As long as I hadn't tried it yet, I knew I wasn't totally out of options, and knowing that helped keep me alive. I don't know if that would make sense for everyone. (Zoloft works for me now.) |
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14 Oct 06 - 02:08 PM (#1858834) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Divis Sweeney Just back from a short break and notice there are some very interesting points above. Thank you. |
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14 Oct 06 - 02:45 PM (#1858860) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Rapparee Suicide could be a survival trait, but only under the circumstances when the death of one might mean life for many. For instance, the old Inuits would, in times of famine, simply walk away and die so that there would be more food for the rest of the group. I doubt that this would be genetic. More likely it was due to the mores of the group. |
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14 Oct 06 - 10:13 PM (#1859107) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Janie A person may indeed have the 'right' to take their own life. However, their rights do not trump the rights of the person to whom they reveal their intent to intervene.The person they tell has to LIVE with the choices they themselves make. Ain't nuthin' astute at all in your comments, IMHO, Joe F. Just narcissism. Janie |
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14 Oct 06 - 11:10 PM (#1859132) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Janie JOe F. I apologize for my snippiness in my last post. I could have communicated my thoughts about that in a different way. Janie |
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15 Oct 06 - 09:07 PM (#1859846) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Joe_F Janie: No problem. We are, after all, enemies. |
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15 Oct 06 - 11:43 PM (#1859959) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Janie Joe, I just went back and read some of your past posts to other threads, pretty much at random. We don't post to many of the same threads and I did't have a sense of who you are. The journal entry you posted in the "Bus Stories" thread is wonderfully insightful. But your perspective on suicide is as flat and unidimensional as can be. And, many more times than not, so is suicide. WHether or not the person who suicides realizes it, suicide is the pentultimate social act. It resounds through a family throughout the following generations. Really. Truly. And through a circle of people who knew them. Who were affiliated with them in close and more distant ways. Nothing effects a community of people like a successful suicide. More later. Maybe. Janie |
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16 Oct 06 - 09:00 PM (#1860896) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,petr Malcolm Gladwell - in a recent book (which I cant remember right now) wrote whenever papers would report a suicide there would be an increase in suicides in the area. another point may also be that sometimes what is ruled a suicide may actually be kids playing games. - look up 'space monkey' on the net |
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16 Oct 06 - 09:12 PM (#1860900) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST My brother killed himself. His reasons were good ones (he lived with schizophrenia for over 30 years, and I think things just 'got' to him at last). He was a bright young man (ten years my junior), smart (IQ in the high 140s), sensitive and in pain with his mental-emotional health. He finally made a decision to leave for good, and he left for good. In a way I feel sorry for myself about it, but I do not feel sorry for my brother. I have no way to gauge his feelings at the time, but I do know he felt those feelings too many times and with such intensity that to keep facing that possibility day after day became the hell he could no longer abide with. Do I judge my brother? No, not at all. He did what he had to do and found some peace at long bloody last. |
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16 Oct 06 - 09:48 PM (#1860923) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Ebbie I agree with you, Guest. As my (very religious) mother said in response to a suicide, 'We cannot judge. Everybody has their breaking point.' |
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17 Oct 06 - 12:29 AM (#1860996) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Janie Indeed, there are some who eventually do find that life is so chronically painful dispite their best efforts that they just don't want to live anymore. And I agree that we can not, or at least should not, judge. Guest, I am so sorry you lost your brother. And I am glad to hear your compassion and insight have protected you from, or lead you out of, irrational guilt for his choice. May you, and he, be at peace. But most people who planfully attempt suicide and fail are later very glad the attempt failed. They get treatment for their depression, and/or they see first-hand the pain, guilt and fear their attempt caused for people who love them, and whom they love. They come to understand suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Many of them, later, are incredulous that they had actually attempted. More people attempt suicide, or make suicidal gestures, impulsively rather than planfully. Alcohol or drugs are often involved. And often they are at least as angry at some one as they are depressed. Sometimes they accidentally kill themselves. Many people will take the pills, or cut the wrist, and then regret the decision and call for help. Occasionally, the help doesn't arrive in time. Many people are truly ambivalent about whether they want to live or die. Until that ambivalence is firmly resolved, they need to live, IMO. Once you are dead, there ain't no way to reverse that decision if you change your mind. And please note that I use the words, 'often', 'most' and 'many', as opposed to 'always' or 'never.' I absolutely believe that if some one has made a rational and reasoned choice to die, that they will be able to successfully accomplish that. But it is very rare that a decision to suicide is rational or well-reasoned. Steven Levine has written extensively about his work with hospice patients. He worked closely with Ram Dass and also with Elizabeth Kubler Ross. He writes about suicide among suffering, terminally ill people with tremendous insight and compassion, and from the perspective of a Buddhist mental health practicioner. He expresses the opinion that when most, though not all, people suicide, the first thought they have after death is "Oops." I am an experienced and skillful clinican. but I can not crawl into another person's psyche so completely as to judge if they will be saying "oops" after they suicide or not. I have worked with, or known personally, a very few people who truly regreted a suicide attempt was thwarted, and who later went on to successfully suicide. The vast majority of people who are suicidal at a particular point in time, change their minds and are absolutely joyful that they did not succeed at their attempt. Janie |
