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05 Dec 06 - 09:50 AM (#1900543) Subject: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne It is one of our Yuletide traditions in my family that I salt a ham for the feast. This year, due to anti-terrorist laws in UK I can't buy any saltpeter. This seems ridiculous to me. I believe it is because saltpeter is used in bomb making. You can, I believe, also make bombs using weed-killer which is freely available on the shelves of garden centres. I don't want to make a bomb! I only want to salt my ham. My family will be very sad if I can't. Anyone know wherre I can obtain some saltpeter? Love Lynne |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:00 AM (#1900547) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Keith A of Hertford School science labs may have it as pottassium nitrate. Know any teachers? |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:05 AM (#1900552) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: John MacKenzie Try here Lynne, it's where I get my bacon curing bits from. Giok |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM (#1900553) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Les from Hull I think there's a method involving wood-ash and pee. I'm sure there'll be a chemist along in a minute. |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:10 AM (#1900554) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MMario www.sausagemaking.org |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM (#1900562) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Rapparee I've got a couple small jars in my basement, but I'm not at all sure about shipping it. Get ahold of a book called "Foxfire 5." There are quite detailed instructions in it for making saltpeter and, beyond that, your very own gunpowder. The ingredients of the KNO3 include old manure (chicken is best) and what is euphemistically called "chamber lye." I would say, "Have a blast!" but I'd better not. |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:25 AM (#1900568) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: JohnInKansas Technical correction: It's not weed killer that one would use to make a bomb. It's fertilizer. Almost any fertilizer will work, although ammonium nitrate seems to be preferred by the nutcases. I'll also sympathize and agree that banning saltpeter in quantities appropriate to salting a ham seems a bit over the top. It would take a fairly large amount to make a "useful" bomb, although one might make a few pretty impressive firecrackers with a cup of it. It's been a very long time since I've encountered a genuinely nitrated ham. (The medical advice that the nitrate is bad for your innards has caused many people to use alternates.) The few I've run into recently who do their own all seem to use ordinary salt - sometimes insisting on "genuine sea salt" - often with a bit of ascorbic acid added to "sour" it a little. Perhaps an alternate recipe could be found; but you likely don't have time to try out new-fangled stuff between now and the holidays. Legend holds that one can make their own. I don't recall that it included details of the recipe, but the DT may have the lyrics to "John Harrolson," "Von Hindenberg," or "Chamber Lye" where you might find reference to the DIY method, or check This Post. John |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM (#1900570) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Geoff the Duck It's REALLY REASSURING as a Yorkshireman to know that UK Anti-Terrorist laws do not apply in Lancashire, and they are allowed to stockpile high explosives encased in sausage skins. Ah Well... I'll get my black puddin! Quack! GtD. |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:31 AM (#1900576) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Geoff the Duck JiK - Weedkiller in the form of Sodium Chlorate has long been used for its explosive properties. I believe it was also mixed with treacle so that it would stick to the sides of tanks and other military armoured vehicles. Not that I claim to be an expert on such things, you understand. Quack! GtD. |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:50 AM (#1900589) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Les from Hull That's why they're call 'bangers', Geoff. An other method for getting saltpetre would be to get some gunpowder (black powder) like from a firework and very gently shake it for quite a long time. The white bits are the the bits you want. Through the black bits and the yellow bits away. |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:50 AM (#1900590) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Gervase Lynne, you can make the ham without the saltpetre, only it won't be a pleasing pink colour - it'll be greyer. http://www.naturalcasingco.co.uk/ and http://www.sausagemaking.org/ are where virtually every home curer in the UK gets their saltpetre from, however. It copsts around four quid for half a pound, which is plenty. Get some suplphur from the garden centre and grind up some barbecue charcoal, and make some proper crackers with what's left over! Be careful if you're tempted to buy readymade curing mixes from the sausage man - some of them are based on potassion nitrite rather than nitrate and thus have a shorter shelf-life and (because the nitrite is toxic) you have to be more careful about quantities. Even the nitrate is bad for you in large quantities - the FDA in the US outlawed its used in bacon in 1989. That said, nearly all bacon in the UK is made with it and saltpetre, as E252, is approved for organic bacon. |
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05 Dec 06 - 11:20 AM (#1900625) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Sorcha Here, I can buy TenderQuick....Morton brand. Mix of saltpetre and salt. |
