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11 Nov 06 - 05:41 PM (#1883403) Subject: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: katlaughing Just wondering: do most of you prefer your novels in first or third person? (Gotcha with the title, didn't I?**bg**) Tks! |
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11 Nov 06 - 05:45 PM (#1883409) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Ebbie As a general thing I prefer 3rd person; 1st person seems very limiting. However, 1st person can at times get deeper into a character practically wordlessly (if that is possible) because you, the reader, can watch as the protagonist's personality and character are revealed. It depends. |
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11 Nov 06 - 05:50 PM (#1883417) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox I can't even begin to conceive how I might answer that question. There's just too many variables. |
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11 Nov 06 - 05:52 PM (#1883418) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself A simple yes or no will suffice. |
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11 Nov 06 - 05:57 PM (#1883425) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox "do most of you prefer your novels in first or third person?" ... erm ... ... Yes ... =-) |
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11 Nov 06 - 05:58 PM (#1883426) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Becca72 except that it's not a "yes" or "no" question... |
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11 Nov 06 - 05:59 PM (#1883427) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox ...oh ... ... no then ... =) |
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11 Nov 06 - 05:59 PM (#1883430) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox ;-) |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:05 PM (#1883433) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself Okay, then, if we're going to be pedantic: yes, no, or maybe. |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:06 PM (#1883436) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox see - too many variables |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:07 PM (#1883437) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow Horses for courses. Can you imagine Huckleberry Finn in the third person? Or Jane Eyre? Or Pride and Prejudice or the Lord of the Rings in the first person? Different stories require different narrative techniques. |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:09 PM (#1883438) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Snuffy First person works fine as a fictional autobiography. "Reader, I married him". But a less private work demands a wider, impersonal perspective - "I" just wouldn't work for the sort of stuff Dickens or Balzac gave us. Not the only options though: plenty of "documentary" novels with no narrator - just using letters, press cuttings, police reports etc. The ones that really piss me off though are the ones done in the SECOND person. I only have to read "And then you think ...." and I say firmly "NO, I BLOODY DON'T" and shut the book. For ever. |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:13 PM (#1883440) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox I'm trying really hard to remember where, if ever, I have read that kind of prose. "... One day you wake up and you look out your door and you realise you're never going to read that many story's in the second person, so you get up and you go down the book store where you ask the guy behind the counter ... etc ..." Perhaps it was a song ... |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:16 PM (#1883442) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself "The ones that really piss me off though are the ones done in the SECOND person. I only have to read "And then you think ...." and I say firmly "NO, I BLOODY DON'T" and shut the book. For ever." Does that mean the second-person novel sitting in the bottom of my desk drawer should stay there? |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:21 PM (#1883446) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Snuffy So you're in this guy's apartment and you're looking at all these cheap paperbacks on his shelf, all written in the swinging sixties, and you pick one at random, and you see it's written in the sodding second person, like he's trying deperately to get you to sympathise with him in his sad perverted life or even to get remotely interested, but somehow you know that it's just not going to happen because even if you continue reading the next seventeen pages to the end of the sentence, it's still not going to make you think him any more ........ |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:29 PM (#1883453) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Ebbie Did Mike Hammer do 2nd person? Sounds familiar. |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:32 PM (#1883456) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow "I" just wouldn't work for the sort of stuff Dickens or Balzac gave us. " You should read David Copperfield or Great Expectations some time... |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:38 PM (#1883459) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Emma B probably one of the best known opening sentances - Reader, I married him. A quiet wedding we had: he and I, the parson and clerk, were alone present. When we got back from church, I went into the kitchen of the manor-house, where Mary was cooking the dinner and John cleaning the knives, and I said - |
