I walked out of session

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I walked out of session

05 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM (#1900728)
Subject: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

Last night I walked out of a session because the sound on the television was turned up while we were playing.
I have played at this pub lots of times before but it has changed
ownership and the bar staff refused to co-operate and turn the sound off.
Most pubs/clubs will show respect for the musicians and switch the t.v. off but I don't mind If it stays on with the sound muted
As we play acoustic mostly it's very hard to compete with a
television blaring away in the corner.
I dont know what other's feel about this but I think it shows a lack
of respect so I got my gear together and left.
The rest of the lads said they would just play and sing louder to
compeat with the t.v
I left them to it and will never play there again.
[this was in Dublin Ireland]

05 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM (#1900736)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh

So the Celtic Tiger once more flexes its commercialised claws.
Your experience calls to mind one incident/observation/experience last year at the All-Ireland Fleadh Cheoil, in, Leitir Ceanainn, Donegal. One Youth Session was in a the C------ Hotel just out of ton, and was held the same evening as the final of the glittering "Rose of Tralee" TV event (a sort-of beauty contest with a wee bit of brains, in that the dames have to be able to dance, or sing, as well as wanting to work with children and/or World Peace). So, although there were Televisions in various places in the Hotel, nevertheless, in the central area where the children were playing, I witnessed the depressing sight of people turning their backs on real, live music in order to absorb Their Master's Voice &c.

05 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM (#1900743)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: frogprince

I would say good on you for walking out. In the setting of an American bar, though, "respect for the performer" would generally be such an oxymoron that the performer would probably know to refuse the gig if he didn't want to put up with almost anything. If the pubs there are going from credible listening venues to American sports bars, that would be a shame.

05 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM (#1900744)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

I know the feeling, but I doubt you'll be missed..... You got a choice... play against the TV, or not play at all...

I'm fortunate. Where I do most of my playing, the OWNER will come in and turn the TV off while I'm setting up. If someone asks nicely, I'll leave it on with the sound muted while I play. If someone tries to turn it up over me, I have more volume and can win that battle easily, until the owner/staff goes over and turns the TV off. The offending patron is most often told to leave as well.

A pub is first and foremost there to sell beer.... If your music attracts more beer attention than The Game, the owner will be on your side.... If it doesn't, then you're S.O.L.....

"people turning their backs on real, live music"
People cannot be faulted for picking one form of entertainment over another. One mans tune is another mans din. That you don't agree with their choice is immaterial.

05 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM (#1900763)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer

If it was a paying gig I would think twice about pulling out. Also, did the audience pay to come in? If it is no to both then good for you. About two years ago I was playing at a session and the audience was so loud that I stopped half way through a song and crossed my arms. When the last two people stopped talking I addressed the audience by say that the musicians that are here tonight are here for you to hear what they would like to say. They are all on their time and get no monetary compensation except the pleasure in playing for you. I've never went back and as I hear it is still just as noisy.

05 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM (#1900769)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

If they don't turn off the sound on the TV, the session is over. Or if it's something like a football match on the box, the session hasn't started yet.

If they won't turn the sound off it means they don't want you, so find another place to play. Playing over the sound just means no one's going to enjoy either the music or the programme, unless it's a another bar over in the distance. ("Bar" in England normally means "bar-room", though the American meaning where it means the premises as such is creeping in in wine-bars and such. But you wouldn't find sessions in many wine-bars.

I remember when they had that famous interview with Princess Diana, the one where she made her "Queen of Hearts" bid, we were -laying and there was a television screen on, all the way through, but with the sound turned down. I remember noticing it and thinking that this showed a proper sense of priorities by the publican.

05 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM (#1900770)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: treewind

Time to find another pub where your efforts will be more appreciated.
We've had similar at a local session. Pub under new ownership, tolerate us but aren't really bothered, we don't feel welcome and there's another one down the road where the landlord is really keen to get some folk music going because he likes it and it's very quiet midweek. So next month's session will be in the new place and we'll see how it goes.

Don't waste energy on the ones that treat you badly. Yes it is rude; that's the pub's problem but you don't have to make it yours. Plenty more fish in the sea.

Anahata

05 Dec 06 - 01:36 PM (#1900774)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

I recall that someone was recently marketing a device which would remotely turn off any TV. Illegal in the UK, of course, and I wouldn't for a minute suggest that anyone should use one.

05 Dec 06 - 01:39 PM (#1900776)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Ray

Yes the last post was from me! Please don't go to this link :- http://www.tvbgone.com/cfe_tvbg_main.php

05 Dec 06 - 01:49 PM (#1900781)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Shambles

During the World Cup - the pub where we hold our weekly session installed a huge TV.

On session night - it was left switched off - they just put a small TV in the next bar.

But walking out is the only option really open to session musicians, where the music is not appreciated.

05 Dec 06 - 01:56 PM (#1900785)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,dwditty

Yep, you sure fixed 'em. Took your ball and went home.

05 Dec 06 - 02:08 PM (#1900799)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Bernard

Good for you!!

For many years I have been going to a pub in Mobberley on the nearest Sunday to the Winter Solstice for a Morris gathering.

This involves around seven sides dancing outside on the car park for a couple of hours, followed by a session in the pub.

I'd guess that at least a hundred people who woulndn't normally be there on a Sunday are buying drinks, and up to half that number buying food, too.

Last year we were asked not to park on the pub car park, but about half a mile away up the side road... this year we are all going to a different pub.

For those who need the info, the Bird In Hand is not the place to be on December 17th - go to The Church Inn instead!!

05 Dec 06 - 02:11 PM (#1900806)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Blowzabella

I too think that it is a huge shame that pubs are becoming less friendly towards, or accommodating of, musicians playing in them. It sounds to me as if this pub has changed hands and the new people aren't interested - nothing you can do about it, except find somewhere else to play.

However, whilst I agree that it seems rude to have the TV on while you and the other musicians are playing (I presume it is just a casual session, where an unspecified number of people turn up and play), if you haven't been specifically asked to go in there, on a particular night etc in order to do that, the punters might well think of it as 'how rude of them to play, while we are trying to watch telly'. It's a sign of the times, I'm afriad.

On the othe rhand, I recall wandering around the streets of Wells (in Somerset) one night, with a friend and being delighted to catch to strains of a fiddle or two on the night air. We were on holiday for the weekend, so not familiar with the town. Finding the pub from which it was coming, we got drinks and proceeded to go and stand to listen to them. They glared at us - almost as if we had interrupted a private conversation or rehearsal, eventually making us feel so uncomfortable, that we went and sat outside, on the patio, and just left the door ajar (as we'd found it) so we could hear them.

One of them actually came and shut the door on us!

I'm not suggesting for one minute that your session members would have behaved in this manner, but sometimes, people don't do themselves any favours, in terms of garnering sympathy...

05 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM (#1900808)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"a huge shame that pubs are becoming less friendly towards, or accommodating of, musicians playing in them"

Even I've been doing it long enough to see the pendulum swing in both directions.... all things wax and wane in such manner.

Is it really such a surprise?

05 Dec 06 - 02:21 PM (#1900813)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

Of course if you are being treating disrespectfully you leave - if you have any pride at all. Even better if you and your friends trash the place first. - but check which bouncers are on duty BEFORE upending the table (and make sure all the instruments are in their cases).

05 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM (#1900817)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

A few weeks ago The Irish Times produced a supplement entitled 'Music In Ireland'. Guess what music never got a mention - you got it Irish Traditional Music.
In certain quarters, in spite of the incredible growth in popularity in the music and despite the fact that it brings in hundreds of thousands of visitors each year, it doesn't qualify for recognition.
Jim Carroll

05 Dec 06 - 02:43 PM (#1900830)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: gnu

I can see both sides of "to leave or not", but, I kinda lean toward what Clinton said. Years ago, I witnessed almost the same thing. Open mike night (and shortly thereafter, regular sessions) became a bunch of loud "kids" and the rest of us went on... because the management was smart enough to know that those "kids" were buying more pints than we. Ya can't stop progress... or regress.

05 Dec 06 - 02:43 PM (#1900831)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland

Good for you, however it's a pub and not a folk club, it is a business and the owner has to look after his business, but that doesn't mean to drown out the session players.

05 Dec 06 - 02:48 PM (#1900837)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Wayne

At our singaround, the previous landlord woudn't let us start until the Juke box had finished. We'd occasionally have to wait until getting on for 10pm before we could start playing, despite the fact that he'd asked us to start the session to boost a flagging night and also there'd only be a few non sessioneers in the pub.

Our current Mein Host Peter couldn't be any different. Not only is he unafraid to help keep order, he even joins in and sings. What a star!

05 Dec 06 - 02:48 PM (#1900838)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan

Shaneo,

Fair play to you. It doesn't surprise me that this would happen in a lot of Dublin pubs (I live here too.)

I play in a local GAA club every week. Every now and again we have a row when the TV Volume goes up, but mostly when I complain the telly goes down again, so the session continues. If not I will leave and not come back to play. It would be a pity because our session has been going for 10 years now. Thankfully it hasn't happened in a while.

05 Dec 06 - 02:49 PM (#1900839)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: wysiwyg

Feels good to opt out, doesn't it? I did that last week on another front. Sometimes it's good to play in a different sandbox. But consider this-- it might be better on a different night, after your pals play loud a couple of times. I hope you left them, at least, on good terms as you may want to go back sometime. But clearly if it isn't working for you, you don't have to be there.

Hope you find a good place to play!

~Susan

05 Dec 06 - 02:55 PM (#1900842)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Bee-dubya-ell

A similar thing happened a few years ago at a session where I was a regular. But instead of leaving, we just moved the session outside to the sidewalk. The customers who had come to hear music (instead of watch football) joined us outside. When the bartender realized he only had a handful of customers left inside while there were dozens outside, he got the point.

05 Dec 06 - 03:05 PM (#1900849)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: melodeonboy

I frequent a fortnightly folk session at the Good Intent in Rochester. This session used to be held at another pub several miles away, which I also frequented.

I was not there on the night in question, but I was told by a reliable source that at the previous pub one night the new landlord decided to turn the juke box up loud in the adjacent bar, which effectively drowned out the folk singers, and would not turn it down when requested to do so. The singers did the right thing and immediately found a new venue.

I have also been in pub sessions where piped music was left on after the musicians/singers had started performing and I had to ask for it to be switched off. In some cases, the barman/landlord appeared puzzled and then apologetic. I think some people get so used to/dependent on background "sound" that actually turning it off is not something that occurs to them easily.

As for tellies in pubs, don't get me going; I might say something I'll regret!

05 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM (#1900875)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

It was a non paying gig,We used to play this pub every Monday but left 6 months ago.
Another band took over the Monday night session , they are mostly trad musicians it has not been going too well for them so they kept asking us back.
I never liked the place but to help the other lads out myself and the
other three in our band went back to give the lads a dig out,
we do mostly folk/ballad/old time pop/.
The punters want us there and join in with the songs but as in every Dublin pub the t.v gets priority.
I think it's a Dublin thing ,it's like there are two Irelands,
one is Dublin and then you have the rest where you will be warmly
welcomed and the songs will be respected.

05 Dec 06 - 04:01 PM (#1900914)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

"I walked out of a session"

Most of the sessions I've been to in Dublin if you can walk out of them you have let the side down. It's more de rigeur to crawl out of them.

05 Dec 06 - 04:46 PM (#1900946)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

I wish I'd been there to walk out with you.
If a performer is so needy that he/she will put up with any disrespect then that's their business. It's pathetic, but still their business.

05 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM (#1900968)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

That's pretty rich coming from you Kendall

Or do you really think the sun shines out your arse?

05 Dec 06 - 05:17 PM (#1900974)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Stilly River Sage

Personally, I'd say investing in one of those "TVgo" tiny cards that mutes any television would be a good idea. Link.

SRS

05 Dec 06 - 06:42 PM (#1901048)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Indeed Melodeonboy! It was the Canopus, and it was I who cried "Oh Fuck" in mid song and packed my instruments and first left. Growler had repeatedly asked the manager to turn the offending jukebox in the public bar down (we didn't want it off, just down, so that we in the saloon bar we were in could hear ourselves and so the 20 or so who came to listen to us could hear us). After we had left the manager repeatedly asked Growler to bring the session back, but Growler wisely declined.

I hear the Canopus has now closed, but all the managers who ran it after Sarah the pretty German manageress died were morons. When we held Jacqui's wake there, during Sarah's reign, the pub-chain owners provided the food at their own expense, there were over 100 folkies rammed into that public bar, and the pub sold more beer that evening than it normally did in a week.

Shaneo, you did absolutely the right thing.

05 Dec 06 - 07:08 PM (#1901083)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer

After darts on a Wednesday night three of us take out the guitars at the Legion and begin to play and sing. The first think the barmaid does is turn the sound down on the T.V. Even if the Canadians are playing against the Toronto Maple Leafs. And there is absolutely no complaints from the audience who is watching their program. The Legion has always been a great place to play in my books,
Beer

05 Dec 06 - 07:24 PM (#1901097)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Clinton, should I have asked if it was ok to express my opinion? Explain what you mean by "That's rich coming from you Kendall"

My opinion is no more and certainly no less valid than yours sir.

05 Dec 06 - 07:42 PM (#1901125)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: MuddleC

There used to be a monthly session at a pub in Church Gresley (Derbyshire) , where the landlord used to switch both the juke-box, and one-armed bandit off during a session. If that wasn't enough, he also produced some free pitchers of beer!!!!

Sadly, the landlord went elsewhere, and the new one made such a racket juggling bottles , washing glasses and depositing empties in the plastic refuse bucket from 5ft away, that we finally decided 'too much background noise', and we didn't go back.

The replacement pub in Worthington (Leicestershire) provides sandwiches, and a small glass of schnapps for every performer.... although I think a few sneak in for a free schnapps!-the landord even joins in on his guitar!

-if you don't enjoy the session where it is ..move it

Another weekly venue in Leicestershire provides sandwiches for the darts team and dominoes team, but we don't even get a packet of pork scratchings!... at lesat the 'musak' gets switched off... but you wouldn't believe the noise that can be generated by the relatively simple act of domino shuffling in the other bar!!

et al a

05 Dec 06 - 07:59 PM (#1901144)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

But instead of leaving, we just moved the session outside to the sidewalk. The customers who had come to hear music (instead of watch football) joined us outside.

With the law the way it is in England the landlord would be liable to phone the police and inform them of a bunch of musicians breaking the law outside his pub by playing in a place not covered by a licence to play music. Strange but true.

And before too long there'd be a policeman saying "Move along lads, I donm't want any trouble..."

05 Dec 06 - 08:06 PM (#1901152)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL

"My opinion is no more and certainly no less valid than yours sir. "
Captain Morse,
I strongly disagree. Your accomplishments and reputation make your opinions worth reading and far more valid than the negative ramblings and "sound and fury" drivel coming from a troll that (not who)daily screams "Look at me!"
Slightly prejudiced.
Mary SINS

05 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM (#1901156)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL

There is a waitress at the Press Room who ups the volume on her personal radio whenever a Saturday session starts. A pain in the butt but not the same as management screwing around with paying customers.

05 Dec 06 - 08:28 PM (#1901169)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

There was a session in the City in a 'trendy café' in the 'Entertainment centre - live theatre, small theatrette, etc place - place was empty that night of the week but for the 'folkies' - change of management - and we were asked to leave cause the new owner had been requested to replace us on Wed Night with a sorta 'Lesbian Death Thrash Poetry' (if you have NEVER heard of this sorta stuff, be extremely GRATEFUL!) group - a few weeks later we were asked to come back, but were too happy with the new venue - place changed hands again....

You just can't tell some people, they just have to learn thru bitter personal experience...

05 Dec 06 - 08:42 PM (#1901180)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

"You just can't tell some people, they just have to learn thru bitter personal experience..."

Learn? What do you think they'll learn? Probably that they should have made Wednesday nights "Wet T-shirt Night" in the first place ...

05 Dec 06 - 08:51 PM (#1901190)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

Shaneo wrote:
"The punters want us there and join in with the songs but as in every Dublin pub the t.v gets priority.
I think it's a Dublin thing ,it's like there are two Irelands,
one is Dublin and then you have the rest where you will be warmly
welcomed and the songs will be respected."

That is total nonsense! I've played in many sessions in Dublin pubs over the past few years and the T.V. (if there was one there) was always off while the musicians played. Hundreds of visitors have passed through these sessions and really enjoyed them, while the locals come back week after week. I sympathise with your particular experience in that pub, but don't apply this to every pub in Dublin!

05 Dec 06 - 09:07 PM (#1901203)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

memyself...

'they should have made Wednesday nights "Wet T-shirt Night" in the first place ... '

Well, since it's not 'about the music' at all, but 'all about the money' I think you are very wise...

