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19 Nov 06 - 02:51 PM (#1888405) Subject: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: The Sandman Both these instruments seem well suited for traditional and contempororary folk song accompaniment, although the[ more modern] concertina seems to be associated, more with trad music, than contemporary. Both seem to have advantages and disadvantages,the guitar can be more difficult to play without imposing rhythym[ to play freely].The concertina has advantages that it is not susceptible [tuning wise]to temperature changes, but has none of the sympathetic ringin strings advantage of the guitar. Im assuming that the majority of mudcatters prefer the guitar[ I like them both], I would be interested to hear mudcatters preferences for song accompaniment,[andwhy] please vote for concertina or guItar or both. Dick Miles |
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19 Nov 06 - 03:29 PM (#1888428) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Fidjit Both. I play both. Each have their own reasons for being the instrument to accompany that song. They feel right. Have you forgotten, "voice"? Or was it left out on purpose? Some songs are better off un-accompanied. Chas |
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19 Nov 06 - 04:10 PM (#1888460) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Ernest Depends on the song - some go better together with one, some with another (or a third one: I`ve heard songs theat were accomanied by aolo fiddle, harmonica etc. thet sounded just perfect) Concertina is not as common as an instrument as the guitar, so it gets a point for originality. Best Ernest |
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19 Nov 06 - 07:31 PM (#1888592) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Mooh Had a 3 piece group for a festival this past year which consisted of vocal, concertina, guitar (me), and a little percussssion. The concertina and guitar sound great together and the concertina player really knew his melodies well, but I spent quite a while teaching him some basic chords. The concept was odd to him at first but once he started to hear the major and minor thirds, fifths and the odd sixth, he managed to fit them in as backup on select songs, and it sounded very good. I've often said to concertina and button box players around here that it must be like playing a portable pipe organ. Off-colour cracks aside, those things can be damn loud! With the right touch, it can support a song well. The next plan is to write harmonies or countermelodies for him to play. Peace, Mooh. |
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20 Nov 06 - 03:02 AM (#1888758) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: jonm I play both to sing to, plus (recently) a cittern too. A lot of the songs I do I learn for more than one instrument, so I can sing them even if I haven't got the concertina with me etc. I tend to find that accompanying with 'tina I tend to play the tune, then add chords and runs as appropriate; with the guitar it's chords and runs with elements of the tune or countermelody to taste. Strangely, sometimes the two end up very similar. The stuff I'd tend to accompany with just strumming and melody lines over ringing open strings or drones I find work much better on cittern now. I'd like the opportunity to record myself with both concertina and guitar to see how well they fit together. |
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20 Nov 06 - 08:05 AM (#1888852) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: GUEST In a busy session in a crowded room, a concertina (and case) has an obvious advantage over a guitar (and case) - size ! |
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20 Nov 06 - 08:23 AM (#1888860) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: treewind Obviously (to me, at least) neither instrument is "preferable" for song accompaniment - it depends entirely on the song. I'm half of a duo that has many instruments (not including a guitar, though) and we usually find for every song there's one instrumental arrangement that works perfectly and others that quite clearly don't. We also find that an English and Anglo concertina have quite different inherent song accompaniment styles, and that between 5 different melodeons there are good reasons for choosing one over the others for a particular song, and not just because of key. It's certainly true that the choice of instrument can make a huge difference to the whole style of a song performance. I suspect that a guitar in good hands has a very wide range of styles available. That would makes it a good choice if you want to use just one instrument, and may account for its popularity. By the way, I've always thought that concertina *and* guitar together is a nice instrumental combination. Almost as good as cello and banjo... Anahata |
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20 Nov 06 - 08:36 AM (#1888872) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Liz the Squeak I've managed to bust a concertina... no-one will let me have their guitars these days..... It's entirely down to song, situation and skill. A good song can be ruined by the wrong instrument for the venue or a badly played one. Mind you, a bad song can be greatly improved by a really loud concertina. LTS |
