UK Licensing Act - another petition.

10 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM (#1905451)
Subject: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following was posted on uk.music.folk. See also Affected by the Licensing Act 2003
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps this would be a good moment to instigate a petition on the
prime minister's web site.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/

This feature of the site is currently "in beta", and it's interesting
to see how it's being used. The leading two petitions are way clearly
being co-ordinated by well-organised interest groups, and it would be
difficult (although surely not impossible) to muster that kind of
support.

On the other hand, all the publicity I've seen about the "petitions"
feature makes reference to the success of the petition that the prime
minister should "stand on his head and juggle ice cream". This would
therefore be a very good target to aim for. As I write this, the ice
cream petition has 2095 signatories. Couldn't we get above this?

With this in mind, I've created a petition with the following wording:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to recognise
that music and dance should not be restricted by burdensome
licensing regulations.

The recently introduced changes in licensing law have produced
an environment where music and dance, activities which should
be valued and promoted in a civilised society, are instead
damaged by inappropriate regulation. We call on the Prime
Minister to recognise this situation and take steps to correct
it.

This is currently going being processed by the "team" at Number 10. If
I've understood things correctly, the petition should become available
at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing once they've done whatever it
is they do.

Please support the petition.

--

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam

---

10 Dec 06 - 01:54 PM (#1905476)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The full response to the earlier (and well-supported) petition can be see on the following site.

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page4259.asp

It includes the following undertaking.

We have also given an undertaking that we will review the existing descriptions of entertainment in the Act six to twelve months after the end of the transition period. If the Act has had an unintended, disproportionate negative effect on the provision of live music -or other forms of regulated entertainment-, there are powers already in the Bill to modify the position through secondary legislation.

However we believe that the provisions in the Licensing Act will allow live music and other regulated entertainment to thrive.


Morris dancing and dancing of a similar nature are exempt from the requirement for a licence under the Act.


The Department will also be setting up a forum, comprising representatives of performers, venue operators, local authorities and others whose task it will be to advertise the advantages of the reforms and to maximise the take-up.

---

10 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM (#1905628)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: ET

Good idea although the Govt takes little notice of petitions. Today I was in a Sam Smiths pub as part of a C17 reenactment group. A few of us sang some early caroles and one played a medieaval wooden recorder (very skillfully). Many of the folk in the pub stopped yattering and joined in obviously enjoying it. The landlady ran from downstairs saying we were in breach of the breweries rules about no music so we stopped, to the annoyance of all concerned. Agreed this is the Brewery, not the Government but the pub no longer had a music licence and the ban was just as effective.

---

11 Dec 06 - 12:54 AM (#1906001)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bonecruncher

I understand that Mummer's Plays are also banned unless the premises has a licence specifically for "plays".
Colyn.

---

11 Dec 06 - 02:35 AM (#1906031)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge

Care needs to be taken when phrasing petitions. Music and dance do not always need regulation but sometimes they obviously do. At one extreme lie illegal raves which can keep the population of many square miles awake for days and nights on end, provide a major boost for the local recreational chemical industry, and have thousands doing what bears do in the woods, resulting in a distasteful situation that will remain for a considerable time.    At another point on the envelope lies the huge commercial festival - such as Glastonbury. At another lies outdoor opera - where again the sound can carry for miles and the wealthy patrons believe that local rules need not apply to them. Then of course you have the the contrasts of on the one hand warehouses (adapted or otherwise) thudding to "music of black origin" and the turf wars of rappers, but on the other hand the may dance or genteel tea dance. And naturally at some point you come to "incidental" music in premises that, because they lawfully sell alcohol for consumption on the premises are already substantially regulated, but where some types of music add to disorder (believe me, I live between two pubs - let's face it where people or animals, and sometimes the distinction can be hard to draw, compete for mates there is going to be violence) but some types of music such as unamplified folk music which are going to be inaudible 50 yards away and (apart from people like the loathsome performer on the "musical" saw at last year's Miskin festival) never or virtually never lead to disturbance.

A call for total or almost total deregulation of music and dance lacks any sort of credibility and frankly damages the possibly otherwise attainable causes of "our" lobby.

What could be done is to exempt music performed without electrical amplification, wholly or mainly for the enjoyment of those making it, and to define "incidental" or at least create some presumptions as to the meaning of that word that will give some sensible structure.

---

11 Dec 06 - 05:41 AM (#1906107)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

A call for total or almost total deregulation of music and dance lacks any sort of credibility and frankly damages the possibly otherwise attainable causes of "our" lobby.

I agree but.

I had no part in this petition or its wording but I do not see that it is calling for total deregulation.

All it appears to be asking is that the Govenment ensure that what they themselves have claimed for their Act - as regards music and dancing - is the case in practice.

---

11 Dec 06 - 05:46 AM (#1906112)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST, ...

Perhaps if we could get a few doctors on board, to write prescriptions for us, we could carry on singing and dancing on the National Health.

---

11 Dec 06 - 05:52 AM (#1906117)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Council enforce fee for band playing 'non-religious' Jingle Bells
Daily Mail
- Last updated at 22:00pm on 27th October 2006

Full story here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=413100&in_page_id=1770

---

11 Dec 06 - 05:52 AM (#1906118)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: BanjoRay

Tye petition is so vaguely worded that it can't possibly achieve anything - the government could do what it liked and still say it was carrying out the wishes of the petition.
Ray

---

11 Dec 06 - 05:52 AM (#1906119)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,skipy

See 11
PART 2
EXEMPTIONS
Film exhibitions for the purposes of advertisement, information, education, etc.