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11 Nov 06 - 06:39 PM (#1883460) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself To avoid ill-feeling, contributors will please refrain from writing in the second person. The previous post, for instance, could as easily have been expressed thusly: "I should read David Copperfield or Great Expectations some time... " or "He or she should read David Copperfield or Great Expectations some time..." or even "David Copperfield should read Great Expectations some time...". Thank you for your continued co-operation. |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:03 PM (#1883473) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow The previous post, for instance, could as easily have been expressed thusly: "I should read David Copperfield or Great Expectations some time... " Not really, because I have read them, and consequently know they are both written in the first person. |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:05 PM (#1883476) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,... Doesn't Winnie the Pooh begin and end in the second person? |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM (#1883480) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Bill D Call me Ishmael.... |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:18 PM (#1883482) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself "Not really, because I have read them, and consequently know they are both written in the first person." By golly, you got me there; that never occurred to me. I assumed that you, following the common practice, were content to create the illusion of having read them, while in fact only having watched the Masterpiece Theatre interpretations. I stand corrected. You must concede, however, that the question of whether David Copperfield has read Great Expectations remains open. |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:26 PM (#1883485) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: katlaughing LOL, at you lot! Keep it up, very entertaining and, erm...informative.:-) kat17,343wordsintoherNaNoWriMonovelinthirdperson |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:33 PM (#1883494) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd Once she had a farm in Africa. It is a far, far better thing he does, than he has ever done; it is a far, far better rest that he goes to than he has ever known. Call him Ishmael. I have met the enemy and it is I. |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:34 PM (#1883495) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow Lots of narratives dive in and out of different voices - first person, third person. And sometimes different first persons. |
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11 Nov 06 - 07:37 PM (#1883497) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST Third person is a cheat. Author trying to cover all perspectives, playing God. First person is a more honest way to go. First person, the author admits limited capabilities, more believable. Generally. Always exceptions. |
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11 Nov 06 - 08:24 PM (#1883532) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox Elmer Now you appear to have hit on something interesting. Translating 1st to 3rd and vice versa. Those few examples make the imagination tingle. |
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11 Nov 06 - 09:06 PM (#1883558) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself One must go down to the sea again, The lonely sea and the sky ... mustn't one? |
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11 Nov 06 - 09:48 PM (#1883583) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Bee-dubya-ell Novels with even numbers of pages should be written in first person while those with odd numbers of pages should be written in third person. |
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11 Nov 06 - 09:52 PM (#1883589) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Alice I've never thought of it as anything to prefer. Each in its appropriate way, whatever best fits the story. |
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11 Nov 06 - 11:44 PM (#1883650) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself Novels in the first person should only be read by the first person that reads them. Similarly, novels in the third person should only be read by the third person. The novel The Third Man poses a particular problem that will require some study - especially if the the third person is a woman. But then, come to think of it, it was written in the first person. I'm afraid legal action may be our only recourse in this instance. |
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12 Nov 06 - 12:12 AM (#1883657) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd But it ain't you babe, I said no, no, no it ain't you babe. It ain't you I'm looking for, babe. Elmer ; > ) |
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12 Nov 06 - 12:22 AM (#1883660) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Amos Last night she dreamed she returned to Marianbad But don't ask me how I know... You were a dark and stormy knight.. A |
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12 Nov 06 - 10:58 AM (#1883770) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: John Hardly I can quickly think of examples of either that I like. They each have their limitations (seems to me). In pursuit of an interesting character, it often seems more enjoyable to read a flawed first person describing his own reactions to the situations in the novel -- a sort of "humble by necessity of ignorance" that I find appealling. The opposite of that is the tedium of the omniscient POV that fails to adaquately describe a character either by dialogue or by action, but instead falls back on physical description (the refuge of the weak writer). The goal is less-is-more. Description is the road to tedium. I like the author who can write the multi-purpose paragraph wherein character is described without description. |
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12 Nov 06 - 12:39 PM (#1883867) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself "The goal is less-is-more. Description is the road to tedium. I like ... " The key words here are "I like" ... Your criteria would dismiss every significant novelist from Jane Austen to Dickens to Tolstoy to Henry James to ... |
