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20 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM (#1914891) Subject: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Y_Not With the latest events in Ipswich I now wonder if the UK should legalise Prostitution creating a safer environment for "working girls" and their clients. We have Massage Parlours to which the police turn a blind eye and allow them to trade, so why not legalise them. The Women would be safer than walking the streets. They would have regular health checks. Clients would be monitored. The women would be registered and liable to pay tax on their earnings. Y_Not |
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20 Dec 06 - 12:21 PM (#1914903) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: *Laura* It's not really a bad idea but it's never going to happen. Imagine the headlines....... |
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20 Dec 06 - 12:24 PM (#1914906) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: John MacKenzie Well it should happen, it works well in Australia G. |
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20 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM (#1914920) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST It kind of works in Amsterdam too so why not give it a try. Of course there will always be some women who prefer to work 'alone' to save having to give a cut to the brothel owner. |
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20 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM (#1914921) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Mooh When that happens I'm returning to union representation! Love to organize those folks... Peace, Mooh. |
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20 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM (#1914928) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Wolfgang Legalisation would solve a lot of problems. In my country too. Wolfgang |
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20 Dec 06 - 01:04 PM (#1914935) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Emma B Currently in the UK, prostitution is not illegal however the laws serve to make providing sex in exchange for money difficult and dangerous. Soliciting (advertising sexual services), streetwalking and brothels (where more than one woman sells sex in an apartment) are illegal. Kerb crawling is illegal in most of the UK but different laws apply in Scotland. In all of the UK, paying for sex with a woman is not illegal. These laws firmly place the criminality of prostitution on the women. The only legislation required therefore is the legalization of brothels; a word of caution however is necessary. If the process is legalised the situation for the trafficked victim remains largely the same. It does not help to alleviate her suffering, as there is no law against men visiting prostitutes. There is also no reason to raid the brothel, such that a woman may be trapped in a violent and abusive situation for many years with no means of escape. The Law in Sweden - introduced in 1999 The Swedish law introduced the notion that prostitutes were victims of male violence, making the purchaser of sex the criminal and the seller of sex the victim. The reasons why these laws work are simple – they criminalise the men that visit prostitutes. If anyone would like to see serious debate on this subject in the UK consider this on-line petition http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/prostitutionreform/ |
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20 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM (#1914936) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Rapparee Yes, it would in the USA too, Wolfgang. And not because of prudery and the fundies, either. Besides, as the old Madam said, "How're gonna figure the amount to tax? Ya gonna put a meter on it?" |
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20 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM (#1914949) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bobert Decriminalize ***all*** victimless crimes... |
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20 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM (#1914952) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Rapparee Prostitution isn't a victimless crime. |
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20 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM (#1914953) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Peace You didn't think that one through, Bobert. |
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20 Dec 06 - 03:28 PM (#1915023) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bill D The debate will go on forever. It 'sorta' works in some places, but most areas will resist the idea, so it will never be adequately tested and details worked out. ANY setup will be abused, but it sure seems like there should be a way to reduce problems with regulated, licensed places. |
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20 Dec 06 - 03:45 PM (#1915029) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,saulgoldie I insist that unless a given "crime" involves force or fraud or people under the legal age of adulthood then it should be legal. Prostitution, of course involves two (or more!) adults and an agreed-upon exchange of money for services. It is, in short a business transaction no more or less than buying a loaf of bread or trading on the stock exchange. Imagine what we could do if our legal justice resources were freed up from these silly and impossible enforcement tasks! |
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20 Dec 06 - 03:46 PM (#1915030) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST Ever watch a guy in a bar spending his weeks wages on some women who never opens her purse ? Ever watch a guy spending a weeks wage on a meal with some girl he met for the first time three days ago ? Ever listen to two girls talking about taking her boyfriends credit card shopping or getting him to pay for a holiday ? I thought it was legal. |
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20 Dec 06 - 04:13 PM (#1915044) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Wesley S There's nothing illegal about being stupid. I think it's called having a free will. |
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20 Dec 06 - 04:41 PM (#1915069) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: jacqui.c I had this disscussion with a good friend a few years ago. There will always be men who need sexual relief and, maybe, just to be physically close to a woman and who, for one reason or another turn to prostitutes to fulfill those needs. If there is agreement between the woman and her customer and both are satisfied with the bargain where's the problem? I, for one, do not believe that any group should be able to dictate to others what they feel to be 'right'. If you don't like it, don't go there. If prostitution was legal there would be more chance to make sure that brothels were inspected and that the women were there of their own free will. Any unofficial brothels could still be raided and closed down. |
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20 Dec 06 - 04:42 PM (#1915070) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: *Laura* Emma B - it's not just on the women. It's illegal for prostitutes to solicitise... that includes male ones. Although having said that we looked at a case once when I was dstudying law... the male prostitutes hadn't got prosecuted because the law reffered to 'common prostitutes' and that was decided to be women not men... but after that case it was changed. But yes... the law does pin everything on the prostitue... whether they are male or female. And yes - legalising it would probably be a really good idea but I bet it's not going to happen. |
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20 Dec 06 - 04:44 PM (#1915079) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Amos And it would be so much easier for the decent women in town who needed to gossip about the others -- they'd have a much easier time knowing on whom down to look! A |
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20 Dec 06 - 04:50 PM (#1915087) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad Isn't it legal in the state of Nevada? How is that working out? |
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20 Dec 06 - 04:52 PM (#1915090) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: jacqui.c Amos - I think that should read 'decent'. In my book there isn't much decent about the types who make that sort of judgement. |
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20 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM (#1915093) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bee-dubya-ell The problem with both arguments for legalization and arguments for further criminalization (ie making the johns the criminals as Emma B mentioned above) is that prostitution eludes all attempts to apply a one-size-fits-all description of what a prostitute is and why she plies her trade. Assuming that all prostitutes work in the business of their own free will ignores the very real issues of sex trafficking and abusive pimps. But assuming that all prostitutes are abused victims is equally falacious. For some, giving blowjobs just beats hell out of working at Waffle House (and nobody ever made $300 an hour waiting tables). Given a hundred prostitutes there would probably be a hundred different stories of why they're living the life. Some are victims, some aren't. Coming up with a legal status that best serves the interests of both groups is probably impossible. |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM (#1915098) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Rasener Well you aint ever gona stop prostitution. So for me the most important issue is to protect the prostitutes and look after their health, as well as the customer. |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM (#1915103) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Big Phil The Pavement Hostess, oldest profession in the world. It will never change. |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:14 PM (#1915111) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Georgiansilver If prostitution is legalized...who is responsible if one prostitute gives aids to a large group of men? |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM (#1915112) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Emma B Actually Bee-dubya-ell what I posted does not totally represent my own opinions but thank you for treating the discussion with the seriousness I believe it merits. I have worked with prostitutes and their children as part of my professional life and, while not advocating the Swedish system 100%, I do believe that women (or male) sex workers should not be criminalized while their "clients" incur no such "penalty" Trafficking, while representing a small part of the sex industry in the UK at the present time, is nevertheless still a nightmare for a large number of women and I felt it was necessary to also point out there was no "simple" solution. I don't however believe for one minute that the present situation has anything in its favour and some action is required urgently to prevent a re-occurence of the sort of daily abuse that the Ipswich murder case has served to bring to the attention of "Middle England" |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM (#1915114) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 There was a proposal here in SJ (Saint John, New Brunsick, Canada) recently that the 'johns' caught with prostitutes should have their vehicles confiscated. Much like when you are caught fishing 'out of season'. Great idea I and many of the citizens here thought. But, no it wasn't accepted due to violation of rights or whatever. Most prostitutes are out on the streets solicitating themselves to feed a drug habit. They have not chosen this way of life as profession. Legalizing prostitution would eiminate this. These girls are victims of a society that has deeper problems. biLL |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM (#1915116) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad If it's legalized, Georgian, screening for AIDS and other STD's could be much more easily done, even so it is also incumbent upon the consumer to take precautions. |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM (#1915117) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 correction .. I meant to say "Legalizing prostitution would not eiminate this." biLL |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:28 PM (#1915124) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 Legalizing prostitution would create 2 classes of prostitutes. The legalized ones who have chosen the profession and would be willing to go through the safety health precautions, having a 'standard' so to speak. But with this is a higher cost for their services. The other class would be the street kids as I mentioned. out there feeding their drug habit. Believe me, there is a large population of these tragics victims out there. Their costs would be lower therefore attracting johns out there abusing them for a cheap thrill. Sad, very sad. biLL |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:28 PM (#1915125) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST I think that it will become clearer on this thread, because the first 93 times it was discussed seemed to have arrived at no conclusions worth a darn. |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM (#1915129) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 That's true Guest ... it is a complicated situation. The solution is not in legalizing it. A problem, never the less, that society does not want to confront. biLL |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:37 PM (#1915137) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Georgiansilver Bobad. The angle I am looking at the responsibility thing from is:- If someone, through their profession causes injury to a client, they usually have third party insurance...in the UK anyway....as they have a duty of care...so they take responsibility and the insurance company pay up. If prostitution is legalised and prostitution becomes recognised as a 'service industry', then prostitutes will also have a duty of care...how many will take third party insurance and will the Government make them liable in any case? Food for thought. |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM (#1915138) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Emma B "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) Number 6 is unfortunately correct in his summing up but confronting the situation is long overdue! |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM (#1915142) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,saulgoldie We need as a society to effectively treat mental illness and drug addiction as illnesses and not a law enforcement problem. This will not only improve the lots of the sufferers, but it will improve EVERYBODY'S lot. Non-using addicts could more effectively make rational choices, of which practicing prostitution would quite likely not be one of them. And dry addicts would not need to impose their addiction on the rest of us by criminal activity to support their habits. |
