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19 Oct 06 - 04:57 AM (#1862977) Subject: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Dave Hanson Looking at the favourite Irish tune thread made me think of the worst Irish tune I ever learned, I was looking through O'Neills 1001 Gems and came accross the reel with the longest title, ' Kitty Got A Clinking, Coming From The Races ' I though wow this must be worth learning, I did and it wasn't, it is definately the most boring tune I ever learned. Any more out there ? eric |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:11 AM (#1862987) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST,Betsy My red-headed mott from Ringsend |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:17 AM (#1862988) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Dave Hanson Love it, Betsy. eric |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:17 AM (#1862990) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Paul Burke We can blame Kitty on the Scots, but Speed the Plough is a poor effort. Though it's better when converted to a modal scale and played as Klezmer (as the Vulgar Bulgar). I find a lot of the recent cut-and-paste reels a bit boring (that bit sounds like one tune, the next bit like another etc.) I expect it all comes down to the fact that you need a very good memory to compose a tune, otherwise you'll recompose something you've heard before. Generally if I don't like a tune, it's because I'm bored with it. If you want good names, Bounce On Bess is my current favourite. |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:18 AM (#1862992) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Shambles Tunes are like instruments. I have heard poor quality instruments played wonderfully and as result, sounding fine and fine quality instruments played badly and as a result sounding poor. But again some instruments are a joy to play as are some tunes. Some instruments and tunes, you have to work harder at. But there is no accounting for taste and you will find the same tunes listed as being the worst and the best. And again a tune that sounds uninspiring on one instrument (or combination of instruments) may sound great on another. To my ear - many boxes will reduce the most exciting tunes to the sound equivilent of 'lumpy gravy'. Others may find banjos have the same effect? I am trying hard to think of a tune that I always find uninspiring to play or hear. I may hear one tonight. |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:34 AM (#1863002) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Fidjit All celtic muzak Chas |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:43 AM (#1863006) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: breezy any tune longer than 10 seconds why do they play sets of 3 tunes with A and B parts 3 times through? I dont sing 3 songs with the same verse 3 times with 3 different choruses! |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:58 AM (#1863010) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: erinmaidin To the refined ear listening to acccomplished players, playing the sets in that way lends opportunity for variations, flourishes, if you will. When one sings a song, sure don't the lyrics change from verse to verse while still using the same melody? |
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19 Oct 06 - 06:26 AM (#1863018) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: JulieF certainly in traditional unaccompanied song you often do exactly what they do in tune set with the melody as well as the words by changing the decoration from verse to verse and changing emphasis. J |
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19 Oct 06 - 06:30 AM (#1863020) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: breezy totally, but the melody can be varied too with flourishes So , no. It also gives the guitarist a 2nd chance to hit the correct chords so , no. Play a tune once is ok twice is alright but a 3rd time might be bordering on the boring and to repeat that thrice more is just trying to hold the limelight. so, no |
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19 Oct 06 - 07:15 AM (#1863035) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: ard mhacha It helps a lot to be brought up in the tradition otherwise you can be bored to tears, Widdicombe Fair is a case in point, bloody awful, but then again I don`t come from Devon. |
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19 Oct 06 - 07:36 AM (#1863042) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST There's no such a thing. Any Irish tune would beat an English tune hands down. |
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19 Oct 06 - 07:57 AM (#1863058) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Grab If you've got 1001 "gems", it's a fair bet that a few of them are going to be paste... :-/ The Fiddler's Fakebook has its share of duds too. Although mostly for me they're the old-time tunes, which seem to have survived by virtue of being so nursery-rhyme-simple that you could probably twang them on a fence wire. O'Carolan's Concerto is on my "don't-like" list. It looks good on paper, but when you get into it, it's some unholy mix of sanitised-Irish and substandard-classical. It sounds like a parody/pastiche, but I can't work out which tradition he was parodying with it. Possibly both. Graham. |