5    The provision of entertainment consisting of the exhibition of a film is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act if its sole or main purpose is to-

(a) demonstrate any product,
(b) advertise any goods or services, or
(c) provide information, education or instruction.
Film exhibitions: museums and art galleries

6    The provision of entertainment consisting of the exhibition of a film is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act if it consists of or forms part of an exhibit put on show for any purposes of a museum or art gallery.

Music incidental to certain other activities

7    The provision of entertainment consisting of the performance of live music or the playing of recorded music is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it is incidental to some other activity which is not itself-

(a) a description of entertainment falling within paragraph 2, or
(b) the provision of entertainment facilities.
Use of television or radio receivers

8    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it consists of the simultaneous reception and playing of a programme included in a programme service within the meaning of the Broadcasting Act 1990 (c. 42).

Religious services, places of worship etc.

9    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities-

(a) for the purposes of, or for purposes incidental to, a religious meeting or service, or
(b) at a place of public religious worship,
is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act.

Garden fêtes, etc.

10    (1) The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities at a garden fête, or at a function or event of a similar character, is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act.

      (2) But sub-paragraph (1) does not apply if the fête, function or event is promoted with a view to applying the whole or part of its proceeds for purposes of private gain.

      (3) In sub-paragraph (2) "private gain", in relation to the proceeds of a fête, function or event, is to be construed in accordance with section 22 of the Lotteries and Amusements Act 1976 (c. 32).

Morris dancing etc.

11    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of-

(a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance , or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a).
Vehicles in motion

12    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities-

(a) on premises consisting of or forming part of a vehicle, and
(b) at a time when the vehicle is not permanently or temporarily parked,
is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act.
skipy

---

11 Dec 06 - 06:19 AM (#1906136)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 11th December 2006

600 YEAR OLD WILTSHIRE TRADITION ENDANGERED BY NEW LICENSING LAWS

For details of the above see

Affected by the Licensing Act 2003

---

11 Dec 06 - 07:27 AM (#1906171)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge

Yes skipy but one of the problems is that various councils are making "incidental" mean what they want it to mean, in the best tradition of TweedleDee and TweedleDum. I suggested at the time the Act was passing that definition was needed but would the DCMS listen? Do I need to give you the answer?

---

11 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM (#1906185)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST

Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ?

---

11 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM (#1906192)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: ThreeSheds

No

---

11 Dec 06 - 08:15 AM (#1906216)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge

No, under a conservative conspiracy only the rich have the time and money to sing or dance (or indeed the inclination).

The rest of us need to save up to buy the makings of Molotov cocktails.

---

11 Dec 06 - 09:48 AM (#1906310)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump

We would be much better off with no government - think of the money we'd save.

---

11 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM (#1906424)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge

No, we all need a government to organise the neessary things that we would not find time to organise but need. Whether we need Hobbes Leviathan is another question.

---

11 Dec 06 - 12:09 PM (#1906452)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,skipy

Imagination is "nothing but decaying sense" and is the same as Memory).
Hobbes
(Skipy)

---

12 Dec 06 - 08:18 PM (#1907946)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The petition is now ready to be signed - on the following site.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

When i looked - there were 14 signatures........

---

13 Dec 06 - 06:12 AM (#1908233)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

There are now 44.

---

13 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM (#1908688)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Now there are 243 - is your name there yet?

---

13 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM (#1908723)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis

yes

---

13 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM (#1908781)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Barden of England

Mine is too

---

13 Dec 06 - 05:42 PM (#1908797)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Rasener

Hey Shambles, didn't realise you lived in Amsterdam. My wife is an Amsterdamse.

---

13 Dec 06 - 05:50 PM (#1908801)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

I live in Amsterdam?

It is Dominic Cronin (who started this petition) who lives in Amsterdam.

---

13 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM (#1908804)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Rasener

I have seen that.

I am on the list now. Good to see Pete Coe and Sue Coe are on there.

We came over this year and my children enjoyed Amsterdam very much.

Coming back in August 2007.

What a wonderful time I had over there, I Lived there for 13 years.

Les Worrall

---

13 Dec 06 - 06:28 PM (#1908840)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge

I am sorry, but I cannot sign it. I live between two pubs and the electric music and dance they have (often outwith their licence terms, about which the LA does squat) makes my life and the life of many in the village a misery.

---

14 Dec 06 - 09:18 AM (#1909386)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Penny Black

We have signed and can see no down side to signing a petition basically asking for further thought as to the adverse effects of the licencing law... after all this is what we all kept shouting about.

Misuse by LAs and lack of implementation of current laws being abused, to the disturbance of other, really isn't the problem

The problem is that the new licence has caused sessions, dance events etc to be cancelled - when there was no real need and it has taken away the God given right to make music and dance.

We were promised that the license would be re-looked at, and that is all the petition is asking for, let them know there have been problems and WE the people are not happy with it as it stands it's time for a change!

PB
singing as long as the fridge door is open

To help promote and bring the Petition to more eyes, a flckr website has been set up at http://www.flickr.com/groups/keepmusiclive/

---

14 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM (#1909465)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge

It looks as if the Ship has gone tits up again....

---

14 Dec 06 - 11:27 AM (#1909483)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Thank you Penny - if everyone can just circulate the link - I am sure that we can obtain more than the current 611 names.

---

14 Dec 06 - 09:35 PM (#1909900)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge

Hmm. Still less popular so far than legalising cannabis or stopping the persecution of smokers.