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12 Nov 06 - 01:12 PM (#1883901) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Snuffy Anyone fancy re-writing Tristram Shandy with a third person narrator? |
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12 Nov 06 - 01:48 PM (#1883933) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself Been there, done that. How 'bout someone re-doing the Bible in the first person? Get rid of that pesky omniscient, know-it-all Narrator ... |
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12 Nov 06 - 03:16 PM (#1884005) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Bee-dubya-ell On a more serious note than my previous post... I recently read Lee Smith's Fair and Tender Ladies which is told through a series of letters from the main character, addressed to various minor characters. I found it to be an effective twist upon conventional first person point-of-view in that there is no narrator per se. The main character tells the story, but doesn't speak directly to the reader. |
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12 Nov 06 - 04:03 PM (#1884063) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow Third person is a cheat. Author trying to cover all perspectives, playing God. First person is a more honest way to go. If it's about "honesty" surely it's the other way round, and the third person is more honest. Within the context of a narrative, the author is God. First person involves pretending not to be. |
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12 Nov 06 - 04:12 PM (#1884071) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: katlaughing First person to me seems more egotistical, at least for certain genres. Worked extremely well for James Herriot, though! I do not agree with the less is more in most cases. I was once told a story I'd written wasn't descriptive enough because I used words so sparingly. Most times I paint with my words and cannot imagine not describing the surroundings, feelings etc. going on in a story. Bee-dubya-ell, "Letters of a Woman Homesteader" is exactly that, only non-fiction, most chapters being the actual letters Elinore Pruitt Stewart wrote to her former landlady in Denver, from her homestead in WY. One of my favourite books. |
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12 Nov 06 - 04:23 PM (#1884079) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself "told through a series of letters from the main character, addressed to various minor characters. I found it to be an effective twist upon conventional first person point-of-view" This "effective twist" goes back to the earliest days of the English novel - Richardson used the same device in Pamela (1740)(http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=12050&pageno=3). |
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12 Nov 06 - 05:23 PM (#1884139) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,lox "Description is the road to tedium" If it's crap yes, but please ... Oscar Wildes short stories for his kids are ostentatious in their use of descriptive prose. I wouldn't use "tedious" to describe them if it were the last word in my vocabulary. |
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12 Nov 06 - 05:29 PM (#1884148) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow In fact constructing novels in the form of letters were the normal way to do it throughout the 18th century, and there are plenty of examples of it since then. I've sometimes thought that a novel in the form of emails and texts and personal messages and blogs and so forth could work quite well. Actually, maybe we are involved in collectively writing something on those lines here on the Mudcat. |
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12 Nov 06 - 05:33 PM (#1884150) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,lox Any serious novellist would have a field day using this site as a resource. Incidentally, methinks that many of the contributers to this forum display more than enough talent and imagination to write novels of their own. This has to be pretty good practice. |
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12 Nov 06 - 05:37 PM (#1884156) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Emma B I've read some excellent stuff from contributors to this site lox, there is a lot of talent here |
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12 Nov 06 - 05:43 PM (#1884160) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd Dostoevsky used the first person to great effect. The opening to "Notes From the Underground" is hard to beat as a succinct character study. It would hardly pack the same punch in third person: "I am a sick man. I am a spiteful man. I am an unpleasant man. I think my liver is diseased." In "The Dream of a Ridiculous Man," there is a similarly brilliant sequence: "I am a ridiculous man. They call me a madman now. That would be a distinct rise in my social position were it not that they still regard me as being as ridiculous as ever." God bless fucked-up, brilliant writers. Elmer |
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12 Nov 06 - 05:47 PM (#1884164) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd "Description is the road to tedium." I couldn't disagree more. Read some Colette, for one descriptive writer among the many. Her descriptions are so lush they make you want to eat the pages. Elmer |
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12 Nov 06 - 05:59 PM (#1884177) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow In oral storytelling descriptions are often best avoided, leaving listeners to fill in the gaps themselves. "There was a man walking through a forest" can be more vivid than a detailed description. One of the things that can make first person narratives particularly effective sometimes is that the narrators often won't describe themselves, and a reader has to construct the person using the clues given, and their own imagination. |