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20 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM (#1915150) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 "We need as a society to effectively treat mental illness and drug addiction as illnesses and not a law enforcement problem." You hit it right on the button there saul. I certainly agree with that statement. There is one other problem and that is, there is big money to be made in the trafficking of drugs ... it's a business that has sophisticated marketing strategies ... these strageties ensure the cash flow is flowing ... albiet paying protection right up to the top of our governments and ensuring there is a market base that consumes drugs. This issue, has also to be dealt with. Until these 2 issues are remedied, we will continue to witness the tragedy of the our children hustling on the streets. biLL |
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20 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM (#1915183) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Rapparee Agreed, Saulgoldie and 6. It will take fundamental changes to our society. I'm not sure that those who have the power to make the changes have the guts to do what must be done -- or want to do so. As for brothels -- there really aren't many in the US. Even here, where the "Walled City" used to stand, you'd be hard put to find a "formal" working girl. They're out there, sure. But they aren't all that easy to find. Besides, as one of them said back in the Sixties, "I'm getting out of this business. There's too much amateur competition." |
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20 Dec 06 - 06:23 PM (#1915191) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bobert Rap and Brucie, Okay, I'll bite... Why isn't prostitution a victimless crime??? It, most certainly, is victimless... Bobert |
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20 Dec 06 - 07:06 PM (#1915211) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST Possibly because some would argue that the prostitutes are victims of life. OK a huge generalistion but we do hear tales of women forced to work the trade for a number of reasons. Illegal entry into the country and the need to fly under the radar can produce sex slaves too scared to report the abuse they recieve from their pimps so as not to alert the authorities to their existence? Legal brothels would presumably ensure the girls are here legally. So the illegals would still be offering cut price thrills on the streets. Not sure of the solution to that. Other girls claim to hate the business but need to do it for a fix. I would personally rather see the money that would have to be ploughed into legalising it go to setting up rehab projects. |
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20 Dec 06 - 07:08 PM (#1915212) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bee-dubya-ell Bobert, it's not the prostitute/client relationship where the victimization lies, but in the prostitute/pimp, prostitute/brothel, prostitute/drug dealer relationship. It's a victimless crime if and only if the prostitute is working of her own free will and receiving most of the money she takes in. If she gets $100 for a service and has to give $75 of it to her pimp, then she's a victim. |
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20 Dec 06 - 07:42 PM (#1915233) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bobert That seems to be more a labor/management issue, B-zer... I still don't see where anyone is a victim of a crime like when someone puts a gun to yer head and steals yer wallet... Okay, if one wants to generalize then there are no victimless crimes but if one wants tode-incarcerate America, or any other country for that matter, then this idea of victimless crimes has to ahve a greater understanding... Half the people in US prisons are there for crimes for which there were no victims... Unless you mean that sellin' a quarter ounce of pot for $75 whcih is a tad on the price gouging side... But, hey, buyer beware... No one held a gun to yer danged head and made you pay $75 for the quarter.. You could have said, "pass..."... That's what I mean... Bobert |
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20 Dec 06 - 08:14 PM (#1915260) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 Bobert have you ever seen the face of a 15 year old girl who was working the streets for drugs ... after some john smacked her face a few times for the enjoyment of it ... then throwing her out of his car without payment. Not a nice site. Plenty of hookers are out there working for their pimp merely because he threatens them with a pistol whipping. I's say plenty of prostitutes are victims, plenty. Life is cruel to the vulnerable out their on the streets. biLL |
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20 Dec 06 - 08:34 PM (#1915279) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Peace When the sex trade is not legal, the girls and guys have no protection other than their pimps. To suggest they are not victimized is to say they have 100% control of that decision. Getting into the trade is easy. Getting out is damned near impossible until the gal or guy is so worn out or so beat up that the pimps just don't see any profit in them anymore. I'd call that a crime involving a victim. The johns or johnettes are also involved in crime because they support an illegal trade through their purchase. The health of prostitutes is generally not good. STD transmission is high--although there are no reliable data for North America. In countries where the trade is legal and controlled, the transmission of STDs is lower than countries where it isn't. Period. (The bigger risk is Heb B and C, not HIV; subsequently, people who have unprotected sex with prostitutes are at higher risk than if they have unprotected sex with people from the general population. Yes, having unprotected sex with a prostitute is stupid. BUT, it must happen, because the frequent non-use of condoms explains why the transmission rate is higher from the prostitute population, that and the higher rate of infection. In countries where the trade has been legalized and the girls/guys must have regular medical exams and blood work, the infection rate is about that of the general population. Concomitat with the sex trade is IV drug use. In Glasgow, a study shows that the regular use of drugs takes place in 81% of the prostitutes who were in the survey. Whether or not the chicken came before the egg is a different matter.) To say that prostitution is a victimless crime says two things: 1) It is a crime 2) Prostitutes are being perceived as people who want to be prostitutes I don't doubt that some do, but maybe most would prefer to be working at something else. They will not be able to work at something else until they can get out of the trade. If people are going to prostitute themselves, they require the protection of the State, not the protection of pimps. No doubt the highly-paid call girl/guy population will be mentioned as examples of people who have, for one reason or other, been successful. Fact is, they are the exception, not the rule. I hasve never used the services of a prostitute, although I have known a few. They ain't happy people for the most part, and their work is the reason they aren't happy. That's anecdotal and really of no use in this statement, other than to say that I think legalization is answer number one, and help is answer number two. Unless of course we are willing to toss these people away as rubbish, in which case, not much of what I said matters. |
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20 Dec 06 - 08:40 PM (#1915281) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Rapparee Studying the materials left by those who were "in the life" you learn that even in the days of bawdy houses and madams, when men were men and women knew it, the girls died of overdose, violence, disease and even exposure. The "best cities" for prostitution were St. Louis and Fairbanks (approximately 1900). There the girls were medically checked and the police kept a check on rapacious madams, making sure that the girls got a decent deal for the work they did -- and servicing 30 men in one night was not unusual in either city. In these cities the girls could even go to work for themselves, even OWN their own house and home! However, the do-gooders (one of which was the US Army) forced the closure of these red light districts. The houses were raided, the girls were dispersed or jailed. No longer could the police find "real" criminals by checking out the longer houses. No longer were the girls checked medically, and there were no more checks upon pimps and madams. Back in those days, the "house" was more than a place for sex -- it also functioned as a sort of social club (yes, like in the movie "Cheyenne Social Club"), a place men (often alone) went to spend less time being lonely and to have some fun (and it didn't always involve sex). Look how many jazzmen started in sportin' houses.... It was a different time in American history, a culture so different that if you were suddenly sent there you'd get a shock similar to one of being set down unexpectedly in a primitive country. That is NOT to say that it was better for the girls -- far from it! Read the police reports of the period, or the obituaries if they were printed at all. Now, the girls are preyed upon and the "good" madam is all but nonexistent. It would take a fundamental change in American (and I suspect British) society to "decriminalize" prostitution. Besides, those little bugs have bigger bugs upon their backs...as they say, follow the money. |
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20 Dec 06 - 08:48 PM (#1915286) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 Good post Rapaire . In Canada Regina Sask. is one of the worst ... a lot of the victims are aboriginal bill |
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20 Dec 06 - 09:26 PM (#1915304) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad Excellent post Peace. I believe that in Canada prostitution is not illegal but soliciting for the purpose of prostitution is. I could never get my head around that one, seems like semantic mumbo-jumbo to me. |
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20 Dec 06 - 09:39 PM (#1915308) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Deckman If prostitution were legalized ... what (in GAWD'S name) would we do with all the churches? Bob |
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20 Dec 06 - 10:45 PM (#1915354) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Gulliver Wolfgang, surely prostitution is legal in Germany? I've seen enough brothels there (not that, ahem, I've ever, actually, emm..., you know?). |
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20 Dec 06 - 10:56 PM (#1915362) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dianavan "Now, the girls are preyed upon and the "good" madam is all but nonexistent." You got that right! The world would be a far better place if brothels were run by women. Freed from their pimp, their health would be their ticket to work. Clean prostitutes would knock a big hole in the drug trade. It would be a very rational way to address a very big problem. |
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20 Dec 06 - 11:00 PM (#1915365) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad Gotta agree with you on that one. |
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20 Dec 06 - 11:24 PM (#1915377) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 "Clean prostitutes would knock a big hole in the drug trade" A lot of the street girls fall into drugs first .... prostitution becomes an evil necessity to feed the habit. The 'good madam' is also a good business woman ... I doubt there are many that will setup their own rehabs to clean the girl first to meet the brothel's standards. Therefore the the 'street girl' remains on the street, easy pickings for the pimps and abusive johns. The drug business is a BIG business in it's own rights ... I really don't think the good madam's business will negatively affect the drug trade at all. biLL |
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20 Dec 06 - 11:38 PM (#1915381) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bert There's a great difference between legalising and decriminalising (Thanks Bobert). We need to accept that laws are made by very stupid people ('W' frinstance). This very day in El Paso County Colorado they (the folks who make the laws) declared a state of emergency because it snowed - IN WINTER - IN COLORADO. The problem needs to be taken care of in the voting booth. |
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21 Dec 06 - 12:24 AM (#1915400) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dianavan number 6 - Regulated prostitution would probably not fix the problem of drugs but it would sure screw up the distribution on the streets. It would also help to stop the spread of disease. I also agree that Big Mamma could be as bad as Big Poppa but I think the idea of womenn controlling prostitution is one step closer to women controlling their own bodies. |
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21 Dec 06 - 01:05 AM (#1915418) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Seamus Kennedy What's the difference between a prostitute and a porn star? Aren't they both doing the same thing for money? Seamus |