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17 Oct 06 - 02:29 AM (#1861031) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Barry Finn Here's my dimes worth. I believe it's more than just a case of the typical male stereotype of "kick the chin up" or "a stiff upper lip" or that males don't talk about what bothers them or that they're the "strong silent gender", though this does certainly play its part in it all. Male homosexuality for young adults is another cause of the higher rates for male suicide. Though the unwillingness of their acceptance may well be tied into the above statement along with religious reasons. I'd also say that between the high school & college yrs males are the more likely to put their macho selves in dangerous positions through drinking & drugs. So there are these social causes. Then added to that the victimizations of young men by their peers is another cause along with the pressures of a male dominated society & it's demands on it's males, There are the shooting by cop suicides & then the kids that just can't stand the torture of being bullied, so there are the environmental causes too. More so I'd think that a lot of the suicides are the results of medical cause too. Many of the neurological & mood disorders like ADD, Bi Polar, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, etc are much more likely to appear in men. Though depression is more likely to appear in women, men are at much higher rate of going it without being treated & less likely to seek out help. Men are more likely to self medicate than women. So I believe here's also a reason why we have more male junkies & female, so it more like that death by drugs in a more common occurrence in males then females (I don't have that as a statistic though). So if this all is the case then it's no wonder that we opt out at a much higher rate than women. I do believe that it's a selfish act but then I don't think that's how someone else is going to feel is apriority at that moment & I don't think that all of them should be seen in that light either. There's also the pain of living, I do believe that for some the pain of life, especially those with disorders, is just to much & they can no longer live with it, it's just become to much for to long without an ending in site. I've been so close to death a few times, only a touch away, that I can understand how someone can finally give over & let go, it does look peaceful to the hurting. I'm just glad I've always been a stubborn, nasty fighter. Barry |
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18 Oct 06 - 01:53 AM (#1861910) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,Coyote Breath I once discovered what "deep" depression was. I picked up an object heavier than I expected and was off balance. An incredibly painful muscle spasm resulted. The doctor prescribed a muscle relaxant ( I can't recall the name of the drug). There was an information sheet with the pills. I read it (something I don't usually do). One of the negative side effects was "extreme depression". Normally I don't react to drugs in a negative way but this was an exception. I took the pills as directed, confidant nothing would be amiss. I woke up around 2 AM. I have never felt so miserable. I curled up into a ball and faced the wall. I rocked back and forth, moaning, and felt more and more dismal and lost. I wanted to be dead. Fortunately I remembered the information sheet that had come with the medicine and worked at convincing myself that what I was feeling would go away as the medication wore off. I was paralized with morbid thoughts and feelings of doom. The medication took almost 12 hours to begin to wear off and I managed to get back to my doctor that afternoon. He agreed that what I had gone through was the result of the medication. It took a couple of days before I felt balanced emotionally. That brief time spent deep in the throes of depression was a shocking eye-opener. From that time on I realized that deep depression, true depression, was a force whose power had been beyond my ability to understand until I experienced it first hand. I can understand how depression can pull someone into what might seem the irrational act of suicide. Most of us have never experienced that profound and intense a level of depression, and survived. Perhaps young people have been told too often that they are special, that they are as important a person as anyone else and they expect to experience that level of acceptance throughout their lives. The real world intervenes. Acceptance and reward have to be won. It is only in grade school that everyone gets the blue ribbon. Is a winner. So a twenty-something suddenly finds that he's not so special, his girlfriend breaks it off, he spirals into a massive funk and pulls the plug, convinced that he's a loser. Werner Erhard said that suicide is the ultimate "Fuck You". Curt Cobain's mother is said to have commented: "Curt has joined the ranks of the stupid" A California Highway Patrolman spotted a jumper on the Golden Gate bridge and squealed to a stop, rushing out of the patrol car with his gun drawn. He pointed his pistol at the guy standing on the railing and yelled "Freeze!". The would-be jumper did and at the cop's command came down off the railing. Extreme depression is a force almost beyond our comprehension. Killing one'self seems reasonable when in it's grip. CB |