Where's this place, bugger the Accordion...

05 Dec 06 - 09:19 PM (#1901214)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

Ah ... there is nothing like the luxury, friendship, the sharing of a kitchen session.

The hell with bars.

biLL

05 Dec 06 - 09:21 PM (#1901217)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

If it's wisdom, it's hard-won wisdom (I'm a slow-learner). This is where the term "bitter personal experience" applies ...

05 Dec 06 - 10:00 PM (#1901236)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

I've often asked myself why we do it. Why do we expose ourselves to rudeness and utter disrespect? Is it for the money? or is it a need to share what we have with others? Seems to me if it's for the money we don't need a hell of a lot to live on! I never made enough to live on but it was enough to make it worthwhile doing. I'm sure I could have made a lot more if I wasn't so lazy and really didn't need to do it. Maybe that's why I didn't play in joints for people who think "Tie a yellow ribbon" is a folk song.

Nope, not worth it. I'd much rather be part of a song circle.

05 Dec 06 - 10:11 PM (#1901243)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Rowan

Many years ago the bush band I played in was asked to do an afternoon gig at a pub in The Rocks, Sydney. We were surprised because this pub had a reputation of being "Rock Music Only" and we weren't even at the rock-folk end of the spectrum. Apparently the pub had had a bush band (much more rock than folk) the month before and thought we'd continue in the same line.

During the afternoon we turned the foldback speakers off as the sound levels from the house speakers were more than adequate. Later, the bar staff turned the house speakers right up and we couldn't hear ourselves, so we asked one of the staff to turn them down to levels we regarded as adequate; he did so. 20 minutes later the speakers were turned up full again. When we sked the bar manager to turn them down he refused, saying that the more volume they pumped out, the harder it was for the customers to have any conversation without shouting. The more they shouted, the hoarser they got. the hoarser they got the more they had to drink. He wanted to sell beer so he wanted the music loud!

It wasn't a session, by any means, but I think we were the last bush band to play there for quite a while.

In the town where I now live we used to have a great session on Sunday afternoons; the bar staff showed us which buttons muted (to "Off") the speakers in our area and were quite happy to let us get on with it. During renovation of that area we were moved out to another, which was acoustically much brighter and with more background noise. We coped until we found a guitarist setting up a sound system about 3 metres from us and then testing it over the top of our playing. Apparently the landlord had booked him and neglected to tell us. We walked!

The guitarist played (and sang) very undistinguished cuntry music in a very undistinguished manor and it came as no surprise that he lasted only a month or so, after which the owner of the pub was declared bankrupt and the whole shebang was closed.

Sorry about the spelling.

Cheers, Rowan

05 Dec 06 - 10:20 PM (#1901249)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Stilly River Sage

This is so far a discussion of noise (or not): the other thing, in addition to noisy competition, is cigarette smoke. I went to a little Fort Worth establishment a couple of years back to hear a visiting Mudcatter sing, and there was one woman in the front of the table area who managed to foul the air for everyone sitting in the room. She was oblivious to the stink, and she smoked enough that the air didn't have a chance to clear much before the next one was in her mouth. Despite my pleasure at the music I could hardly wait to get out of the place.

SRS

05 Dec 06 - 10:51 PM (#1901265)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

That's pretty rich coming from you Kendall

Or do you really think the sun shines out your arse?

Clinton

When you have a highly respected folk artist like Utah Phillips citing you as the best folk singer that he is aware of then you might just be in a position to pass judgement on others.

When you can put your CDs and tapes on the Mudcat auction and command high prices and praise for the works from the winning bidders your opinions might just be respected.

As those who know him are aware Kendall does not brag about his achievements and is humble about his abilities, past and present. He is still surprised when fans come up to him in public and want to talk to him, as still happens.

Your remark was uncalled for and I think Kendall deserves an apology from you.

To everyone else - sorry for the thread creep.

05 Dec 06 - 10:51 PM (#1901266)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: HuwG

Not quite a session; but some years ago, while roadying, the girl I was supporting did a gig in the Mason's Arms, Hadfield (the one featuring "Live Indoor Rugby" in the League of Gentlemen.

As I set up on the stage, the projection screen behind it was showing "Casablanca". (They had been showing football earlier in the day, and not turned the TV system off.)

As the time came to start the gig, "Casablanca" was still on. I asked the bar staff to turn it off. They could manually turn down the sound, but couldn't find the remote control to turn it off. (Pulling out the plug would have lost all their carefully entered tunings and settings.)

So, the plucky girl did her first two songs while behind her Ingrid Bergman silently asked the pianist to "Play it again for me, Sam." The landlord then found the remote, turned off the film and instead unearthed that awful backdrop of glittery strips which seems to be de rigeur.

Personally, I would have preferred to keep Bogart and Claude Rains on, albeit silently.

06 Dec 06 - 01:23 AM (#1901303)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Boab

I played in pubs [usually solo] for many years. I tried to avoid becoming an "institution" in any given venue, and took a relaxed attitude to what I saw to be the normal situation in any pub---folks out for a drink and a natter mainly. My contribution sometimes qualified as background "noise", but more often, and as the night went on, those who enjoyed my music showed their appreciation by congregating around and joining in the spirit by singing along, or adding requests. The normal noise [hubbub?] of a weekend pub went on unhindered, and I found no offence or annoyance in this. The one thing that DID annoy me--and usually resulted in my instrument being packed away---was some over officious "I'll be emcee" type hollering at the company in general "Order for the singer" or some other loud and fatuous proclamation. Folks in a pub are there for their own particular kind of pleasure---a blather, a goodnatured argy-bargy,or just a good gargle; and there are always some who delight in a sing-song, or in whatever talents a casual entertainer can produce. Good enough for me.

06 Dec 06 - 05:17 AM (#1901373)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

Clinton,

I know you get your jollies out of it, but please stop being a thread creep!

06 Dec 06 - 06:33 AM (#1901410)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: gnu

I actually kinda agreed with Clinton's first post. Then, well....

Odd that my post ended with, "Ya can't stop progress... or regress." Hehehe.

By the way, Clint, if you ever get your own TV show, or want to publish any books, Kendall might give you some pointers. Not that you would take them.

06 Dec 06 - 11:00 AM (#1901544)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Maryrrf

To the guy who walked out of the session, my first thought was "Good for you"! You walked away with dignity. It really is a shame that people can't tear themselves away from television every once and a while to enjoy something different. But doubtless there will be other venues who do appreciate a good session, and what it adds to the atmosphere of the establishment. No use casting your pearls before swine.

I would also like to say that I think Clinton crossed the line and I am really sick and tired of his anti-social behavior. I can only assume that he feels compelled to put other down because of his own frustration and feelings of inadequacy. He owes Kendall an apology, but I doubt he'll have enough class to offer one.

06 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM (#1901570)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

Good post Kendall .... I agree with all ya said.

biLL

06 Dec 06 - 12:25 PM (#1901594)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

" for people who think "Tie a yellow ribbon" is a folk song"
What an arrogant SOB....

"I think Clinton crossed the line"
Who cares what you think?

06 Dec 06 - 12:48 PM (#1901618)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: dermod in salisbury

Pubs started to become an overrated experience when the piano moved out, the one-armed bandit moved in, and the price of a drink moved up through the roof. I rarely go in one unless I need to get out of the rain. However, the domestic front parlour and a jovial set of bring-your-own-bottle-type friends and musicians could be due for a major comeback. According to the press, the average time people spend watching television has been in decline for some time. It's just that the brewing industry has not noticed that yet.

06 Dec 06 - 12:50 PM (#1901621)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Mick

Kendall needs no defense. He has sung on national TV (the Today Show), and has a portfolio that most here would die for. When Kendall sings, he is never just wallpaper in a bar as the critic is. Many of the legends in our genre call him friend, and enjoy performing with him. While others were whiling away their time and talent singing in bars for drunks, he has recorded for a venerable label, been hailed as a treasure by the State he calls home, and carving a reputation as a pearl of great worth. He was honored by his home state as Folksinger of the Year three times. There are those that need to learn from his example. While he has become someone that is universally loved and admired, others (one other specifically) are squandering their talents and coming to be known as arrogant, self centered assholes that cover their insecurities, and their anger at the hole they are in, by acting like horses asses. Pete Seeger has spoken of and praised Cap'n Morse. I would say that trumps the old drunk laying in the corner of the bar gig.

Mick, disgusted and tired of this prat's attitude.

06 Dec 06 - 12:58 PM (#1901629)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

Your opinion ain't worth squat.. no more than mine, or Kendalls or anybodys....

If you think it is, you must be taking arrogance lessons from Mr National TV.... Critizising people for liking a song??? Ya... very professional....

And once again Mick.. You show how ill your perception is.... -I- have NO insecurities.... and THAT makes you so GREEN I can see it from here. So why don't you get down off that high horse and go back to kneeling under it where you at least do some good.

You're not disgusted or tired... You're afraid. It's as plain as the face on your head

06 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM (#1901633)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

Oh, boy! They've got Clinton going! This is gonna be fun!

06 Dec 06 - 01:09 PM (#1901634)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Mick

Often, when I am meeting or performing with a noted performer for the first time, the conversation will turn to friends we have in common. Among others, I always mention Kendall, and often as not that is one that we have conversation about.

If I would were to list words used to describe Kendall Morse, it would look like this:

Clinton, how would they describe you?

06 Dec 06 - 01:20 PM (#1901637)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Greg B

Quoth Clinton:
> Or do you really think the sun shines out your arse?

In fact it does. Comes in handy when reading the lead
sheets in the back rows in a darkened pub. Also handy
for reading in the loo.

06 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM (#1901638)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

I wouldn't CARE

I don't base my sense of self on what others think of me, or of anything

06 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM (#1901657)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: closet-folkie

I'd just like to suggest that "Lesbian Death Thrash Poetry" might be the best potential band name I've heard in some time.
Clinton---calm down lad. Have yourself a nice Maudite; it works wonders. Cheers then, Steve R.

06 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM (#1901658)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Midchuck

Fact is, we've camped near Kendall and Jacqui, at Old Songs, several years. If we're at their campsite after dark, I always ask Kendall to drop his drawers and bend over, and we can see our way back to our own camp. Saves having to bring along a flashlight.

Peter.

06 Dec 06 - 01:49 PM (#1901664)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Greg B

Then there's the time he saved the QE2 from wrecking off the
coast of Newfoundland after the lighthouse ran out of oil.

06 Dec 06 - 01:58 PM (#1901678)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

We once used his anal illuminations to catch some rare moths.
Legend has it that an ancestor of his led the three wise men to Bethlehem.

06 Dec 06 - 02:00 PM (#1901679)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

Maybe now Martin Gibson is no longer among us CH feels the position is vacant.

06 Dec 06 - 02:22 PM (#1901694)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Dave the Gnome

There is a common term for people who never consider the opinions of others. Selfish. Very common amongst the very old and very young. Most people in between have some concept of what others think.

There are a few exceptions of course and more often than not they are the small percentage who cause the most trouble and upset. A good compromise is just to ignore them.

DtG

06 Dec 06 - 02:22 PM (#1901695)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

There's only one position CH needs to find vacant (and maybe well illuminated.

06 Dec 06 - 02:25 PM (#1901696)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: John MacKenzie

If you don't care about what people think of you, you arrogant asshole, why did you start your own thread last year boasting about how you'd managed to get a part in a play? Then you continued to regale the Mudcat about your prowess, and your progress.
All I can say is, they must have been pretty hard up if they cast you Clint, cos the only part you can play is the clown.
Kendall has visited with me, and he is welcome anytime, you could knock on my door till the end of time, you still wouldn't be welcome. I prefer visitors with good manners!
Giok

06 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM (#1901700)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SharonA

...as yet another thread drifts out to sea...

*sigh* I think a parallel can be drawn between trying to play a session in a pub with a TV blaring and creating a disturbance, and trying to read a Mudcat thread on a particular subject with Mudcatters trading insults and disturbing the discussion.

Not that my temper hasn't flared once in a while, but I've learned from Mudcat-thread experience that putting down the mouse and stepping away from the keyboard keeps me on a more even keel. I don't visit and converse here at Mudcat as much as I used to, or as much as I'd like to; but just as Shaneo demonstrated in the first post of this thread, when the spirit of cooperation and respect is lacking (in pub or thread), it's time to leave (the pub or thread).

So maybe I'll see y'all in another thread...

Sharon

06 Dec 06 - 02:35 PM (#1901707)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Wesley S

First someone claims that they don't care about anyone's opinion. But you know for a fact that they use their spare time getting on stage to sing or act for an audience. With the hopes of getting applause. That doesn't add up.

I suspect what this person really enjoys is being able to turn the topic of any thread into "it's all about me". And we buy into it when we respond. He's a troll pure and simple – and should be treated like one. Ignore him – and feel sorry for his wife.

06 Dec 06 - 02:39 PM (#1901710)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: bfdk

Please add me to the list of Capt'n Kendall Morse fans. I've always liked blokes with a rowdy sense of humour and sufficient self-confidence not to take themselves too seriously :-) As for the Capt'n's other achievements, well, they speak for themselves, don't they?

Best wishes,

Bente

06 Dec 06 - 02:45 PM (#1901720)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"..as yet another thread drifts out to sea..."
Because people gotta whine and suck, when they got nothing else...

"trying to play a session in a pub with a TV blaring"
It's a question of what brings in more $ for the pub, unfortunately.... If the music don't sell it, then the music won't last long, and that's a plain and simple fact, unless you have a bar owner who so loves the music that he's willing to run his place at a debt.... Those places tend not to last long.

To people who 'look down' at bar/pub gigs like their skite don't stink, I flip a great big Johnny Cash style bird! Your arrogance is exactly what I'd expect from people so full of themselves (which is to say, 'bullshit')

06 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM (#1901728)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

"I wouldn't CARE

I don't base my sense of self on what others think of me, or of anything"

Doesn't this belong in the "Jimmy Crack Corn" thread?

06 Dec 06 - 03:10 PM (#1901739)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Songster Bob

I remember an incident in the Washington, DC area from some number of years ago. A local bar had a bluegrass band, one just starting out (but with well-known members from earlier bands). Paid 'em to be there and everything.

The barman turns the TV on, loud, during their set, and won't turn it down (there may have been a football game on, I don't recall). So the band goes looking for another place to play, and starts playing at another bar, one not known for anything special, musically, and ends up "making" the reputation of that bar.

The places in question were the Rabbit's Foot (losers) and the Red Fox Inn (winners, and bluegrass / old-time music mecca for years afterwards). The band called themselves the "Seldom Scene."

So sometimes there is justice in the world, you know?

And now you know ... the rest of the story.

Songbob

06 Dec 06 - 03:18 PM (#1901751)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jeffp

I loved the old Red Fox Inn, and the Seldom Scene as well. I was very sorry when the Red Fox closed down.

06 Dec 06 - 03:19 PM (#1901753)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Dave the Gnome

Of course there is another expression to describe people who only wish to please themselves but it escapes me at the moment...

06 Dec 06 - 03:19 PM (#1901754)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"So sometimes there is justice in the world, you know?"

Great story, that!

06 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM (#1901763)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,dwditty

hmmmm, I always figured the paying customers get to decide. If I am there to perform, it is most likely I am considered to be an employee as opposed to a pedestal sitter - making judegements about people based on their reaction to me. If they want to watch tv, it is their choice. I may be disappointed. I may leave. But I certainly would not feel disrespected because they did not want to list to my particular way of moving air molecules.

I also wouldn't get beligerent if someone left in a huff when faced with such a situation.

I think it is discussions such as this that gives us folk musicians our reputation.

dw

06 Dec 06 - 03:39 PM (#1901774)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

You may very well be right on at least a few levels DW

06 Dec 06 - 03:40 PM (#1901777)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Folkiedave

The fact is that there are some pub landlords that cannot see the wood for the trees.

I was at the start of a festival last weekend. The pub was asked to get some decent beer in, in quantity and some extra staff. No matter how much you ask and warn people........

We were taking bets at what time they would run out of decent beer. 8.20 pm won. So they had the best part of three hours without any decent beer. Like many others I spent 50 per cent of what I would have done had there been any decent beer.

06 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM (#1901792)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan

This thread started about a musician playing in an (unpaid) session on a voluntary basis. There were no paying punters involved.

By refusing to turn down the volume on the TV set the publican (bar owner/ Manager) made a choice that he did not care whether the mucsicians could be heard or not. Many publicans will make that choice, and there may be sound (no pun intended) commercial reasons for them to do so. But having mader that choice he/she should not expect musicians to come and entertain the customers for free in that particular pub.

Although a lot of pubs are closing down in Dublin, there are still thankfully some places where they are delighted to have musicians come and play. It makes sense for musicians to go and play in these places and not put up with disrespect from people who don't appreciate them.