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21 Dec 06 - 03:20 AM (#1915455) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Slag Just for argument's sake, imagine a world where sexual intercourse was just between husband and wife, in the boundary of matrimony. There would be no STDs, no broken homes (leastwise, not because of infidelity), no exploited women, no bastardy, none of the thousands of ills that follow sexual immorality. Why would anyone rail against such a notion? Such an ideal would be a foundational element in a moral utopia. Does such an idea make you angry? Why? Is it realistic? Of course not! Why? Do you hate others judging you for your moral short-comings? Of course. Why? It's just a simple question of "are you in control of your body and it's drives or do the lusts of the flesh control you? And suppose someone does have such control? Does that make her or him a judge? A lot of people DO have such control---in THAT area of their life, but I happen to agree with the writer of old, "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no, not one." I don't think we need a legal authority to tell us what is right or what is wrong. We know what the ideal is and so often that ideal is denied us by our natures or our circumstances. That someone should starve to death or go into prostitution isn't much of a choice and the choice is a "no brainer". It's better to live. For many it's a wretched world we're born into. Many fight and claw for mere existence and for what its worth we take comfort and a little pleasure where we can. Authority steps in to attempt to minimize the very real negative impact certain moral crimes have upon society as a whole. Its a balancing act that has been going on for all of recorded history and beyond. There are no easy answers. Prostitution has been legalized, glorified, spiritualized and enshrined in certain belief systems. It has been condemned and hunted down. But it never goes away because we are imperfect people with needs we can't always meet or we are not always sure of our moral footing when attempting to meet said needs. If you care to check you will see that Rahab, a prostitute of Old Jericho figures into the Earthly linage of none other than Jesus Christ. While it's NOT a stamp of approval for prostitution it does demonstrate that it is not an unpardonable sin nor should it be something that stigmatizes one for life. People are more important than some of the moral dilemmas they may find themselves in. As a general rule you might ask yourself if you are helping or hurting the person. Is what you are doing helping to keep them in a morally degrading situation or are you helping to show them a way out. Do you place your physical needs above another persons social and/or spirutual needs? Submitted for your consideration and to further the discussion. |
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21 Dec 06 - 07:33 AM (#1915591) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Wolfgang Wolfgang, surely prostitution is legal in Germany? (Gulliver) I have read now a bit more about the position of prostitutes in Germany and must say that I did not yet know about the new law from 1/1 2002. Before that, prostitution was at best tolerated. For instance, any man then could claim that the trade (money against sex) was "against reasonable custom" (illegal) and he therefore had not to pay. Meanwhile the prostitutes have a right to get the money. But still prostitution isn't a profession like others (social security, advertising and all that) and there are some legal opinions that the law from 2002 is not valid for violating our constitution. Argument: Protection of Human dignity demands that prostitution has to be pursued by the state. Thanks for contradicting me, Gulliver, I know more now than I knew before. Wolfgang |
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21 Dec 06 - 08:31 AM (#1915631) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 dianavan ... I most certainly agree and cannot argue that legalization of would certainly have it's benefits in the protection of all invovled ... but there should also be the legalization and control of drugs to somehow cut down on the street prostitution. And Yes ... women should be the ones that administer and manage brothels of femal prostitution. Society should also be made aware that there is a large street population ... a dark world were the children, mentally ill are the targets of evil manipulation. Not only should we be made aware of this but we should show compassion and provide professional help to this population. They are the easy victims to not only serial killers, but regular beatings, rapes, drug overdoses and such. These atrocities go on because of our ignorance, and shear neglect. biLL |
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21 Dec 06 - 10:10 AM (#1915727) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Strollin' Johnny Legalise prostitution? What a sensible idea. And, if for no other reason than that, it'll never happen in the UK (I'll eat my soiled shorts if it does, and I'll be delighted). It works fine in other European countries (The Netherlands being, of course, the perfect example), why shouldn't it work here? And there would be a chance of getting some tax from the business too. Number 6 - could you explain what you mean by 'legalisation and control of drugs' please? Doesn't 'legalisation' mean 'de-control'? I'd be interested to hear how it would work. S:0) |
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21 Dec 06 - 10:42 AM (#1915771) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: JohnInKansas In the very few places in the US where prostitution is legal, the general population appear to have found it a "better arrangement," and public support for maintaining the status quo seems to be pretty general. Even in a few places where it's technically illegal, where it's fairly open it hasn't caused a lot of public concern. While I haven't checked recently, some years back it was noticeable that the Nevada locales where it was legal had lower VD rates than where it was prohibited; and "way back when I was in the Army in Arizona," the Arizona counties adjacent to Mexican towns where it was legal were spectacularly lower in STD infection rates than where there was less ready access. Twenty or thirty years ago, Colorado Springs voted on whether to legalize prostitution, but that vote failed by a few dozen votes. A candidate for mayor ran on the platform "I'm the biggest pimp in town so I might as well be mayor," and lost by a half-dozen votes. (Colorado Springs is quite near the US Air Force Academy, which supplies - I'm told - the principal "client base" for prostitution there.) Nevada permits prostitution, but indiviual localities can opt to ban it, and Las Vegas is a main exception. Prostitution is NOT LEGAL in Las Vegas (because the casinos don't want any distractions from their business?) but a recent report was that state courts have held that it's only the payment that's prohibited. One can call a provider (or her(?) agent) who is outside the area where it's illegal and give a credit card number, so that the payment occurs elsewhere and the prostitute will - according to reports - not be questioned regarding the "provision of services" within Las Vegas. Having not lived in an area where it's legal, I can't offer any personal opinion about how well it works in practice. I have had "casual acquaintance," in places where it was not legal, with a few "independents" (the ones I've met all had other day jobs, where I met them) who seemed quite ordinary persons who practiced of their own free will, mostly for the money. (Other reasons aside, I never had that much money to spend, so have no first hand knowledge of their "other business.") Others with more direct contact with the trade do indicate that it's hard to find one (where it's not legal) not addicted to something. Currently in my area it's usually "meth." This suggests that some of the horror stories are at least partially supportable, although I can't say whether they're "controlled by others" or whether they're just enslaved by their addictions. Few people are in a position to see all sides of it, or all the possibilities and/or risks. That makes it very difficult to take a firm stance for or against legalization (or simply de-criminalizing). At least in my area, it's quite obvious that should a miracle happen and it be decriminalized, those who can't accept that not everyone agrees with their own "moral imperitives" would be quite certain to apply sufficient rules and restrictions to insure that the worst possible outcomes are the guaranteed result. John |
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21 Dec 06 - 11:38 AM (#1915814) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 Strollin Johnny ... good question ... "'legalisation and control of drugs' .... what I mean by this is legalise all 'drugs' but still have government control over the standards and distribution ... much the same way liquor, handguns are controlled here in Canada. I'd feel more comfortable having the government administrating, maintaining strict standards and marketing of these substances than 'private enterprise'. I'd feel the same about prostitution if it was made legal. Laisser-faire would open doors for more problems. Feel free to present your opinions regarding this. I'd be interested in hearing them. biLL |
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21 Dec 06 - 11:48 AM (#1915827) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Strollin' Johnny I agree wholeheartedly. One problem, however, would be that I suspect the illegal suppliers would merely undercut the 'official' sources' prices, would be prepared to supply in much larger quantities than the 'official' sources, and would be happy to supply during what could be termed 'unsocial hours' - I doubt many chemists would be prepared to stay open all night for the purpose of giving succour to addicts. Otherwise a good, if somewhat Bohemian, idea. I'd go for it. |
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21 Dec 06 - 11:53 AM (#1915834) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 There certainly would be illegal suppliers out to 'undercut' and many of our problems would still exist but not to the extent as we witness today ... but then, we can only try to remedy the problems the best way we can. Thanks for your reply Johny. biLL |
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21 Dec 06 - 01:34 PM (#1915901) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad I don't have any data to support it but I suspect that legalization and control of drugs would lead to a decrease in use because of the elimination of the thrill that comes with the "doing something illicit" factor. |
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21 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM (#1915924) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Richard Bridge I think you will find that bastardy is without stigma in the UK these days. More children here are born out of deadlock than within it. I imagine that there is no more chance of elimination of prostitution (that is to say, the provision of sex for money and vice versa) than there is of eliminating masturbation or suicide. And indeed like masturbation but unlike suicide there seems to be no harm in the simple exchange of sex for money and vice versa. Unlike masturbation the side effects of prostitution may at first blush seem harmful, but are not the side effects in question the fruits of greed and capitalism and religion, rather than of the simple exchange of sex for money? Drug addiction is largely the product of greed and capitalism too. And no, before you ask, I have never paid for sex, nor taken it violently or by other coercion, nor knowingly consorted with a prostitute. |
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21 Dec 06 - 04:57 PM (#1916081) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Strollin' Johnny Drug addiction is largely the product of young, inexperienced, vulnerable people being manipulated by bastards, Richard. It's drug-dealing bastards (and their controllers - the 'Mr. Big' characters who wear expensive clothes, live in large houses, drive expensive cars, send their own darling children to private schools and would have anyone who sold drugs to their darling children beaten with a baseball bat at best or bumped off at worst) who need to be eliminated. I never heard of a kid's life being wrecked or ended by shagging a whore (except maybe their equilibrium being upset slightly and temporarily by contracting a dose), but there are millions around the world whose lives have been wrecked and ended by drugs. Prostitutes aren't the problem, drugs are. |
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21 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM (#1916108) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,Number 6 Well said Johnny .... exactly. biLL |
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21 Dec 06 - 05:36 PM (#1916125) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST I never heard of a kid's life being wrecked or ended by shagging a whore (except maybe their equilibrium being upset slightly and temporarily by contracting a dose), but there are millions around the world whose lives have been wrecked and ended by drugs. Prostitutes aren't the problem, drugs are. The 'whore's' life is wrecked. |
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21 Dec 06 - 05:48 PM (#1916142) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST Someone already said that the whore is entitled to do want s/he wants with her/his body. So, what's it to be? |
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21 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM (#1916155) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Uncle_DaveO Rapaire commented: Besides, as the old Madam said, "How're gonna figure the amount to tax? Ya gonna put a meter on it?" But that's how they finally got Al Capone. They couldn't get him for murders or bank robberies or prohibition violations, so they figured they'd look into his string of brothels. They ended up (perhaps among other things), intercepting the dirty laundry that was sent out. They figured one piece of business resulted in one change of sheet and I think it was two towels. Converting the laundry count back into business volume, at the appropriate rate per John, they came up with the approximate gross revenue. They worked from there to taxes due, and Scarface Al went to jail on tax evasion. As the old adage has it, "The power to tax is the power to destroy." Dave Oesterreich |
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21 Dec 06 - 06:24 PM (#1916175) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: BanjoRay Legalisation of drugs is the only solution to a lot of problems. The governments could EASILY undercut the silly prices that dealers charge, and make it not worth the dealers bothering. The government would have no incentive to get people addicted (unless, I suppose, they were Tories or Republicans[joke]), people wouldn't have the illegal buzz that maybe encourages some of them to start, and people who aren't addicted and desperate are a lot less likely to take up prostitution, or burglary, or robbery with violence as a career. There would be far less need for prostitution to be illegal. It could become a safe professional public service. Ray |