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12 Nov 06 - 06:19 PM (#1884194) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Big Al Whittle Depends whose writing. Isherwood does first person very well. Thackeray does third. Its the charm of the driver rather than the route taken. |
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12 Nov 06 - 07:54 PM (#1884261) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST First person the way to go. Novels are just egos interacting, so be honest and have POV through one character's ego. And avoid character name McGrath. Kiss of death. Toad of tedium. |
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12 Nov 06 - 08:26 PM (#1884290) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd Uh, "Song of Himself" by Walt Whitman. His mind boggles. |
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12 Nov 06 - 08:51 PM (#1884304) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar I've always preferred third person narrative myself, because looking through someone else's eyes alone always seemed rather boring (is sure as hell boring to write). And one sided. BUT, if you're looking to lead the reader in a certain direction through a certain viewpoint, first person is more effective (or maybe easier?). Also, 1st person can also be very effective in short stories. |
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12 Nov 06 - 08:57 PM (#1884307) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself McGrath - Does someone not like you, or is that GUEST actually you writing in the third person as an imaginative exercise? |
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12 Nov 06 - 09:19 PM (#1884320) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself "Actually, maybe we are involved in collectively writing something on those lines here on the Mudcat." Or maybe we are all characters in a novel being written by someone who has yet to, and may never, reveal himself. Or herself. Or myself. |
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13 Nov 06 - 08:15 AM (#1884589) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow Or maybe we are all characters in a novel being written by someone who has yet to, and may never, reveal himself. I think that about sums up our situation, not just on the Mudcat, but in this world. Nameless GUESTS are punctuation rather than characters. |
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13 Nov 06 - 09:22 AM (#1884634) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST Sexist. "Song of Oneself," by Walt Whitperson. |
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13 Nov 06 - 09:25 AM (#1884635) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Snuffy Or maybe we are all characters in a novel being written by someone who has yet to, and may never, reveal himself. Or herself. Or myself. It's been done before At Swim-Two-Birds |
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13 Nov 06 - 10:17 AM (#1884667) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST "Her descriptions are so lush they make you want to eat the pages" As fine an example of descriptive prose as anyone might care to meet. |
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13 Nov 06 - 10:18 AM (#1884668) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,lox sorry that was me _ I must remember to sign in |
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13 Nov 06 - 10:18 AM (#1884669) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox there we go |
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13 Nov 06 - 10:56 AM (#1884695) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd Why, thank you for the compliment, lox. But then again, someone with your handle might appreciate a food metaphor ; > ) A little cream cheese, a poppy seed bagel and a song of yourself, lightly toasted, might make the pages taste better. However, a croissant and apricot jam would be culturally more correct, in Colette's case. On the other hand, her last husband was Jewish, so a bagel with lox and cream cheese might be okay. Oh, the hell with it. I'm getting hungry. This could be a whole new thread: what to eat while reading specific books. It certainly would combine two of my favorite activities. Elmer |
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13 Nov 06 - 11:02 AM (#1884699) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox Ah! More lox and bagel's jokes. I retract everything nice I might have said previously. ;-) Tough if you're into pornographic stories about lox and bagels this is the site to find them. I'm not sure it constitutes literature, and you would neither be the 1st, 2nd or 3rd person to show an interest so don't be ashamed to try it out. If you find that lights your fire then JennyO (jenny bagel to those who relly know her) is the person to talk to next. >;-) |
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13 Nov 06 - 11:03 AM (#1884701) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox "Tough if you're into pornographic stories" should read "Though if you're into pornographic stories" Though, not tough. |
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13 Nov 06 - 11:04 AM (#1884702) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,Pesky wabbit 'Watership Down'? Oh noooooooooooooooooo! |
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13 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM (#1884772) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself "It's been done before At Swim-Two-Birds" Indeed, but nothing to say it can't be done again, like the novel in the form of letters, re-writing Tritram Shandy in the third person, etc. |
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13 Nov 06 - 12:20 PM (#1884774) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd You think I was joking? |
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13 Nov 06 - 12:29 PM (#1884787) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself Add "re-writing Tristram Shandy deleting all lower-case s's" to my previous list. |