Someone mentioned smoky pubs earlier. At least that's one problem we did away with in Ireland a couple of years back.

06 Dec 06 - 04:34 PM (#1901832)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

"When we sked the bar manager to turn them down he refused, saying that the more volume they pumped out, the harder it was for the customers to have any conversation without shouting. The more they shouted, the hoarser they got. The hoarser they got the more they had to drink. He wanted to sell beer so he wanted the music loud!"

Well, you have to admit that makes commercial sense. But turning up the volume of the band isn't quite the same thing as turning up the volume of the telly to drown out the band.

The answer is, I suppose, people who love folk music just have to bite the bullet and drink more at sessions. And buy the musicians more drinks. (And pay for their taxis home.) It's a hard life folk music...
.............................

I wasn't clear if that bad-tempered lad was just suggesting that people shouldn't complain if a pub thinks it can make more money without folk music, which is sensible advice, or suggesting that it's a good idea to keep on playing to drown out the TV, which seems to me pretty very silly advice.

06 Dec 06 - 04:39 PM (#1901837)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"the more they had to drink"

The same reason for the free popcorn, or peanuts....

06 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM (#1901985)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

closet-folkie

The sad thing is that they were poets, not musos... well, at least they thought they were, I mean...

06 Dec 06 - 08:07 PM (#1902016)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Midchuck

I also wouldn't get beligerent if someone left in a huff when faced with such a situation.

I knew Britain had a lot of obscure brands of cars, but that's a new one on me!

Peter.

06 Dec 06 - 10:26 PM (#1902099)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

Hell, sometimes I'm watching the TV while I'm playing and singing. Especially if it's a song I've some a hundred times before.

07 Dec 06 - 02:44 AM (#1902190)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

Hear FN hear, Bro!!!

been there... done that... got the t-shirt... wore it till it went thread-bare... washed my car with it, till a bird stole it to make her nest....

The arrogant FKS who think that bar/pub gigs are something to look down on won't get it, because they don't have the stones to do the job.

*middle finger to them*

Power to them, playing their little sissy gigs to other tired old hippes who can't fill a room or are so old they've forgot what a good time is..... You enjoy that gig... playing in your sandals and tie-dye.... no... really....

We'll be over here having FUN....

07 Dec 06 - 04:50 AM (#1902232)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Totally agree with you Clinton. Give me a gig with real people everytime. If you can get through to your type of audience you're having more success than those other closeted, must only share it with the nice people, never seen the real world fools.

07 Dec 06 - 08:48 AM (#1902373)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

Oh, goody - Clinton's back in form! I was getting concerned; he almost sounded contrite for a few posts there. Okay, he almost sounded civil.

Believe me, people, he wouldn't last five minutes running off his mouth like that in any of the tougher bars in Windsor.

07 Dec 06 - 09:08 AM (#1902384)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Skipper Jack

In the late 70's
Due to having to move from previous premises I moved my folk club to a hotel where we were given the use of the lounge bar. We were given the privilege of being allowed to charge at the door on guest nights. This was despite the pub's regulars who used the lounge frequently. The landlord even paid for them to come in when we had guests.

Such consideration is lost these days. When the new licensees took over, the pub was transformed into open plan. The T.V and jukebox took over.

07 Dec 06 - 10:16 AM (#1902428)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

"And they all stare up at a TV screen
Overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens"

I arrived at one pub where we had regular sessions to find the TV on - but it was during the World Cup, so we didn't mind. As soon as the match was over, the TV was switched off and we carried on as normal.

But if I found the TV (or other extraneous noise) was regularly interfering with the session, I'd probably agree that it's time to move on and find another venue.

07 Dec 06 - 10:40 AM (#1902444)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,dwditty

Well said Scrump. In other words, you would take the hint, as would I.

07 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM (#1902693)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: melodeonboy

"Hell, sometimes I'm watching the TV while I'm playing and singing. Especially if it's a song I've some a hundred times before."

Well, Cluin, what sort of prats come to your gigs to watch you doing that? I certainly wouldn't, and I suspect that most folk enthusiasts in the U.K. wouldn't either (I suspect that you're from the other side of the pond). Or are you just wasting people's time by taking the piss?

07 Dec 06 - 04:10 PM (#1902710)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Yeah CH - but you won't be making music (but how did I know that)?

07 Dec 06 - 04:22 PM (#1902723)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

*Here's another bird, flipped for Richard*

I can make music and have fun at the same time.

Can you say the same?

Seems to me that there are an awful lot of rectal-cranial inversions who seem to think the two are mutually exclusive and that their way is the only way to do things....

Fortunately they are wrong... It is a big wide world full of all kinds of different ways to do all kinds of different things.

"most folk enthusiasts in the U.K."
Speaking of... umm... how was it put above? Oh ya... "closeted, never seen the real world fools."

07 Dec 06 - 05:01 PM (#1902764)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gizmo

I'm fairly new to mudcat, and am saddened by CH comments.

Is Ch always like this or is it a form of keyboard tourettes?

Or is this person a joke?

IMO I think given the circumstances, Shaneo did the right thing.
It seems to be a common thing around here, (speaking mainly as a new folkie and morris dancer), that whenever we dance out on a tour, we tend to do the pubs a big favour, it getting more custom. For those publicans who don't want to know, have less custom on the day than if they accepted our little crowd.

07 Dec 06 - 05:06 PM (#1902772)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: melodeonboy

"I can make music and have fun at the same time."

What's that supposed to mean, CH? Making music IS having fun, ain't it? If it ain't, why do it? Or don't you do it?

By the way, in case nobody's ever told you, arrogance is not generally considered to be a virtue.

07 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM (#1902773)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"am saddened by CH comments"

Awwww.... that's really sad.... Here... wanna use my hankee??? Maybe while you're holidng back the tears someone will call whine-one-one and have them send you a whaaaaaambulance....

"Is Ch always like this"
Yes... I always stand up against blinkered idiots...

" I think given the circumstances, Shaneo did the right thing"
I agree... But I doubt it accomplished anything....

07 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM (#1902783)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Dave the Gnome

Well spotted, Gizmo. I think it is actualy In-tour(n)ette syndrome. I've just remembered what that term I was looking for. Doesn't having fun while not caring what anyone else thinks make a mess on your guitar Clinton?

:D (tG)

07 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM (#1902786)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Dave the Gnome

100!

07 Dec 06 - 05:36 PM (#1902804)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gizmo

Using your own qoute CH - she stood up to those blinkered idiots.

BTW CH I meant saddened as in disappointed, not reduced to tears. It takes a hell of alot more than a petty minded individual like you to bring tears down my cheeks.

Nice offer of hankies, pity they weren't used as a surrender for futile attempts at standing up for yourself, which have backfired making you sound more like a twerp than you possibly have intended.

I think interlaced with your venom, there are the odd fragments of wisdom, but your presentation of words defies your ability to pronounce yourself as an intelligent counter point for discussion.
Unfortunately on many occasions in this post you have eaten the very proclamations you have spewed, furthermore, you claim you don't care what people think, then you write that you want to stand up against people who to me have very genuine things to say.

Perhaps you have misunderstood mudcat, to say mudthrowing cat? A debate is one thing, but an endless stream of insults is just immature.

07 Dec 06 - 05:45 PM (#1902814)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Go use those hankies for your morris dancing,Gizmo and stick your opinions where the sun don't shine. Morris dancing pussy!

07 Dec 06 - 06:02 PM (#1902829)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Dave the Gnome

Our last pussy was called Gizmo! He didn't dance Morris though. Used to sneeze a lot. Why would anyone want to stick their opinions in our cellar btw? That's the only place I can think of where the sun don't shine.

DtG

07 Dec 06 - 06:21 PM (#1902845)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

... politicans's brains?

07 Dec 06 - 06:47 PM (#1902874)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Peace

"Morris dancing pussy!"

A strange image there.

07 Dec 06 - 06:53 PM (#1902883)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

"Well, Cluin, what sort of prats come to your gigs to watch you doing that?"

I call them the audience, melodeonboy. I don't look down on them (or people from other sides of anything either). They are just like me. They go out to have a good time. Their buying the drinks and being happy and tipping both me and the bar staff keeps the place in business. My keeping them buying the drinks keeps me in a gig. I'm not delivering a lesson in culture; I'm entertaining. If I can't engage them at least as much as the boob tube, with help of my microphone and amplified instruments, I have no business being up there. I don't blame my shortcomings on intrusive modern life, insensitive bar managers or undesireable audience members.

And often what happens on the TV is part of the fun. Part of engaging the audience, sharing fun with them. We're there to keep the party going, not make them shut up and tow the line and listen quietly. They have enough of that in their everyday lives.

07 Dec 06 - 06:54 PM (#1902884)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

I think he's referring to the Morris car .. they were real clunkers (like clogging) weren't they.

.. i'm gone.

biLL

07 Dec 06 - 07:16 PM (#1902909)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gizmo

Guest,

How about we have a nice intelligent debate, minus the insults.

Perhaps you could PM with your opinions, and likewise I will take on board on what constructive things you may say. Otherwise, I will just assume that this is just attention grabbing nonsense, and not worth any of my time to reply to you in future.

Rest assured, it is not that I can't, I just won't.

08 Dec 06 - 01:18 AM (#1903150)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"is just immature"

That's answering like with like....

" How about we have a nice intelligent debate"
Show any sign of it, and sure.... Or are you just here to suck and moan that someone used some 'language', like a sobbing pussy-man?

"I have no business being up there."
You have lots of business being up there... People who whine and suck and piss and moan that the whole world doesn't stop and sniff everytime they fart are the ones who have no business being in front of a crowd...

If you can entertain in a bar, you can entertain anywhere.

08 Dec 06 - 05:15 AM (#1903256)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Prick.

08 Dec 06 - 05:23 AM (#1903261)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: manitas_at_work

This discussion was supposed to be about sessions not gigs. A gig is for entertaining others (hopefully), a session is for sharing with other musicians. In the latter you hope that other customers (the session participants are also customers) enjoy the music and come back to listen but that's not necessary.

08 Dec 06 - 05:26 AM (#1903265)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland

I would even talk to an arsehole like that.

08 Dec 06 - 05:39 AM (#1903277)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,King Solomon

If he was any good one might see some ground for his uncouth conceit.

08 Dec 06 - 06:56 AM (#1903316)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

I have heard that the t.v will be turned off in the future for the sessions on mondays.We had only sang three songs before I left,
still I wont be back.mabey I'm too stubborn ?
This was the set list for the night.

The Ferryman
This Land Is Your Land[Irish version]
The Nightingale
Uncle Nobby's Steamboat
Trad.Tunes
Home Boys Home
[invite a singer from the bar to sing]
Joe Hill
Leaving Nancy
The Streets Of London
Monto
A Pair Of Brown Eyes
Irish Soldier Laddie
More trad tunes
James Larkin
Black Is The Colour
[invite more singers from bar]
Sam Hall
Whiskey On A Sunday
A Soldier's Song

Thanks for the comments ,

08 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM (#1903355)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

Good God!

Somebody actually PLANNED the songs IN ADVANCE?!

Bloody Hell! What an interesting concept!

08 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM (#1903356)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Ernest

A session with a pre-fabricated set list sounds a bit strange to me. I know that every session has it`s "standards", but a set list sounds more like a gig or a rehearsal. I`ve seen sessions where a group of musicians playing together as a band elsewhere dominated a session but this was something only the other musicians (or close followers) noticed.

Are you doing those songs regularly so that people might have thought there were less repetitions on tv?*

Best
Ernest

*= highly improbable, I know...

08 Dec 06 - 07:48 AM (#1903358)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

Wait a minute - there's hope yet...

Please don't tell me that the group of musos REHEARSED as a group beforehand?!!!

08 Dec 06 - 07:50 AM (#1903359)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Hmm. Not all that purist but surely eclectic enough to provide something for most people - or maybe too bland to rivet?

08 Dec 06 - 09:17 AM (#1903411)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

If you can entertain in a bar, you can entertain anywhere.

Not true. What is might be considered entertaining in a bar in Windsor, Ontario would not be considered 'entertaining' in many other locations around the world.

08 Dec 06 - 10:54 AM (#1903470)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

"What do you call an act like that?"

"The ARISTOCRATS!"

08 Dec 06 - 10:56 AM (#1903473)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

Don't forget the Drew Carry finger-snap on the punch-line, mate!

It makes or breaks the joke

08 Dec 06 - 11:09 AM (#1903480)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

"I walked out of session"

Minced out more like.

08 Dec 06 - 01:05 PM (#1903589)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

When there is drink involved sometimes it is good to have a list of songs to know where you are going.
With five in a band there is usually a bit of debate as to what song/tune is next. This can waste a lot of time.
We have about 200 songs/tunes and it can be good to have a few written down in front of yourself just as a reminder, sometimes the mind goes blank,
Seldom would we stick to the set list.

08 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM (#1903614)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Try Tone Deaf Leopard's "Born to Drink Mild" to get their attention...

08 Dec 06 - 01:41 PM (#1903624)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

If you enjoy the session, and have nothing better to do anyway on Monday nights, go back. No use cutting off your nose to spite your face--life's too short to keep grudges. I'm sure your mates will be glad to see you.

I too jot down a few songs that I want to do before the session--my memory fades in proportion to the amount of Guinness drunk!

08 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM (#1903675)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"life's too short to keep grudges"

I'm reminded of the song that says

"Life is too short to worry
Life is too long to wait"

The rest are here

08 Dec 06 - 02:16 PM (#1903680)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

Life's too short to not have regrets.

08 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM (#1903682)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Nice one Clinton. That's it in a nutshell.

08 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM (#1903694)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

Thanks Clinton , great sentiments in that song , so maybe a leopard can change it's spots after all.
Sometimes you can get so worked up on the little things that you fail to see the big picture.

08 Dec 06 - 03:21 PM (#1903745)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

I rarely even consider trying to see the "Big Picture"... the whole damn thing is too damn big and too damn uncontrolled to worry much about...

Try to keep your strings pretty much in tune
Try to keep your feet warm and dry
If ya gotta drive, don't drink too much
If ya gotta drive, find all the best places to drive fast!

It's just life... it's not rocket surgery.

08 Dec 06 - 03:50 PM (#1903778)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Jack Campin

That set list wasn't something I'd go out of my way to listen to or join in on if I were over that way - apart from the "trad tunes", there was hardly anything of Irish origin in it. If I want to hear English, Scottish and American stuff I've heard a zillion times before, I can do that over here.

Is there anywhere in Dublin where you can hear songs like those in "Sam Henry's Songs of the People", or traditional songs in Irish?

(I'd much rather listen to that set than a TV any day, though).

08 Dec 06 - 04:18 PM (#1903808)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Funny, Jack. Over here it's Irish, Scottish and American stuff I've heard a zillion times and didn't want to hear in the first place, and where is the English stuff I want? You must have it there in Ireland. Can we swap?

08 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM (#1903935)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Well, surprise, surprise. Clinton is wrong again. No where did I criticize anyone for liking a song. Nowhere did I criticize anyone for anything. Nowhere did I resort to name calling, but believe me with the years I spent at sea I damn well could.

08 Dec 06 - 06:26 PM (#1903942)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"05 Dec 06 - 04:46 PM"
"If a performer is so needy..."
"It's pathetic..."

But yet you maintain you didn't critizise anyone for anything??? Or resort to name calling?!?!?

I suppose if I ever got my head that far up my backside I'd forget what I posted too....

You got a cupboard full of milk jugs too, Kendall? Maybe you're keeping your frying pan in the sweater drawer?

08 Dec 06 - 06:43 PM (#1903957)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

Never walk out of a session
It wont teach no one a lesshen
depressed and pisshed...?
Go on! slash your wrissht!
that's what I call discretion.

08 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM (#1903978)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

GUEST,Jack Campin: No one is asking you to listen or join in Shaneo's session. I play with similar sets, for two reasons: the musicians are happy playing them and the punters are happy listening or joining in. Usually singers from the floor contribute their own favourites, or the musicians might decide to go off in a different direction, and sing only Dublin songs, or only love songs or rebel songs or whatever. Every week in our sessions different musicians drop by and join in--last week Mary Black was one. With the right combination and atmosphere you can have great crack with simple songs--the singalongs are best. And most musicians in a Dublin session can call on a wide range of material when needed (as an aside, our little group can sing in Irish, Spanish, Italian, Napulitano, German and Yiddish, and play corresponding tunes). But we fill the pubs we play in every week with the songs people know.

The folk tradition is kept alive, the musicians have a chance to meet up and play and improve their skills (and get paid or free drink), the punter has a good time and only has to pay for his drink--what's wrong with that?