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21 Dec 06 - 06:59 PM (#1916196) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Richard Bridge Why call a drug dealer a bastard? An insult to bastards. Be careful what you say, it may not be what you think. But if you stigmatise the drug dealer, why not stigmatise the other dealers in the addictive? Societal norms are not necessarily the best criteria. |
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21 Dec 06 - 07:25 PM (#1916224) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST How many of these girls/boys if clean of drugs would choose prostitution as a way of living? Until they are clean of drugs they are victims. Only then can they make choices based on what is best for themselves. I'm unsure on this one. Legalising it makes it safer but does nothing to tackle the reason why they are doing it. |
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21 Dec 06 - 08:32 PM (#1916271) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,saulgoldie Drug addiction is a mental health issue. We confuse the issue and thus throw ourselves off the path to resolution by treating it as a law enforcement issue. Alcoholics and nicotine addicts can freely seek help because they know they do not face jail time just by admitting their problem. And that is the way it should be. Of course drug addicted hookers are victims. But they could only seek the kind of help they need (assuming it was freely offered as it SHOULD be) if they did not fear imprisonment. I do not suggest that legalization of prostitution or certain substances are wonderful things for society. I suggest only that they are better ways of dealing with the problems than the ways we are now. No perfect solutions exist, but there are lesser evils. And right now, we have worser evils. |
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21 Dec 06 - 08:34 PM (#1916274) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Cruiser Prostitution should be legalized. If humans must ascribe any purpose to life for any species, that purpose is basic reproduction; leaving your genes to perpetuate your species. Sexual intercourse is such a basic biological urge to reproduce that it will not be denied. Therefore, let those that want or need to visit a prostitute to satisfy that urge do so in a way that both humans are least harmed, physically and emotionally. "Margie's At the Lincoln Park Inn" |
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22 Dec 06 - 12:55 AM (#1916407) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Seamus Kennedy Back to my question - what's the difference between a porn star and a prostitute? They both do the same thing for money. But in today's society, a porn star can become a celebrity with a fan club, and entourage, and appear on legit TV talk shows....while the poor old hooker can't. Why is one a glamorous celeb while the other ain't? Seamus |
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22 Dec 06 - 01:43 AM (#1916419) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Slag Because if you put it on the screen, big or small, voyers, idoits and their ilk will pay money to watch. Advertizers look for the biggest audiences to sell their wares, pseudo-intellectuals will discuss the fine points of art and the whole lot will con themselves into believing that somehow its now OK, somehow its sanitized. What's the difference? Marketing, of course. |
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22 Dec 06 - 03:05 AM (#1916440) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: cobra Why is one a glamorous celeb while the other ain't? Could the answer be agents? Time to ditch the pimps, girls, and get yourselves professional representation. |
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22 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM (#1916473) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Richard Bridge THe reason some cut it as porn stars is probably looks. If you stop and peer down the wrong backstreets, I'm told the sellers you see there are by no means so photogenic. THe reason prostitutes are victims (when they are) is greed of others. THe reason drug addicts are drug addicts is the greed of others who make and supply the drugs. It's capitalism. |
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22 Dec 06 - 11:09 AM (#1916771) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST |
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22 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM (#1917051) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar One of the saddest things I've ever seen is the Red-light district in Amsterdam. It's better than having those girls on the street but its not good enough. |
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22 Dec 06 - 08:48 PM (#1917157) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dianavan Ain't that the truth, Seira Omar, I don't think it has to be so public. A red-light district is alot different than a brothel. A brothel could be discreet, regulated and safe. A district makes it a tourist attraction and the prostitutes are the side-show. |
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23 Dec 06 - 10:28 AM (#1917445) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland I thought it was leagal in Germany, the brothels are anyway. Atlantis (brothel) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Atlantis was one of the largest German brothels, located in an industrial area of Altenstadt, some 30 km north-east of Frankfurt am Main. It was opened in the fall of 2000 and was closed by authorities in March 2004 because of charges of large-scale tax evasion, pimping and trafficking in women. It was reopened in October 2004, but closed again a few days later; after protracted legal proceedings, the brothel was finally closed down. The brothel was a converted spa, with indoor and outdoor pools, jacuzzi, three saunas, professional massage parlors, and a free bar (serving only non-alcoholic beverages). Pornographic movies are shown on several TV screens. Men walk around wrapped in towels, women are nude (enforced by house policy). The working women and men both paid the same daily entrance fee of 65€. About 30-60 women sold sexual services. The standard price was 50 euros for half an hour of sex which normally included french kissing, oral sex without a condom and sexual intercourse with a condom. The money was paid directly to the woman, after the act. She got to keep it all; the brothel itself was financed from the entrance fees alone. This is the legal framework on which this brothel as well several other German brothels base their business model. They present a facility where consenting men and women can meet each other, what takes place between them is their business and the club supposedly has nothing to do with it. The club however sets up and generally enforces a price structure and house rules, with disputes settled by club management. A woman can expect to average about 200€ a day after the cost of the entrance fee. Legally, the women have to pay taxes on this amount, but few do since it is a cash-only business. There were early and late shifts, and women generally worked 3-6 days a week. They are free to come and go as they please, within the shift structure. Atlantis had an attached hostel where women could stay for 15 euros per night, sharing a room with three others. There are no pimps on the premises, but some of the women have pimps or boyfriends who take a cut of their money and who pick them up after their shift ends at 4am. Some of these pimps use other women in the club to spy on their women in order to gain a good estimate of their earnings. The majority of the women working in Atlantis were foreigners, mainly from Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, South America, Thailand, and Africa. Some of them lack legal work permits, and this is why the police occasionally carried out raids in Atlantis. Prostitution itself is legal in Germany, so the legally resident prostitutes and the customers face no consequences during these raids (except embarrassment), unless they carry illegal drugs. Mandatory health checks for registered prostitutes have been abandoned by the German government since January 1, 2001, but Atlantis required regular STD and HIV tests from the working women. In March 2004, police raided Atlantis and closed the club. Some 17 women were arrested for immigration violations. Two operators of the club were arrested under charges of tax evasion, pimping and trafficking in women; a third operator who was not present at the club during the raid fled to Spain and was arrested there soon after. A policeman was also arrested: he is accused of having informed the Atlantis management of police raids ahead of time. As of 2005, there are three other clubs in Germany that operate like Atlantis and have a similar size: FKK Oase and FKK World, both located in the area north of Frankfurt am Main, and Artemis in Berlin (opened in Fall 2005). The two Frankfurt clubs have different owners; ownership of the Berlin club is unclear. Several dozen comparable but smaller clubs exist all over Germany. They are typically advertised as "Sauna clubs" or "FKK clubs" ("FKK" abbreviates the German Freikörperkultur which means "free body culture" or nudism). The first of these clubs was opened in Hennef near Bonn in the 1980s; the model is apparently based on the Brazilian brothels known as termas. Most German brothels operate quite differently. Prostitution in Germany From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search A prostitute in Germany, 1999Prostitution in Germany is legal and widespread. In 2003, the government changed the law in an effort to improve the legal situation of prostitutes. However, the social stigmatization of prostitutes persists, forcing most prostitutes to lead a double life. Authorities consider the common exploitation of women from Eastern Europe to be the main problem associated with the occupation. Contents [hide] 1 Forms and extent of prostitution 2 History 3 Politics 4 Legal situation 5 High profile crimes and scandals 6 Sources and external links [edit] Forms and extent of prostitution Studies in the early 1990s estimated that about 150,000 - 500,000 women and some men work as prostitutes in Germany. The prostitutes' organization puts the number at 400,000, and this is the number typically quoted in the press today. From other studies, it is estimated that between 10% and 30% of the male adult population have had experiences with prostitutes. Street prostitution. ('Straßenstrich') Regular street prostitution is often quite well organized and controlled by pimps. Some prostitutes have a nearby caravan, others use the customer's car, still others use hotel rooms. With the recent economic problems, in some large cities "wild" street prostitution has started to appear: areas where women work temporarily out of short-term financial need. Eros centers. ('Bordell, Laufhaus') An eros center is a house or street ('Laufstraße') where women can rent small one-room apartments for some 80-150 Euro per day. They then solicit customers from the open door or from behind a window. Prices are set by the prostitutes; they start at 30-50 Euros for short-time sex. The money is not shared with the brothel owner. Security and meals are provided by the owner. The women may even live in their rooms, but most do not. Minors, and women not working in the eros center are not allowed to enter. Eros centers exist in almost all larger German cities. The most famous is the Herbertstraße near the Reeperbahn in Hamburg. The largest brothel in Europe is the eros center Pascha in Cologne, a 12 story building with some 120 rooms for rent and several bars. Pascha brothel, Cologne, 2006Escort services. (Begleitagenturen) Escort services, where you hire a girl for "entertainment" or companionship - followed by sex - exist in Germany, but are not nearly as prevalent as in the U.S. Bars. In bars, women try to induce men to buy expensive drinks along with the sexual services. Sex usually takes place in a separate but attached building. Prices are set by the bar owner, and the money is shared between the owner and the prostitute. Apartment prostitution. (Wohnungspuffs) There are many of these advertised in the newspapers. Sometime run by a single women, sometimes by a group of roommates and sometimes as safehouses for traffickers. Partytreffs and Pauschalclubs are a variation on partner-swapping swing clubs with paid prostitutes in attendance, as well as 'amateur' women and couples who get in without paying the flat-rate charge of about 80 to 120 euros that men pay, including food, drink and unlimited sex sessions, with the added twist that these are performed in the open in full view of all the guests. FKK and Sauna Clubs the four to five-star establishments of the business, but not much more expensive, or sometimes even cheaper due to intense competition among the numerous clubs concentrated in North-Rhine-Westphalia (=NRW: Cologne, Duesseldorf) and Hesse (Frankfurt). These are brothels formatted after the typical German nudist resorts and public saunas that have existed from times immemorial as 'Frei-Koerper-Kultur-Anlage', 'Nacktstrand' and 'Badehaus'. As such the emphasis is more on wellness and relaxation than on 'nightlife': the establishments open before noon, everbody is naked and many offer park-like outdoor areas, swimming pools, whirlpools, saunas, therapeutic massage services, porno cinemas, dining rooms, private and public 'play rooms', bars ect. Both, clients and service providers pay an admission charge of from 35 to 65 euros, including use of all facilities, food and drinks (some do not allow alcohol or smoking). Prostitutes charge anywhere from 25 to 100 euro for a 20 to 60 minute pleasure session and get to keep it all. Proponents of legal prostitution hold this business model up as example for an ideal working environment for the women. [edit] History German prostitution was officially mentioned and lauded for the first time during the Council of Constance in the 12th century, was legalised and regulated in the 1920s to control venereal diseases (STDs). Prostitutes had to be registered with local health authorities and submit to regular STD tests. During the Nazi era, street prostitutes were seen as degenerate and were often sent to concentration camps. Several of these camps, including Auschwitz, contained