---

15 Dec 06 - 09:46 AM (#1910222)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following from Hamish Birchall.

BBC Radio 4 Today wants to know what law you think should be scrapped:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/vote/2006vote/

It asks you to be specific. Most of the Licensing Act 2003 is about regulating the sale of alcohol. You might want the whole Act scrapped - but you may want to focus on the live music provisions, most of which are set out in Schedule 1, which describes 'regulated entertainment':
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2003/30017--k.htm#sch1

The main injustice, for me at least, remains the inexplicable inequality of treatment of live and canned entertainment in the context of the crime/disorder/safety/noise rationale of the Act.

Anyone organising even the mildest live music without a licence under the Act could face criminal prosecution - but no such licence is required if providing big screen sport or music in a crowded bar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Live music e-petition well into top 50
Signatures are rising at a rate of knots. As I write, the number of signatures is passing 900, and the petition is now at number 35 in the list of over 1,100 petitions on the Number 10 website: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Live music penalties - comparison with other offences - correction
A lawyer told me yesterday that some of the offences I listed in my circular urging people to sign the e-petition do in fact carry greater maximum penalties than the maximum penalty under the Licensing Act (a £20,000 fine and six months in prison). I am now seeking clarification from the lawyer who first provided me with that list in response to this question:

'Under the Act, the maximum penalty for anyone found guilty of providing unlicensed live music where a licence is required is £20,000 and six months in prison. Would you mind listing a few other crimes which would be generally perceived as far worse, but for which the penalties are not as severe?'

I will circulate an update on this as soon as I have clarified the position. In the meantime, my apologies for any inaccuracies in that first list and if it was in any way misleading.

However, it does not change the position for the unlicensed provision of live music. Where a licence is required, under the Licensing Act the maximum penalty is a £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

---

15 Dec 06 - 11:34 AM (#1910299)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Penny Black

Myspace Petition Link

Getting MySpace users onboard - those who have Myspace sites and agree with signing the petition please feel free to link to the above site.

1,119 as I write!

PB

---

16 Dec 06 - 02:54 PM (#1911191)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,has Signed

Refresh at 1419 signatures

---

17 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM (#1911876)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,FFF-Live

Signatures: 1537 A long way to go!

---

17 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM (#1912136)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

From the petition site.

You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition.

---

18 Dec 06 - 07:33 AM (#1912503)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

1651

---

18 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM (#1912774)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,1774

just saw current signatures stand at 1774

for interest, the music references for the year 1774:-

Events

    * Antonio Salieri is appointed court composer to the Emperor Joseph II.
    * Domenico Cimarosa is invited to Rome for the opera season.
    * Charles Burney writes A Plan for a Music School.

Opera

    * Pasquale Anfossi - La finta giardiniera; Olimpiade
    * Christoph Willibald Gluck - Iphigenie en Aulide

Classical music

    * Great Organ Mass by Joseph Haydn
    * Concerto for Viola no 1 in D major by Carl Stamitz

Births

    * January 24 - Karl Moser, composer
    * February 16 - Pierre Rode, violinist, composer, (d. 1830)
    * March 5 - Christoph Ernst Friedrich Weyse, composer
    * April 17 - Václav Jan Křtitel Tomášek, organist and composer
    * October 7 - Ferdinando Orlandi, composer
    * November 14 - Gaspare Spontini, composer
    * November 18 - William Horsley, composer
    * December 20 - Guillaume-Perre-Antoine Gatayes, composer

Deaths

    * January 20 - Florian Leopold Gassmann, composer
    * January 30 - Frantisek Ignac Antonin Tuma and Jean-Pierre Guignon, composers
    * July 7 - Giuseppi Maria Carretti, composer
    * August 25 - Niccolò Jommelli, composer
    * December 2 - Johann Friedrich Agricola, composer
    * date unknown - František Tůma, organist and composer
    * date unknown - Vodicka Vaclav

---

18 Dec 06 - 01:47 PM (#1912831)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

1762 is the number that I see.

What petition are you looking at?

It is amazing how many composers are born and die - without me even hearing their names other than on such lists - let alone hearing any of their compositions.

---

18 Dec 06 - 03:50 PM (#1912933)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,numerically dyslexic

ooooooooopppsss!!!

---

18 Dec 06 - 08:46 PM (#1913184)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

It is now 1814.

---

19 Dec 06 - 06:23 AM (#1913428)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following from Hamish Birchall.

David Cronin's online licensing/live music petition has about 1,840 signatures and currently stands at no. 21 in the list of 1,182 petitions on the Number 10 website. Not bad for just under a week.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

However, it still lags behind a petition calling on the prime minister to stand on his head and juggle ice cream.

Of course, if the prime minister were talented enough to stand on his head and juggle ice cream, and if his performance took place indoors, this would be potentially licensable under the new Licensing Act.

The activity would fall within the meaning an 'indoor sporting event' as defined in Schedule 1, para 16(2): '..."Sporting event" means any contest, exhibition or display of any sport, and "sport" includes... (b) any form of physical recreation which is also engaged in for purposes of competition or display'.

ENDS

---

19 Dec 06 - 02:16 PM (#1913906)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Juggler

over 2000 now -

surely Juggling indoors or outdoors would fall foul of requiring a licence?

---

20 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM (#1914652)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

2097.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

---

22 Dec 06 - 08:43 AM (#1916629)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Penny Black

Myspace site going strong - with a lot of positive responses and sign-ups.

My Space Link

Why not add the Petition Link to any email Greeting you send out this year (to UK Residents)

Merry Christmas everyone!

Penny Black

---

22 Dec 06 - 09:13 AM (#1916652)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

2299.