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19 Oct 06 - 08:10 AM (#1863069) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Paul Burke Geminiani was apparently Carolan's inspiration for that sort of stuff, he visited Ireland around then. CC is actually very good, it has a lovely drive to it, though if you've only been exposed to Fairport Convention's rather motorboat version of it, it's not so good. When I play it, I always think of Leo Rowsome's version, which he coupled with Two William Davises (I wish). Breezy, sessions like conversations are best heard from the inside. Some tunes, like some topics, are quickly dealt with, others to be mulled over, looked at from different angles, even argued over before a conclusion is reached. |
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19 Oct 06 - 08:12 AM (#1863072) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Stu Big Ship, Little Ship. Yeuch. |
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19 Oct 06 - 08:18 AM (#1863074) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Shambles Play a tune once is ok twice is alright but a 3rd time might be bordering on the boring and to repeat that thrice more is just trying to hold the limelight. For an audience to listen to (as mainly the case with song) - that may be the case with tunes. But tunes are not mainly intended to be listened to (unless in a performance). They are first for dancing to and in sessions mainly for the participants to play, pass on and to learn - but mainly to involve all present in making a nice noise together. Playing a third time (or more) is often the very opposite of trying to hold the limelight. [But as holding the limelight is the main point of 'giving us a song' - why should this object be judged so questionable when playing a tune?] The more time a tune is played - anyone unfamiliar with the tune or less skilled than others has more time to learn it. Very often I carry on playing a tune when I see someone (who I know to like tune being played) rushing back from the toilet, in order to join in before it stops. You can get a bit pissed off when you get set up to play a tune you like - only for it stop at that point. |
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19 Oct 06 - 08:24 AM (#1863080) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: greg stephens It can be a great mistake to asssume a tune that you find in a book is rubbish. It may be that you can't immediately find a wy to play it. Eric the Red started this thread by having a go at "Kitty got a Clinking coming from the races". Now, approaching this as a standard Irish reel might not lead to anything very satisfactory. But I'm sure that this is a lowland Scots or northern English tune. I imagine a Donegal style fiddler could make a very good tune out of this, but a more southern Irish approach might very well not work at all. But play this in a session in Edinburgh, or Cumbria, and then you'd see what the tune is for. It's a belter! |
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19 Oct 06 - 08:25 AM (#1863081) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Paul Burke In that respect, French music (as I've heard it played) is a lot worse than Irish. They usually stay with the one tune right through, which can be 15 or 20 repetitions. |
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19 Oct 06 - 08:50 AM (#1863107) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Dave Hanson I suspect that Shambles and Greg Stephens are both right, it's not what you've got but what you do with it. Ukuleles can be great instruments but we often get as many as five in our Tuesday session, all playing the same chords, all in perfect unison, all sound bloody awful tgether. I should have called this thread, best name Irish tune. eric |
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19 Oct 06 - 08:58 AM (#1863118) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST,twaggle any of the misserable bloody bog arab tunes |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:01 AM (#1863122) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Shambles When sick is it tea you want? |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:12 AM (#1863134) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Dave Hanson Also from O'Neills, The Grumbling Rustic Boiled Goats Milk The Priest And His Boots, all double jigs. eric |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:15 AM (#1863143) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Shiplap Structure3 I hate that one that goes diddly diddly diddly diddly |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:19 AM (#1863150) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Sandman well said, greg stephens. |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:21 AM (#1863153) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: greg stephens Well if we could extend your best "Irish tune title" to include English tune titles. I always think the Cumbrian "Hod the lass while I run at her" is a bit of a classic. Not that I approve in any way, of course. It is only rivalled by "The Old Wife Pissed and Paddled in it"(also Cumbrian) |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:34 AM (#1863164) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: clueless don I love Carolan's Concerto (it was the recessional at my wedding.) However, restricting attention to Carolan tunes, I am rather tired of "Loftus Jones". Don |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:36 AM (#1863166) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Tootler I am told that playing two or three tunes twice or three times over in a set is relatively recent and stems from the early recordings of Jimmy Shand. Early recordings by Jimmy