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13 Nov 06 - 12:41 PM (#1884796) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Grab Description is the road to tedium Better avoid anything more complex than your typical airport thriller then! ;-) Description is where you *really* tell who's a good writer and who isn't. Check out Gerald Durrell for example, who can happily cover 3 pages describing a single moment in Corfu - and I wouldn't change a word of it. Back to the main question, it's like asking whether we prefer food or drink. They both give different styles and different ways of approaching the story. The one thing that I *don't* like though is a totally god-like third-person approach, where the author thinks they can dip into every character's head at random. That just doesn't work, and it's a sign of a bad writer. For third-person to work, if you're describing what people are thinking/feeling then it has to be from a limited set of characters or not at all. Graham. |
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13 Nov 06 - 12:48 PM (#1884799) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd Lox, fee free to make some Elmer Fudd jokes; everybody else does, including him, her, and me! In the meantime, here are some brief but devastating descriptions by Sidonie Gabrielle Colette, suitable for devouring straight, no chaser: The cat is the animal to whom the Creator gave the biggest eye, the softest fur, the most supremely delicate nostrils, a mobile ear, an unrivaled paw and a curved claw borrowed from the rose-tree. Truffles must come to the table in their own stock and as you break open this jewel sprung from a poverty-stricken soil, imagine - if you have never visited it - the desolate kingdom where it rules. Voluptuaries, consumed by their senses, always begin by flinging themselves with a great display of frenzy into an abyss. But they survive, they come to the surface again. And they develop a routine of the abyss: "It's four o clock. At five I have my abyss... " January, month of empty pockets! let us endure this evil month, anxious as a theatrical producer's forehead. |
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13 Nov 06 - 03:35 PM (#1884917) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself "For third-person to work, if you're describing what people are thinking/feeling then it has to be from a limited set of characters or not at all." That's far too broad a statement. This matter depends on the "contract" the writer has made with the reader: if by the end of the exposition, the author has told you that she is only going to get into the head of the protagonist, then it is certainly weak writing on her part to jump into the head of a passerby on page 89; if, however, she has made it clear from the outset that she's going to be inhabiting the heads of (potentially) all of her characters, there is no particular criticism that can be made on that count other than that you don't like it, or that it wasn't the right choice for the novel in question. There is certainly weighty precedent for the busybody omniscient narrator - Fielding, for example, in Tom Jones, delves into the thoughts and feelings of almost every character that enters the story. And to go back into the era preceding the novel, Shakespeare gives the otherwise most-insignificant spear-carrier asides that reveal what's going on in his head ... |
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13 Nov 06 - 04:25 PM (#1884953) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,lox Elmer, Believe me I wouldn't need the invitation. All's good in the Fudd. |
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13 Nov 06 - 04:27 PM (#1884958) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow The author is "god". Keeping out of the heads of some or all of the characters is often a good thing, often an essential thing (for example in a whodunnit), but it can't be a hard and fast rule. As Kipling put it: There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays And every single one of them is right. |
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13 Nov 06 - 06:03 PM (#1885049) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd I've heard of florid restaurant reviews reviled as "food porn," and I suppose pesky wabbit porn might involve Playboy bunnies (although that "Watership Down" reference was very clever, guest.peskywabbit). But wotthebloodyhell is lox and bagels porn? An in-joke from another thread? It does smack of JennyO's humour... Elmer |
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13 Nov 06 - 06:08 PM (#1885051) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Grab All plays are third person - they can't be anything else. But you're right, and I was wrong - I agree that inhabiting all the characters *can* be done. You've reminded me that one of my favourite set of books is Donaldson's Gap series, mainly because he does pull off the trick of having a zillion characters with their own motivations and each only knowing a small fraction of the whole situation. (It's not a "literary" set of books to cite, but by and large I reckon "literary" just means "old" and not necessarily "good. But that's another argument altogether. ;-) I guess the problem is that it takes a really first-rate author to make it works, and either it works or it fails utterly. Graham. |
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13 Nov 06 - 06:15 PM (#1885058) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox Elmer Yes it is from another thread - and it's not pleasant. That's all I have to say on the subject. |
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13 Nov 06 - 06:27 PM (#1885068) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd Grab, "Cold Mountain" by Charles Frazier is written in the third person with alternating chapters taking the points of view of the two main characters, a woman on Cold Mountain and an army deserter walking back to find her. It depicts the U.S. Civil War from their very different experiences. The book is brilliantly executed. Elmer Who wrote the Donaldson's Gap series? Sounds interesting. |