---

22 Dec 06 - 08:33 PM (#1917144)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following was posted on uk.music.folk

The petition is to be found at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

The petition has now officially gone mainstream. By that, I mean that
there are more signatories than the journalists-favourite, the Ice
cream juggling petition (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/juggle/)

Not only that, but we're in the top twenty (No. 19 at the last count,
with 2324 signatures)

This makes it one of the fastest moving e-petitions since the PM's
site started having them. Let's hope the prime minister recognises
that this represents a groundswell of grass-roots opinion (I don't
actually speak "politician", but you know what I mean)

So where do we go from here? The top few petitions are plainly run by
well-orchestrated campaigns, with signatories in the tens of
thousands. Should we aim for that? The paper petition had that kind of
support, so it's not so crazy.

I've started to put some thoughts on the subject down at

http://www.cronin.co.uk/licensing

If you go there, you'll realise that I need help. Does anyone have a
succinct text that describes the key issues in the space of one web
page?

Basically I'm a bit caught out by the success of the thing, and it
would be a shame to waste the opportunity. Good solid copy would
definitely be welcome. PR, editorial skills, graphics, you name it. If
anyone would like to help, please mail me.

Thanks for the support.

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam

---

29 Dec 06 - 01:26 AM (#1921104)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following was posted on uk.music.folk by Graham Dixon.


Well done Dominic 2439 is a marvellous total for such a short time.

However (IMHO) it's not enough to make a difference YET.

We need to count on musicians from other genres to boost the total.

If you have any frieinds/colleagues who play;-
Country/Jazz/Rock/Pop/Soul/Indie/Brass/Barbers-shop/Classical etc etc.
Or if you visit any other music forums

Please ask them to visit http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/ and sign
this important petition.

The recently introduced changes in licensing law have produced an
environment where music and dance, activities which should be valued
and promoted in a civilised society, are instead damaged by
inappropriate regulation. We call on the Prime Minister to recognise
this situation and take steps to correct it.
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to recognise that music
and dance should not be restricted by burdensome licensing regulations.


KEEP MUSIC LIVE

---

01 Jan 07 - 12:03 PM (#1924035)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

2543.

Now Christmas and New Year are over perhaps we can all work to ensure that this petition is as well-supported as the previous one was?

---

01 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM (#1924106)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: mandotim

Bernard Wrigley on there...and me!
Tim

---

02 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM (#1924719)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,FFF-Live Myspace

FFF-Live on Myspace is going strong with over 250 groups and solo artistes on board and spreading the word.

Mainly Traditional Music but a few other genres getting involved now.

The petition needs a lot more pushing if it is to match the previous one!


FFF=Live Crew

---

03 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM (#1925678)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

2618.

---

08 Jan 07 - 05:57 AM (#1930019)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

2714

---

11 Jan 07 - 06:44 AM (#1933084)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following from Hamish Birchall.

Please circulate

The live music/licensing e-petition now has nearly 2,800 signatures. It currently stands at no.19 in the list of 1,702 petitions on the Number 10 website: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

This is good, especially in just under a month - and there are five more months in which people can sign. But the petition needs to do much better to make an impression on ministers, and to encourage DCMS to implement music-friendly amendments.

The petition is for everyone, not just musicians. Please consider signing if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new legislation:

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence (although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles). Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.
But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt - no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two musicians was abolished.
For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are licensable.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

In December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm

---

11 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM (#1933255)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Guest

"Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ? "

Oh dear!

---

11 Jan 07 - 09:47 AM (#1933270)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump

Is that last Guest a Mr Blair by any chance?

---

11 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM (#1933391)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Barden of England

Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ?


I thought we already had one

---

25 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM (#1947632)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

3902.

---

27 Jan 07 - 05:11 AM (#1949420)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: SylviaN

Now 4429

---

29 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM (#1951266)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts

The original petition handed in to Number 10 prior to the PEL becoming law had over 110,000 signatures on it and made no difference.
There is a noticeable absence on the list at present of the big names in folk music ie Billy Bragg, the Carthy family and many more. Which leads me to ask, is this petition being given enough of a high level profile?
This new petition has a very long way to go.

29/01/07 - 5,255

Mikk

---

29 Jan 07 - 11:46 AM (#1951304)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Cath

I don't know whether Holmfirth is an exception but when I walked through the town last Thursday to the Open Mic session at Bistro Number 11 I couldn't help notice a large board outside Carniceria advertising weekly live music gigs, I called at Y Bar and was told about forthcoming gigs, Harrows have weekly events and the Picturedrome has gigs almost every week.
Now I'm not trying to advertise the hostelries of Holmfirth but any change in the licensing regulations seem to have had the opposite effect here and when it comes to the Festival of Folk in May all but one pub will have music going on.
I'm sure some luminary on this newsgroup will have an explanation for why it doesn't seem to be a problem here but it is elsewhere!

---

30 Jan 07 - 06:07 AM (#1952160)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Now I'm not trying to advertise the hostelries of Holmfirth but any change in the licensing regulations seem to have had the opposite effect here and when it comes to the Festival of Folk in May all but one pub will have music going on.

The situation before was that although only 5% of available premises were licensed for live music - that some form of live music could still take place in the remaining 95%.

Across the land now, the evidence seems to suggest that as a result of the change - around 40% of available premises are now not able host any performance of live music at all.

---

30 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM (#1952384)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts

Which is more reason for making this petition even higher profile. I only came across it on Mudcat. None of the main radio folk presenters are on it Mike Harding, Frank Hennessy, Mick Peat, Lester Simpson

I have attached the link to the bottom all all emails I send out now

Mikk

---

30 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM (#1952405)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bernard

My name's on it...