brothels, to reward wardens and cooperative inmates, and prostitutes were forced to work there. After WW2, the country was divided into East Germany and West Germany. In East Germany, as in all countries of the Communist Eastern Block, prostitution was illegal and according to the official position it didn't exist. However there were high-class prostitutes working in the hotels of East Berlin and the other major cities, mainly targeting Western visitors; the Stasi employed some of these for spying purposes. -- Street walkers and female taxi drivers were available for the pleasure of visiting 'Wessies' or 'Westprinzen', too. In West Germany, the registration and testing requirements remained in place but were handled quite differently in the various regions of the country. In Bavaria, in addition to scheduled STD check-ups regular HIV tests were required since 1987, but this was an exception. Many prostitutes did not submit to these tests, avoiding the registration. A study in 1992 found that only 2.5% of the tested prostitutes had a disease, a rate much lower than the one among comparable non-prostitutes. The compulsory registration and testing was abandoned in 2001. Since then, anonymous, free and voluntary health testing has been made available to everyone, including illegal immigrants. Many brothel operators require them. Anything done in the "furtherance of prostitution" (Förderung der Prostitution) remained a crime until 2001, even after the extensive criminal law reforms of 1973. This put the operators of brothels in constant legal danger. Most brothels were therefore run as a bar with an attached but legally separate room rental. -- However, many municipalies built, ran and profited from high rise or townhouse-style high-rent Dirnenwohnheime (= whores' dormitories), to keep street prostitution and pimping under control. These are now mostly privatized and operate as Eros Centers. -- In 2001 a one page law sponsored by the Green Party was passed by parliament that made most aspects of prostitution and promoting it legal. Only pimping and trafficking remained illegal. [edit] Politics The coalition of Social Democrats and the Green Party that ruled until late 2005 attempted to improve the legal situation of prostitutes in the years 2000-2003. These efforts have been criticized as inadequate by prostitutes' organizations such as HYDRA, which lobby for full normality of the occupation and the elimination of all mention of prostitution from the legal code. The conservative parties in the Bundestag, while supporting the goal of giving prostitutes access to the social security and health care system, have opposed the new law because they want to retain the "offending good morals" status. The churches run several support groups for prostitutes. These generally favor attempts to remove stigmatization and improve the legal situation of prostitutes, but they retain the long term goal of a world without prostitution and encourage all prostitutes to quit. Alice Schwarzer and her branch of feminism rejects all prostitution as inherently oppressive and abusive; they favor a law like that in Sweden, where the ruling Social Democrats outlawed the buying of sexual services but not their selling. [edit] Legal situation Prostitution is legal in Germany, though it doesn't quite have the same status as a regular occupation. Income from prostitution is taxed at a slightly higher rate than income from normal occupations. Prostitutes even have to charge VAT for their services, to be paid to the tax office. In practice, prostitution is a cash business, and taxes are almost never paid and rarely enforced. Since 2001 prostitutes and brothels are allowed to advertise. Many newspapers carry daily ads for brothels and for women working out of apartments. Many have websites on the Internet. In addition, sex shops sell magazines specializing in advertisements of prostitutes. Early in 2005, it was reported that a woman refusing to take a job as a prostitute might have her unemployment benefits reduced or removed altogether [1]. A similar story appeared in mid-2003; a woman received a job offer through a private employment agency. In this case however, the agency apologized for the mistake, stating that a request for a prostitute would normally have been rejected, but the client mislead them, describing the position as "a female barkeeper" [2](German). To date, there have been no reported cases of women actually losing benefits in such a case. Every city has the right to zone off certain areas where prostitution is not allowed (Sperrbezirk). The various cities handle this very differently. In Munich, street prostitution is forbidden almost everywhere within the city limits, in Berlin it is allowed everywhere, and Hamburg allows street prostitution near the Reeperbahn during certain times of the day. In most smaller cities, the immediate city center as well as residential areas are declared off-limits. The only city in Germany with an explicit prostitution tax is Cologne. It was initiated early in 2004 by the city council ruled by a coalition of the conservative CDU and the leftist Greens. The sex tax applies to striptease, peep shows, porn cinemas, sex fairs, and prostitution. In the case of prostitution, the tax amounts to 150 euros per month and working prostitute, to be paid by brothel owners (the eros center Geestemünder Straße owned by the city is exempt). Containment of prostitution was one explicitly stated goal of the tax. Foreign women from most countries can obtain a three-month tourist visa for Germany without problems. Many of them then work in prostitution. This is technically illegal, as the tourist visa does not include a work permit. MubIF [edit] High profile crimes and scandals There was a murder of six persons in a brothel in Frankfurt am Main in 1994. The Hungarian couple managing the place as well as four Russian prostitutes were strangled with electric cables. The case was resolved soon after: it was a robbery gone bad, carried out by the boyfriend of a woman who had worked there. In 2003, Michael Friedman, popular TV talk show host and assistant chairman of the German Jewish community, became embroiled in an investigation of trafficking in women. He had been a client of several escort prostitutes from Eastern Europe who testified that he had repeatedly taken and offered cocaine. After receiving a fine for the drug charge, he resigned his posts. Also in 2003, well-known artist and art professor Jörg Immendorff was caught in the luxury suite of a Düsseldorf hotel with seven prostitutes (and four more on their way) and some cocaine. He received 11 months on probation and a fine for the drug charges. He attempted to explain his actions by his "orientalism" and his terminal illness. These cases were only deemed noteworthy because they involved murder and drug trafficking. Generally whore-mongering by celebrities and public figures is not viewed as very titillating by the German public and largely ignored by the media, the general attitude being: "So what, it's only sex...". On the contrary, followers of the German boulevard press will often find pictures of male and female celebrities (including foreign ones) posing happily with naked prostitutes in FKK clubs. Name pop bands have performed at the Cologne Pasha brothel's disco. All the major FKK-clubs have been 'exposed' in positive newspaper stories due to their effective public relations efforts. |
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23 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM (#1917547) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: gnu Minds me of a Rodney Dangerfield type joke I coined some 30 years ago.... I don't get no respect. The other day, I went to a whorehouse at noon. There was a sign on the door. It said, "Gone to lunch. Go fuck yourself." |
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28 Dec 06 - 08:00 AM (#1920435) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Y_Not Dear All, After reading all your replies, I am heartened by the overall response to this sensitive subject. The problem I think is a lack of public sympathy and care towards the vulnerable minorities in our society. The fact is that victims of serial killers throughout history have been The Very Young, The Elderley, Gay Men and Prostitutes. A valid point was made that these women are feeding their drug addictions from their earnings, but some Pop Stars, Rock Stars and Film Stars do the same, the difference is that the latter have power and a voice in society and are above exploitation and abuse. It seems the good news is, the man that committed these crimes in Ipswich has been caught. I would like to wish you all Peace, Happiness and Prosperity for the New Year! Y_Not |
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28 Dec 06 - 08:43 AM (#1920447) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz As a prior poster has noted, prostitution is legal in Australia. Has been for some years - and I'm not aware of any major problems. The clients pay a 10 percent GST ( Goods & Services Tax ), so the gov't gets a slice of the action. The girls pay income tax, so the gov't gets another slice of the action, and the brothel pays company tax on profit so the gov't gets etc, etc. The girls are also covered by Workcover, a gov't injury insurance, in the event they pull a muscle or do their back in. And now the Daily Planet, one of the more up-market brothel chains, is a public company listed on the stock exchange. So, with a tax on share transactions, the gov't gets etc, etc. When thinking of what to buy the bloke with everything what about a few shares in a brothel. I reckon it would be real cool, when the boys are bragging around the barbecue about their Telco and Banking stock, to say you've got a couple of thou in brothel shares. Maybe shareholders even get a discount .......... JG / FME |
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28 Dec 06 - 10:44 AM (#1920494) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Rapparee It's still living off the sale of sex; it's still using others. |
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28 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM (#1920509) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: SINSULL I am totally in favor of legalised prostitution both male and female. The health inspections alone would make it worthwhile. Then add to it the elimination of vicious pimps who prey on illegal aliens and runaways. Giant BUT - the men I have known who frequented prostitutes invariably chose the most degenerate, drug inflicted, scary dirty whore they could find. They seemed to enjoy degrading these women. Not about sex I think but power (or lack of it). These women are not likely to stand in line for a license or be available for a physical. There will always be men and women who fall into this category for whatever reason - drugs, child abuse, mental illness - and customers who will use them. |
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28 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM (#1920521) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: John MacKenzie You do know some strange people Mary. I find it strange that legalised prostitution remains beyond the pale for many legislations, yet all around, biblically forbidden pastimes are being made legal, and even given the civil marital cloak of respectability. There was an interview yesterday with the newly 'united' male partner of some male star of a TV programme here in the UK. When he was asked how it felt to be married, he was very insistent that he wasn't married but part of a civil partnership. When asked why he did it he said it was important that people who were against homosexuals were shown that it is normal, and that the more homosexuals married the more those against it would be 'forced' to recognise it. I thought the use of the word 'forced' was an interesting insight into an attitude of mind I have long suspected existed, but it did seem like a crap reason to get hitched. However for the purposes of this thread, yes I think prostitution should be legal, and as a quid pro quo illegal prostitutes should face higher penalties which might help make them want to go 'legal' Giok |
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28 Dec 06 - 01:58 PM (#1920635) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: JohnInKansas An interesting(?) story revolves around one of the few legal brothels in the US. So far as I've heard, Nevada is the only state where prostitution is legal, and even there it's a "local option." Other states may have a wide variation in how criminal it's considered. The famous "Mustang Ranch" has operated as a legal brothel in Nevada, an hours drive from the nearest settlement, for a very long time -- at least a few decades. A few years ago, the US Internal Revenue Service siezed the business in a tax evasion suit, which left the US Government in the position of owning (and for a time operating) a brothel. The property has now been sold to (a) new private owner(s), reportedly in a classical "ten cents on the dollar" transaction, and is attempting to recover its former respectability; although details of just who (or what) now owns it seems pretty murky. At one time one could buy, for the friend who had everything, a "share" in the Ranch. The "stock certificate" was rife with mumbo-jumbo legaleze making clear that it was a "souvenir" certificate and represented no "ownership" in the business, but as I recall someone (Maybe a Playboy article) said that at one point they represented an equivalence value of "one square foot of a bedsheet used by ???? at the Mustang ranch," and you could pick your favorite lady to fill in the ????. John |
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28 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM (#1920985) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dick greenhaus Rapaire- "It's still living off the sale of sex; it's still using others." Unless you're independently wealthy, you're being used by others. I spent some 50 years being used by chemical companies, consumer organizations and magazines. I've spen the last 5 selling CDs, being used by customers. Not a reasonable argument against legalized prostituton. |
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28 Dec 06 - 09:45 PM (#1920987) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST but would you let your customers fist you for an ounce? |
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28 Dec 06 - 10:17 PM (#1921009) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST I know whores - A series of SERIOUS problems unfold...and the question of the "egg or the chicken" occure.