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13 Nov 06 - 06:36 PM (#1885076) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,Peskey wabbit R M Lockley was the Kinsey of the rabbit world but Chaucer knew a thing or two as well "The litel conyes to her play gunne lye" |
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13 Nov 06 - 06:58 PM (#1885094) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: katlaughing if you think Chaucer knew a thing or two, check out M'Catterbury Tales, esp. the ones posted by Lonesome EJ!:-> |
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13 Nov 06 - 09:09 PM (#1885181) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,memyself " ... it takes a really first-rate author to make it works, and either it works or it fails utterly." I think you're right there, and I think it's even more difficult to pull off in the contemporary novel - with the possible exception of those of the Cold Mountain ilk, in which points of view will alternate for entire sections. Barbara Kingsolver used this device to wonderful effect in Poisonwood Bible. But then, each of her sections is in the first person, which isn't quite what we were talking about ... |
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13 Nov 06 - 09:21 PM (#1885190) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow I can't see why it should be any harder in a contemporary novel than it always has been. It doesn't really make any greater demands on reader than in the past, which would be the only reason I can see why it might be harder to pull off these days. |
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14 Nov 06 - 12:32 PM (#1885565) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Grab The "Gap" series by Donaldson, Stephen... :-) Basically it's space opera - save humans from aliens and from a megalomaniac corporation-owner. But you really wouldn't believe the complexity of it. Donaldson is guilty of overwriting in places, but it survives that. I haven't done much solid reading recently. If Cold Mountain is worth it, might ask for that for Xmas. My top recommendation for character studies (and you can snigger all you want) is Guns of Navarone. It is to books what Clint Eastwood is to acting - so absolutely stripped-down that you might not see it happening. Graham. |
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14 Nov 06 - 03:16 PM (#1885676) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: katlaughing So how do you all feel about fictionalised autobiographies? |
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14 Nov 06 - 03:38 PM (#1885700) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: GUEST,lox what do you mean? |
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14 Nov 06 - 07:05 PM (#1885900) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Snuffy Most autobiographies are mostly fiction anyway, aren't they? |
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14 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM (#1885908) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Lox "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" - Ronnie Drew |
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14 Nov 06 - 07:17 PM (#1885913) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow "print the legend" - The Man who Shot Liberty Valance |
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14 Nov 06 - 07:27 PM (#1885926) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd I dunno. I think we can clever ourselves into the ground debating how "true" autobiographies really are. Of course people prevaricate, exaggerate, combine events, deliberately or innocently misremember things, etc . There are also a lot of writers struggling to find words to express their inner truth as accurately as words can suffice to do the job. That is why they bother to write at all. Anyone else read "This Boy's Life" by Tobias Wolff? I'd hazard a guess that it comes pretty close to Wolff's emotional truth. Elmer |
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14 Nov 06 - 07:53 PM (#1885953) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Elmer Fudd Didn't mean that last post to come out sounding as cranky as it did. I've read some autobiographies that set my teeth on edge with the not-so-hidden agendas of their authors, as well as others so self-revelatory as to be almost blinding in their purity. (The afore-mentioned "This Boy's Life" is one of those.) I recently had occasion to read a number of books about Jimi Hendrix written by various eyewitnesses. I read about the exact same events over and over, each seen through different eyes, each slanted in a manner designed to make the author (or the person standing in front of the ghostwriter) look good. Almost every "author" had a chip on his or her shoulder about something. The books appeared mostly to be written either to cash in on an association with Hendrix or to vent about wrongs committed by managers, record companies, lovers, etc. Each purported to "set the record straight." Talk about different truths! Elmer |
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14 Nov 06 - 07:53 PM (#1885954) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Emma B "Turlough" is an excellent fictionalized biography by Brian Keenan |
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14 Nov 06 - 07:55 PM (#1885959) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: Emma B I should say fictionalized "autobiography" - well worth a read |
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14 Nov 06 - 08:00 PM (#1885966) Subject: RE: BS: Novel preferences 1st or 3rd? From: McGrath of Harlow It's about Turlough O'Carolan (that's not a correction, Emma, it's an elucidation, for people who haven't read it.) |