---

30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM (#1952431)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts

and mine..

---

30 Jan 07 - 11:06 AM (#1952457)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Which is more reason for making this petition even higher profile.

And of course the fact that the live music that is permitted - is only taking place - subject to many conditions.

And although the imposition standard or 'blanket' conditions on live music are supposed to have died with the old legislation - most local authorities appear to require the installation of noise-limiters for every application for live music.

---

30 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM (#1952508)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bernard

Hah! So often I've played at ceilidhs where the 'traffic light' system is tripped when people are clapping as the top couple dances down the set...!!

---

30 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM (#1952574)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Blindlemonsteve

Hi All
This licensing law act is a farce, i live in Spain, there probably is some regulation, but no one would ever take any notice of it, i could take my guitar down the local bar, play for as long as i like, and when the local policeman has finished his Brandy and polished his gun, he would probably join in with his harmonica. but if you sold alcohol to kids it would be a problem....isnt that the way it should be.....Thank god i dont live there anymore....

---

30 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM (#1952616)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: bubblyrat

Where is the great British disdain for petty bureaucracy ?? Bugger the government & their stupid,killjoy,rules & regulations. Petitions ?? Forget "em !! Find a suitably bloody-minded landlord, & just get on with playing & singing as usual !! If the police decide to act,and send in the SAS with tear-gas, then it will just add to the public perception of this bunch of wanquers as the worst government we have ever had. If they REALLY can"t find any issues more worthy of their attention,then they deserve to be overthrown, by force if necessary. I LOVE my country DEARLY ,and I cannot STAND to see it in such chaos and disarray .Give me the leader ,& I will follow!!

---

30 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM (#1952766)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: lilly

Pub in my hometown seems to be letting folkies play and sod the bits of paper!! No one has complained, even the local bobby has been in to listen! Just get on with the music.

---

31 Jan 07 - 03:29 PM (#1953825)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Herga Kitty

I signed a while ago, but received an e-mail today forwarded (by another former Flower of May), from Doug Bailey and Dave Hunt which indicated that the Licensing Act petition had made it up to 17th position, with over 4,000 signatures. Of course the petition against road pricing has over 100 times as many signatures.

Kitty

---

01 Feb 07 - 02:52 AM (#1954271)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

6581

---

01 Feb 07 - 02:59 AM (#1954275)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles


The original petition handed in to Number 10 prior to the PEL becoming law had over 110,000 signatures on it and made no difference.

Well it is difficult to prove such a thing - I suggest that without that petition the Act would have been even worse.

See http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page4259.asp for Number Ten Downing Street's
full response to the E Petition.

Which includes the following.

We believe that the Act will make it simpler and more affordable than now to stage live entertainment in the vast majority of cases and increase opportunities for musicians and other artists to perform

We have also given an undertaking that we will review the existing descriptions of entertainment in the Act six to twelve months after the end of the transition period. If the Act has had an unintended, disproportionate negative effect on the provision of live music -or other forms of regulated entertainment-, there are powers already in the Bill to modify the position through secondary legislation. However we believe that the provisions in the Licensing Act will allow live music and other regulated entertainment to thrive.

---

02 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM (#1955471)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following from Hamish Birchall

Please circulate

More than 6,680 people have now signed the licensing/live music e-petition on the Number 10 site:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

As a result the petition has reached number 13 in the list of over 2,500 on this site. By the end of this month it should be well within the top 10.

But many more signatures are needed to attract national media attention, and to encourage the government to make music-friendly changes to the legislation: the Licensing Act 2003.

Please consider signing if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new law:

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence (although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles). Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.

But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime in 2005, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two live musicians was abolished.

For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are licensable.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

Last December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm

---

02 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM (#1955480)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

'My view is that there will be an explosion in live music as a result of removing the discriminatory two-in-a-bar provision'
(Lord McIntosh, House of Lords, 26 November 2002).

---

04 Feb 07 - 05:25 PM (#1957760)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following was posted on uk.music folk.

When I visited http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing today, the
petition was at 12th place with 7662 signatures. It seems likely to be
in the top ten soon. This is very good news, and I would like to thank
everyone who has signed or made it their business to publicise the
petition. Please keep up the good work.

If you visit http://www.cronin.co.uk/licensing you will find that you can download a flyer explaining the issues and asking for support. If
any of you are able to print this out and display it somewhere useful,
I would very much appreciate it.

I would also like to gather some information about the sessions and
folk clubs which have been closed down as a result of the Licensing
Act. My intention is to list these on the web site, so obviously it's
important to be able to show a reasonably plausible link between the
closure and the act. If you can help with such information, please
send an email to [e-mail] (There are some pretty
aggressive spam filters in place, so if you don't get an
acknowledgement within a few days, please try again with less
references to rolexes and viagra.)

Thanks again.

--

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam

---

06 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM (#1959147)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The petition gets a good write up here.

Todays Times - Article on Music Licensing

---

06 Feb 07 - 11:47 AM (#1959149)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

8,307

---

08 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM (#1961383)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

9,407

---

08 Feb 07 - 04:53 PM (#1961638)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Jim McLean

Hi The Shamble,
I read the article in the Times and have no problems with Gordon Brown singing The Ballad of Glencoe (or as I initially called it, The Massacre of Glencoe) but I doubt he's more inclined to sing 'Come awa' England)!