1. Is it lobido or meth? 2. Is it hereditory or tight jeans? 3. Is it addiction or freedom? 4. Is it home or seeking father? 5. Is it drug need or sexual fix?
Unfortunately, the child/woman is so enwrapped that topside or bottom both look the same....."been down so long it looks likes up."
One of the nastiest....of the nastiest places for a woman (particularly a day by day older whore) to live within. Legalize....but STILL....the oldest "profession" has nothing but contempt, Folklore, Koran, Bible, SelfActualization,PimpsDaddys.
Humans...and women in particular .... were intended for so much than being a back-street, back-door whore.
Legalization will not redeem their degradation, decriminalization will not mend the broken soul....sex was intended for so much more than to will an empty stomach or an aching hole. |
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28 Dec 06 - 10:30 PM (#1921020) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad "sex was intended for so much more than to will an empty stomach or an aching hole." Sez who? |
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29 Dec 06 - 01:12 AM (#1921096) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Seamus Kennedy I suppose if we use our bodies or any parts thereof to make money, then we are prostitutes. What's the difference between one part of the body and another? Seamus |
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29 Dec 06 - 01:54 AM (#1921113) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dianavan Exactly! ...and whats the difference between a woman who marries a rich man for his money and a prostitute? Believe me. There are many women who hate sleeping with their husbands but do so for the financial security. The difference between prostitution and other forms of labour is that prostitution is far more dangerous and spreads disease. Its time to clean it up and make it safe for both the Johns and the prostitutes. Prohibition doesn't work. Actually, prostitutes need a good union organizer. |
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29 Dec 06 - 10:51 AM (#1921341) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Midchuck Legalize it. With mandatory physical exams for disease, etc., and to check that the prostitute is not under age or mentally incompetent to decide whether he/she really wants to do this or not. Severe punishments for pimping. Pimps with prostitutes who are under age or being made to do it against their will or through drug addiction or something like that, get castrated with a dull chain saw, without anesthetic, and left in a roadside ditch to bleed out. but I suppose the liberals wouldn't permit that. Peter. |
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29 Dec 06 - 11:21 AM (#1921349) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,Cruz Geez Midchuck! Some village needs you on their Vice Squad. |
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29 Dec 06 - 11:32 AM (#1921352) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Seamus Kennedy C'mon Midchuck, tell us how you really feel. *G* I'm with you and Dianavan. Most jobs nowadays have precautions in place, e.g. health examinations, health insurance (sick workers are unproductive), drug testing. Most jobs, except for Hollywood showbiz and publishing don't have pimps. Why not the same for prostitutes? Seamus |
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29 Dec 06 - 12:00 PM (#1921369) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dick greenhaus "Most jobs, except for Hollywood showbiz and publishing don't have pimps" Yes they do. They're called Management. |
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29 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM (#1921374) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: SINSULL Giok, For many years I was the only woman working in outside sales in the food industry. I can tell you horror stories of the behavior of management in a company known for its wholesome Mom and Apple Pie image. Sexual harrassment was the norm and was condoned and even encouraged by top management. Drug addicted whores were given a room in the company suite. Strange times. We have come a long way baby. SINS |
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29 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM (#1921392) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Leadfingers 100 |
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29 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM (#1921429) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: John MacKenzie Sorry Terry mate, but there are threads where flippancy is out of order. |
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29 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM (#1921688) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Bill D sometimes humor can 'clarify' issues. Many of us have heard the old joke about a bar, where a big Texan with a leer sidles up to a girl and says, "Hey, honey...you are one sweet thang! I'd sure like to 'get to know you' better. Would you be willing to spend the night with me for.....say...$10,000?" She looks him up & down...startled...but after a minute she answers, "Ummm...yes, I just might be willing." The Texan, nods, takes a swig of his drink and says..."Well, how about a quickie in the alley for 20 bucks?" Her face clouds up- she leans back and says in disgust..."Hey, you SOB...what kind of girl do you think I am?" "Oh," says the Texan, "we've settled that...we're just hagglin' about the price." the story says a lot. |
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30 Dec 06 - 11:53 AM (#1922259) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: sapper82 To EMMA B; Given that the Swedish experiment has a dark side that is not talked about, i.e. that of the "Red Light" industry continuing, but in the grip of criminal gangs and has resulted in increased violence to the women involved, I fell that a "knee jerk" reaction to the Ipswich murders of criminalising the punters would be just as counter productive. The experience of Edinburgh with the Permissive Areas in the Leith area led to much less violence towards the girls involved in the sex industry and a much lower rate of drug abuse, with fewer pimps being involved. In addition to this, the girls organised themselves better to support and protact each other, including noting and recording who got into what car. This led to the arrest, within hours, of the perpetrator of the one murder that occurred during this time. Since the "Permissive Area" scheme was dropped, almost entirely due to pressure of "Yuppie" incommers, violence towards the girls and drug abuse amongst them have both increased tremendously We will never get rid of this trade. The current situation leaves the girls working in the profession who choose, or are forced, to work on the streets with little protection. The idea of allowing small brothels where two girls could work legally would take a lot of these women off the streets and into a safer, more secure environment. Unfortunately, that proposal instead of being followed up, has been squashed by No.10. And before anyone runs away with the idea that only drug addicts or "trafficed" illegal imigrants are forced into prostitution, there was a Radio 4 Women's Hour programme item a couple of years back into the saunas and massage parlours in Glasgow that showed that half to two thirds of the girls working in that town were students using prostitution as a way of paying their way through university. It is probable that comparable figures could be gathered for most of our university towns. |
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30 Dec 06 - 01:26 PM (#1922330) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: alanabit I have agreed with a lot of the comments on this thread. Prostitution has been with us throughout history and I can't see it disappearing from the world anytime soon. What legislators should do about it is always debatable, but the concensus arising (and I agree with it) is that clumsy, moralistic legislation makes a bad situation worse. There are many different levels of prostitution, so any "one size fits all" type law is doomed before it gets on the statute books. We can't remove the stigma from prostitution overnight, but we could do a lot to reduce it. The greater the stigma attached to this way of life, the easier it is for criminals to bully, extort from and terrorise victims. Many women would literally rather die than to have their families know that they were involved. This decreases their security from day one and also makes the business even harder to leave. I think a similar moralistic attitude has made a disaster of the drug laws. By all means hammer the dealers. For me you can saw their balls off slowly. On the other hand, if we allow the sick and the drug addicted to get their gear at the chemist's we can undercut the dealers and supply clean drugs at reliably measured doses. Would that eliminate drug addiction? Of course it would not. It would save us the dreadful spectacle of desperate young people living lives of theft and prostitution though. You simply can not make the decision that another human being will stop taking drugs. You can simply make it less likely that drug addicts will become prostitutes. |
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30 Dec 06 - 05:56 PM (#1922608) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dick greenhaus The obvious, and I feel valid, example was the massive failure of Prohibition. Repeal worked wonders in cleaning up the vast criminal organizations that Prohibition spawned. And the trade today in bootleg liquor is, if not totally eliminated, reduced to more-or-less manageable proportions. |
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31 Dec 06 - 05:03 AM (#1922945) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: sapper82 Some good comments Alanabit. Essentially, prostitution to feed a drug habit is a side effect of the drug culture, to combat that we need to find ways of effectivly countering that culture. Broadening the discussion to include this related problem, my ideas on countering illegal drugs include stigmatising the social use as well as providing better and faster support for addicts. We need to put in place a system of clinics where addicts may register, then receive supplies and be supervised in a safe, hygenic environment. Other measures could then be put in place to attack the drug user as much as the pusher. Regarding the effect of this on prostitution, there will be at least a small chance of getting the girls who are on drugs out of the reach of the pimps. There will, of course, still be the problem of "white slavery" with girls from overseas being tricked and forced into prostitution, this will of course require better immigration controls, something we can whistle for with this excuse of a government. |
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31 Dec 06 - 08:00 AM (#1923038) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: alanabit I am not sure that immigration controls are the answer. Criminals are able to trick and bully people into working in a sub culture of low pay, which falls below the radar of the authorities. Let's target that. As an island, Britain´s border is more difficult to get through, but it is still frequently breached. I would hazard a guess that Germany has a far bigger problem of workers being smuggled in to work for very low pay. There are similarities between the exploitation of all these groups, although prostitution is the most tragic. When prostitutes are imported, they face the fear of both deportation and possible disgrace/reprisals against their families in their home country. They are easier to punish than than their exploiters. Sadly, this is also true of many of the exploited builders, cleaners and crop pickers, who come in from Eastern Europe. If caught, they are likey to be fined and have their earnings stolen by the host country. The authorities frequently punish the workers rather than the sods, who exploit them by trafficking them or paying below market (or even legal) wage levels. Humane immigration controls are defensible, but harsh punishment of exploited people is not making the law either enforceable or respected. I am not sure what you mean by "better immigration controls", Sapper, but I hope it is something along those lines. I am in agreement with the general drift of your comments. It is obvious that the further we push drug addicts and prostitutes outside the law, the more likely they are to fall prey to ever more ruthless predators. |
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06 Jan 07 - 09:52 PM (#1928819) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: JohnInKansas A little to the "other side" of the sort of prostitution most here have talked about, but: 2 held in $10,000-'date' prostitution case Former Penthouse Pet among pair arrested in Atlanta area, police say The Associated Press Updated: 2:13 p.m. CT Jan 5, 2007 DULUTH, Ga. - Two suburban women — including one whom police identified as a former Penthouse Pet — have been arrested for prostitution in a case in which "dates" could cost as much as $10,000, authorities said. Lisa Ann Taylor, 42, was arrested Wednesday at her million-dollar home in the exclusive Sugarloaf Country Club area. She was charged with violating the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. She also was charged with prostitution, keeping a place of prostitution and conspiracy to possess cocaine, District Attorney Danny Porter said. Her alleged partner, Nicole Probert, 30, of Lawrenceville, was arrested on the same charges, Porter said. Both women are cooperating, but police said they had to force entry into Probert's home with a battering ram. Both women are suspected of participating in prostitution in Gwinnett County and other states, Porter said. "A 'date' can cost as much as $5,000 to $10,000," Porter said. "Eight-hundred to $1,000 for the prostitution act is the bottom-line price. They have a large number of customers. ... It's not street prostitution." [Just a couple of workin' girls, I guess.] John |