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20 Nov 06 - 11:47 AM (#1888997) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Bernard I use a variety of instruments, each to suit the song... Well do I remember the days when I couldn't sing and play an instrument at the same time even if my life depended on it...! The best way to start is to learn the accompaniment to the point where it is 'on auto-pilot', and then you can start to sing to it. These days I have progressed to the point where I can learn the words to a song, decide what instrument I'm going to use, and just launch into it without any 'practice'. In truth, of course, the 'practice' is years of experience. Sometimes a song will tell you what instrument to use, sometimes it takes a little forethought and planning. Most of the songs I accompany on English concertina are the quiet, wistful ones, with the Anglo or Accordion for the rowdier ones. I tend to use the six-string guitar for quieter songs, or those with an intricate accompaniment (and odd tunings), but the 12-string is used for the louder ones... but songs like 'Seth Davey' and 'Dirty Old Town' work better with the 12-string, even though they are quiet... Then there's the banjo, mandolin, mountain dulcimer, melodeon...!! When I turn up on a solo gig, people are looking around for the rest of the band!! Hah! |
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20 Nov 06 - 01:05 PM (#1889049) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Bernard Sorry, Dick, I didn't answer your original question...!! I lean more towards the guitar for accompaniment, which has probably more to do with the fact that it was the first one I found I could cope with, rather than anything else. The guitar's continuing popularity, despite its obvious shortcomings, is probably for that very reason - it is far easier to play a simple accompaniment in any key (helped, maybe, by a capo). When teaching people to play, I show them how to hold down a D chord, strum and sing 'Old Macdonald Had A Farm'... takes less than ten minutes, and they feel they have moved a mountain! I choose D simply because the A7 chord is so easy to move to and from, and plenty of songs will work with just those two chords. Then I break the bad news, and show them G...!! By this time, though, they are hooked enough for it not to matter, and they will work on it. This method was developed during many years of teaching primary school children - they found E - A - B7 too taxing, C - G - F (chords in order of being taught) only worked if you used four-string versions, which wasn't ideal, but most of them coped well with D - A7 - G... those who didn't weren't sufficiently interested. I did find that E - A - B7 needed to be taught in one go, showing them which finger didn't move in each change... never lift a finger unless you have to! E to A - leave the index finger on 3rd string, 1st fret, A to B7 leave 3rd finger on 2nd string, 2nd fret, and E to B7 leave 2nd finger on 5th string, 2nd fret. Rather than a song, I use a 12 bar blues to practice the chord changes, but a good song is 'The Happy Wanderer' (valdi-ri, etc!). |
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20 Nov 06 - 11:04 PM (#1889587) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Rowan Ah, Bernard, where were you when I needed such guidance, 50 years ago? Cheers, Rowan |
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21 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM (#1889672) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Bernard I often ask myself the same question...!! ;o) |
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21 Nov 06 - 08:03 AM (#1889786) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: The Fooles Troupe "I often ask myself the same question...!!" You could write a song about that - oh, wait ... "I've often said to concertina and button box players around here that it must be like playing a portable pipe organ." Only if you THINK like an 'organist' - if you think like a 'pianist', you'll not do very good... Robin A Piano Accordion player... (and ex-pipeorganist!) |
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21 Nov 06 - 10:10 AM (#1889885) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: EBarnacle Usually I act as a sideman for another player and build chords around the melody. I rarely play the concertina when leading, as my focus is on the lyrics. Sometimes, as with Shenedoah, I play one verse and then let other players accompany my singing. |
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23 Nov 06 - 10:58 AM (#1891758) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Fidjit I know this is about guitar vs conertina. And my answer to that is right up there aat the top. What I have difficulty with is singing whilst playing the Melodeon. Anyone got an answer how to get around the problem . And don't say DON*T! Seriously. I wonder if it is the fact that mostly I play melody with the left hand on the concertina when I sing with that instrument. Although I do a lot of right handed finger picking style guitar playing when singing with that instrument. With the melodeon I can start but get bogged down after a couple of bars (It's not the drink) and have to give up. Perhaps it's just practice? Anyone help And yes Anahta. I enjoyed you and Mary's "Bonny Light Horseman" with chello and banjo an excelant combo. Chas |
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23 Nov 06 - 03:35 PM (#1891983) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Rowan Chas, When I was starting with Anglo and also when I later started with melodeon I found the major problem (for me, anyway) when trying to sing with them, was that the instrument required a "breathing pattern" that was at odds with the one my voice required. Plugging away at it has allowed me to get a few accompanied songs off so, like much else in life, I suspect it just requires practising it. Cheers, Rowan |
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23 Nov 06 - 06:55 PM (#1892110) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Tootler I could never get on with the guitar in spite of three attempts at different times in my life. More recently I have found the Anglo works for me. I think that is what really matters - it is finding an instrument that works for you. OTOH, for some songs the best solution is to sing them unaccompanied. |