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20 Oct 06 - 02:27 PM (#1864442) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,Janie "Girl's Suicide Attempt Kills Woman" |
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20 Oct 06 - 06:19 PM (#1864647) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Lox "Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Rapaire - PM Date: 14 Oct 06 - 02:45 PM Suicide could be a survival trait, but only under the circumstances when the death of one might mean life for many. For instance, the old Inuits would, in times of famine, simply walk away and die so that there would be more food for the rest of the group. I doubt that this would be genetic. More likely it was due to the mores of the group. " I think Rapaire's point here is very eye opening. In his post, as you can see, he remarks on how the old folk effectively delete themselves when they reach a point where they believe they are no longer useful to the collective, but have instead become a burden on it. An alienated disenfranchised young man, who sees no place for himself in society, may have a genetic disposition towards feeling that if he is not contributing then maybe he is a burden. (to perhaps answer "Jim Dixon - PM Date: 14 Oct 06 - 01:28 PM" We are after all social animals. Perhaps our struggle individually is to be the most essential part of our community. Hence all the squabbling over politics. Likewise, those who are at rock bottom in society may face a choice between allowing themselves to be rejected or to reject society back, thus giving themselves a free hand to be as destructive and self serving as they like. They might even then elevate themselves into a position where they are the most important parts of an alternative society. Perhaps this is the way that great empires begin to crumble. All just thoughts off the top of my head. |
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27 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM (#1870271) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: alanabit I have been offline for about ten days, so I was unable to respond to this thread before. I had been following it for a few days, but it came into sharper focus, because on Monday evening of last week, I got the news that my younger brother had taken a deliberate overdose. He was kept on a ventilator through the night and our family spent a horrible night and morning, hoping he would regain consciousness. Fortunately, he is now out of hospital. We never really will know what went on inside his head. He certainly had a difficult childhood. Mother suffered severe depression and rarely emerged from her bedroom before ten on most days. He was largely fed, changed and dressed by older children, not yet in their early teens. When his father finally returned from sea, he became an alcoholic and the small boy bore the brunt of it, as the family ran a pub. His first marriage lasted a couple of years, producing a couple of daughters, whom his former wife has effectively always prevented him from seeing. He is a diagnosed epileptic. There had been a series of suicide attempts as a younger man, but we had thought he was past that. There had been none during the past ten years. The break up with a girlfriend and a weekend of alcohol abuse on his own seems to have been enough to tip him over the edge. Yet most of the time, we know him as a cheerful, kindly, generous man,who is full of warmth and fun. I read Coyote Breath's post with interest, because I believe that when someone commits or attempts suicide, they genuinely believe that it is the most rational course of action. Is it just a chemical imbalance or a whole host of causes? I am afraid I only have questions. I have never walked a mile in those shoes. |
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27 Oct 06 - 06:44 PM (#1870345) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,thurg Tough stuff, alanabit. And your questions bring us back to where we started. Seems there's so much we don't yet understand, and maybe never will. In this scientific age, we're so used to answers and explanations that it makes it more exasperating when we can't get answers and explanations. In former times, more people seemed able to accept unexplained misfortune as "the will of God" - part of the mysterious Divine Plan ... |
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27 Oct 06 - 08:50 PM (#1870417) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: GUEST,Janie alanabit, My experiences tell me that there is no one reason why some one may attempt suicide, but the psyche is in no way separate from the soma, and visa versa. There is no such thing as 'just a chemical imbalance' (and I don't think you were meaning to sound dismissive when you wrote that) There are many who will say that the psyche and the soma are intimately connected and interactive. I say they are aspects of the same whole. It is sometimes necessary to speak of them as if they are two interelated but separate parts, but to think of them in that way is still an artificial construct, and it is important to be mindful of that. In the past few years advances in imaging technology and neuroscience have lead to the dawning of a new understanding of infant brain development, and by extension, human behavior, temperment, personality. A debate has raged for years among mental health researchers and practitioners about nature vs. nurture. That debate has just about disappeared. This is because we now know that the neural pathways and connections-the hardwiring of the infant brain, develop in response/reaction to a complex matrix of genetics, other biological factors, and the experiences of infancy and very early childhood. (And we are in the very early infancy of our understanding this.) It is not nature vs. nurture. It is not, even, nature and nurture, It is naturenurture. On a different note, any thoughts or concerns about life and death, be they about contemplating our own suicide, or trying to understand the choices of another, are ultimately existential concerns. We all have many of the same questions, but we each have to arrive at our own answers, find our own ways of making meaning. They ways we do this, the ways we find meaning, the answers at which we arrive vary within ourselves over time and in different circumstances. The problem with suicide, in most cases, is that it is a choice that can not be revoked or revisited once successfully acted upon. Holding you, your brother and family in my thoughts. Peace. Janie |
