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24 Nov 06 - 08:53 AM (#1892425) Subject: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Mo the caller I am trying to play to play Iron Legs in D on a descant recorder. The A part is fine, just needs some practice, but the B arggggh! I need an alternative fingering that takes me from the E'F'E'F' to D'E'D'E' without me dropping the tune or the instrument. The dolmetch trill chart is Ok for C'D'C'D' but then it goes to D'E'D'E' again and the 2 D' fingerings they suggest just don't sound the same on my Aulos (or I'm doing something wrong). Any help for a fumble fingered 'perpetual beginner'? Then when I've got the diddle-diddles right I've got to get the change to diddle-da-da in the last bar but 2 into my head. |
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24 Nov 06 - 09:01 AM (#1892429) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Mo the caller Sorry, I meant to put a link. Click Dolmetsch page then on the trill chart (the direct link to Adobe didn't work) |
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24 Nov 06 - 09:06 AM (#1892430) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: treewind I'll ask some recorder player friends when I see them next, if I remember. What a wonderful place the Dolmetch site is. I often raid it for manuscript paper PDFs of dozens of different stave arrangements! Anahata |
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24 Nov 06 - 09:07 AM (#1892432) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Sorcha Liz the Squeak plays recorder. Might ask her. |
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24 Nov 06 - 09:33 AM (#1892453) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Mo the caller Hah! more investigation of the Dolmetsch site give me a more readable fingering chart (scroll down the page). But the 2 fingerings for D' still sound different. |
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24 Nov 06 - 11:14 AM (#1892511) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: GUEST,Jack Campin I don't see much problem - is this the tune? X:17 T:Iron Legs Hornpipe. JaW.017 M:C| L:1/8 Q:1/2=90 S:James Winder Ms, Lancashire, 1835-41 Z:vmp.Chris Partington, Aug 2004 K:D AG|F2AF E2AG|F2EF D2A2|B2c2 d2ed|c2Bc A2AG| F2A2 E2AG|F2EF D2A2|Bcde fedc|d2d2 d2 :| z2|fgfg egeg|fgfg egeg|dede cece|dede cece| BdBd AdAd|BdBd AdAd|Bcd2 gedc|d2d2 d2 :| Alternate fingerings for D don't usually work, I don't think I've ever used one in thirty years of playing recorders. Your right thumb and left-hand second finger don't move when going from D to E so the instrument is perfectly well balanced. I think you're most likely panicking at the thought of moving four fingers and half a thumb at once, but it isn't really difficult. I would suggest you just start playing the tune very, very slowly and make sure you are not using any unnecessary movements. Increase speed only when *nothing* goes wrong. You might get a smoother result in bars 5 and 6 of the B part if you used the alternate B fingering 0-23---- but there isn't much in it. |
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24 Nov 06 - 11:33 AM (#1892521) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: greg stephens That looks like the Winder MS tune, but I thought it was called Iron League in that. The iron Legs Hornpipe from William Irwin is I suspect the tune that Mo the Caller is trying to play, and the B music is I think(from memory) a little different. One solution to the problem might be to buy a fiddle, tenor banjo or mandoline, on which the tune is quite easy!! |
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24 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM (#1892577) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: GUEST,Jack Campin Mo, what version of the tune are you trying to play, if it isn't the one I posted? |
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24 Nov 06 - 06:08 PM (#1892760) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Mo the caller The B part is not quite what you posted. e'|f'g'f'g' e'f'e'f'|f'g'f'g' e'f'e'f'|d'e'd'e' c'd'c'd'|d'e'd'e' c'd'c'd'|bc'bc' abab|bc'bc' abc'a|bc'd'e' f'e'd'c'| d It's the dede bits that are hard and I wondered if there was an easier fingering. And is there a fools guide to writing out music using letters anywhere, I'm not sure if I've done it right. I did have a fiddle once, I don't know why everyone complained and told me to give up. After all I was nearer to it. Think I'll stick to playing one instrument badly. |
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24 Nov 06 - 06:11 PM (#1892764) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Tootler I checked JC's ABC Tune finder and the only version of Iron Legs Hornpipe that came up was the one Jack Posted. The alternative fingering for D' on the Dolmetsch website is in fact slightly flat which probably explains why you find the two D's different. I agree with Jack that this alternative is not actually a lot of use. What you can try is alternative fingerings for E'. There are three fingerings for E' on a C recorder (A' on an F recorder) all of which are in tune. The usual one is x 123 45-- You can also try - 123 45-- or - -23 45-- Try each of these in turn and you should find no noticeable difference in the note. A further thought; Try leaving fingers 4 & 5 on while fingering D, thus; - -2- 45-- Adding 4 & 5 has almost no effect on the D and means the "dede" can be played by moving just one finger, LH finger 3. Similarly leaving 4 & 5 on for C' works for the "cece" sequence. There is a slight difference compared with the standard C' fingering, but it is unlikely it would be noticed in a quick passage. |