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07 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM (#1929386) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: alanabit There are moralists, who like to poke their oar into these things. I wonder who they think they are helping. The ladies in that report make very unconvincing "victims", which goes to support the idea that no "one size fits all" type of legislation is going to help those at the bottom of the food chain. |
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07 Jan 07 - 04:34 PM (#1929486) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dianavan Perhaps these two have the answer to the problem of street prostitution. Seems to me they had a viable business. If they had paid taxes on their 'home business', it could be a way to legalize this type of operation. However, it does not address the problem of safety and exploitation of the drug addicted, street prostitute working for a pimp. It isn't the act of prostitution that bothers me. Its the level of violence that street prostitutes are subjected to. They are abused by both pimps and johns. How do we stop this unless we give them access to the drugs that they need? Of course, the men who commit the violence, would probably just find another outlet for their desire to batter women. Now thats a frightening thought. Prostitutes are just a dumping ground for the men who abuse them. How do we stop sexual abuse of women? |
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26 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM (#2007838) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: JohnInKansas Historical Note John |
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27 Mar 07 - 05:18 AM (#2008260) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: guitar as a Christian I'm supposed to say no, however I agree lealise it. |
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27 Mar 07 - 05:19 AM (#2008262) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: guitar And certain drugs as well, I have never taken drugs |
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27 Mar 07 - 10:23 AM (#2008464) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Amos I think the distinction has been left implicit in the foregoing between prostitution and other crimes, such as white slavery, violation of civil rights, abuse, labor fraud, coercion, breach of promise, and physical assault. These things are all crimes AND they are associated with drugs and prostitution. But this association of ideas is not a necessary linkage; it is possible that the reason these events appear in related clusters is because they are all the province of criminals. Prostitution, despite its moral penumbra, is not a criminal act in itself, in its nature. It is a free contract between consenting adults. The criminality enters in when pimps, drugs, desperate runaways and minors are thrown into the mix, and health and civil liberties go by the boards. Bobert is correct that of itself it is a victimless crime. The vicitimization is largely thrust on the practitioner because of the illegality. There are other issues around the practice because it often acts as an escape from broken or dysfunctional relationships in families who should be spending that energy, one might think, repairing their connections. But so are bars, nightclubs, poolhalls, and so on, all of which serve as retreats for thos ewho cannot communicate or who have built unhealthy connections in life. I don't think the relationship between criminality and prostitution is a causal link; I think it is a by-product of knee-jerk management. A |
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27 Mar 07 - 10:58 AM (#2008504) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: katlaughing Amos, you are making a huge assumption that there are no victims when it is boiled down to just two consenting adults, a business deal, if you will. The woman could turn into a victim very quickly should the "john" turn violent, which happens all too often as that is the one way men are "sanctioned" to let their inhibitions go, i.e. do things to/with a prostitute which they would never dare/dream to do with a wife or girlfriend. |
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27 Mar 07 - 12:07 PM (#2008584) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dianavan Exactly, Kat. Thats why most of the Johns are married men. In my neighborhood, the most effective way of ridding the streets of prostitutes was to start 'naming the Johns.' We took photos and wrote down license plate numbers. The prostitutes soon moved their business elsewhere. If brothels were esablished, at least the prostitutes would have protection. This will not, however, eliminate the lucrative street business of turning tricks for violent men. Most of those prostitutes subject themselves to violence because they are drug addicted. We need to provide the drugs so that we can end the cycle of violence. Drug addiction can be treated as a medical condition. Why isn't this being done? Because its the most profitable business in the blackmarket (think prohibition) and because, once again, we are blaming the victim. Treating drug addiction would be the most effective way of decreasing violence in our society. If the U.S. really wanted to win the war on drugs, they would stop trying to bust the users (pointless), the pushers (new ones are ready to take their place) and stop destroying the crops in Afghanistan and elsewhere. We only prolong the war and turn farmers toward the Taliban and other war lords for protection of their livelihood. Instead of being seen as 'the enemy', we can end the production of heroin by providing medical care and destroying the market. The industry would soon dry up. |
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27 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM (#2008630) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Amos I think you are missing my point completely. Getting violent with another human being is a crime. If the other person is a prostitute, it is the same crime, and the nature of the crime has nothing to do with her trade. If prostitutes were treated with honor as citizens, whrether male of female, in the way that, say, chiropractors are, their lives would be no more at risk than any other practitioner, or perhaps only slightly madly so because sex as a subject often has a lot of insanity tied to it. That aspect is genuinely a risk of the business. Psychiatrists have the same risk in a difgferent way, of running into nutballs or desperate people. This is not likely to happen in a culture such as ours where sex has taken on such distortions of meaning and become tied to such heavy emotional packages, but that doesn't mean it is any the less true. The crime of prostitution is that it is criminalized, making criminals of those who practice it, whether as clients or vendors. This means that those who practice it are forced into the shadows. Another aspect of this cultural blindness is that emotional intimacy is a great scarcity and an absence hard to heal in poeple's lives once the starvation starts dictating behaviour. In a different world, those who healed people by filling emotional scarcities might be considered rare heroes. I have never paid (explicitly and directly) for love or sex; but I have known some who sold it, and more who bought it, and they always struck me as people whose deficits -- especially the buyers -- were primarily emotional rather than physical. Just an observation. A |
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27 Mar 07 - 04:08 PM (#2008789) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Blindlemonsteve I dont disagree with legalisaion, and i can see the benefits to the working girls, the problem with legalising it is that it in some way give it credibility. In reality its the easy way to make a living, i wonder how many people would turn to prostitution rather than make a living in the real world, and achieve something that is truly worth having. I think if you earn your money the easy way, does it make what you have worth having. and that is the real problem, in time prostitution would become like working at maccie D´s. something you do to get you by. the phsycological sexual problems would be immense. sex is a great thing between 2 people who either love each other, or just want to have a bit of freely given fun. i wonder how you would view it when youve had some dirty old raincoater all over you for a few quid. this is a massive issue, and not one to be taken lightly. there is so much more to it than just giving safe haven to prostitutes. so, my question is, if its a good idea to legalise prostitution, why wouldnt you want your son or daughter to do it?.... |
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27 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM (#2008821) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Amos I would prefer my son or daughter not walk dogs or collect trash for a living, or draw tattoos. that doesn't mean those things should be illegal. No provider of human services has to accept a client. If I were a working girl I'd be damn sure to filter the raincoat crowd out of my prospect list, wouldn't you? Don't get me wrong. I think it's a lousy way to make a living, and I wouldn't turn my hand to it myself, or patronize it. To that degree I share your tastes. But that doesn't mean I would want to criminalize those who do. A |
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27 Mar 07 - 04:43 PM (#2008829) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad "if its a good idea to legalise prostitution, why wouldnt you want your son or daughter to do it?...." Do you prefer the alternative as we now have it; pimps who control their prostitutes by violence and drugs and no prtection for the workers from violent clients? |
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27 Mar 07 - 04:59 PM (#2008840) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: frogprince Bobad, I don't think blindlemonsteve either said that or implied it. |
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27 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM (#2008861) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad Well you know frogprince I'm kind of tired of those who sit on the fence on this issue while so many working (mostly) girls are getting beaten up, hooked on drugs and killed. Blindlemonsteve says "the problem with legalising it is that it in some way give it credibility" well goddamn it that's what it needs, credibility. He also says it's an easy way to make a living an easy way out. That kind of judgementalism makes my blood boil. Sex is a beautiful thing between two people blah, blah, blah.... not everyone in society lives by those precepts and everyone deserves respect for their beliefs. IMO, there are two choices either legalize and control prostitution for the protection of the workers or accept the status quo, I see no half measures. |
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27 Mar 07 - 06:49 PM (#2008924) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bubblyrat If you legalise it, then you can have properly licensed and organised premises. These can be staffed by people who can be trained to spot the nutters, the unwashed, the drunk, the "desperados " etc.The ladies themselves can be encouraged to have regular medical check-ups, as a pre-condition to getting a licence to "trade ".This would immediately rule out the hollow-eyed skeletons who willingly demean themselves just to get their next "fix".These are the ones who spread the infections and,sadly, run the greatest risk of being the objects of sadistic violence. Once you allow women to run brothels etc (I hate that word !! Bordello is so much nicer---even "Cat house " !!) on THEIR terms, a lot of the problems vanish.One has to remember that there are many, many women who are "on the Game " as we say in England, for reasons not necessarily connected with coercion, addiction,or desperation. A few years ago, I saw a documentary about a bunch of beautiful,educated,articulate,self-confident young ladies who were paying their way through college by "entertaining " wealthy Japanese business men in Sydney, Australia. They saw no shame in it, and were sufficiently well-organised to be pretty confident about staying both clean and safe !! In The Netherlands in the last ten years or so, the authorities set up a car-park, where "Prostis " and their clients could go to transact their business, in Amsterdam. The car-park had/has security guards, and is well lit, so the women know that they only have to scream ,or sound the car horn, to get any trouble stopped before it can start.There are even some women,who would not, or cannot, dream of doing anything else OTHER than prostitution for a living.The classic case was of the Australian TV reporter who tried to "save " a bar-girl in ,I think, Thailand or Vietnam. He asked her why she did what she did, and she replied that she needed enough money for a small farm, so she could support her family. He really liked her, so he got 20,000 dollars together , or something like that, and took her back to her family in the countryside. Six months later, he comes back from Australia, but she is not on the farm . So he goes to Bangkok, or wherever, and she"s back working in a bar !! -----Because she likes it, she misses it, and the farm was boring !! So , no amount of protesting ,or agonising, or moralising ,is ever going to stop some women from wanting to join the world"s "Oldest Profession ", so I guess you high-falutin' ladies in the USA ( and England ! ) had better get used to that idea . Instead of condemning, and wringing your hands in horror, why not do something constructive to HELP these people ?? PUSH for prostitution to be legalised and regulated----INSIST on free medical checks for "the girls "---EDUCATE people about prostitution, what it is, and why some folks do it, and some folks need it. SURELY ---At the end of the day ---If legalising prostitution saves the life of just ONE young student, or nurse on her way home through the park ,who dies because some weirdo can"t get sex any other way ( And you can"t ban desire ) , then it would have been worth it ?? Don"t fight it---Try and UNDERSTAND it !! I suppose now you are thinking " Has he done any research ?" !! Well, Yes, I must say I have ---in Hong Kong, Singapore, Plymouth ( England ) and Edinburgh ( Scotland )!! . I was willingly and enthusiastically assisted in my endeavours by ,at various times and locations, fellow Social Anthropology students from colleges including ; HMS EAGLE--USS SANCTUARY---USS McCLOY---USS SPRINGFIELD , and ,to include Canada, HMCS BONAVENTURE ..( There were others !! ) That"s quite a few thousand researchers, so why not ask them for their opinion on the subject ?? !! |