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28 Oct 06 - 04:58 AM (#1870625) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: alanabit You have read me right Janie. When I wrote "chemical imbalance", I was referring to that complex and imperfectly understood cocktail of physical and possibly metaphysical forces, which compels people to think or act in a certain way. We constantly remake and adapt our models of the world, but sometimes we are tempted to forget that our models are only that. Of course, there is always every reason to try and improve them. I have been in contact with my brother. One of the things I said was that although it may appear to him at times that suicide would end his problems, it would only just be the beginning for those left behind. I know it is a selfish angle, but I know he loves me and he would not want to deliberately inflict that amount of suffering on others. I hope I can persuade him to get professional help... Thanks for your time. |
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28 Oct 06 - 05:31 AM (#1870633) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: autolycus I notice in this interesting and desperately sad thread how few people mention counselling and therapy. I'd be glad to know what that's about. In the meantime, "We know more about the atom than about ourselves and the consequences are everywhere to be seen." Carl Kaysen in Time magazine,19.3.1973 The Malcolm Gladwell book, The Tipping Point? Ivor |
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28 Oct 06 - 06:02 AM (#1870642) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Gurney To Divis' original question, yes, statistics in NZ are in line with Britain, Europe, and the US. As an opinion and an observation, men, particularly young men, are much less resilient than women emotionally. I was, and am. It is just as well, because if men had to bear children, there wouldn't be many people. I haven't disagreed with anything above, and the points made about male suicide giving virtually no chance of survival or second thoughts is well taken. Also, the point about lack of heroes in the modern world rings true for me. Who can you openly admire without argument? |
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28 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM (#1870712) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: *daylia* Alanabit, please know that I am keeping your whole family in my thoughts and prayers as well. Some thoughts and stats from Kinark Child and Family Services, a busy mental health clinic here in Simcoe County Ontario. Suicide is the second-leading cause of death among individuals between the ages of 15 and 19, according to Statistics Canada. Over the last 30 years the suicide rate among teens has skyrocketed. During that span the rate of suicide has increased five-fold among males and three-fold among females. "The issues facing young people are often related to family, bullying, community and a masked depression" says Dr. Meen, a veteran of more than 35 years in children�s mental health. Teenagers are incredibly good at masking their feelings...." According to the Canadian Mental Health Association, which has been very active in teen suicide prevention programs, there are several warning signs of suicidal intent: depression; drastic behaviour or mood swings; previous attempts; sudden improvement after a period of depression. Anxiety, isolation, depression, drug abuse and delinquency can all be implicated, either separately or in combination. A childhood friend of mine took his own life last January. Certainly no youngster -- he was 44 -- he was dealing with an injured back and the loss/change of employment that had caused and ongoing marital problems/family breakup. Like so many other people (and not just male people!) the only "tools" he used for dealing with the stress were alcohol and drugs. He scoffed at the thought of counselling :-( He'd been hospitalized the year before for threatening to take his own life, and the cops had confiscated all his guns at that time. That, however, was apparently not enough to prevent what happened. His hunting buddies had humoured his requests, making sure he was not left totally weaponless .... ANyway, I saw him in a dream for the first time all year, yesterday moring. I don't think I ever saw him look so happy and healthy, so well-cared for! He was dressed in bright spankin new clothes, working outside in the fresh air, out in nature, as he always loved to do. His cheeks were rosy, eyes bright -- even that long thick beard he'd struggled to keep in half-decent shape all his life was different. It looked liked it had been washed and combed and dressed by an angel or something -- all lovely and curled and hanging right down to his belly-button! I said "Mike!!! You look GREAT, Mike! WAY TO GO, BUD!!" He didn't say anything though, just looked at me and grinned widely ... Don't know why I'm posting this here, really. It's so very personal, and there's a wide range of opinion out there as to what, if anything, dreams mean. But I do know this -- I felt so comforted by that dream, it was so real, I just KNOW that my friend is in much better shape now than he was when he left this vale of tears! According to my childhood religion, suicide is a "mortal sin" and anyone who does such a thing goes to Hell. Forever. Well, from what I've seen, that's just a pile of garbage. My friend was in "Hell" before he chose to check out, not after. Thanks for listening, daylia |
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28 Oct 06 - 03:18 PM (#1870960) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: Ebbie daylia, thanks for that account. I totally agree with you. |
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29 Oct 06 - 02:37 PM (#1871542) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: autolycus Hope we can see now why young men seeking out a therapist or counsellor is a tremendouly brave thing to do. Ivor |
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29 Oct 06 - 05:49 PM (#1871647) Subject: RE: BS: Young men 'suicide' From: autolycus Very sad. Ivor |