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05 Dec 06 - 11:26 AM (#1900635) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MMario I googled for a bit - and it seems what you want to get now is called (among other brand names) Prague Powder - which is saltpeter premixed with salt. there are two major types - one is primarily for dry cured sausages and should NOT be used for meats which will be exposed to high temperatures. cutting the salptpeter with salt evidently lets them get around the controls of buying the more concentrated chemical. |
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05 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM (#1900727) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Gervase Unfortunately, in the UK Prague Powder tends to be made wth nitrite rather than nitrate (particularly the Cure Number One variety), being designed for the industrial sausage-maker, and thus you need to be extremely careful when measuring quantities for your home cures - in the order of tenths of a gramme. Get it wrong and you will not be a very well bunny. Best to stick with the old fashioned saltpetre, which is cheaper and less of a bother to use. |
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05 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM (#1900765) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Q (Frank Staplin) When I was in a military school, the rumors had it that they put saltpeter in meats to reduce our rampant libidos. As a result we stayed away from most cured meats in the dining hall. Just a latrine legend, but it affects my eating habits to this day. Very little is needed. About 1/4 teaspoon potassium nitrate (salt peter) is enough to add to the coat of one ham and one bacon. |
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05 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM (#1900812) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne Well thanks guys! Can't beat the old Mudcat if you want to find out anything! I will hopefully now be able to do my ham in time for Yule. You are all invited to a slice! Love Lynne |
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05 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM (#1900818) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Cruiser Q I heard the same thing while in the military, therefore: No saltpeter in or on any kind of ham for me. |
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05 Dec 06 - 02:47 PM (#1900836) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: John MacKenzie That was bromide guys! G. |
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05 Dec 06 - 02:53 PM (#1900841) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: bobad MBSLynne Would you let us know how you prepare your cured ham? |
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05 Dec 06 - 03:29 PM (#1900879) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Rapparee I don't understand -- was her ham sick? |
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05 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM (#1900895) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: catspaw49 My mind is just way out warped, but am I the only one who finds the name saltpeter at least mildly amusing if not completely ludicrous? The mental image alone cracks me up. Of course other words and phrases do likewise and no one else is bothered.........I think I got a warped groove............. BTW...... "Bomb Building" gets 4,700,000 hits on Google "Ham Curing" gets 1,200,000 hits on Google Spaw |
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05 Dec 06 - 03:50 PM (#1900900) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Rapparee When my brothers and I discovered that sodium nitrate was used in hot dogs, we started singing "I wish I had an Oscar Meyer weiner/'Cause if I had an Oscar Meyer weiner/There's no telling the damage I could do." We also considered sticking a fuse in a hot dog and seeing if it would explode. |
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05 Dec 06 - 04:12 PM (#1900918) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne Bobad, it's really pickled I guess...I'd like to dry-cure it but need a container where the liquid can be allowed to drain off, so pickling is easier. I make a brine by bringing 8 pints of water, 1lb salt and 1/2 oz saltpeter to the boil then remove from the heat and leave to cool. While it's cooling I sterilize a lidded plastic bucket and a glass plate. Put the leg of pork, or whatever joints you wish to salt, into the bucket with the plate on top to keep the whole thing under the surface then pour in the brine. Put the lid on and leave in a cool place for 8-10 days. It won't hurt if it's left longer. When ready, I bring the ham to the boil and pour off the first lot of water, cover with water again and add things like peppercorns, bay leaves, onion, cloves and whatever else takes my fancy. Juniper berries are supposed to be good. Then I simmer it for less than the required time for the weight, remove it from the water, wrap it in foil and bake it in the oven for the rest of the time. Finally, I wrap it in cloth and put it in my lovely old meat-press, tightening it a turn every now and then until it won't turn easily, then leave it overnight. And that's it! Love Lynn PS I can guarantee that the salt peter doesn't interfere in any way with the libido! |
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05 Dec 06 - 04:16 PM (#1900924) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: GUEST MBSLynne said: "PS I can guarantee that the salt peter doesn't interfere in any way with the libido!" Well, some of us older gentlemen need a bit more evidence and assurance than that ma'am. |
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05 Dec 06 - 04:19 PM (#1900925) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: bobad Thanks Lynne, I follow right up to the meat press. What the heck is that - sounds like a medieval torture implement? My mother used to prepare hams at Easter and Christmas in a similar fashion except she spiced the brine and only baked the ham afterwards. |
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05 Dec 06 - 04:24 PM (#1900929) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: GUEST bobad I'm telling you if you eat that salt petered receipe then you ain't gonna have to worry about your ham 'cause "your goose will be cooked" |
