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29 Nov 06 - 12:47 PM (#1895718) Subject: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: RTim I am sure I could find this out with a lot of searching - but I thought it easier to ask the Mudcat experts! At what time did the Church of England standardise the Christmas Carols and do away with many Traditional carols and West Gallery type carols and replace them with those commonly sung today - and what were the circumstances for this change? Was it the introduction of the Organ, or was it deeper than that? Tim Radford |
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29 Nov 06 - 12:56 PM (#1895723) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: MMario Could you explain a bit more fully for those of us not in the UK? Your question is a bit confusing - especially since many of the carols I grew up on here in the US are in the older carol collections so haven't been "replaced" at all. |
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29 Nov 06 - 12:56 PM (#1895725) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Liz the Squeak Probably the introduction of a common hymn book. There were/are still little pockets of resistance where the traditional songs were sung 'because we'd allus sung 'em thik way' but these have migrated from church to pub and house session. With the introduction of a common hymnal, be it the 'English Hymnal', 'Hymns Ancient and Mediaeval', sorry, 'Modern' or the good old 'Songs of Praise', a standardised version of the tunes and words was available throughout the country. The demise of the 'West Gallery' players probably hastened the end of their type of caroling; as each former member grew older and less able, they might not all have been so diligent in passing on song books, word sheets and instruments. New organs in churches wanting to look 'progressive' and organists who learned from the books rather than from the aural tradition would have hastened the end of the quire. Funny though, with all the new hymns and songs of worship that are being produced every year, hardly any of the carols we sing regularly are less than 80 years old. LTS |
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29 Nov 06 - 01:11 PM (#1895731) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: MMario ah - light begins to dawn... As I understand it (at least from what I can find out on the web) most of the "standard" carols are "a" version of a carol that was sung in multiple forms previously; they are beginning to fragment back into different versions here in the US - depending on what denomination's hymnal you learn them from - or which performaer's album! Get 10 people together to sing a carol and chances are you will end up with at least 5 versions. |
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29 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM (#1895766) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Little Robyn If you go to Padstow in Cornwall at Christmas time you'll hear some different carols. Some have different names for well known carols - 'Harky, harky' is 'Hark the Herald Angels sing', 'Come and Worship' is 'Angels from the realms of glory' and 'Zadoc' is 'While shepherds watched' but the tunes are different too. About 35 years back Johnny Worden published a book called 'Strike Sound' with a collection of the Padstow Carols and I believe there is a recording as well. Apparently the Padstow Carols were mentioned by Hone in a book published in 1823 but I don't have a reference for it. Some of the tunes may be older - Zadoc is supposed to be from Purcell's time, but some are Victorian and owe a lot to the Methodist influence. When the choir is about to start, the leader sings 'Strike sound' which appears to set the pitch (and tempo?), a bit like the Scottish country dance bands Ba-dah at the beginning of a dance. I understand there were different carols all around Cornwall - Redruth, St Ives, Morwenstow and St Keverne, according to Inglis Gundrey. Robyn |
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29 Nov 06 - 03:00 PM (#1895838) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: IanC There are still a variety of carols sung locally with local versions and tunes. HOWEVER, versions of the words only of many hymns and carols were published from the 16th century on. This left singers without a given tune for them, and so favourite tunes were used (often folk melodies). For example, there were reputedly over 1,000 tunes in use for "While Shepherds Watched" (including one later used for a famous Yorkshire anthem). It wasn't until the publication of "Hymns Ancient and Modern" in 1861 that music was provided, and this served to standardise the music used for many hymns in many churches. A&M didn't have many Christmas Carols, only about half a dozen of the ones we know, but ones commonly used for Epiphany, Easter etc. are now sung for Christmas ("The Holly and The Ivy" was an Easter carol) and subsequent hymnals (e.g. "The English Hymnal" and "Songs of Praise") included more carols, again with music. Many of the carols we now use (over half, in fact) were written since 1861 anyway and these mostly had their own tunes. In the 20th Century, musicians like Elizabeth Poston and John Rutter also revived a number of medieval and antiquarian carols. Few of these had any music and so the melodies composed by Rutter or Poston have become the "standard" versions used for these. All in all, nothing like so simple as "when did these become standardised", you see. All part of life's rich tapestry, really. :-) PS. in Ashwell, we sing "We Three Kings" to the tune of "House of The Rising Sun" and "Away in A Manger" to "Green Grow The Laurels". |