Shand were of one tune on each side. HMV, the record company found that much of his sales were people his records to learn the tunes. HMV reasoned that if they put more tunes on each record, then with more tunes to learn on each record, more people would buy the records. Up to that time, a dance would be danced to a single tune played as many times as was necessary to complete the dance, but the practice of a set of tunes as played on records crept into playing for dancing and into sessions. I am told by a correspondent on another forum that in American Contra dancing it is still normal practice to play a single tune for each dance. Perhaps USA Mudcatters could confirm this. I would like to see sessions play single tunes more times through. If you are unsure of a tune you need at least three times to properly get it. If it is a tune you don't know, playing it five or six times gives you a good chance of learning it. Even if you immediately forget it when you get outside. LOL As for Irish tunes, it is the over decorated diddly diddly reels I don't like - the just become a stream of notes, however good the underlying tune. More restraint is needed with decoration, especially from whistle players to make the tunes effective. |
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19 Oct 06 - 09:46 AM (#1863171) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Paul Burke Haven't you listened to the old Michael Coleman or Patsy Tuohey records then, Tootler? The two tunes twice through format quite conceivably comes from the limitations of old wax cylinders and 78, and has been common since the 1900s at least. What people did before that is difficult to say, because no one recorded it. As for the decoration- that's just sour grapes :) |
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19 Oct 06 - 10:23 AM (#1863204) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Scoville Who was responsible for "Hangman's Reel"? I hate that tune. One big, long, four-part chord progression with no actual melody. ***** As far as playing tunes over and over for hours--we do that a lot to help those that don't know them, learn them. Also, I know a lot of old-time musicians who go into convulsions if you try to arrange a medley. More Europeanized "Contradance" musicians less so, but many American old-time musicians play only one tune for the whole dance. "Old Joe Clark" (which is not Irish, so I won't blame it on them) is one of my all-time least favorite tunes, but I only disliked it until I had to play it for 30 minutes solid at a square dance. Put me right over the edge into outright hatred. |
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19 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM (#1863218) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Tootler Paul Burke, I'm not familiar with the recordings you mentioned, but then I am in England and have more interest in English music. I got the story off David Oliver of Folkworks and he's been playing for dancing for many years. He knew many of the old Northumbrian musicians and Jimmy Shand often played for dances in Northumberland in the 30's and 40's. I did notice on some of the old recordings on the Farne website, that the old Northumbrian musicians were playing two tunes two or three times through, even on recordings made live at dances. As to decoration it's a matter of taste As to the previous poster, I can imagine playing "Old Joe Clark" or anything else for 30 minutes is likely to leave a little fed up of the particular tune. |
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19 Oct 06 - 11:09 AM (#1863239) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: greg stephens If you dont like tunes played more than twice, whatever you do dont go to Padstow on Mayday. After twenty-four hours solid of the same tune, you will definitely have had enough(personally, I love repetition). |
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19 Oct 06 - 11:25 AM (#1863253) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Shambles (personally, I love repetition). Careful now. In Shetland the popular dance on the Westside was The Foula Reel to the tune the Shalds o Foula. Not 24 hours perhaps - but when you are playing the same tune over and over - it seemed like it. |
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19 Oct 06 - 11:31 AM (#1863259) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Sandman double jigs are normally played twice through, 64 bars. because that way they fit the pattern dance perfectly, HAYMAKERS JIG ETC. 48 bar jigs are used for specific dances like Bridge of athlone and WAVESofTORY, again the tune played twice through fits perfectly the dance once through, .This was happening long before Jimmy Shand was stirring his spirtle stick in his porridge. |
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19 Oct 06 - 12:40 PM (#1863348) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST "spirtle stick" is tautological. "Spurtle" (NB. sp.) on its own suffices. |
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19 Oct 06 - 05:38 PM (#1863633) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: brioc considering I grew up five minutes away from Ringsend, and have red hair, I am really dying to know more about the Redheaded Mott............ would she be a jig, reel or whah? |