Sam Henry collected his songs eighty years ago in rural areas in the North East corner of the country, so there won't be many Dubliners familiar with this material, but there are also sessions that concentrate on traditional Irish and Irish-language material, and of course there are gigs, which you have to pay into, with the likes of Patrick Street, Altan, Dervish, etc.

Slainte, Gulliver

08 Dec 06 - 07:18 PM (#1903986)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Never walk when punters talk
As you try to sing your song.
Have some sense, don't take offence,
They're doing nothing wrong.
Don't take the huff, just do you're stuff,
Don't feel misunderstood.
The point you're missin' is that they'll listen
If you're any good.

08 Dec 06 - 07:23 PM (#1903987)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: MartinRyan

Just to answer Jack Campin's question:

Yes - there are places in Dublin where you'll hear songs (Irish, English, Scottish..) of which Sam Henry collected versions, and lots of songs in Irish too. The most reliable is the Goilín Singers Club in Mayes pub in Dorset Street on Friday nights - lots of reference ot it in other threads. But beware! You might also hear more familiar songs, music hall favourites, American songs, the odd Polish song etc. etc. etc. In short, with luck, you'll be at a true, organic singing session where the playlist evolves from the conscious, subconscious and occasionally unconscious minds of those present - with no real distinction between "singers" and "listeners". It's not perfect - at times it's a very long way from perfect - but above all, its not "precious"!

Regards

Regards

08 Dec 06 - 07:26 PM (#1903994)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: TRUBRIT

Why would anyone be as rude as Clinton is being? Just sign me - puzzled in Portland -- Love you, Kendall!!!!!!

08 Dec 06 - 07:43 PM (#1904006)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Who did I criticize? Name someone.
I'm beginning to think you took it personal. That was not my intent, just a general observation.
Old saying "Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp."

08 Dec 06 - 08:37 PM (#1904035)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Clinton rude? You're wrong there dude,
He tells it like it is.
I think you'll find that he speaks his mind
In a style that's surely his.
Kendall's a guy who don't see eye to eye
With Clinton, he only finds fault,
Their sparring just serves to get on his nerves
It's a shame that they can't call a halt.

08 Dec 06 - 09:21 PM (#1904070)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Effsee

Sheesh, that's not Mohammed Ali we have on board here is it?

08 Dec 06 - 11:51 PM (#1904209)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

No, no - he'd be too scared to show his face here ...

09 Dec 06 - 12:40 AM (#1904227)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Stilly River Sage

So, after a busy week and a nice mellow glass of beaujolais, I click on this thread wondering if at least one of the world's problems has been solved, that of bands competing with the television in bars.

Silly me, thinking the thread might still be on track. Or that a suggestion to solve the problem might actually have been noticed.

Ah, well. Back to the BS section. It's safer down there. . . I probably won't revisit this thread, so don't bother to snipe. . .

SRS

09 Dec 06 - 12:42 AM (#1904228)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Clinton Hammond

"just a general observation"

... that was a load of arrogant horseshit!

09 Dec 06 - 02:53 AM (#1904269)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

No, CH, to call you an arrogant load of horseshit is to insult horseshit.

09 Dec 06 - 04:45 AM (#1904296)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Just bite the bit, don't talk of horseshit,
The one thing it's good for is roses.
Don't talk of shite, then maybe you might
Convince us before this thread closes.
If it's your passion to talk in this fashion
To try and put over your case,
Try and remember in front of each member
You're both of you just losing face.

09 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM (#1904356)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

My full list of songs is here

These are the songs that you will here at nearly all sessions in Ireland, I play most of them regurarly , This is my own site and my contribution to keeping our songs alive.

09 Dec 06 - 09:03 AM (#1904435)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

Great library of lyrics, Shaneo - thanks!

09 Dec 06 - 09:15 AM (#1904454)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Yup, I struck a nerve alright.

09 Dec 06 - 09:37 AM (#1904475)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

Kendall - aren't you supposed to be convalescing? I do hope you find this fellow more of an amusing distraction than a petty annoyance ...

09 Dec 06 - 09:42 AM (#1904478)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer

Shaneo.
Great site. Thank you.
Beer

09 Dec 06 - 09:42 AM (#1904479)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Fliss

We are very lucky with our session at the Boat Inn, Jackfield.

The musicians have played Irish Music there for over 20 years. There has been a succession of landlords who have made the session welcome.

We take over on a Thursday night; move the furniture around, repel all boarders to make sure that musicians are seated. We have a tot of Irish Whiskey about half way thru the session - courtesy of the pub.

The smokers have been pursuaded to smoke outside (as in Ireland), which makes it so much nicer for those playing flutes, whistles and singing.

In return for the hospitality we list the session on all folk sites.

So cheers to the landlord and staff.

And merry Christmas from a very soggy Boat Inn... see my thread on Submerged Session!

fliss

09 Dec 06 - 09:56 AM (#1904489)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

It just goes to show that the more that they know
The less some folk understand.
Their head can get stuck up their ass and bad luck
Will lead them to hell by the hand.
The same ones purport that life is too short
For anger and venom and bile.
Don't spoil for a fight and stop talking shite
And smile you sad buggers, just smile.

09 Dec 06 - 10:09 AM (#1904498)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

I'm so pleased with the result of my operation that even Clinton Hammond can't throw enough cold water to dampen my spirits. I thank everyone who offered prayers to the Great Spirit to assist with my healing.

09 Dec 06 - 03:29 PM (#1904728)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: gnu

Hey, Kendall. SHUT UP... for two more days, anyway! Hey, bud, we all know Clint ain't worth wastin yer breath on. And, anyone knows you knows that. Ya don't have to know Clint to know, ya know... most know.

So glad to hear things went well. Thay had to. The Great Spirit woulda got his ass kiced by one helluva lotta people! You just take care and "walk slow", eh.

09 Dec 06 - 03:42 PM (#1904740)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,memyself

(Nothing worse than having your ass kiced!).

09 Dec 06 - 04:45 PM (#1904792)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

Great stuff Fliss--that's how it should be!

Shaneo, respect! GREAT site, keep it up!

Clinton Hammond (10,149 submissions to Mudcat to now) needs to grow up. Why not spend your time more productively by playing a little music and entertaining people (that is, if you are capable of doing so!)?

Kendall (13,496 submissions to Mudcat to now) should know better than to waste bandwith by bickering with Clinton.

09 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM (#1904800)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

FOR GODS SAKE GET A LIFE

09 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM (#1904801)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Enter gnu, he's escaped from the zoo,
A renegade wilderbeast.
Saying, "Ya don't have to know Clint to know, ya know,"
That much is clear at least.
Without fear or stint he's saying that Clint
Ain't worth pissing on if he caught fire.
Curious advice, which ain't very nice,
The Great Spirit would find it quite dire.

09 Dec 06 - 05:26 PM (#1904821)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

The part where Clinton chose to take offence, where pretty clearly none was intended, and this thread turned nasty:

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall - PM
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:46 PM

I wish I'd been there to walk out with you.
If a performer is so needy that he/she will put up with any disrespect then that's their business. It's pathetic, but still their business.

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Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: ClintonHammond - PM
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 05:12 PM

That's pretty rich coming from you Kendall

Or do you really think the sun shines out your arse?
..................

I suppose he must have thought that kendall's comment referred to him, rather than to Shaneo's mates who didn't walk out.

Sometimes it can be worth actually listening to the songs we sing:

life's too short to worry
Life's too long to wait
Too short not to love everybody
Life's too long to hate...

09 Dec 06 - 07:54 PM (#1904935)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Gulliver is right, and I do know better, but I just can't figure out why he has the knife out for me. Things that I don't understand bug me.

09 Dec 06 - 09:36 PM (#1904991)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Effsee

Hey Kendall, don't take it personal, he's just like a rabid dog, takes a bite at anyone who just happens to be passing! Sad case really.

09 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM (#1904999)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Peace

Kendall,

Listen up because I intend to say this just once: You ain't gotta prove jackshit to no one!

Also, you take good care of that throat. There's more CDs in there, and I expect to hear 'em in THIS lifetime.

09 Dec 06 - 10:37 PM (#1905030)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL

OK Kendall. Here is the explanation.
When one can not get attention for one's accomplishments, one chooses to use foul language, lash out with imbecilic nonsense, and then declare either that you misunderstood or they don't care what you think.
You, of course, are accomplished, world famous, incredibly sexy, and beloved by people whose opinion counts. Therein lies the rub.
The insecure among us justify their own existence by trying to convince the forum (and themselves) that you are out of date, out of music, and arrogant. Those who know you are amused at these comments.
Instead of arguing with the sound and the fury, pity it and move on. You are better than this petty crap.
You are loved and treasured. Enjoy it.

As for walking out of a session - when the smoke and noise get to be too much, I go. A session is not a paying gig, though. Kendall, I know you have walked out of circles and sessions when the noise or the rudeness is just too much. Have you ever walked off a stage? Or out of a paying gig?
Just curious.

10 Dec 06 - 01:26 AM (#1905107)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

Jeeeezuz Kendall ... just ignore the guy.

You have established and proven your talent ... and you are respected and admired for it. No need to feel a few cheap jibes will make us think otherwise.

biLL

10 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM (#1905155)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Kendall's confused and slightly bemused
And can't understand Clints' obsession,
He's taken aback by the barrage of flack
That's got nothing to do with the session.
His friends rally round, they're as sound as a pound,
They counter the sound and the fury,
So, Clinton take heed, your words and your deeds
Ain't goin' down too well with this jury.

10 Dec 06 - 07:18 AM (#1905222)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer

Hay Guest! Reveal yourself. You got talent.
Beer

10 Dec 06 - 08:41 AM (#1905270)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Yes indeed. Show yourself.

10 Dec 06 - 09:50 AM (#1905306)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...

10 Dec 06 - 01:34 PM (#1905455)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Mary, it's scary, you're so contrary
And the curtain must surely stay closed.
To avoid distortion, your words of caution
Can only be supposed.
Contentment is wealth and so is good health
Nothing in life is more certain,
Kendall and Beer, I wish you good cheer
From the man behind the curtain.

10 Dec 06 - 01:36 PM (#1905459)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

I need a young priest and an old priest!

11 Dec 06 - 08:41 AM (#1906244)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy

GOOD GRIEF CHARLIE BROWN - WHAT'S GOING ON HERE ???

I've just read all the way through this thread and what started out as a really good thread has been hijacked by a small minority engaging in a very dirty, and frankly childish, Catfight.

CLINTON HAMMOND and GUEST (hiding behind his cowardly curtain of anonymity) GET OFF THE THREAD so that decent and respectable people can engage in civilised conversation and contributions.

CH - You come across as a very very twisted,blistered and bitter old man. You dribble your poison and venom all over the page and INFECT threads like a bubonic plague virus. You fill the room with your bile and spittle and bad cerebral breath.
What happened to you? Are you sick?

GUEST - you are nearly as bad as CH. Are you his alter ego or are you actually CH spewing further bile under another tormented guise? And where is all this gush of poetic diarrhoea coming from?
I thought this was a Mudcat thread about folk sessions for debate and discussion - not poets corner!!

By the way, I am suprised that the 'Mudcat Police' have not spotted your collective outpourings of filth and misuse of the queens language and scrubbed you off the site.
Where are the police when you need them?

To every other polite and reasonable soul I implore you to simply ignore the poison dwarfs (in the mental sense). Simply pay no heed to them and do not allow them to rankle you. Any response to them will only feed their over-inflated and blood-sucking egos.
Nasty attention-seeking poor souls like this HATE TO BE IGNORED. It cuts off their blood supply and lust for spreading their venom.
They will eventually dry up and wither away back into the ether if you do not respond to them.
It's a bit like picking an irritating scab, if you can stop yourself from picking it it will heal up and go away soon enough.

THis is a good thread and one worth saving to receive many more decent,informative and fair contributions.
So let's draw a line here and DO NOT REPLY AT ALL TO ANY MESSAGES FROM CLINTON HAMMOND AND GUEST. Man, that won't half p... them off!

I fully support and agree with the right to 'Freedom of Speech' but they have over stepped the mark of decency and showing respect for others. I vote for freedom from speech which is heavily tainted with insult, bigotry, foul language and undisguised hate.
It has no place here.

Nuff said

Nuff said. Thank you.

11 Dec 06 - 09:27 AM (#1906284)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

Walking out of a session? Well, that's better nor being kicked out, innit! :-)

11 Dec 06 - 09:58 AM (#1906329)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

Much better than being kicked out , but I still think the songs we learn over the years deserve a bit of respect.
We never try to domineer a pub/club when we play ,when people go to a session on for example a regular Monday night they go to hear music not television.
We play unplugged for the most part except the low whistle player who brings a small amp.
I am sick and tired of televisions blaring away when nobody is even watching them.
Instead of banning smoking in pubs the television should have been dumped in the skip.
From the time the smoking ban was introduced in Ireland 600 pubs have closed , maybe if the publicans put on a bit of entertainment for the punters they would be still open.
So I say ditch the television and bring back real entertainment in pubs , eg. real musicians playing real music and not some 2 piece outfit with backing discs [feckin karaoke merchants]

11 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM (#1906340)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

Problem is, quite often the locals aren't really interested in folk music but do want the television or the juke box.

We had this problem in a venue that we used - we were in the unused dining area that opened omnto the bar and after a few months were told that we could no longer use that area as the landlord was going to start doing evening meals. I don't think he ever did - it was more that his regular customers didn't want us there. That happened at a couple of venues and the regulars are the pub's bread and butter. They do pay the piper (or not - as the case should be)

Unfortunately the music we like ain't mainstream and you have to find a landlord with a liking for the music. Our group ended up in what used to be the Conservative club - now members only but allowing the group to use the dining area on a Wednesday night, when they had very little custom. It meant that there was less chance of outsiders finding the session by chance but did mean that there could be a regular session without disturbance.

11 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM (#1906347)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

I agree, if the regulars don't like the music then you might as well pack up and find another venue. Easier said than done, but don't give up!

11 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM (#1906422)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

With you again Shaneo.

11 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM (#1906454)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

If you want to watch the telly it's much easier stopping at home to do it. Football matches and such are the exception, I suppose, where a bit of a crowd adds something.

11 Dec 06 - 12:26 PM (#1906471)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

But the regulars do want the music and some even bring along instruments to join in , it's the pub management or bar staff that seem to have a problem , the bar staff being aged twenty something and not into the folk music and the punters being mostly over forty years old having grown up with folk/ballads.
We have come across this reaction once before in our local G.A.A. club[Irish football] where the staff were much younger that the punters ,again the customers wanted us to be there but the bar staff did not , and again they used the television to drive us away by leaving the sound up too high.we were asked back but declined .

11 Dec 06 - 12:39 PM (#1906478)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

It's a shame that staff are dictating to the people who pay their wages what is and isn't acceptable. I used to do pub work in the 70s and as far as my landlady was concerned the customer could do no wrong. Obviously those that got right out of line were dealt with but, in general, Sylivie had the attitude 'give the customer what they want and you'll stay in business'. If we had behaved in the way thses peole are doing we would have been out of a job in two seconds flat!

It seems it needs a push by the punters to say - give us what WE want or we go elsewhere.

11 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM (#1906526)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Peace

Hey. I have walked out of a few over the years. Crawled out of a few others.

11 Dec 06 - 01:24 PM (#1906529)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy

I have talked to some landlords/landladies who are not keen to host or encourage folk sessions in their pubs and clubs.
The reason they give is that they have tried it in the past but sold very little beer/lager etc. Musician sessions,they say, are the worst culprits as they play and play all night and nurse half a pint for two hours or more.
Singers sessions,it seems, have fared better because they seem to attract more hearty (and heavy) drinkers but if they don't attract and actively encourage a sizeable (drinking) audience then it's a commercial numbers game again and landlords can pull the plug because of poor profit margins.
Unfortunately that's business and it is a sign of our times.

If you can find a great venue with seperate and distinct rooms, a friendly and supportive landlord AND locals, no juke box or TV, great real ale and a regular shedule for weekly/monthly sessions -
HANG ON TO IT WITH YOUR LIFE !!

11 Dec 06 - 03:44 PM (#1906673)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

That's right - if the punters want the music and the management don't it's time for you all to move on.

11 Dec 06 - 04:14 PM (#1906701)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

Soldier boy, they are interesting points.

There's another side to the coin too, though. There's a pub in Dublin that's ideal for a session, because the room where the musicians play is partitioned off, so the music isn't heard by the punters who may be watching television, and vice versa. The small group of musicians who meet there are very good, but they tend to play tunes (Irish) or songs (American--sixties or old timey) that hardly anybody knows, and they do not encourage others to join in--THEY are the performers. So what could be an interesting evening ends up with just the 3 or so musicians in a corner playing to themselves, which is a waste of good talent and of a good venue (in my opinion).