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05 Dec 06 - 05:05 PM (#1900960) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Rowan Spaw, your reference to salting peters (while amusing, and provoking thought on the phrase "banging on") only makes sense in the version of English domiciled between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Everywhere else saltpetre is the common name of the chemical in English. Cheers, Rowan from Australia, where the legislation has just been implemented that requires special controls on such chemicals but allows looser controls on quantities up to 3kg. Thankfully I don't have a swimming pool and thus don't have to even think about "pool chlorine", also a red hot oxidising agent sold in bulk. |
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05 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM (#1901210) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Q (Frank Staplin) Trivia- Saltpeter in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. Saltpetre in the OED. Should be pronounced salt peetry? English 1501- salt petir English 1528- salte peter (salty peter?) English 1580- saltpeeter Spirits of saltpeter = Nitric acid Captain Smith's Seamans Grammar- moistned with Oyle of Salt-Peter. 18th Century - Became fairly well standardized* as saltpetre in England. (Americans preserved Peter). * OED preferred spelling. (Standardised is illiterate according to Inspector Morse). Call it potassium nitrate and avoid linguistic nastiness. |
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05 Dec 06 - 09:24 PM (#1901222) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: The Fooles Troupe "When I was in a military school, the rumors had it that they put saltpeter in meats to reduce our rampant libidos" It's just starting to work on you now, isn't it? BTW, 'Mythbusters' refused to publish what the 'farm chemical that caused trousers to explode' was - I thank you muchly... |
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05 Dec 06 - 09:30 PM (#1901226) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpetre for my Yuletide ham From: The Fooles Troupe "We also considered sticking a fuse in a hot dog and seeing if it would explode. " The Mythbusters also powered a rocket with Salami... boy, did it fly... BTW.... a relevant thread ... Where has ...white dog shit gone... |
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05 Dec 06 - 09:50 PM (#1901233) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: catspaw49 LOL.....Yeah Rowan, I know, but words, as you know, often run off and are lost far afield from their origins. They then become the fodder of jokers and punsters or are left out there to hang and make us all wonder, trying to think back on things like........... Where the hell did "lickety-split" ever come from? Lickety-Split? Geeziz, are you huffing me or what? Lick? Split? Yeah, right then......... Or what about "Petered Out" for that matter? Or "Fagged Out" as in tired? Where the hell did that one come from? All of those have some interesting imagery in today's use of the words................. Spaw |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:03 PM (#1901240) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Q (Frank Staplin) Wal, dash my buttons! |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:23 PM (#1901253) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Q (Frank Staplin) Digression- We need to revive one of the threads on interesting words. I looked up lickity-split. First in print in 1831 as "He ran down the street lickity cut, and is probably at home by this time." Became lickity-split a few years later. J. E. Lighter, Historical Dictionary of American Slang, vol. 2. |
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05 Dec 06 - 10:43 PM (#1901260) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Rowan I agree Spaw. Saltpeter/saltpetre doesn't really bother me. Oil of hartshorn is a different matter. I used to know lots of outdated chemical names but the only one that gets up my nose is the modern one foisted on us traditionalists by chemists who had no sense of tradition (or spelling) and changed sulphur to sulfur. Especially when it was burned. There's been some discussion, elsewhere, of the similarity between guitar shapes and women's anatomy and your "Petered Out" brought an image or two to mind. Peter Bellamy, who as you know played anglo concertina, used to demonstrate a guitarist's affection for his instrument with consequent and sexually relevant actions. He'd then demonstrate an Anglo player's version of the Act of Congress. Lots of bellows-action rapidly going in and out while the air button was depressed; much agitated puffing. Then, taking his left hand out of the wrist strap he'd slowly let air into the bellows so that the sagging droop of the instrument visibly demonstrated the finality of it all. And people wonder why the concer is called (fondly) the leather ferret. Cheers, Rowan |
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05 Dec 06 - 11:00 PM (#1901271) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Q (Frank Staplin) Sulfur, sulfuris, is Latin for English sulphur, American (preferred) sulfur. The chemists are only following tradition for scientific appellations. The English literary usage is not affected by codified or international rules for naming chemicals. |
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06 Dec 06 - 01:18 AM (#1901302) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Bert It was originally mined in Petra in Jordan. It was called Salt of Petra which eventually morphed to saltpeter. |
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06 Dec 06 - 02:38 AM (#1901319) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Slag Potassium nitrate is very simple to extract from many natural sources. Its also the active ingredient in stump remover. But leave it out of you ham. It reacts to certain biochemistries in the ham to produce nitrites which are carcinogenic. Salt, smoke, are the way to go. Many alternatives for curing exist without the dangerous side effects of PN3. |