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24 Nov 06 - 06:14 PM (#1892768) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Tootler Mo, Your message came in while I was writing mine, so you can ignore the last paragraph. As to your last question, you need the ABC home page. |
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24 Nov 06 - 06:22 PM (#1892774) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: greg stephens Neither the JC tunefinder nor Mo's version are quite what the"original"(ie the Irwin version) has in the B part. I suspect this is locatable in the Irwin section at the Village Music Project. |
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24 Nov 06 - 06:24 PM (#1892775) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: greg stephens The most intriguing thing about this tune is why it is called Iron legs. |
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24 Nov 06 - 06:47 PM (#1892789) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: GUEST,Jack Campin I worry about using off-pitch alternative fingerings at all. (I just posted about this in uk.music.folk, apropos the poor intonation of keyless flutes in inexpert hands playing Irish session tunes). It might seem like that flat C sharp doesn't matter since it's over quickly, but how many of those C sharps are there? In this example it has the effect of implying an A major chord, and people *do* notice if chord tones are out of tune, even more so if there are lots of them. Maybe the flattening might put you near a mean-tone third, and if the people you're playing with are in mean-tone too that's just peachy. But usually, not. This isn't such a hard tune in the standard fingerings if you work at it a bit. |
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24 Nov 06 - 06:49 PM (#1892793) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, with wooden fingers From: Mo the caller Thanks Tootler, that d/e fingering is a lot easier. |
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25 Nov 06 - 04:10 AM (#1893010) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: treewind Jack wrote "start playing the tune very, very slowly and make sure you are not using any unnecessary movements. Increase speed only when *nothing* goes wrong." Bingo! The secret of success in playing anything on any instrument that you can't get right at first. Anahata |
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25 Nov 06 - 08:18 PM (#1893604) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Tootler It might seem like that flat C sharp doesn't matter since it's over quickly First of all an apology. I had forgotten the tune was in D and I was thinking Cnat to E rather than C# to E and the suggestion I made was for an alternative Cnat fingering not a C# fingering. As to alternative fingerings, they can be very useful so I would not dismiss them out of hand. I agree it is important to be aware that some alternative fingerings are more in tune than others and there is a need to be aware accordingly. The alternatives I gave for E are all in tune and are extremely useful and I use them all the time. The suggestion I gave for D - E was taught to me by a classically trained professional recorder player as a D/E trill and it is both much easier and more in tune than the one given in most fingering charts. It is also useful for playing a roll on D as it only involves moving one finger and the thumb. I agree with Anahata's comment and would add one other thing - listen carefully, especially when playing with others. The recorder is a very sensitive instrument and it is possible to make small adjustments in intonation as you go |
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26 Nov 06 - 08:16 AM (#1893867) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Mo the caller Thanks. Next month I am providing some tunes for a Band Workshop that we go to, so my usual 1 note per bar (at the speed they play) will not be good enough, an incentive to practise. I'm getting the tune into my head now and starting to wonder about tongueing. Would you tongue all the notes separately? |
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26 Nov 06 - 11:36 AM (#1893970) Subject: RE: Playing Iron legs, on recorder (descant) From: Tootler Tonguing is something to which there is no simple answer. Irish style flute/whistle playing uses very little tonguing but instead make use of grace notes and decoration to give the stress where you might otherwise use your tongue. Overall the use of tonguing and grace notes is part of developing your own style. Having played a lot of classical music on the recorder, I tend to tongue quite a lot, but through going to folk music classes at the Sage in Gateshead, have been learning to use gracing more. As a general rule it is not a good idea to tongue every note, but to vary what you do to give interest. Joey Oliver who plays whistle in 422 made a very good point that you need to know, and be able to use both tonguing and gracing so you can make informed use of both to best effect. It is worth listening to both traditional flute & whistle music and bagpipe music. Gracing is an essential part of piping technique as pipers cannot tongue for obvious reasons. I find Northumbrian pipes particularly interesting in this respect as the stopped end of the chanter and the closed fingering system makes staccato playing possible. Staccato is probably the wrong word as it implies a shortening of the note (which is sometimes used to good effect) but the Northumbrian piper can detach notes from one another and it is this that plays an important role in the Northumbrian pipers' style compared with other traditional pipes in the British Isles. Sorry if this has not given much direct suggestions but I really do think there is no simple answer to the issue of tonguing. |