11 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM (#1906708)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Skipjack K8

Hmm, this idea probably requires a program re-write, as it is drawn from the chat room. Every time ol' Clint gets his meds out of kilter and gets bilious in there, there is an 'ignore' button, and the chat room participant is immume from his ranting at the click of a merciful button.

If this could be rolled out in the main Forum program, one could choose not to read Guest, Clint, Shambles (although I don't personally think old Rog is the spawn of Satan) or whoever gets on your tits.

This has probably been thought of many times before, and I have an original idea every Sheffield flood, but it is great fun starving 'oh so outrageous' posters the oxygen of publicity on your screen, or having to consume their vomit.

Pyrrhic or not, it is your victory, Shaneo.

11 Dec 06 - 04:30 PM (#1906723)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

Hey, you can always CHOOSE not to read his posts. Why do you need a magic button to exclude them from offending your delicate sensibilities.

If you include more singalongs (which means doing a lot of the more boring standards... sorry, you folks who like to show off your obscure discoveries) people tend to pour more beverage down their throats, which makes you more welcome to the venue and the clientele.

11 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM (#1906761)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan

Gulliver,

I don't agree with your post at all. The musicians who play in the session are the ones who decide what to play. It is not a waste of the room, they are having the session they want to have. Sessions are not generally performances for audiences. They are primarily for the musicains who play in them, but a lot of people love to go along and listen to that. There are loads of places in Dublin you'll find sing alongs. If thats what you want go to those places. If this sounds elitist then so be it.

Soldier boy your generalisation about tunes palyers, as with most generalisations is suspect at best. I know lots of them who will oblige by necking drink down all night and lots of people who go to hear them who do likewise.

11 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM (#1906777)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Rowan

I can't speak about Dublin sessions but there is a habit among afficionados of Irish music that seems (to me) to be both unfortunate and widespread. Gulliver describes a version of it. In its more moderate expressions it allows participants to concentrate on technique and repertoire but in its more extreme manifestations it comes across as reactionary exclusivist and nasty.

That said, I've experienced pubs in Australia (mostly Canberra, at the time dominated by extreme middle classes) where singing was forbidden on the grounds that it started fights. But they invited our bush band to play regular gigs for a while, after which a session did get going for a few years.

And, when Ansett was still an airline, it used to be a common practice that folkies would gather at the train station or airport for a session to farewell one of their number who was leaving for any great length of time. There'd be long set dances down the station platform and lots of singing. At Canberra Airport, the TAA staff (I'm showing my age here) welcomed singing and music but the Ansett staff prohibited both. There was one celebrated Christmas where people had come from Melbourne and Sydney to sing carols in a major get-together. Afterwards, at the airport, we needed drinks (available from the bar) but the bat staff vetoed singing. We were allowed to sing outside the bar but not drink there. The bar door was in the TAA section so we compromised by standing outside the door, singing, while holding our drinks across the threshold in the bar area. We didn't interrupt customers, many of whom joined in the fun and, while it's not quite the type of session that started the thread, I though some of you may welcome discussion that (vaguely) centred on its topic.

Cheers, Rowan

11 Dec 06 - 06:05 PM (#1906849)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

Declan wrote:

they are having the session they want to have

Yes, that's correct and that's their right. I just think that if they weren't so exclusive,
a lot of people would enjoy going there even just to listen (and they are quite good),
but judging by the emptiness of the room, visitors (musical and non-musical) seem put off
by their attitude (like me) and don't come back.

It's only a matter of time before the landlord will find a better use for this room and that will be the end of it...

11 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM (#1906859)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Charlie Brown

"I vote for freedom from speech which is heavily tainted with insult, bigotry, foul language and undisguised hate. It has no place here."

Rules out most of your post then Soldier boy!

That's the best example of what you don't want that I have read.

11 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM (#1906863)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

extreme middle classes

That's a new one on me. It could mean a lot of different things - here it clearly means respectable, but I can think of a few where the extreme would be far from that.

11 Dec 06 - 06:26 PM (#1906872)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

"extreme middle classes"

bigotry?

Insult?

undisguised hate?

Take your pick.

11 Dec 06 - 07:11 PM (#1906909)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy

I fully endorse what you say Cluin,Gulliver and Scrump.
I guess it all depends on WHY the musicians/singers are in a pub/club in the first place.
If they are a small clique of folkie friends/associates who just want to get together to have a "Pivate" acoustic session then,with the agreement of the landlord/lady,they should hole up in a secluded room well away from the main bar area and just entertain themselves.

If,however they are there at the behest of the owner/landlord as an attraction/treat for his clientelle they should perhaps be centre stage in the main bar or in a room big enough for the musicians/singers AND interested/participating members of the 'public'.
This will only work though if the 'folk session' includes a generous amount of "the more boring standards"(Cluin)which are well known chorus songs that joe public will want to tap his foot to and maybe even join in with. So every one has a good time,drinks lots of beer (So the landlord is also happy!)and go away to tell friends and family what a great time they had.
Actually I don't agree that the standard favourites are boring. These are the ones that an 'audience' will expect and want to hear.
You can always interject some of the more obscure and throat-cutting tunes/songs but leave the standard favourites out at your peril.
As Cluin says this makes you more welcome to the venue and clientele
and also very importantly it shows that you are welcoming and happy to encourage others to learn songs and join in.
If you 'exclude' people it is then that you will have a battle with the background din of disinterested people,TVs,juke boxes and any other form of sabotage that you most probably deserve.
Folk sessions and the folk tradition as a whole was never intended to be a 'private' party turning its back on and excluding the majority. Is for everyone and the more people that are encouraged to play,sing,or just join in with the folk fraternity,the better.

Shaneo, I don't know if the place you walked out of invited you to have a session there or not and I agree that "most pubs will show respect for the musicians and switch off the TV etc" BUT ONLY IF:
* You are welcome/invited by the ownwer/landlord and have checked your position with any new owners.
*You manage to keep the clientele interested and don't just have endless 'twiddley dee' of just musicians for hours on end because joe public will soon lose interest and attention and ask for the TV to be turned up.
*You therefore break up the session to include playing/singing those very traditional and popular songs that (most) people want to hear.
*You spend some money at the bar.
People will most definately turn their backs on real/live music if it 'all sounds the same'(musical wallpaper),has become boring and so they have lost all interest.

If the pub/club venue is not flexible and you are not flexible it isn't going to work. You can't just engage in battle and play/sing louder to compete with TV,chatter,juke box etc.
The only thing you can do is pack up your instruments and voices and seek out a new venue where hopefully it will work out to everyones advantage.
But whilst packing up your instruments sometimes it might be worth asking:
-What went wrong?
-Were we actually welcome there in the first place?
-Did we engage and involve the public/clientele?
-Why did they lose interest?
-How could we change things and be more flexible in our approach so we are less exclusive/private?
-Has it been worthwhile to the owner/landlord in terms of increased custom from customers?
-Did we spend much money over the bar or are we still labelled as "they don't drink enough" brigade?
-Is there a better location in the pub where if we are not wanted by the pubs customers we can be less intrusive and away from TVs etc.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience Shaneo and wish you every good luck and good hunting in your search.

11 Dec 06 - 07:20 PM (#1906918)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

If you are in effect providing free enertainment, you shouldn't be expected to buy lots of drinks as well. Any self-respecting publican will give you at least one free drink (each) in those circumstances.

If you are NOT in effect providing free enertainment, then it's a different matter ...

11 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM (#1906956)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan

Soldier Boy,

The phrase endless "Twiddley Dee" tells it all. You don't like a night of Irish Traditional tunes, and want it to be an entertainment.

That is fine, but if this is intended to be a traditional Irish session in a Dublin pub, then that means a night of tunes, with maybe a few songs if the musicians want that.

There are venues that have sing songs and that is fine, there are sessions with a mix of songs and tunes, and I love them. But a night of traditional tunes is what a lot of people want. Anyone who understands the music knows its more than "Twiddley Dee" and if you don't go somewhere else. It's that simple!

By the way, based on the set list, Shaneo's group obviously do mostly songs with a few tunes thrown in, so they don't fit into that category, and most of what they do are crowd pleasers, including having gusests from the audience. So the argument about just playing tunes doesn't apply to them.

But if a session is there as a tunes session, that is a perfectly valid thing to do, and if there are good musicians in the session I and many others would prefer that for the whole night to a crowd of drunks singing the fields of Athen feckin' Ry yet again. And no-one need apologise for that.

11 Dec 06 - 08:24 PM (#1906967)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

Yes, but we've all seen/heard those sessions dominated by a few who endlessly play tunes only they know, plus throw in a couple that sound the same except for one or two notes difference or else they play the same tune in a different key and go through it about 20 times. The novelty wears off listening to these people jack off fairly quickly.

Maybe your sessions are different, but believe me it's a different view from the outside.

11 Dec 06 - 10:07 PM (#1907029)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy

Precisely Cluin. Thats what I meant when I clumsily said "Twiddley Dee" music. I did not mean to be disparaging to traditional Irish tunes because I love them and can listen to them for hours.

BUT where I was trying to come from was from the perspective of the listening public/a pubs clientel etc. I am also putting myself in the shoes of the English public I have talked to and witnessed at festivals all over England especially on the 'fringe'and mainly in pubs - and not typical sessions in a Dublin pub.
I have been to Dublin and other parts of Ireland and would agree that what you will find is mostly musician sessions,often of a very high standard indeed ( even some sessions churned out endlessly for English and American tourists!).

I apologise for not making it clearer in my last posting but I really was trying to convey the impression and mind set of Joe public. Sometimes we can become so insular and clique that we lose or don't care about what others think about or perceive of our music. Whilst we might love it to bits and become consumed in a session of music you have to maintain the interest of Joe public if that is what you are there for.

Attention spans soon waine if not kept engaged and interested and if not they will quickly turn their backs and talk amongst themselves.
That's all I was saying. It is indeed "a different view from the outside"(thanks Cluin)

And yes GUEST,meself If you are providing free entertainment it is only fair that you don't have to buy loads of drinks and should get one or even two free drinks from the bar and maybe some free sandwiches or even hot pork pies and mushy peas (in Yorkshire.)

The main gripe I have heard from publicans is directed at mainly wholly musician sessions where they are not paid to "perform" to an audience but take over a room and play just to themselves and do not welcome intrusion from strangers.
Of such gatherings a Yorkshire publican and good friend of mine very recently said (quote) "They buy bugger all at the bar and I'm seriously considering whether it is worth reserving that room for them every sunday night"

Declan, there is nothing wrong with singing Athen Ry if you are there to entertain and the 'public' askes for it.

What is this current snobbery and disdain about doing songs that are emotional, heart-felt and raise the hairs at the back of the neck of Mr Joe Public when they are sung. They love them - what's wrong with that?
They will last much longer and still be in demand long after the obscura that many people feel inclined to sing today.
You might think that such songs are sung too often and are over done but how else do songs survive from one generation to another and keep the tradition going?
What can be wrong with "crowd pleaser" songs - we are all in the entertainment industry in some shape or form - aren't we?

11 Dec 06 - 10:55 PM (#1907063)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

Declan, I can sympathise with your point of view and know many
musicians who share it. I love good fiddle playing, for example, and
don't think a really good Irish fiddler needs any accompaniment.

There has always been snobbery among musicians (of all ilks)--they
have the artistic temperament after all, and the same could be said of any branch of the arts.
Very often it's just tuppence
ha'penny looking down at tuppence, or cronyism. Part of human
nature, really, and will always be around.

But music IS entertainment, and the older I get the more I tend to
sympathise with those who want to participate (listening, playing or singing),
and so what if it means playing the Kesh for the umpteenth time,
or a few songs get sung--it's not going to signal the end of traditional music, is it?

I find it sad when enthusiastic non-musicians come to a session
(usually tunes-only), looking for some entertainment, and are bored
silly after half an hour and leave never to return, because the musicians
are wrapped up in their own tunes or banter and take no notice whatsover of their audience.
I've been asked to come to join in some of these, but only if I take my mandolin and leave the guitar at home
(a guitar means--shock, horror!--that someone might sing a song!). So I don't go.

Last year I sang a song (in Irish) in the Cobblestone and was almost
lynched by the musicians present. The punters loved it and wanted more,
but the scathing looks from the musicians prevented it.
I never went back to that particular session. Silly, isn't it?

11 Dec 06 - 11:36 PM (#1907080)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

" ... one or even two free drinks from the bar and maybe some free sandwiches or even hot pork pies and mushy peas (in Yorkshire.)"

Umm ... how be if I take the drinks and give you my mushy peas?

As for the other stuff - you guys are talking apples and oranges, and trying to say that because you prefer one, it is innately superior. There is no need to come to a resolution - some people want to sing the well-known songs and have the whole house join in. Others don't give a damn about the so-called punters; they want to concentrate completely on their instrumental music, and they don't want to be interrupted by songs, particularly those well-known songs that they find annoying. They aren't concerned about entertainment, and they don't want their session to turn into a sing-song, which is usually a possibility, if they aren't careful. You songsters are not going to convince the instrumentalists that they should be more open to your songs, and the instrumentalists are not going to convince you that your songs should not be sung. So, just accept it; live and let live. If you fit in with the session, join; if you don't, find another one where you do fit in. Don't bother trying to change anyone's mind about this; it ain't gonna happen ...

As a singer and instrumentalist myself, I've been on both sides of this impasse, and have been insulted from both sides at one time or another, so I understand the feelings of those on either side.

12 Dec 06 - 02:41 AM (#1907151)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

200

12 Dec 06 - 03:45 AM (#1907176)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Blowzabella

Guest, memyself - surely, if you view the session as 'yours' and don't 'give a damn about the punters', all you are doing is engaging in a different activity in a pub, which is self-absorbing - much like playing darts or dominoes - in that it gives you pleasure, but isn't designed to necessarily engage or involve anyone outside the participating group.

The difference being, though, that the other users of the room (ie those who have gone to do something else) MIGHT find that your activity impinges on THEIR ability to use the room to do whatever it is that gives them pleasure - even if that is just watching telly.

In those circs, the landlord is going to have to decide what ambience he wants to create in his pub, or which group makes him th emost money.

Having live music on isn't necessarliy a money spinner - especially if the musicians aren't, by their own admission, there to entertain. It's fine if the landlord has an otherwise empty bar, or side room, but if another group, who is likely to drink more, decide they want to use it....

If all musicians want to do is play, essentially, to themselves, why isn't someone's front room, with a few bottle-conditioned beers, an appropriate venue?

12 Dec 06 - 04:04 AM (#1907182)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Soldier boy, do you enjoy
Good order in the session?
Does noise and talk force you to walk
And trigger your aggression?
Then go back with your regiment, get pleasure from the songs,
Playing with your privates and fiddling with your gongs.

Solder boy, do you enjoy
Beer and morris dancing,
Act the prat in a flowery hat
And call it life enhancing?
Morrismen from Huddersfield should stay well out of sight,
They all wear ladies' underwear and don't know how to fight.

Soldier boy, I don't enjoy
Weading what you wite
Your wantings and your wavings
Are Widiculous and twite.
Your wamblings are wevealing and you weally are quite barmy,
The highest wanking officer to gwace the Bwitish army.

12 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM (#1907270)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Wild Rover

I walked out of a session I used to frequent,
The noise was appalling, me patience was spent.
I'd asked them for order, they answered me Nay!
Such music as yours we can get any day.

And it's no nay never, no nay never no more,
Will I play in that alehouse, no never no more.

12 Dec 06 - 07:10 AM (#1907284)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

I find that a good mix of songs/tunes goes down much better that sticking to one particular form of music when you are trying to be inclusive and get the crowd going , but for the most part stick to what you know best.
There was a time we wouldn't sing songs like 'The Town I Loved So Well' or Dirty Old Town' and The Fields Of Athenry , but if that's what they want to hear then do them .
Watch what songs get people singing and over time you get to know what they like.
I know I may get some stick for admitting this but we can go from playing Buddy Holly to Elvis and back to 'Take Me Home To Mayo' and not loose credibility [if that's the right word]

12 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM (#1907323)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

The Dinosaurs all died off because they were unable to cope with a changing invironment. Is that what's happening to us?

12 Dec 06 - 09:23 AM (#1907363)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

Blowzabella - You're right; I had somewhat lost sight of the question at hand, that of the TV turned up, etc., and was just talking in a general way. In fact, I WAS talking about simply "engaging in a different activity in a pub", as you put it, so I don't have any disagreement with what you're saying. I would add, however, that I have known of a number of instances where that particular activity has added considerably to the custom of a drinking establishment, to the point where the deadest night of the week has become the busiest. But clearly that's not always going to be the case, and it's the publican's call. Well, it may be the musicians' call, depending what their goal is: in the instance of one tremendously "successful" Wednesday night pub session I used to occasionally attend, it became such an attraction, and the place became so busy and frenetic, that the musicians turned down the offer of weekly payment, packed up their instruments, and found a quieter pub ... Strange but true!