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27 Mar 07 - 07:12 PM (#2008936) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: katlaughing If prostitutes were treated with honor as citizens, whether male of female, in the way that, say, chiropractors are, their lives would be no more at risk than any other practitioner... It would not matter if they were treated with honour, Amos. All that matters is what goes on behind closed doors and when it's about sex it can get violent and usually it is the woman who is the victim. There just aren't always the social restraints as there might be in a visit to the chiro. That is not to say I am against legislation to legalise it. I think it should be legalised. |
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27 Mar 07 - 11:46 PM (#2009095) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: dianavan blindllemonsteve - You answered your own question. I would not like my children involved in prostitution because, I too, "believe the phsycological sexual problems would be immense." I want my children to have healthy emotional relationships. I think prostitution is emotionally devastating for most and I do not think that it is an "easy way or an easy way to make a living." If its so easy, why don't you try it? |
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28 Mar 07 - 03:20 AM (#2009191) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Blindlemonsteve People seem to have got the wrong end of what i´m saying,,,,, i think, and this is only my opinion, that if prostitution were legalised, it would start to become accepted as a normal way to make a living. i am not saying its the easy way out at the moment, only that it could be seen that way if it were an "Acceptable" proffesion.... and its all perfectly well and good for us lot who are emotionly sound and able to think clearly because we come from a well rounded family. the line that working girls can be looked after etc etc,,,,blah bla blah is rubbish. sex is the most explosive form of emotion we have, no one gives it away for money without losing a part of themselves. this will in time cause more problems than it solves...i am not saying that we have the perfect situation, but surely we need to be looking at ways to get people out of prostitution. try to show that there are other options, jail pimps, come down hard on drug pushers etc... I do understand the call for legalising prostitution, but i think its a short term solution to a long term problem, and the line about not wanting my kids to walk dogs clear bins etc etc,,,, your missing the point, you dont get emotionly F@@#ed up for the rest of your life if you do those jobs. and your right, i havent tried prostitution, because i am one of the lucky ones. i have been blessed with parents that cared about me and my welfare. |
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28 Mar 07 - 04:30 AM (#2009228) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: alanabit Blindlemonsteve, I have to respect your optimism about stamping out prostitution. However, if you want to get some idea of how long the profession has been with us, you might Check out Joshua, Chapter Two. You can not make other people's moral choices for them. I think it is a more reasonable assumption to say that prostitution is going to be with us for some time yet. There is really no choice about whether we are going to live with it. The fact is, we simply have to decide how we are going to live with it. It exists on so many levels, that total regulation of it is a pipe dream. Prositution can be a wife tolerating sex with an unloved husband (and I believe that is prostitution). It can also be junkie desperate for a fix. It can be a thousand things in between. The attempts to fix problems, when they have already reached the stage that women take this option are usually expensive and counter productive. If we invest our efforts in helping to prevent women slipping into these desperate straits, we can reduce the amount of prostitution considerably. Moral outrage is a poor policy maker. |
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28 Mar 07 - 07:20 AM (#2009306) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,ib48 there is a petition to be signed on line in favour, visit WAYNEROONY.COM,SHREK.UK |
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28 Mar 07 - 02:20 PM (#2009703) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Blindlemonsteve I am not aware that i ever attempted to make peoples moral choices for them, merely opened the debate up to look at it from another angle, as i have said, i clearly understand why people think legalisation would work, i am just putting another angle on it. I live in a country where there are loads of brothels, regulated and clean, they are not legal, but they are accepted, its not hard for any prostitute to work in one of these brothels. so effectively prostition in all but name is legal. so why when i go shopping do i see at least 15 to 20 working girls on the side of the road, some are young and innocent, and look like they desperately need a decent home and a new start, some have just been through the mill for so long, they have almost resided themselves to the fact that prostitution is all they are worth. I feel sad everytime i see them, I thank my lucky stars that i have not had to tread that path. prostitution is a desired proffesion by very few. it is a harsh result of a cruel and punishing drug addiction, pimp, broken family. Only when we have tackled these issues, and cracked down hard on the scumbags that traffic this vile trade, can we think about legalising so that we can have proffesional sex workers..... For what its worth, i know this is an ideal, and my optimism sounds ridiculous, but i am prepared to strive for the ideal, and not settle for making do. I wonder how many people here have ever even spoken to a prostitute, or had a relative fall into it. I suspect not too many... Its so easy to sweep all the issus under the carpet and say that people would choose to do it safely if it were legalised. |
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28 Mar 07 - 02:43 PM (#2009729) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: katlaughing Blindlemonsteve, I don't doubt your sincerity, but you contradict yourself. On one hand you state that prostitution is an easy way to make a living and on the other you talk about how horrible and difficult it is. As for it being easy, I have to totally disagree with you. There is nothing easy about lying down with a perfect stranger and subjecting one's body to their every desire, nor is it easy to negotiate pay for the same. I also don't believe it is always a result of drug addiction or broken family. Yes, those can be factors in such a choice, but not always. There is so much else that can effect one's decision. |
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28 Mar 07 - 03:35 PM (#2009793) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Blindlemonsteve Katlaughing, easy way to make a living,,,,in the sense that you dont need to study hard at school or college to do it. And why should a young person work hard at school, go onto college, then university to get into a proffession that will only pay 20k a year, when they can earn far more lying on theyre backs becoming dirty meat for someone they have contempt for. even if they manage to get out of that vile trade, they will always be scarred, but this horrific reality will only become evident when you have taken the plunge. As i have stated before, i dont think anyone takes money for sexual favor without leaving a part of theyre emotional self, nothing is easy about that. Your absolutely right about many factors that can cause someone to fall into prostitution, i just wanted to point out the obvious... There has been so many real facts written in this thread, and it is obvious everyone has only the best interests of the vulnerable in mind. I dont want to come across as someone who is self righteous pompous or sitting on the fence. i just want to look at the whole idea of legalised prostitution.what you give with one hand, you take with the other...its just the way things are. If you are going to get a balanced opinion, you need to understand the other side, listen and see it from that side, this doesnt mean you have surrender you ideals. Anyway, i´m gonna sign off this thread now, thankyou to everyone who has made me think about this for the last few days, i waited and tried to come up with an argument to counter balance the general view of the thread. Who knows, legalisation might be the way forward. But i have a feeling we will never find out... |
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12 Mar 08 - 09:52 PM (#2286974) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,saulgoldie Uncoerced consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever they want to do as long as they are not hurting others. Republicans who rant about the government being too much involved in our lives should be leading the charge. Except that they are too wrapped up in their moralistic meddling in all matters reproductive for OTHERS that are just plain none of their business. I don't think that they will change any time soon, however. Saul |
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12 Mar 08 - 10:37 PM (#2287021) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,Stranger Except, Saulgoldie, that many prostitutes are exploited by men, are sometimes desperate people, and really do nothing to enhance a neighborhood where people just might want to raise children. Prostitution is not a victimless crime. It does not enhance a society. |
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12 Mar 08 - 10:40 PM (#2287022) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 I have to agree with Stranger regarding that post .... that's why it should somehow be legalized and controlled. biLL |
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12 Mar 08 - 10:43 PM (#2287024) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad The crime is that it is a crime, it can be legitimized and regulated but, as saulgoldie says, there is no political capital to be had by doing so. |
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12 Mar 08 - 10:47 PM (#2287031) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 Good point bobad .... that is human tragedy in itself. biLL |
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12 Mar 08 - 10:50 PM (#2287035) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,Stranger It does not enhance a society in any way. It degrades it. |
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12 Mar 08 - 10:54 PM (#2287036) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad It fulfills a social need and it's criminalization is what degrades society. |
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12 Mar 08 - 10:57 PM (#2287040) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,Stranger Social need? To get laid? What a joke. It will never happen, so forget it. Thank GOD it will never happen. |
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12 Mar 08 - 11:00 PM (#2287043) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 yes, but bobad 95% of hookers aren't high class call girls ... they are desperate junkies selling themselves out on the streets. social need or not ... it's human degradation. biLL |
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12 Mar 08 - 11:01 PM (#2287046) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: GUEST,Stranger Good one 6. You always did have some common sense. |
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12 Mar 08 - 11:04 PM (#2287047) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad It keeps the evangelists and politicians away from our daughters. |
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12 Mar 08 - 11:11 PM (#2287055) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: number 6 ... and sons. |
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12 Mar 08 - 11:13 PM (#2287056) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: bobad ....and goats. |
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12 Mar 08 - 11:47 PM (#2287076) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: meself "To get laid? What a joke. It will never happen, so forget it." That's pretty harsh on poor ol' Bodad. There's always hope; you never know, someday he'll meet the right girl ... |
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13 Mar 08 - 01:45 AM (#2287118) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: Barry Finn All the more reason to make it legal. The woman work for ligit houses, have routine medical check ups & are "certified clean". So there goes the junkies & pimps. Clean up the profession, bring it back to respectable, in Nevada the houses have their own highway exit so's not to bother the neighborhood & the politicians won't have to guit their jobs everytime they get caught going through the door, the priests maight feel a little bit better about themselves too Barry |
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13 Mar 08 - 01:20 PM (#2287528) Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution? From: saulgoldie The fact of its illegality is what makes it so much more dangerous to women. The other problems that drive women to prostitution are just that: other problems. They should be dealt with in the appropriate manner in the appropriate environment. Keeping prostitution illegal does not make a junkie any less likely to sell herself for a fix. Anyways, don't we have truly dangerous people out there who would better occupy prison cells making society truly safer? |