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23 Nov 06 - 07:25 PM (#1892129) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Betsy Hiya Fidjit , lovely to see you're giving it " Rock - all " and thankyou again for all your advice for music and sessions in Oslo which were very well directed . I write on your comments about not being able to sing and play the concertina at the same time. My memory fails but there was a chap who played concertina some years ago , who had a terrible, terrible, stammer,(even whilst doing his introductions) , then, when he played and sang - magnificently - showed no trace of the problem. The Wilson Family will tell me his name - a really pleasant and good performer. Whilst I was over in Oslo a group which contained both a talented concertina (the Geordie lad) and a good fiddle player a Norwegian lass seemed to cancel each other out - a bit like two people singing in unison, but , back to the question, the guitar can compliment the concertina , whistle or whatever, provided the guitarist knows the tune. Simply to strum does not constitute accompianment - but everyone has to learn and strumming must be seen as a stepping stone and don't get stuck on the same 3 or 4 chords . Cheers Betsy |
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23 Nov 06 - 08:12 PM (#1892152) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: GUEST,Jack Campin I have been listening to a lot of tango music lately, and occurs to me that I've never heard a British-Isles-idiom concertina player get anything like the sort of percussive attack those guys produce on the bandoneon and piano accordion. When they hit a chord they really HIT it. Why not? Can't a concertina do that? |
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24 Nov 06 - 05:12 AM (#1892307) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: The Sandman yes its finger attack and wrist attack.The English concertina,is a great instrument for playing just chords as is the Anglo.ITS CALLED DEVELOPING TECHNIQUE, If more concertina players played or listened to this music, it would probably happen and evolve. Betsy your talking about duncan turner [stage name steve turner]. personally I find different songs, are suited by differnt kind of accompanying instruments.my song accompaniment tutor gives aggod idea of some of the songs that are suitedby concertina ,but you have to be able to read music.Dick Miles |
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24 Nov 06 - 07:56 AM (#1892381) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Bernard Steve Turner's touring again (after a fourteen year break!) - he was a guest at the Open Door Extravaganza earlier this year, and will be at the Railway, Heatley, on March 22nd next year. His concertina playing is as good as ever! I tend to play chordally on both English and Anglo, though most players seem to use them as single line melody instruments, which is such a waste!! I don't always 'mirror the tune' when I'm singing, but it depends on the song. I sing Ted Edwards' Ladybird, for example, with very simple sustained chords on the English, and an instrumental melody break near the end. When I sing Ball o'Yarn, I sort of partly mirror the tune with staccato chords on the Anglo. |
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24 Nov 06 - 08:38 AM (#1892413) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Fidjit Betsy it's melodeon I have problem singing with. Concertina and guitar are just fine. Rowan. Thanks. I think it's practise, but as you see I play other things as well so times a factor. Also As I'm competant with the others it's back to basics and not as I want to be perfect straight away. So how does it go? "Twinkle, twinkle little star" How I wonder??? That should go down well at the club tonight. Chas |
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24 Nov 06 - 09:54 PM (#1892881) Subject: RE: concertinas and guitar for accompaniment From: Rowan Chas, Sometimes a sudden improvement in ability just leaps out unbidden. Years ago, when I'd only been playing Anglo for a couple of years or so (but not being able to sing with it) I took up 'spoon bass' melodeon. After about a year I was frustrated that, although I could do reasonable chords with the left hand while playing most songs and even dance tunes when playing Anglo, doing anything at all with the simpler two-spoon bass on the melodeon seemed beyond me, completely. Then, after being in Canberra one weekend for the monthly Yarralumla Woolshed dance (calling and playing mostly lagerphone) I had to hightail it, on the Sunday, all the way to the Grampians to be part of a school camp by early Monday morning. I arrived in the middle of the night, dog tired, pitched tent, and arose at dawn with a tune in my head that I'd never known before and a need to get it down to my fingers. It struck me as perfect for the melodeon so I pulled that out (instead of the leather ferret), sat on a stump in the rising sun, and started playing. Unbidden, the tune came straight out of the fingers of both hands at the same time and I've never looked back. It was years later that I found out the tune was to the song "The rabbit trapper". There had been a session at Mike Jackson's (where I and others in Higgins MMB and Dave de Hugard were staying) after the dance and Dave had been playing it, or so I worked years later. Something about being tired at the same time as being inspired with trying a new tune must have played into my hands. Singing came along in much the same way; "Two little girls in Blue" on the Anglo came first as I recall (I think it no accident that it was a waltz tune) and "Travelling down the Castlereagh" not long afterwards on the melodeon. Best of luck! Cheers, Rowan |