12 Dec 06 - 10:03 AM (#1907386)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Wesley S

"The Dinosaurs all died off because they were unable to cope with a changing invironment. Is that what's happening to us?"

Good point Kendell. Perhaps all the dinosaurs nned to do it find the proper habitat. Even we dinosaurs can flourish if the location is right.

12 Dec 06 - 10:13 AM (#1907397)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: John Routledge

Yes Wesley - Location Location Location

12 Dec 06 - 11:24 AM (#1907449)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Not the tar pits!

12 Dec 06 - 12:29 PM (#1907506)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

"Is that what's happening to us? "

It's what happening to people like you, we hope

12 Dec 06 - 01:10 PM (#1907528)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Guests first please

12 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM (#1907642)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

Be fair. The Dinosaurs probably died off because the place got blown up.

12 Dec 06 - 03:29 PM (#1907652)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

When I invited some of my work colleagues to a pub I was playing in two years ago, they took one look at the clientele and promptly re-named the place "Jurassic Park".

12 Dec 06 - 04:11 PM (#1907702)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

I would never go to a place where they played rock, rap or jazz. Why would anyone go where they play folk if they don't care for it? If you don't like old lizards, stay out of Jurassic Park.
When you come to the mudcat you know that it is dedicated to Folk and blues. If you don't like folk or blues, why are you here?

12 Dec 06 - 04:35 PM (#1907724)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Rowan

Gulliver's post reminded me of an occasion when I took a friend to the Numeralla folk festival; at the time this festival was like an extended week-end-long session. She was an artist (not music) who'd never been involved with the folk scene, let alone been to a folk festival. For almost the whole of the weekend I didn't see her. At the very end of the Sunday she ran into me, excited at what she'd been drawing.

"Such wonderful faces! They all look so lived in!"

I've relished the description ever since, even though I could be a dinosaur.

McGrath took my "Canberra, at the time dominated by extreme middle classes" to task.
I had meant to imply that Canberra at the time was extremely middle class but haste got in the way. When I first arrived in Canberra (1964) there was no public nightlife to speak of. The 'city' was socially organised into "the diplomatic corps", "the university" and "the public service"; if you weren't integrated into one of these you could have a lonely time of it. There was no working class; all the cleaners lived in Queanbeyan, a town across the border in NSW, and travelled to and from work in special buses. The "industrial area" of the ACT was restricted to Fyshwick and there were no old aged pensioners visible.

The place had improved markedly by the mid70s, and the folk scene (mostly the Monaro Folk Soc) was a major part of that improvement. And I regard it as a fact rather than a criticism that most of us in the scene at the time were middle class. Even (especially?) me, a regular blow-in from south of the border, where I was in my element among some of the more assertive representatives of the workers that the middle class loved to patronise.

Cheers, Rowan

12 Dec 06 - 06:41 PM (#1907868)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow

No I wasn't taking you to task Rowan - I was just musing about the different things that "extreme middle class" could mean.

I mean, typically, protest movements against nuclear weapons, for example, get put down as "middle class". And in America when politicians talk about the "middle class" they clearly are including a lot of people who would strongly object to being described as "middle class", if they lived back in Europe.

12 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM (#1907892)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Slag

Well, I've read enough of the thread and got the drift so I'll weigh in with my tupence. What the heck is the matter with the pub owner? Is he running a three ring circus or a pub. He has a choice to make and hopefully one that appeals to the clientele he wants to serve: one or the other, or separate rooms! Some saloons have arcade games but they are in their own area, Big screen TV In its own area WITH APPROPRIATE BAFFLING.

What a gift music is and how fortunate to hear a live performance. Any fool can get snockered and watch TV, at home. Its much safer for us all if its done that way. How rude! Right you were to walk out. They don't deserve live entertainment and you certainly don't deserve the disrespect that was heap upon you.

12 Dec 06 - 08:54 PM (#1907964)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Leadfingers

Having read through this thread , a lot of codswallop has come out , as well as the odd bit of good sense !
What it boils down to is , IF you are being paid to play in a pub , you have made a commitment to 'entertain'
IF on the other hand , a group of musicians and singers have , with the agreement of the bar/pub management arranged to have a 'session'
in the pub and the customers are happy with the music , a degree of politeness is required , in that the barman should NOT turn up the volume of the TV or Juke box . IF said barman persists , then the musicians (In MY opinion) should take their music elsewhere .
By the same token , a group of musicians playing 'for fun' in a pub
should always consider the regulars , and (if possible) do any of the
songs that the regulars request .
In MY book a session is INCLUSIVE , not exclusive .
And a 'performer' who abuses another performer in a public forum is not worth responding to !

12 Dec 06 - 09:34 PM (#1907980)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

Grand, Leadfingers--couldn't have put it better myself!

However, let's not delve too deeply into the meanings of
to 'entertain', a 'session', a 'performer',

lest Pandora's box be re-opened!

12 Dec 06 - 09:50 PM (#1907990)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy

Good points Leadfingers.
It is all about getting the balance right and being sensitive to the needs of others. It should be "inclusive" in the majority of situations but of course you will always find the minority that don't give a damn and are exclusive and often go out of their way to be almost hostile to the regulars/punters.

I have seen this many times when regulars are listening in and enthusistically clap at the end of a tune only to have the musicians blatantly CRINGING at the applause and therefore give out the message that they don't give a toss and would rather they just went away and didn't invade their space.
That is rude and ignorant. It is some kind of "We are proffesionals/prima donnas" sort of scenario and we belong here and you don't.
So long as this continues it gives the whole folk scene a bad name and bad news travells fast.

12 Dec 06 - 09:51 PM (#1907991)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer

Leadfingers.
Thank you , thank you. The thread should end on your wise contribution.
Beer

13 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM (#1908335)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

It's too bad that a whole group of people can be judged by the actions of a few pillocks, but that's life. If I judged all Canadians by one certain piss ant that would be a shame, wouldn't it?

13 Dec 06 - 12:02 PM (#1908487)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Just like if he judged all wankers by your example

That would be an insult to wankers everywhere

13 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM (#1908527)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Don't look now folks but I think it's back.

13 Dec 06 - 01:26 PM (#1908552)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, consider yourself well and truly insulted, Guest.

I would just leave him to it, Kendall. The few scraps of comfort he gets trying to mix with people outside an institution makes it all worthwhile. Consider it you Christmas gift to the underprivaleged.

DtG

13 Dec 06 - 02:25 PM (#1908607)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

LOL

14 Dec 06 - 07:17 AM (#1909282)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

"Consider it you Christmas gift to the underprivaleged."..............who can't spell!!

14 Dec 06 - 07:30 AM (#1909294)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

It's the thought that counts.

14 Dec 06 - 07:48 AM (#1909306)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

At least spelling mistakes can be corrected - not so the mistakes made by ignorance.

14 Dec 06 - 08:53 AM (#1909356)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

I hope old George W. is reading your words of wisdom.

15 Dec 06 - 07:44 AM (#1910143)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,myself

Is everybody walking out of the thread now?
Must be catching!

15 Dec 06 - 07:47 AM (#1910147)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself (formerly known as memyself)

Clarification: the previous post is not by me (meself/memyself); it's by someone obviously trying to cash in on my fame with a subtle variation on my name, sort of a tribute-poster, I suppose ...

15 Dec 06 - 09:31 AM (#1910202)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,myself

I'm just trying to be myself, meself.(formerly known as memyself)

Apologies.

I'll go and be someone-else, even though I was always told to try and be myself.

15 Dec 06 - 06:41 PM (#1910593)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

Excellent decision, yourself; remember, free advice is worth what you paid for it. Well, I guess I'll tell my legal team to go back to the bench for awhile. I hope you understand that I must be vigilant in protecting my brand name; the consumer is fooled so easily ...

15 Dec 06 - 06:46 PM (#1910594)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

(Warning: thread drift ahead!).

"And in America when politicians talk about the "middle class" they clearly are including a lot of people who would strongly object to being described as "middle class", if they lived back in Europe."

McGrath: Will you expand on this? I'm not certain which particular "lot(s) of people" you're refering to, and I'm curious.

15 Dec 06 - 06:47 PM (#1910595)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

Become a member - that way there is no doubt about who is posting!

15 Dec 06 - 06:59 PM (#1910601)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

I'll have the clerical branch get right on that. But it does take time. There's always protocol, and then this one's away on holidays; that one's on maternity leave again, and on and on ...

16 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM (#1910869)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan

Meself (formerly known as memyself), were you once part of the well known group Memyself and I, before 'I' walked out of session?

Back to the thread (I've been engaging in pre-yuletide madness for the last few days), the best that can be said that it is almost impossible to generalise on these things. What constitues as session tends to vary from pub to pub, let alone from country to country.

Shaneo chose not to stay in a session where it was clear that the staff working in the bar were not showing respect for the music. He was perfectly enitled to do that. If he was getting paid to play music in the session, that would have been a different matter. You might think that it would be odd for a pub to book and pay musicians to play on a given night and then have a telly blaring so the music can't be heard, but I've seen it happen many times.

Publican's are free to allow singing or music in their pubs if they wish or not if they don't. If they choose not to, then the musicians can find another pub to play in.

Most socialising in Ireland is done in pubs, although this is beginning to change ("Staying in is the new going out") so it is not unusual that a group of musicians who want to get together for a tune would go to a pub to do so. They are not there to entertain the other customers in the pub, unless they have been employed to do so. It is often the case that some if not all of the others will be entertained by what the musicians are doing, and its great when that happens.

If the customers want to ask for a particular song and join in with it thats fine by me, if they ask in a resonable way. (Getting pestered by drunks is an occupational hazard of pub musicians, and I try my best not to encourage that sort of behaviour). But in a situation where the level of requests substantially alters the nature of the session, like turning a tunes session into a sing-song, the musicians have a right to call a halt to this, if they are unhappy about it.

As for musicians repeating tunes, this too depends on the situation. I've heard great musicians repeat the same tune ten times, never playing the same way twice and found it fascinating, I've heard tunes in sessions where twice is too often. Hogging the limelight in a session is bad behaviour, unless you are paid to keep the session going (as is often the case) or everyone else in the session is quite happy to have one or two musicians dominate the session and join in with the bits they know.

16 Dec 06 - 06:57 AM (#1910887)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

"Meself (formerly known as memyself), were you once part of the well known group Memyself and I, before 'I' walked out of session?"

Nope - that's another one I'll have to have the legal team look into -

16 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM (#1910929)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

I don't know that it is as prevalent these days but as recently as the 60s there were a considerable number who would describe themselves as "Upper middle class", and look down on the middle classes (and, worse, the lower middle classes) as the sort of people who would put three plaster flying ducks in a row.

The middle classes were ghastly people like the social climber Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced bouquet). They probably went to grammar school (cringe) and could not speak properly.

The Upper middle classes had gone to public school, preferably for more than one generation. Often they were professionals (lawyer, doctor, dentist, military, civil service, vicar, usually not priest because the Upper middle classes were usually not Roman Catholic (apart from those who went to Downside). Some were Jewish. There were some who had displayed an unfortunate taste for art or music at university and become rather bohemian, like Nick Drake. There were very few non-English, usually only those from an equivalent or better foreign milieu who had been educated at Oxford (for some reason usually not Cambridge) who spoke impeccable Queen's English.

Above them were the county set and minor gentry. They (or close relatives) had inherited landholdings.

Above them were the aristocracy - the holders of inherited titles (or the close relatives of such).

"Society" - as in "The Society pages" was different again and did include foreigners a significant proportion of whom or whose families were Greek and owned ships, and eminent families who had colonised the colonies but now had funny accents like South African or Australian.

Apart from the lower middle class, they would all have been horrifed or offended baldly to have been called "Middle Class".

16 Dec 06 - 08:22 AM (#1910932)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

In this country the class you are in depends not on your education, but on your income. The almighty dollar.

16 Dec 06 - 10:59 AM (#1911025)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

Thanks for the explication, Richard. The whole business leaves me feeling a little ... queasy.

"the sort of people who would put three plaster flying ducks in a row"

How many plaster flying ducks would the "Upper middle class" put in a row?

16 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM (#1911033)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

The "Upper middle class" would blast them off the wall with a twelve bore. The ducks that is.

16 Dec 06 - 12:39 PM (#1911093)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL

I don't know. My inflatable moose head was considered the height of bad taste until BatGoddess discovered it in a recent issue of a decorating magazine. Apparently he is now chic and I am upper middle class.
What has any of this to do with walking out of a session?

16 Dec 06 - 01:37 PM (#1911127)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Anyone with breeding wouldn't ask that question.

16 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM (#1911152)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

In England today class is mostly about quality of speech.

16 Dec 06 - 02:11 PM (#1911157)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,just another Guest

"Anyone with breeding wouldn't ask that question."

That's why I didn't ask.

16 Dec 06 - 03:06 PM (#1911195)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Anyone can have a posh accent, but not everyone can feign a white skin and get away with it (e.g. Michael Jackson). Anyway I thought 'Blair's Britain' was all about moving towards a classless society.

I've never walked out of a session as long as there was a pint in my hand.

16 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM (#1911217)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Sorry Guest, but you really can't fake proper speech. Not to one who knows.

16 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM (#1911234)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

"What has any of this to do with walking out of a session?"

You haven't studied the posts closely enough - typical upper-middle-lower-nouveau-parvenu-johnny-come-lately-landed-landless-minor-gentrified-blue-blooded-artistocratic-well-bred-with-no-background-public-grammar-school-Oxford-but-not-Cambridge-or-is-it-the-other-way-around behaviour, if I may so. Somebody mentioned the middle class; McGrath commented; I asked McGrath to extrapolate; McGrath kept mum; Richard Bridge picked up the ball, and the rest, as they say in certain over-educated under-bred circles, is, to use a vulgarly erudite term common to poseurs, history.

16 Dec 06 - 03:55 PM (#1911235)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

"you really can't fake proper speech. Not to one who knows."

I know a certain Professor Higgins who would beg to differ.

16 Dec 06 - 04:15 PM (#1911250)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Anybody with any "class" would continue playing in the face of all adversity. The orchestra on the Titanic set the ultimate example regardless that their ship was also going down. Don't walk.

16 Dec 06 - 07:17 PM (#1911364)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

The musicians on the Titanic had no where to go.

16 Dec 06 - 09:49 PM (#1911437)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

"The orchestra on the Titanic set the ultimate example regardless that their ship was also going down. Don't walk."

good one Guest!! LoL

biLL

16 Dec 06 - 11:09 PM (#1911463)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy

Some recent postings here are talking absolutely bollocks.
Stay true to the theme of the thread or go away.
Can't you get the hint that you are not wanted and are polluting a good thread started with good intent from someone who innocently started a thread inviting well considered and decent contributions.
Or do yo have no concept of what is considered, fair and decent?

16 Dec 06 - 11:21 PM (#1911475)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

"The musicians on the Titanic had no where to go."

Not entirely true. I once read a newspaper interview with a surviving musician, a violinist, I believe. He and another string-player who was a friend jumped overboard. His friend soon succumbed to the cold, but this fellow was a strong swimmer and perhaps more fit generally. Anyway, he made it to a lifeboat and was pulled in. He remained deaf in one ear for life, due to the effects of the cold water. That may have been where I read that the story of the orchestra playing to the end is fantasy.

16 Dec 06 - 11:30 PM (#1911476)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

Thanks for the clarification there meself ... so, they did walk out of the session after all.

Well, there ya go.

biLL

16 Dec 06 - 11:57 PM (#1911483)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Leadfingers

Is swimming away from a session the same as walking away ?

And though I ( as a FAIRLY serious Socialist) consider myself to be Working Class , the fact that I CAN talk proper (?) if I want to , it
may well be that some of my neighbours MAY think I am middle class or
have pretensions in that direction !

And Shaneo made the right decision , though I would probably have had a row with the ignorant shit behind the bar !

17 Dec 06 - 12:01 AM (#1911485)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

"I CAN talk proper (?)"

That would be "properLEE" -

(running for cover)

17 Dec 06 - 03:59 AM (#1911548)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

I suspect Leadfingers was indulging in a little humour.

I am looking forward to McGrath's input on the class question.

Incidentally, I have made it very clear, far above, that I believe that Shaneo was very right to walk.

17 Dec 06 - 05:44 AM (#1911586)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

From what I remember about the Titanic band, as the water reached them they all took to the water with their instruments - only the double bass player survived,

17 Dec 06 - 06:13 AM (#1911603)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

We left a session in York under similar circumstances.

17 Dec 06 - 07:35 AM (#1911653)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

"I suspect Leadfingers was indulging in a little humour." - I'm beginning to question my ability to perceive irony. If I have no such perception, but am aware of its existence, and am able to employ irony, what class does that put me in? (The employer class?).