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06 Dec 06 - 03:07 AM (#1901328) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne Yes, but for some strange reason, it doesn't taste the same when it isn't pink! Unfortunately, I don't have the facilities for smoking it, or I would certainly do so. People have been eating saltpetred ham for generations and a lot of them managed to survive. I still tend to subscribe to the belief that if you avoided eating everything that has possible carcinogenic properties, you'd starve to death. Some people ahve mentioned potassium nitrate and others sodium nitrate. Which is it? Bobad, I found my meat press in an antiquey junkie sort of shop.It's possibly Edwardian and they were certainly used in Victorian kitchens. It's a galvanized can with no bottom, but a ridge around the bottom which holds the perforated galv. disc which sits inside. You put the ham on top then another disc on top of that then there is a screw in the top which you tighten to press the top disc down, squeezing the ham. Any water is drained out of the bottom. You can put it in a bowl with a plate on top and weight the plate down, though you then have to drain off any liquid from the bowl occasionally. Love Lynne |
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06 Dec 06 - 03:12 AM (#1901330) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne On the subject of the evolution of words, it's something I find fascinating. The area in which I live was once part of the "Danelaw" so populated by our Danish and Viking invaders. If you search out the dialect words used (generally only by the older people these days, unfortunately)around the area, a lot of them have Danish origins. Is this thread creep? Love Lynne |
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06 Dec 06 - 03:38 AM (#1901339) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne I thought the petre bit came from a word for rock, as in petrified, and that saltpetre was what they call rock salt Love Lynne |
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06 Dec 06 - 03:53 AM (#1901348) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Micca No, Lynne, Saltpetre is definately Potassium Nitrate, Sodium Nitraate has different properties due to the different motility of the Sodium Ion,compared to the Potassium (thats also why Potassium Chloride, used as Lo Salt, tastes a LOT saltier than Sodium Chloride. and thus leads to you using less) |
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06 Dec 06 - 05:29 AM (#1901378) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpetre for my Yuletide ham From: The Fooles Troupe Too much ingested potassium can upset the chemical balance in the body - and can cause serious health problems. |
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06 Dec 06 - 05:57 AM (#1901393) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne Yes, but presumably 1/2 oz in the water in which the meat is soaked, with the meat then boiled, drained and boiled again, shouldn't count as 'too much'? Thanks Micca, I was hoping you'd show up...in fact, you don't have any contacts through whom you could get hold of saltpetre do you? Just by the way, why DOES the addition of saltpetre cause the meat to go pink? And if it's possible to do the ham with just salt, why do we use saltpetre in the first place? Love Lynne |
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06 Dec 06 - 06:27 AM (#1901405) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: The Fooles Troupe Not an expert, sorry, just a general purpose 'know-all'.... :-) |
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06 Dec 06 - 07:26 AM (#1901427) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: Ella who is Sooze Just cook it normally... meat stays pink - always does when we cook it... am befuzzled! |
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06 Dec 06 - 07:56 AM (#1901441) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MBSLynne When I only had a little saltpetre left, I used what I had though it was lower than the usual quantity I put in. The meat was a more browney grey colour, like the colour of ordinary raost pork, not ham-pink. Do you salt your own ham then Ella? What do you use? Love Lynne |
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06 Dec 06 - 09:06 AM (#1901485) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: bobad The following is excerpted from: "Butchering, Processing and Preservation of Meat" by Frank G. Ashbrook. "Saltpeter is also an important ingredient of the curing mixture. It has two functions-fixing color and checking the growth of certain bacteria. Meat owes its red color to hemoglobin, an unstable pigment which, say the meat specialists of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, oxidizes to brown methemoglobin and combines with nitric oxide to form red nitrosohemoglobin. Nitric oxide is formed through the reduction of nitrate to nitrite. Certain bacteria which occur normally on fresh meat are responsible for bringing about this reaction. A combination of nitrite and nitrate in the ratio of 1 to 10 makes a superior product. Saltpeter (nitrate of Potassium) preserves and dries the meat but is used almost entirely because it effectively fixes the bright red color of the lean meat. Nitrate of soda (Chile saltpeter) is a little stronger, and 1.7 ounces of nitrate of soda will replace 2 ounces of saltpeter. The exact quantity of saltpeter of nitrate of soda to be used should be weighed and mixed thoroughly in the curing mixture. It is undesirable and quite unnecessary to use more of either saltpeter or nitrate of soda than the amount recommended. " |
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06 Dec 06 - 09:27 AM (#1901495) Subject: RE: BS: Need saltpeter for my Yuletide ham From: MMario saltpetre basically causes the pink colour - by a reaction with the hemoglobin and other protiens in the meat. That is it's basic function in curing and salting. |