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29 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM (#1895850) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Cats Jon and I are both Padstow Carollers and have been singing them for over 20 years, even though we are incomers. We are not a choir, just a group of local people who gather together and sing the carols from the Padstow area, meeting in the Market Square at about 7 - 7.30 before going around the town to sing. We start this Sunday. There is a tradition of village or local carols which is still found in pockets around the UK, Padstow, Sheffield, some areas of Derbyshire etc. There are also collections of other carols e.g. in Dorset, which are old carols which were sung by the quires before the introduction of hymns ancient and modern. It was mainly during the victorian era that they were replaced and a good descriptions of how it came about can be found in the novels of Thomas Hardy. Carols sung like this have a much more intense feel about them and singing them so they ring out across the water of the harbour is just magical. Christmas isn't Christmas until we've sung the carols. Strike Sound. |
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29 Nov 06 - 04:12 PM (#1895911) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Folkiedave And as a Sheffield caroller (Dungworth Branch) I give a hearty Hark Hark to that. It really is an intense physical experience as it says here. http://www.folk-network.com/events/2006/carols_06.html This weekend there is The Festival of Village Carols which sells out the moment tickets go on sale. Like Cambridge Folk Festrival or Sheffield United v. Sheffield Wednesday. There is also a pocket of traditional carols in the USA at Glen Rock, York County, Pennsylvania, where I shall be lucky enough to be on Xmas Eve this year. There is also a pocket of Cornish carols in Grass Valley California and possibly in Australia. They were certainly sung there. Vic Gammon's thesis whose name I have forgotten deals with this change to Hymns Ancient and Modern and away from "Village Carols". |
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29 Nov 06 - 07:21 PM (#1896012) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Les from Hull Hymns Ancient and Modern was originally published in 1861 with a more successful edition published in 1875. It has just these Christmas Hymns 55 O come, Redeemer of mankind, appear 56 Of the Father's love begotten 57 O Christ, Redeemer of our race 58 God from on high hath heard 59 O come, all ye faithful 60 Hark, the herald angels sing 61 Christians, awake! salute the happy morn 62 While shepherds watched their flocks by night 63 O Saviour, Lord, to thee we pray This was later supplemented by the Oxford Book of Carols - published in 1928, which would often be used by the choir, but not usually by the congregation. |
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29 Nov 06 - 07:44 PM (#1896030) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Liz the Squeak The Methodists published many books of hymns, mostly written by Charles and John Wesley - which included 'Hymns for the Nativity of Our Lord' published 1745. "A large number of hymnbooks were in use by disparate groups within the Church of England by the mid-Victorian period, and a chance meeting in a railway carriage by two clergymen led to the formation of a group of like-minded supporters to consider the viability of producing a single hymnal." from http://www.hymns.faithweb.com/. Unfortunately, I can't find a comprehensive list of these hymnbooks. LTS |
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29 Nov 06 - 08:39 PM (#1896070) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: McGrath of Harlow The Oxford Book of Carols has quite a lot of Carols in several versions and with alternative tunes. Well, Vaughan Williams was one of the editors, so you'd expect it to contain lots of folk songs, which it does. It's got a splendid preface by his fellow editor Percy Dearmer (the third one was Martin Shaw) outlining the history of Carols, and how the traditional Folk Carols struggled to survive in face of clerical disapproval - very much the same story as the opposition to West Gallery Music in the same period. I couldn't find the Preface on the net, but it might be there somewhere. If Tim Radford, who started this thread, could read it I think he'd find it useful. So would anyone else interested in Carols, which I suppose at this time of year means most of us. |
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29 Nov 06 - 08:45 PM (#1896076) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: wysiwyg Hmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!! ~S~ |
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30 Nov 06 - 04:12 AM (#1896278) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: The Fooles Troupe A few years ago there was an "English Trad Carols" run in Brisbane. Unfortunately I haven't heard of it again. (or was that fortunately for my fellow singers...) :-) |