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19 Oct 06 - 06:04 PM (#1863653) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST,thurg "Who was responsible for "Hangman's Reel"? I hate that tune. One big, long, four-part chord progression with no actual melody." Okay, since you asked, cric-crac sit back and cric-croc let me talk. A stranger came into the village - this very village - and attended a dance. In the course of the dance, the stranger got into a fight, and unfortunately killed his opponent. A trial was held the next day, the stranger found guilty, and taken out to be hanged. However, perhaps there was some little bit of sympathy for the (handsome) stranger, because an out-of-tune fiddle was brought to him and he was told that if he could play it, his life would be spared. The stranger took the fiddle and played the tune that became known as the "Hangman's Reel". His life - normally here the phrase "needless to say" would appear - was spared, and the tune has been a popular one ever since, mes enfants. Given the circumstances of its composition, I'd cut the tune some slack! |
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20 Oct 06 - 06:01 AM (#1863992) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Shambles Given the circumstances of its composition, I'd cut the tune some slack! Yes and of course the secret is all in its execution. |
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20 Oct 06 - 06:23 AM (#1864006) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: MartinRyan Sounds like the ideal tune for this weekend! Regards |
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20 Oct 06 - 07:05 AM (#1864034) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Mrrzy Dick Darby! |
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20 Oct 06 - 08:45 AM (#1864118) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: clueless don I believe that the Hangman's Reel is also sometimes called the Hanged Man's Reel. Don |
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20 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM (#1864353) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Scoville Well, according to the legend, Whoever-He-Was Coleman went to the gallows, too, and he still managed to pull off a decent tune. But I guess you're right--I wouldn't do my best composing under those circumstances, either. |
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20 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM (#1864431) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Sandman the old irish washerwoman, and the three note jig. |
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21 Oct 06 - 08:45 AM (#1864996) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Big Al Whittle I was always somehow taken by surprise when I heard All Kinds of everything, sung by Dana. God I hated that. It was traditional on radio2. |
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21 Oct 06 - 10:49 AM (#1865050) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST,sorefingers A bit like Bluegrass, after a several tunes, it becomes a mishmash of sweet fiddley thingies. But I think it is not so much a tune as how well it is played, and that is where endless rounds of reels can get a bit samey. Nobody, it appears, is that good, and in the end they middling well play evenings of reels, but cannot deliver one outstanding performance. But to me - I can play most things including the fiddlededee - and probably most likeminded, today the over played stuff is irritating. Compare the end of the Rock era and bad blues playing. So don't even begin 'Give Me Your Hand', 'The Kerry Polka' - can't stand those two. Coleman reels badly played are enough to make me run out of the building. Some people think they can outplay Coleman! However I still love a good duet of Fiddle and OT Banjo, since that has to be creative and the players constantly have to evolve or be out of time with each other. Next, I like an evening of Folk Singing with the odd tune thrown in for variety. Still love to listen to Seamus Ennis recordings, beautiful performance of airs. Most other pipers seem to me to be trying to speed everything up so they don't have to do it right. Lots of wannabe Irish bands today seem to think thats what they must do, ie win the race. So much for Kitty, even less for that horrid 'wannabe trad' classical Violinist's flop Hangman's Whining. |
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21 Oct 06 - 01:27 PM (#1865148) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: Geoff Wallis Anyone decrying 'The Irish Washerwoman' has clearly never heard Tommy Peoples play it! |
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21 Oct 06 - 02:48 PM (#1865203) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST,thurg "that horrid 'wannabe trad' classical Violinist's flop Hangman's Whining." Sorry - can you explain what you're talking about there? (I'm not being sarcastic - I don't get it). |
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21 Oct 06 - 03:55 PM (#1865234) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: The Sandman no I was decrying THE OLD IRISH WASHERWOMAN, the one who ran off with all my clothes from the launderette. |
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22 Oct 06 - 01:10 AM (#1865444) Subject: RE: Folklore: Worst trad Irish tune From: GUEST,Mike Miller The third section of "Belfast Hornpipe", with its predictable and tedious descending triplets (diddly, diddly, diddly, diddly, diddly, diddly dum) soils the first two parts, which are just delightful. Another sub standard Irish tune is the B part of "Victory". It sounds like something you play until you remember the real tune. The Irish have a genius for sprightly melody. They, also, have they infernal ability to play the same song for hours. |