---

09 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM (#1962504)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: ossonflags

See also bev - sun its on there

---

10 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM (#1963306)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

10,402

---

12 Feb 07 - 02:00 AM (#1964588)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

10,944

---

12 Feb 07 - 04:44 PM (#1965246)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Dominic Cronin

Dear all,

Thanks for the support for the petition.

I know some people think it's too inclusive, but let's get one thing straight right now. The law already had ample provision for dealing with nuisance. Any suggestions of that being the intention were simply smoke and mirrors.

Personally, I fully support people's right to have raves, classical concerts, whatever. (Of course, if they infringe on other people's quiet enjoyment of their homes, then the environmental health officers from the council can do their bit.)

Support for the petition is also coming from outside the world of folk music.

http://www.cronin.co.uk/licensing

---

13 Feb 07 - 05:11 AM (#1965756)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following from Hamish Birchall

Please circulate

Over 11,400 people have signed the live music/licensing petition on the Number 10 website. At the time of writing it stands at number 8 in the list of nearly 3,000 petitions and is likely to climb higher today:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

The petition was backed by Libby Purves in The Times on 6 February:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk:80/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article1336496.ece

In the last few days the Number 10 petition website has attracted widespread media coverage due to the petition opposing the government's road pricing proposals . See today's online Guardian, for example: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2011954,00.html

Ministers, and some in the press, have cast doubt on the value of such petitions. But one thing is clear: a successful petition does raise public and media awareness about an issue, making it more difficult for politicians to ignore.

In the next few weeks, the Live Music Forum will present its recommendations for improvement of the Licensing Act to ministers.

Please consider signing the petition if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new law:

For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are illegal unless licensed.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence - although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles. Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.
But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime in 2005, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two live musicians was abolished.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

Last December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm

---

15 Feb 07 - 09:38 AM (#1968551)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis

I have now tried every day for the last ten days to sign this and so far have not received the e-mail needed to confirm the signature. This could mean that the number of people signing is a lot higher than the numbers on the petition would indicate.

---

15 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM (#1968599)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

That is now showing at 13,076.

Let us know when they send out your Email.

---

15 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM (#1968610)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump

Re. the confirmatory emails: I got mine but Mrs Scrump didn't get hers, even though she has the same domain name/server as mine. I wonder if the site isn't sending all the emails out, or whether it does a check on the IP address or something? That means people using the same computer to vote might not be able to, and the number of votes could be smaller than it should be.

---

15 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM (#1968658)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis

According to their FAQs they only allow one signature from each computer to stop people inputting multiple signatures. This is because it is too easy to get loads of e-mail addys now.
So one of you will have to sign from somewhere else.

---

15 Feb 07 - 08:17 PM (#1969179)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Tootler

I had to try twice. The first time I got no confirmatory email, but the second time, several days later I did.

---

16 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM (#1969552)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump

So it means only one person can vote per household in most cases, then. The system is badly flawed.

---

16 Feb 07 - 09:00 AM (#1969702)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis

Just got a confirmatory e-mail on the 12th try. I put in a non-Hotmail address and it went through immediately.

---

16 Feb 07 - 11:31 AM (#1969840)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

13,876

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

So if it is only one signature per houshold - do we just double the figure?

---

16 Feb 07 - 11:35 AM (#1969846)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump

Yes, I would think so! Might be worth bearing this stupid rule in mind for future petitions.

---

16 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM (#1969856)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis

My house has a LAN fitted and my son has managed to sign the same petition as me from a different computer but via the same router. So it obviously is not the same house that's the problem maybe it is the same computer that is the problem. In which case all you need to do is borrow a laptop and sign via that. Is there a techie out there who knows what the petition site can 'see' and therefore control when you vote.

---

19 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM (#1972467)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

15,871

---

19 Feb 07 - 10:15 AM (#1972480)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump

Yes, but I would guess that many people only have one PC in the house. And if you borrow a laptop that might stop its owner using it to sign the petition.

They should check a combination of name, email address and PC IP no. or something, and only disallow the vote if they are all the same as one already received. At the moment, it seems they only check the IP address (I think, anyway), because my wife's email address, and (perhaps obviously!) name, are different from mine. So it must be based on using the same computer only.

---

21 Feb 07 - 01:52 AM (#1974549)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Is everyone who signed this petition also going to get an emailed reply from our Prime Minister?

---

21 Feb 07 - 01:53 AM (#1974550)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Barry Finn

100!

---

21 Feb 07 - 01:55 AM (#1974552)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/18/nblairmail118.xml

---

21 Feb 07 - 04:57 AM (#1974629)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

17,633

---

21 Feb 07 - 05:04 AM (#1974639)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump

Quote from the above Telegraph article:

The Transport Secretary, Douglas Alexander, has accused its organisers of spreading "myths" and pledged to press ahead with plans to pilot the scheme.

I don't understand how they can pilot the scheme, without forcing a subset of motorists to install the GPS equipment in their cars. Who in their right minds would volunteer to take part?

(btw, "myths" = "what will happen if this becomes law" - just like the "myths" people 'spread' about the Licencing Bill, before that became law)

---

21 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM (#1975314)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Tootler

"According to their FAQs they only allow one signature from each computer to stop people inputting multiple signatures. This is because it is too easy to get loads of e-mail addys now."

Yet myself, my wife and my daughter all successfully signed the road pricing petition on the same computer as we currently only have one computer connected to the internet.

So it seems their checking is a little haphazard to say the least.