"I am looking forward to McGrath's input on the class question." - I suspect that McGrath walked out of this session some time ago ...

"- only the double bass player survived" - it may have been an interview with him that I read; I am sure that the interviewee was a string player ...

"Incidentally, I have made it very clear, far above, that I believe that Shaneo was very right to walk." - Moi, aussi. I think that specific issue has been well and thoroughly flogged at this point.

17 Dec 06 - 11:04 AM (#1911783)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Gee, meself, I had no idea you were from the antipodes

17 Dec 06 - 12:33 PM (#1911842)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

Crikie, neither did I!

17 Dec 06 - 12:57 PM (#1911864)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

The triangle player was the one I felt sorry for.

17 Dec 06 - 01:38 PM (#1911904)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Soldier boy

Diiiiiiiiismissed! left-right-left-right-left-right

17 Dec 06 - 03:45 PM (#1912007)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

"they all took to the water with their instruments - only the double bass player survived"

Jeesh, don't tell me some more comedy went over my head. I give up. At least I got the one about the Antipodes ...

17 Dec 06 - 04:19 PM (#1912035)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Well, you said "Moi, Aussie"!!

17 Dec 06 - 04:26 PM (#1912039)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself

Yup, oui, oui; I caught that; figured it out - although I can see why you're going out of your way to point out the pun, considering my sad record in the humour department lately ...

17 Dec 06 - 07:17 PM (#1912186)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: JennyO

they all took to the water with their instruments - only the double bass player survived

I imagine whoever accompanied them on the piano would have done all right too, especially if it was a grand piano!

Boom Boom!

18 Dec 06 - 04:47 AM (#1912419)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

You've obviously never tried taking to the water on a grand piano - it's not as easy as it looks - although I admit it's a darn sight easier than sailing an upright ;-)

18 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM (#1912520)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

In the play Was He Anyone? 1972) by N F Simpson, an organisation which does NOT RESCUE people in distress, but merely renders them sufficient aid to stop them from getting bored while waiting for the help that will actually rescue them to arrive, gives a guy who has fallen overboard from a cruise ship a grand piano to help him pass the time. Of course, he can't actually play, so they have to give him lessons, and then it starts to get absurd...

Well, N F Simpson was from the Theatre of the Absurd, a style of comedy similar to The Goons and Monty Python...

18 Dec 06 - 09:08 AM (#1912570)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

This thread is all at sea!!

18 Dec 06 - 09:23 AM (#1912578)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

It reminds me of the Goon Show (1950s BBC Radio comedy show) episode "Napoleon's Piano" where the Goons steal Napoleon's piano ("the very piano Napoleon played at Waterloo") from the Louvre museum in Paris, and in the absence of any other transport, have to sail it back to England. Found the entire script here in case anyone's interested... :-)

18 Dec 06 - 09:35 AM (#1912587)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

Ah yes - a simple job, just move a piano from one room to another...

... in another country.... :-)

They forgot the sheet music, so they had to busk*** all the way...

***which is 'making it up as you go along' - like 'vamping'...
- not 'begging with music for money'!!!

;-)

19 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM (#1913495)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

I waked into a session. Bloomin' amazing!

19 Dec 06 - 08:14 AM (#1913501)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

What, were you asleep GUEST? :-)

I fully intend to walk out of a session tonight. When it finishes, that is.

19 Dec 06 - 05:06 PM (#1914080)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

No I was fully conscious. Trouble was I found it hard to hold a conversation without raising my voice. Some of the musicians seemed to be evesdropping and they kept looking over in my direction. However, it got better when one or two left early and I found I could hear myself speak. The music wasn't bad but I think they should keep it down a bit.

20 Dec 06 - 04:22 AM (#1914479)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

Oops, when I wrote that yesterday I should have said "tomorrow night" not "tonight" - meaning tonight, not last night.

20 Dec 06 - 06:19 AM (#1914546)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Hows about a different slant on the original question.
I attend a weekly unique (in my experience) session/open mike where the singer/instrumentalist performs three songss/tunes thru P.A. Anyone else is free to play/sing along. The original idea was to encourage new/novice players to learn/practice in a friendly atmosphere with experienced musicians.
Pub visitors sit in the room & enjoy a free show which on any one night can consist of Folk, Country, Blues, Rock and Classical guitar. (One night a superb flamenco guitarist turned up and brought the house down in appreciation).
I recently walked out of a session when three other 'musicians' had a conversation across a wide table which caused them to shout to be heard. When I sang louder to compensate they commented that I sang too loud! Two of these were new arrivals in the area (excellent musicianns) whilst one is a well known local 'look-at-me-I-am-great' folk singer.
I decided that if they wouldn't show me respect, I couldn't show them any and could no longer support (i.e. play along) their 'spot'.
Punters noise we accept but shouldn't have to suffer it from within.
Whaddya think?

20 Dec 06 - 06:28 AM (#1914551)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

I would make a point of leaving the room or going to the bar during each of the offending people's own spots.

20 Dec 06 - 06:48 AM (#1914558)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Nice idea Scrump!
Will use that if I go back.

20 Dec 06 - 07:02 AM (#1914568)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

If the bar's in the same room as the session, you could probably order a drink with ice in it, for maximum effect ;-)

20 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM (#1914598)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Different room Scrump.
But it might be worthwhile ordering my drink without leaving my seat - the landlady could join in by asking me to repeat my request!
Trouble is, most (all) of the other players said I was correct but that I (we) should have talked when they played. But I find that I cannot be that discourteous after a lifetime of giving order when performers are on stage even if I do not enjoy what they do.
Too soft I assume.

20 Dec 06 - 08:12 AM (#1914611)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Real "them and us" situation here. Where's the arrogance coming from?

Wouldn't it be easier to lighten the situaton and use friendly persuasion to help them to understand your concerns?

20 Dec 06 - 08:30 AM (#1914628)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

It might be a good idea to mention your concerns to whoever runs the session, if you can get a chance to have a quiet word before it starts. Then maybe he/she can make a general announcement to the effect that people should keep quiet while others are performing.

That assumes, of course, that the person isn't one of the three 'offenders'; and that it is indeed the etiquette to keep quiet while people are performing (that seems to be the case normally, but there may be exceptions).

20 Dec 06 - 08:33 AM (#1914629)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Take the high ground and leave. Why would you want to be one of them? Of course, it wouldn't hurt to make enough noise to get their attention on your way out.

20 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM (#1914630)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

Been there - seen and heard it. The types that will behave in that way will very rarely be open to friendly persuasion. They are all performers and should be aware of the usual good manners that are owed to other performers.

20 Dec 06 - 08:41 AM (#1914642)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

I haven't mentioned whether I am good or bad, just that I expect courtesy. Not arrogance, just simply do unto others as you would be done to. If you can't understand that then you would probably be sat with them!
They showed arrogance by being discourteous to another performer but expect absolute silence when they play!
The local I mentioned will literally sulk for weeks if anyone speaks during his 'spot' and yet is well known for ignoring others. He will even pick his banjo up and play a totally different tune in an acoustic session. He has been involved in numerous folk bands which have all dissolved because of his self-obsession. 30yrs too late for friendly persuasion!
I have already mentioned it but I will repeat for your benefit - all (ten) other players and several of the audience said I was correct. I later got several emails supporting my stance.

20 Dec 06 - 08:42 AM (#1914643)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Sorry!
Forgot to put my name on last post which was aimed at GUEST!

20 Dec 06 - 09:14 AM (#1914678)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Sounds like you're all shit scared of him. These big boys coming in and taking over your session has got your knickers in a real twist hasn't it? There's no point in whispering amongst yourselves or emailing each other if you're fed up with him/them. If you've got as much support as you claim, tell him to follow the accepted code. He'll either do that or walk. If he does neither then as soon as he starts singing all of you start talking and do that until he gets the message. Don't talk to him as you replied to me - he'll probably smack you in the gob for being an arrogant twat.

20 Dec 06 - 09:27 AM (#1914700)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Guest - If I need lessons in being arrogant I'll come to you - you obviously have plenty to spare!
Why think people are 'scared' of anyone? Most of us have a certain amount of manners instilled in us when young by our parents and know how to behave in company. He (and you) clearly missed out on that and that is your loss!
Thanks to others (good idea Kendall) for your input.

20 Dec 06 - 09:57 AM (#1914737)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

It does sound as if you're right, Guest AA - no amount of persuasion will work with this type of ignorant ill-mannered person (I know the type, unfortunately). If, as you say, the prime offender sulks if anyone dares whisper during his set, then obviously retaliation in kind, as I suggested earlier, is almost guaranteed to get results.

In the unlikely event of this failing to work, I would heartily recommend an assault on his person - the more violent, the better. Not that I'm violent by nature myself, you understand, and I would only do this as a last resort.

As for what to say while the ignorant person is performing, the more mundane and boring the conversation, the better. Here's an example to get you started:

Arrogant bastard folk singer (at the mic): And now, for your edification and extreme pleasure, I will sing my latest epic song, written only this morning on the bus. Although it has a chorus I would ask you not to sing as I would not want my voice to be drowned out by your inferior efforts. Please give it your utmost attention - I will be dropping several pins during this number to check. (starts intro on guitar)

Guest AA (loudly, to neighbour): I see the forecast for the next few days is unsettled, with rain coming in from the south west, and fog patches in the midlands.
Neighbour (equally loud): Yes, and it's predicted that the east coast will be showery with a risk of frost in low-lying areas. By the way, would you like one of these cheese and onion crisps? (rustles bag)
Guest AA: Why thank you - cheese and onion is one of my favourite flavours. I don't like Prawn Cocktail flavour though, do you? (crunches crisps loudly)
(etc.)

20 Dec 06 - 09:58 AM (#1914738)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Uncle Arrogance

"Good idea Kendall" Yea! Run away with your tail between your legs. That'll show him.

20 Dec 06 - 10:12 AM (#1914751)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Thanks Scrump!
I'll try the crisp idea next time I'm in!
By the way GUEST,Uncle Arrogance (very inventive)- I have called in the session for a drink twice since. Have been requested by the other players and the organiser to sing which I have refused. Made it plain to all and sundry that the reason is (as Kendall remarked) that I do not wish to be part of them (the offenders). No one is running - no tail - head held high!
I sing 5/6 nights a week so am not hiding from anyone.
I do not know Kendall but have read many of his posts and doubt if he would be classed as a 'runner' either!

By the way, on the original question on this thread - Yes, you were right to leave Shaneo. If they can't show respect then they don't deserve your respect. Respect is earned!

20 Dec 06 - 10:14 AM (#1914753)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL

troll alert. Move on, Captain. There is nothing to see here.

20 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM (#1914758)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Cluin

We luv ya, babe. But you're sucking all the energy outta the room.

20 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM (#1914775)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

Problem is, in that type of situation, although you may get agreement that the boor is being a boor, most of those who agree aint going to put their heads above the parapet. It comes down to 'anything for a quiet life' and, if they know that there will be any sort of reaction from the guitly party then they will not take any action to stop the abuse.

I was in this position a few years back with ignorant performers not only not doing folk in a folk session but then talking through the performances of those who were doing folk songs. The general position was 'live and let live' which really pissed me off. I took to visiting the loo or ordering drinks when one of them was doing the latest interminable Oasis song (badly) or another was singing 'Summertime' for about the tenth week running.

In the end, and as it appeared that the people running the session were not prepared to do anything about it, I stopped going. Soon after that the sessions fell apart and a group of us started up a new session on a strict 'folk' basis.

These idiots, like some posters to this site, have no interest in other people. All they want to do is give their own inflated egos an airing, usually at the expense of others. All they really do is make themselves look small and petty and ridiculous.

20 Dec 06 - 10:31 AM (#1914782)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

300!

20 Dec 06 - 10:37 AM (#1914788)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Leadfingers

Running a session can be a thankless task - IF you try too hard to keep everything moving smoothly , you're liable to be labelled a control freak , but you then get abuse if you DONT keep order !
Sadly there are stil too many clots who dont have any respect for any one else on the scene .

20 Dec 06 - 10:40 AM (#1914790)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Leadfingers

Well Said Jacqui - we were saying a lot of the same thing at the same time , but you snuck in and got the 300 , Dammit !!

20 Dec 06 - 10:43 AM (#1914792)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Thanks for the laugh Uncle Arrogance. Me, run away with my tail between my legs? That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

I will run away from Fire ants, but not from pissants.

20 Dec 06 - 10:45 AM (#1914795)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Midchuck

Unfortunately, being a good musician does not automatically confer immunity from being an asshole. And being a nice person does not automatically make you a good musician. Were it otherwise, all the assholes would be bad musicians and all the bad musicians would be assholes, and we could throw them all out, and only we, who are both nice people and good musicians, would remain.

Too bad it isn't that simple, huh?

Peter.

20 Dec 06 - 12:43 PM (#1914922)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo

This is the same kind of disrespect whether it comes from the bar staff or a fellow musician ,it seems this fella has a chip on his shoulders and needs to be taken down a peg or two , maybe he was just trying to gain popularity with the two new arrivals for when it was his turn at the mike,
I would not WALK out of this session because as you say Anti Arrogance it is unique and who knows what kind of talent may come out of it.
Tell us more , is this dick head the only reason you are dissatisfied ?

20 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM (#1915019)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Yeah Shaneo!
The session is the best I attend because I hear material I would not think of listening to and yet enjoy it when I hear it. Most of the performers are VERY talented at their style - some styles I don't enjoy (I can only take so much blues - sorry) but acknowledge their musicianship and try to follow their styles when its their turn to 'spotlight'. The beginners/novices are pleasant and keen and without this venue would probably give up/not start. One guy after listening for a couple of months, went out, bought a guitar and now sits in with good performers and is learning. He's not great but in time, who knows?
These are the people most disappointed by my non-appearance (so they say) because they can follow my simple chord progressions (mostly).
I have met blues and classical players I would never meet in a folk club and have become close friends with them (even performed in their blues club). So I am loath to walk completely - the organiser is also a close friend but plays in a band with the 'local'.

I will probably be accused of being immodest but in the interest of a complete tale - I am pretty well known in my area and am asked to attend every folk club around. I try to support each one as I get time. The two newcomers are good musicians (I actually love their music) but unknown in this area. The local is well known and rather than be invited is 'put off' by organisers when they can as he is a pain. I have nothing to fear from any of them and I would guess they would be the first to admit it! The 'local' asks me to sing at his club every time we meet.
Sorry to be so long winded but wanted you to get the picture!

20 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM (#1915140)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Rowan

Yet another example of how the personalities/politics of groups can be a source of great wonderment. The only positive suggestion I could offer AA is to consider whether your continued participation is likely to be of more benefit to 'the group' than your continued withdrawal from it and, if it is, whether you can (and wish to) deal with the consequences.

I wish you luck!

Cheers, Rowan

20 Dec 06 - 05:55 PM (#1915158)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

No one is indispensable. Walk and they'll not bat an eyelid, the world will keep turning.

20 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM (#1915159)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

Well said Guest. It is indeed true.

biLL

20 Dec 06 - 06:51 PM (#1915203)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Never thought I or anyone is indispensable!
As the old saying goes - put your hand in a bucket of water and when you take it out, the hole left is the amount you are indispensable!
The pity is that the 'novices' (hate that term but cannot think of another) suffer and some have left in the past for the same reason. Us old hands will just go to a different venue but they will most likely not bother for there is nowhere else they can play. They may not be good but they enjoy what they do and to me that is what folk music is about - participation. Met one in a music shop the other day who said he had stopped going because of the 'local'. Pity- nice fella.
I have other venues asking me to attend so I will alternate and watch progress.
Again, thanks for all your inputs to a guest.

20 Dec 06 - 07:15 PM (#1915217)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

When I leave a venue that is irritating me, it doesn't matter to me that I won't be missed. It's not about THEM...it's about ME.

20 Dec 06 - 07:45 PM (#1915240)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver

In which case I wouldn't walk--I would RUN!

20 Dec 06 - 08:55 PM (#1915293)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

Exactly Kendall, exactly.

biLL

21 Dec 06 - 12:11 AM (#1915395)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Seamus Kennedy

How about something like stopping in the middle of your songs while they are talking, and staring at them.
When they look up to see why you've stopped, simply say "If you'll be quiet during my songs, I promise I'll be quiet during yours."

Of course, I'm a full time professional entertainer with over 30 years of performing under my belt, so I'd probably humiliate the bastard before telling him to shut the fuck up or get out. Nicely.