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30 Nov 06 - 06:28 AM (#1896358) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Liz the Squeak I have a copy of the English Folk carols collected by Sharpe and to be perfectly frank, they are as tedious as all get out. It may be that my sight reading isn't so good, my piano skills are zero or the arrangements are poor, but they really are not the beautiful things that rose tinted hindsight makes them. I'm happy to scan them and Email if people want to PM me an email address, but one of them has about 30 verses! (Christmas ballad anyone?) LTS |
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30 Nov 06 - 09:13 AM (#1896475) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Snuffy Quite a few old carols in the various other pages listed at The Folk Mag as well as those on the West Midlands carols page. All with dots and MIDI |
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30 Nov 06 - 11:15 AM (#1896542) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Folkiedave There has been a process of selection going on in Sheffield and in my time (30+ years) there have been new carols (songs) added and old carols (songs)seem to have disappeared from the repertoire. An example is "Portugal" gradually being introduced as I write (well if it was Sunday). Cracking carol, wonderful refrain, at the moment done unaccompanied, will probably become part of the repertoire next year. At the Black Bull at Ecclesfield where the singing is unaccompanied and thus a little slower - IMHO the songs are a mostly a bit dreary. Likewise the Castleton carols are the type of music to cut your throat by. Having said all that - I wouldn't miss them for a gold pig. |
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30 Nov 06 - 01:07 PM (#1896642) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: RTim My main interest in asking the original question was simply to find a quick way of introducing some of the lesser known traditional and west gallery type carols that I sing here in America to Americans (Being English myself!). Yes - I do own an Oxford Book of Carols - but I was being lazy!! Thanks for all your help. Tim Radford |
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30 Nov 06 - 07:43 PM (#1897015) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Genie Then -- or should I say "now"? -- there's the way modern mass media and instant communication can 'change the lyrics or tune' to a song almost overnight. E.g., last night on the NBC Christmas tree lighting celebration, Lionel Richie modified the lyrics to "Joy To The World," and I'll be surprised if some of those changes don't get echoed all over the internet and in singalongs in short order -- just because TV reaches so many people so quickly. I have often seen such things happen with other Christmas carols and commonly sung songs. It's like "the folk process" only at warp speed. A similar thing happens with authorship attribution, E.g., while the origin, date, and authorship of "Stille Nacht" is clearly documented and easy to find, all it seems to take is a few books or CDs that list it as "traditional" before millions of people come to accept that error as fact. |
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04 Dec 06 - 06:51 AM (#1899465) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: GUEST |
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04 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM (#1899522) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: GUEST,Cats Are you the same Tim Radford that used to work with Jon Heslop? |
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04 Dec 06 - 08:16 AM (#1899527) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: RTim Cats Asks - Are you the same Tim Radford that used to work with Jon Heslop? I knew a Jon Heslop over 30 years ago when I used to sing at The Focsle in Southampton - but I never worked with him. I last saw him at Padstow 2 or 3 years ago (I currently live in the USA). Tim Radford (www.timradford.com) |
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04 Dec 06 - 08:45 AM (#1899556) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: GUEST,Cats Same Jon Heslop, Tim. My mistake, I thought you worked at the OS as well as being at the Focsle. I'm his partner of 19 years standing. |
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04 Dec 06 - 08:51 AM (#1899565) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Liz the Squeak A good place to start might be to find out when the 'Bethlehem Carol Sheets' were first produced.. published by Biblelands , the charity has been around for at least 150 years. These tend to be the standard carol sheets handed round at concerts, carolling and services at this time of year... Their mass production and easy availability limited the number of different carols to what would fit on the sheet (about 25 on my sheet circa 1975) and if the tune was not familiar, it wouldn't be sung. These sheets have been available for at least 30 years, but I can't find any date for the first publication. They do usually contain a few that aren't in any hymn book ('The Holly and the Ivy' and Good King Wenceslas' for instance...) but have become part and parcel of the Christmas carolling tradition. LTS |
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05 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM (#1900966) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Genie Alternative Christmas Songs: Iraq |
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05 Dec 06 - 05:14 PM (#1900971) Subject: RE: Christmas Carol standardisation? From: Genie Oops! -- Sorry about that. I posted in the wrong thread. Maybe a Joe clone will delete my last post and this one. |