---

27 Feb 07 - 04:49 AM (#1980577)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

26,510

---

03 Mar 07 - 06:45 AM (#1984754)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

35,328

---

03 Mar 07 - 06:46 AM (#1984756)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

---

06 Mar 07 - 06:48 PM (#1988782)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

41,696

---

06 Mar 07 - 07:22 PM (#1988833)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The following from Hamish Birchall

More than 40,000 have signed the live music/licensing petition which currently stands at no.4 in the list of over 4,200 petitions on the Number 10 site:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/list/open?sort=signers (to view petitions in order of signatures)
a href=http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/(to sign)

The petition was mentioned yesterday in the Commons during a short exchange between the licensing minister, Shaun Woodward, and MPs Malcolm Moss and Anne Milton (shadow culture minister). See Hansard extract below.

Note that Mr Woodward did not answer Malcolm Moss's question about the validity of the '60% of smaller venues licensed for live music' claim recently made by DCMS.

Woodward also rather misleadingly suggests that getting a licence for live music is a simple one-off process. It is a one-off process only for new applications seeking a permanent authorisation. Whether this is simple or not largely depends on whether there are any objections.

For those venues with a premises licence without a live music authorisation (at least 40%), another application ('variation') is required, plus the full premises licence fee, public advertisement costs and possible knock-on costs if objections lead to a public hearing. Annual 'inspection' fees remain, of course, albeit at a reduced level.

Places without a premises licence, but still requiring a live music authorisation, must apply for a Temporary Events Notice (up to 12 permitted per premises per year), £21 a time.

Note also that despite the latest MORI research, the minister is careful to refer to the evidence of the Act's impact as 'anecdotal'. Could he be refering to the latest Musician's Union survey?

~ ~ ~
House of Commons Monday 05 March 2007 - Oral Questions:

Licensing Act
8. Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire) (Con): What assessment she [Tessa Jowell] has made of the effect of the provisions of the Licensing Act 2003 on the performance of live music. [124568]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr. Shaun Woodward): The live music forum will produce its analysis in the next few weeks. Current evidence is anecdotal, but it none the less suggests a broadly neutral impact.

Mr. Moss: According to the MORI research commissioned by the Minister's Department, only 60 per cent. of smaller venues that previously offered live music were given licences under the LicensingAct 2003, many of which have expensive conditions attached. Will the Minister tell the House what proportion of that group implemented the conditions? If he cannot do so, does that not render the statistics worthless, and what is the value of the Department's boast that the Act is good for live music?

Mr. Woodward: As the hon. Gentleman knows—he takes a keen interest in this area, which we welcome—the research published in December looked at 2,000 small establishments. It discovered that in only 3 per cent. of cases the new licensing requirements were a deterrent. From the anecdotal evidence, however, the impact appears to be broadly neutral, although it may be better than that. The hon. Gentleman will know that we are conducting a detailed analysis, which we will publish later. He should remember that the new process means that there is only one application, one fee and no renewals. The additional bonus is that local residents, who were seriously affected in the past by live music, now have a say, which is important.

Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): I wonder whether the Minister is aware that over 38,000 people have signed the Downing street petition on live music. What comfort can he give that ever-growing body of people? Does he agree with the person who was recently reported in the press as saying that whoever dreamtup Downing street petitions was—and I quote with apologies, Mr. Speaker—"a prat"?

Mr. Woodward: We absolutely agree with the 30,000 people who rightly do not want music and dance to be restricted by burdensome licensing regulations. If the hon. Lady looks at the changes, she will see that there is one application process and one fee, with no renewals. Inconsistent fees, which were often excessive, and the standard book of conditions have been removed, and the fact that 63 per cent. of venues have either obtained a music licence or put on live music via other means shows that the Act is working. In a survey, 55 per cent. of people said that they found the process easy, although I admit that 25 per cent. found it hard. We will work to improve the system—we believe that it has already been improved—and we will take very seriously the evidence submitted in the next few weeks to see whether there are more improvements to be made.

---

07 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM (#1990027)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bainbo

I have my doubts about how effective these petitions are going to be. At the moment, I notice there are two concurrent petitions calling for the road pricing plan to be scrapped, and another calling for it not to be scrapped; there's one calling for the national anthem to be replaced with "Gold" by Spandau Ballet (5,546 signatures); and among the signatories to one calling for Ashley Hutchings to be knighted are one or two familiar names, but also "Matthew Groves" and "G R Esford Di Saster." Yeah, that one's gonna be taken seriously.

Still, if it raises the issue's profile, I suppose there's no actual harm in signing it. Apart from letting the Government have my name, addres and email. Which they probably have, already.

Yes, I'll sign.

---

09 Mar 07 - 08:10 AM (#1991344)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

46,351

---

09 Mar 07 - 08:35 AM (#1991380)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

The live music forum will produce its analysis in the next few weeks. Current evidence is anecdotal, but it none the less suggests a broadly neutral impact.

No sign then of the 'explosion in live music' expected by the Government's Lord MacIntosh on the Act's introduction......

Now that the Government side now seem happy to see the statistics showing waht they see as 'a broudly neutral impact' - this is perhaps a good time to be reminded of the Government's response to the first petition.

We believe that the Act will make it simpler and more affordable than now to stage live entertainment in the vast majority of cases and increase opportunities for musicians and other artists to perform

We have also given an undertaking that we will review the existing descriptions of entertainment in the Act six to twelve months after the end of the transition period. If the Act has had an unintended, disproportionate negative effect on the provision of live music -or other forms of regulated entertainment-, there are powers already in the Bill to modify the position through secondary legislation. However we believe that the provisions in the Licensing Act will allow live music and other regulated entertainment to thrive.