Seamus

21 Dec 06 - 05:56 AM (#1915525)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

AA, it's all very well to stop attending, but why should you? It may be that there are limited venues in your area - maybe not in your case, but I'm thinking of others in different parts of the country who may not have much choice, and the decision to stop going along might mean more or less giving up sessions entirely. I certainly would not want to stop attending the sessions and clubs I go to regularly, as I would have to travel a lot further afield to find other ones.

It sounds as if the session organiser has an equivocal relationship with the 'local' (this is the major PITA if I understand correctly) - unless I've misunderstood you, the organiser tries to put off the PITA from attending, as he knows it stops others from coming, yet he plays in a band with him. It sounds as if he is not functioning properly as an organiser, as he seems to be letting the fact that the PITA is a bandmate prevent him from telling him how to behave at these sessions. (Ooerr! I also play in a band with the organiser of my local folk club... it couldn't be, could it?! But then I don't talk over people so I guess I'm in the clear!)

Maybe you should try to have a word with the organiser, explaining that you are personally aware that some people have stopped attending because of the PITA's attitude, and something needs to be said to him. The organiser must grasp that nettle, even if he does play in a band with the guy.

It sounds as if you're not alone in disliking the PITA's attitude, so maybe you need to get together with other like-minded people there and organise a campaign along the lines already outlined - talking over him while performing, etc. It would be sad if it came to that, so it would be better if you could get the organiser to resolve it first, if this is at all possible.

You could suggest that the organiser makes a general announcement at the start of the next session (if done early in 2007 it could be a 'new year resolution' for the session) to the effect that attendees are expected to keep quiet during performances out of respect for the performers. This could then be done without making it obvious he is 'getting at' the PITA personally. Then of course if the PITA persists with his antisocial behaviour, the organiser would be able to remind him how he is expected to behave.

If it doesn't work then put Plan B into operation (retaliation by talking over him), and failing that, a kick in the b******s usually gets the desired results.

21 Dec 06 - 06:30 AM (#1915558)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Yeah Scrump (and others)
All good ideas but as has been picked up by yourselves, the organiser is very weak. Most of us think he would like an excuse to wrap up this venue as he arrives later and later every week hoping someone else has already kicked the evening off. I have done so a few times but most of us have other committments so do not want to 'take over' the running of this event. This may seem like a get-out to some of you but over the years I have run and assisted in the running of around five 'clubs' and now I want to be free to go where I want and not be tied. I appreciate the time and dedication it needs to run any function on a regular basis so do not want to criticise the organiser too much.
As I stated before, I have thought about talking over him but too many years of giving 'order' is now a habit hard to break.
Incidently, he has been challenged many time in the past and just treats it as a joke until someone talks whilst he is performing! He'll stop attending for two weeks and then turns up again as bad as before.
We'll see what the New Year brings.
Thanks all and Merry Xmas - may you all get the respect you deserve!

21 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM (#1915561)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

I'm assuming the last GUEST is AA? If so, and you have enough other places to go in your area, then fine. Voting with your feet might just be the best way.

Season's Greetings to you too and all the best for 2007! Let's hope your club will be PITA free.

21 Dec 06 - 09:18 AM (#1915666)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

AA - if talking over him stops him attending for a couple of weeks just keep doing it. Maybe then he'll get the message. If you can get others involved as well that would reinforce the 'we don't like your behaviour - go away'!

21 Dec 06 - 10:10 AM (#1915725)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Yeah Scrump that Guest was me - sorry, forgot to put name on.

All the best folks - must go now to prepare family shopping trips etc.

21 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM (#1915756)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,fluiuteadoir

but enough about you Northern hemisphere aggrandists, let's talk about me !!

Or at least our session here in Brisbane. yes, the Queensland Irish Association, Wednesday nights. As the foundation irish instituion in these sub-tropical parts, do they turn off the footie, baseball, Monster truck races ? of course not that would offend the punters.

so last night in a porter fog I dared the barman Leo ( good man , leo, free pints to meself, and a ready smile, unlike the other automatons who haven't a clue about session bonhomie and joie de vivre - I dared leo to turn the teev off. God he just walked over and killed it. Oh i cheered. For 2 years since the inception of the session, everyone had been too shit-scared to even think of suggesting this, but it was so easy in the end

22 Dec 06 - 06:43 AM (#1916549)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Greetings down under.

You should get yourself over here and show AA how it's done.

Seasons Greetings from the Ould Country.

22 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM (#1916563)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Guest - No problem with a TV!

You seem to have a problem with memory (or civility).

Maybe you sit in front of your PC too much and have forgotten how to interact with people!

To all others on this thread (and Guest) MERRY CHRISTMAS.LOL

22 Dec 06 - 08:37 AM (#1916624)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Scrump

Yes, it's a bit easier to switch off a telly than a loud-mouthed arrogant gobshite, without of course breaking the law by whacking him over the head with a heavy implement.

22 Dec 06 - 11:55 AM (#1916809)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Anti Arrogance

Scrump - thanks a lot!
Today I took your last advice and hit him with a friends Telecaster. I am now in the local nick awaitimg manslaughter charges. My ex-telecaster owning friend is sueing me for a new guitar and stress for losing his treasured 1969 'axe'. My wife and kids have moved out in case my rage manifests itself in the home.
They say I may be out to celebrate New Year - 2020.
L.O.L.

Cheers everyone and I hope you are all 'out' for New Year 2006/7

22 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM (#1917092)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: The Fooles Troupe

GUEST,Anti Arrogance

"I am pretty well known in my area and am asked to attend every folk club around. I try to support each one as I get time. The two newcomers are good musicians (I actually love their music) but unknown in this area."

Why not suggest to these guys that this is not the only session in the world... :-)

Re:
jacqui.c Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM above...

Sigh!....

02 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM (#1925087)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

It just crossed my mind that I should have mentioned the situation that I was talking about when I said people who are so needy that they have to play where they are not respected.
Many years ago a young man asked me if it would be a good idea if he should ask the restaurant owner to let him play there, and to OFFER TO PAY HIM FOR THE PRIVILEGE! That was what I meant by pathetic. It was not about you know who, but he thought it was.

02 Jan 07 - 09:20 PM (#1925277)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge

Anti-arrogance, that was not manslaughter, but pesticide!

02 Jan 07 - 11:32 PM (#1925347)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

I'd really rather play for free.

03 Jan 07 - 05:28 AM (#1925454)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: stallion

Steve Thompson (Ex Buttermountain Boys) tells a great tale of the Wilson's looking for a bar to sing in during one Cleethorpes folk festival, all the regular pubs being heaving, went into a "Fishermans bar", sat the largest of them on the Juke box and started singing, I think Steve said no one tried to put money in the Juke box.

03 Jan 07 - 06:47 AM (#1925491)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,sessionwatch

Imagine if all of those who walked out of a session got together and started a session of their own. How long would it be before someone decided that it wasn't being conducted along the lines that they thought it should and ..........walked out?

03 Jan 07 - 07:53 AM (#1925528)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

Guest, I agree. I'd much rather play for free. No pressure.

04 Jan 07 - 07:17 AM (#1926322)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

Bit sad that this has been a bone of contention - I've just skimmed through the whole thread, having come across the crackdown thread. And really we're all on the side of the angels. We all play music.

Some people are lucky enough to be acknowledged as masters of their art and whenever they start singing they attract an uncritical, adoring, fee paying audience.

Now some of us have decided making what we're going to do to make money. we say to ourselves, a load of noisy fools isn't going to decide my career choice, and I will do the gig make the money - buy the guitar that I want - and a certain percentage of my gigs will be like that. I lived my professional life like that - and it sounds as though Clinton still does.

I used to envy the guys who get the nice polite audiences. the really successful ones like Ralph McTell and Martin Carthy make a lot more money than I ever did - even in the year I had a hit record.

However in time I got to see that I was the lucky one. I met real people and played real folk music. I got to see that songs like Tie a Yellow Ribbon are indeed folksongs. they have a place in the hearts and minds of the people in the way that tales of the press gang and the cannonball don't. look how the yellow ribbons come out when there is national hostage situation. Look how many people there are confined in our penal system who have this song played when they are reunited with loved ones.

But if you do these gigs - being sneered at, goes with territory. Perhaps Clinton had a right not to encounter it on Mudcat, but he's old enough to know that its going to be there.

Some people don't make money, they just sing folksongs for fun, and I'm sorry, it sounds like the guy intitiating this thread encountered rudeness in this situation.

There is too much rudeness about. we should all be more caring of the feelings of others

Happy New Year to all

Big Al Whittle

04 Jan 07 - 11:50 AM (#1926498)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

We all have opinions. One of mine is, Tie a yellow ribbon is not a folk song. And I have never insulted anyone for liking any particular song.

04 Jan 07 - 12:02 PM (#1926505)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

Sadly ... politeness is becoming a 'thing of the past'

and yes Al.. "There is too much rudeness about. we should all be more caring of the feelings of others"

biLL

04 Jan 07 - 03:39 PM (#1926682)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

Its not a case of liking it. I don't like Green Fields of France much, but I recognise it has a lot of deep resonances for some people. And if you don't know - so does Tie a Yellow Ribbon. If you've never done a gig for someone conig out of clink, and you've stayed in the 100 acre wood of the folk clubs , you won't know that.

But pleaese take my word, it is so.

there is a world out there where folksongs have to relate to folks.

04 Jan 07 - 03:50 PM (#1926689)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

Sorry if that last post seems insulting - not meant to. I'm sure what you do kendall is terrific.

its just that the power of simple songs is something very weird.

that Noel Coward line the 'potency of of cheap music'.

sorry about the typos - due to best somerset cider, and good company!

04 Jan 07 - 04:06 PM (#1926696)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

I'm not saying that song has no value, obviously it does. But, in my opinion, it is NOT a folksong.That's all I said, and it started a shit storm.

04 Jan 07 - 04:12 PM (#1926704)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Jim Lad

So, you walked out of the room. Sounds to me like this wasn't a paid gig and the management, who presumably were being paid, were simply acting in the interest of their clientele. So, the next logical step is to come to a financial arrangement.
Just be sure the bartender turns the T.V. off before you pay him though.

04 Jan 07 - 06:00 PM (#1926797)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

no shit storm. I've been around the folkscene long enough to know the score. and to be honest - so has Clinton. he could hardly have been surprised about what you said, so the outrage is a bit drama-queenish.

I don't know his gig, but I can understand some of his annoyance at what some people here have said about showbiz footsoldiers.. it's a strange calling, and we tend to be rather proud of our profession and love swapping war stories with each other.

finding a nice room for folk music is a bit of a nightmare. you find somewhere and the landlord changes and wants you out, but doesn't have the sensitivity to tell you. so he acts like a sod. if you've run one or two folk clubs, you've bought the t-shirt, and in it travelled to hell and back.

also some people are just ignorant. they think live singers are just like the telly, and will continue impervious of whatever nonsense is going on. theres a technical term for these people.......it escapes me at the moment.

04 Jan 07 - 09:20 PM (#1926934)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

On top of that, we performers tend to be somewhat brittle and quick to anger when we are invalidated or insulted. I guess it goes with the territory.

04 Jan 07 - 09:23 PM (#1926938)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Sorcha

We are? We do? It does? Guess I should clue a few of my friends in about that then.

04 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM (#1926972)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

I'm speaking for myself and every other performer I know.

04 Jan 07 - 10:24 PM (#1926976)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Sorcha

We. I. Two different things.

05 Jan 07 - 02:35 AM (#1927084)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

the royal 'we'.....everybody's king for a moment, when they hold the stage.

at my local folk club about six weeks ago, we had a guy absolutely incensed because a mobile phone went off when he was at the climax of a momologue. I mean really angry, we haven't seen him since.

I expect he'll get over it eventually.

Traumatic for him though....sort of audience coitus interruptus.

05 Jan 07 - 03:14 AM (#1927103)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Cadence interruptis?

05 Jan 07 - 03:17 AM (#1927106)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger

Trouble is, with some monologues I dream of a telephone ringing! They are very much an acquired taste and are usually the prompt for me to walk out of a session (quietly and politely of course) and head for the bar. Give me music any day. As I used to tell punters in the days when I got paid for making a public spectacle, "Amazing how cheap potent music is!"

05 Jan 07 - 04:27 AM (#1927131)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Paul Burke

We've come a long way from the original problem. I'm used to Irish sessions- you don't expect the punters to shut up, but if the landlord leaves the jukebox or telly running, it's time to find a new venue. In one recently, the problem wasn't the pub, but the number of dogs in the room, all barking competitively.

Similarly, the local session/ folk club is in the one and only bar in the pub, and can be rowdy. But the non- folkies are often very good, and will shut up if someone's doing a quiet spot. It helps that the landlord is one of us(*). On the other hand, I remember (more than one) folk club accessed by a windy stair through stygian gloom, ending in a cavernous ballroom, hardly heated and with about five people inside. Quiet, but all the excitement of a midnight vigil on a monastic retreat.

(*) WLD- if you fancy a trip out tonight, I'll be there, if affected by drink. Probably won't get Yellow Ribbon, but She Taught Me To Yodel is a distinct possibility.

05 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM (#1927133)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Who holds the record for walking out of the most sessions?

05 Jan 07 - 04:46 AM (#1927136)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

sounds very good!

05 Jan 07 - 04:48 AM (#1927137)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

What? The record?

05 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM (#1927217)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall

A few years ago I went to court and the judge announced, "If you have a cell phone, turn it off now. If it rings during these proceedings you will be held in contempt." nuff said.

05 Jan 07 - 08:22 AM (#1927243)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST

Was that for the criminal record that you made Kendall??

Only joking. Just couldn't resist it.

05 Jan 07 - 08:40 AM (#1927256)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

LOL.

05 Jan 07 - 09:11 AM (#1927283)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

no, the night boozing at Bonsall sounded good. I've had another shit day - looking at my car in a salvage yard after thieves had finished with it.

i've got to admit I did feel a twinge of sympathy for Clinton.

Whether you play the dowie dens of Yarrow, Doh a deer-a female deer, or shove it up your bum as part of circus act - earning a living from the guitar is a tough proposition.

then some guy comes on and tells you you have been wasting your talent on vapid ephemera - I bet he was incandescent with rage. I know I should have been at one point.

still as I say, he has been around the folkscene a long time, so he should be prepared for what some folkies think of us vulgar minstrels. and not descend to rudeness. they know not of what they speak, and its not really their fault.

05 Jan 07 - 09:23 AM (#1927298)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c

WLD - Kendall, as has been explained, was replying to the original poster who was involved in a session, not entertaining for money. In that situation, and given the same provocation, I would do the same thing. We take part in sessions for the love of the music and the pleasure that being part of a group like that brings. There is no pleasure in trying to perform against a backdrop of noise and, for the majority of us, no need to have to put up with it. There are a few who are so desperate to be heard that they will keep going even when it is patently obvious that they are not wanted, as appears to be the case in Shaneo's post. Those are the ones that Kendall was talking about.

Playing for a living is different. One is being paid a fee for doing the job, whether or not the audience is really interested. Kendall was a paid performer, and from what I have heard, a good one and I'm sure that there were occasions when he had to battle the din in one way or another. That's what being professional is all about.

05 Jan 07 - 09:34 AM (#1927310)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Paul Burke

It seems that every time I mention the B word, something terrible happens to WLD. If I say it's only going to be a very little session, maybe something merely dismaying will happen, but I'll keep quiet nonetheless.

jacqui has got it about right- I remember one awful night when some promoter had decided to do a crossover night- avant-garde jazz and Nic Jones (that's how long ago it was). The jazz lot weren't interested and kept on yammering right through his two sets. He wasn't at all happy, but his playing and singing never faltered a bit, and we who were listening crowded close so we could hear. That contrasted with the reverential silence for the obligatory 25 minute drum solo in the jazz bit.

05 Jan 07 - 09:51 AM (#1927325)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh

I'd love to have been in the pub with the dogs all barking.

05 Jan 07 - 12:35 PM (#1927471)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Big Al Whittle

only one terrible thing happened . I got burgled, they stole my car keys and drove my car off.

today I went to the salvage yard and said, can I have a look at my car. he said, sure and ten minutes later dumped it at my feet on a fork lift.

I really liked that car.

I know the situation. One night in Belper last year, this guy was embarking on a long ballad. The barmaid comes up from behind the bar, and starts playing a very noisy fruit machine about two foot way from him.

how we laughed.....

I mean, it does go with the territory just a bit. these experiences are hardly unexpected.

05 Jan 07 - 12:41 PM (#1927476)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: number 6

"Was that for the criminal record that you made Kendall??"

... breach of contract ... not fulfilling an obligatory contract to perform.

just joking ... just trying to add some humour to the situation.

ok ... I'm outta here.

biLL

05 Jan 07 - 03:55 PM (#1927637)
Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Seamus Kennedy

WLD - "or shove it up your bum as part of circus act -"

Oh, you've seen the Aristocrats, then.

Seamus