As was pointed out at the time - it would be difficult not to improve on the then figure of 5% of premises with the old Public Entertainment Licence. But the important thing to remember is that some form of limited live music could then still take place in the remaining 95%.

As a result of the Act and the resulting and much lauded abolition of the 'two in a bar rule' - any form of live music is now made illegal - it would appear from the statistics - in 40% of available premises with a Premises Licence but without entertainment pemission.

Not my idea of a 'broadly neutral impact' or an 'explosion in live music'.

---

10 Mar 07 - 05:19 AM (#1992368)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Herga Kitty

Anyone else hear Lord Redesdale on Saturday Live (BBC Radio 4) this morning, describing how he did the deal with Tessa Jowell to get Morris dancing exempted from the licensing requirement? (Which he rated top of his list of achievements in the House of Lords.)

Kitty

---

10 Mar 07 - 05:45 AM (#1992380)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

(Which he rated top of his list of achievements in the House of Lords.)

It was a great disapointment when he sttod up in the Lords to announce that his side would still argue against many of the measures proposed but were going to vote with the Government.

For had he and the Lib Dem peers not supported the Government, the then Bill would not have become the current Act.

That would have been a far more effective way of protecting Morris dancing, sessions and many other things.

Did he explain why he did not take this course? One I feel that he could really have been proud of.

My understanding was that he regretted his actions, felt that he had been out manouvered and had obtained far more concessions than he actually had.

---

10 Mar 07 - 06:04 AM (#1992386)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

There is also a new Commons Early Day Motion (EDM) for you to ask your MP to sign.

Full details can be found on the following thread.

UK Licensing - Contact your MP

---

10 Mar 07 - 08:16 PM (#1993054)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/saturdaylive/2007/03/lord_redesdale.html

---

11 Mar 07 - 03:38 AM (#1993222)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss

People seem to be reading this thread but not the new one about the Early Day Motion, which keeps falling off the bottom of the page.

The government can happily ignore the petition, but the early day motion is a different matter. This development could the the breakthrough if enough MPs sign.

Everyone who signed the petition needs to now contact his or her MP and ask them to sign the Early Day Motion here: CLICK THIS

Notice how few MPs have signed so far.

If you don't know who your MP is, CLICK THIS It's very easy to contact your MP, and they're far more likely to react to a constituent than the PM is to a petition.

If you want some words to help you with your message REWRITE THIS.

"It is important to use your own words, but some of these points may help:

* The most recent DCMS/MORI research found that 40% of smaller venues have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Licensing Act ('Licensing Act 2003 - The Experience of Smaller Establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006').

* There is uncertainty about the status of the 60% of smaller venues said to have live music authorisation. DCMS do not know whether live music licence conditions, where they apply, have been implemented. Unless such conditions are implemented by the venue, having live music remains illegal.

* Under the old regime 100% of bars and restaurants licensed to sell alcohol could automatically provide one or two musicians.

* In the changeover to the new regime, all such venues were automatically granted permission to play recorded music, which also allows the provision of DJs.

* The provision of big screen broadcast sport or music is exempt, anywhere, no matter how powerfully amplified.

* The government has never provided any evidence that live music causes significant social harm, nor any evidence that live music is a greater risk as an entertainment than big screen sport in bars."

Thanks

Tom

---

11 Mar 07 - 04:09 AM (#1993235)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Part of the problem is that signing the petition or not is a matter for the individual. The EDM is another matter.

Many (Labour) MPs - even if asked by their constituents to do so - will be unwilling to be seen to support anything that is critical of the current Government.

I have written to ask mine to sign - but it is mostly unlikly that he will be prepared to sign it. Especially now that he is a junior minister in that Government.

---

11 Mar 07 - 04:22 AM (#1993243)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss

True, but MPs like to be seen to respond to local requests. If enough people ask...

---

11 Mar 07 - 05:50 AM (#1993269)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

This was the response to the last one. At least all those MPs who signed that one should be prepared to sign the new one.

Commons Early Day Motion 331

---

13 Mar 07 - 01:58 AM (#1995047)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

50,302

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

---

15 Mar 07 - 12:19 PM (#1997612)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

53,013

---

19 Mar 07 - 04:14 AM (#2000816)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

55,268

---

22 Mar 07 - 05:28 AM (#2003852)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

58,167

---

23 Mar 07 - 08:14 AM (#2004854)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Nope, no sign of a change from mine, but after hearing today that Miskin Folk Festival is cancelled, due to heavy handed use of the new law by the local authority, he is about to receive a very angry communication from this constituent.

Don T.

The following thread is (now) about the late cancellation of this festival.

Miskin 2007

---

25 Mar 07 - 03:44 PM (#2006872)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

59,981

---

29 Mar 07 - 05:52 AM (#2010425)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

61,687

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

---

01 Apr 07 - 07:25 PM (#2013890)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

63,164

---

07 Apr 07 - 08:26 PM (#2019443)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

65,734

---

13 Apr 07 - 09:22 AM (#2024135)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

67,606

---

19 Apr 07 - 03:42 AM (#2029726)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles

Deadline to sign up by: 11 June 2007

– Signatures: 69,153

---

19 Apr 07 - 07:13 AM (#2029808)
Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Geoff Wright

If you think the Licensing Act has affected Music and the Arts, you haven't seen anything yet.
A new stealth tax of Olympian proportions is just over the horizon, but already, all Arts funding has been axed for the forseeable future. Which do you want - more Arts or New Labour Games organised (sic) by the Ministry for Supercasinos and Late Night Opening?.

They aren't interested in musicians' votes, so make sure yours counts!

---