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23 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM (#1917496) Subject: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Ernest Since we seem to have birthday threads for almost everyone here now.... Halleluja (and merry Christmas for everyone!) Ernest |
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23 Dec 06 - 12:33 PM (#1917520) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: SINSULL Apparently not: http://www.truechristian.org/are_you_a_t_c/christmas.htm |
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23 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM (#1917524) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: gnu Well then why not the 25th? JC, buddy! Have as good a day as you can. |
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23 Dec 06 - 01:38 PM (#1917558) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Rasener Which only helps to prove that its all a load of bunkem.. Is Christmas an excuse for companies to sell all their stock before the New Year and for banks to get stuck into offering loans to all the poor people who have over spent. Is it a way of trying to make people happy in the middle of Winter (UK) just to help us make it to summer. How do I tell my children. Maybe Father Christmas is real after all. Happy Christmas one and all |
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23 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM (#1917609) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,Gza I think it's fairly well proven that Jesus was born in the Spring of the year, not anywhere near around Christmas. The Romans moved his "birth date" to late December so that it would coincide with already existing major religious festivals in pre-Christian religions. If you want to pretend he was born at Christmas, though, and it makes you feel good...well, I can't see any great harm in that. But keep in mind that the primary use of the occasion is to sell consumer goods to hordes of harried shoppers. $$$$$$ |
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23 Dec 06 - 03:21 PM (#1917613) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: kendall In the Christian belief system his birth date is of no importance. His resurrection is. |
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23 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM (#1917615) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,Gza Yes, that's sort of what I was thinking when I said "I can't see any great harm in that". |
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23 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM (#1917617) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: SINSULL No importance in the Virgin birth??? I don't know about that Kendall. |
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23 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM (#1917622) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,Gza He wasn't talking about the "virgin birth", he was talking about the date. |
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23 Dec 06 - 03:31 PM (#1917623) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Joe Offer I suppose you're right, Kendall - but Christmas gets better music (it's just that I'm tired of having practiced new choir pieces since September). Merry Christmas! -Joe- |
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23 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM (#1917650) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: jeffp December 25th is just the date of the birthday party. They very seldom are held on the actual birthday even with us lesser folks. |
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23 Dec 06 - 09:13 PM (#1917898) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST Happy Birthday Jesus!!! |
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23 Dec 06 - 10:24 PM (#1917914) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: number 6 Yup .... Happy Birthday to the Big Guy's Son. Hey JC it's your day ... Hell everyday is your day!! biLL |
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24 Dec 06 - 12:33 PM (#1918196) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Cluin Happy B-Day and take a big breath, Jesus. You've got a f__k of a lotta candles to blow out. Then after all the hoopla, if you got the time, I'd like to sit down with you over a glass or two and you can straighten me out on a few things you might've said that have gotten messed up over the years. |
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24 Dec 06 - 01:10 PM (#1918221) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland no one really knows when Christ was born. |
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24 Dec 06 - 01:12 PM (#1918224) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,sorefingers Yeshua Bar Joshua was probably born around Jan 7th - our calendar - he was Jewish. Often confused with Ha Zeus and Mithras legends which celebrated the midwinter with merry festivals celebrating the birth of the new year, which eventually evolved into the 'son of gods' (myth old Geek legend reporting child born of human and god/s)born precisely at midwinter. Thus combining two pagan practices, midwinter and the gods making a human pregnant. The Jewish Yeshua Bar J, Rabbai and terrorist ( similar to todays Osama Been Bomin yous westerners ) was executed by the Romans in 33 AD, RIP. Thhe poor fellow so offended the authorities that the Jewish puppet state under Rome banned the use of his real name for ever. It worked too, widely named Ja Zeus and other corruptions of the old Greeko-Roman god's name ( Zeus ). So instead of remembering the dead Rabbai as really the Messiah, folks have been blapheming the Holy Name whilst driving the name of the real chap further into hell for his percieved offences against the Law. Truely a Merry time when the Yule Log burns... lol OTOH having some compassion for the poor long dead person perhaps we should do the Christian thing a pray for his soul. |
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24 Dec 06 - 02:10 PM (#1918248) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Cruiser _____________________________________________________________________ Jesus!...another birthday thread...Christ! I AM surprised Shambles did not start this thread. sorefingers, your thread was humorus...worth the thread title. ___________________________________________________________________ |
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24 Dec 06 - 03:25 PM (#1918293) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Nigel Parsons It seems that this may have started something of a tradition. After all, the head of the Anglican Church was born in April, but has her official birthday in June. CHEERS Nigel (And Merry Christmas to anyone 4 hours ahead of UK time!) |
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24 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM (#1918345) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Slag Yashua (Jesus) son of Mary and ostensibly Joseph was by scholarly concensus born sometime around October. The date is really unimportant. There was almost certainly a design by making it supercede Saturnalia and Bacchanalia celebrations, solstice and New Year. And why not? It's as good as time as any. Seems everyone is celebrating something around this time. Jesus Christ (XPISTOS, the "Annointed One") was "born" at his baptism which was performed by John, the Baptist (we Baptists go way back, don't we?[LOL]) when the voice of Yahweh came from Heaven, declaring "This is My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased". Compare this with the prophetic verses quoted by the writer of the Acts of the Apostles Chapter 13, verse 33 of the 2nd Psalm verses 6 and 7 "Yea have I set my King upon my holy hill of Zion, I will declare the decree: Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." So you might just as well suggest that the date of His baptism was the date of His birth. More theologically profound is the idea that Jesus was with God from the beginning when God said let US make man in OUR image. Jesus declare to the Jewish leaders that He was before Abraham, i.e., He said before Abraham was, I AM. What He said and what the Pharisees understood was that He applied the literal Name of God (YAHWEH)which means "I am" to Himself. He declared Himself to be their God. Not believing Him, the sought to stone Him to death for the sin of blasphemy, taking the very Name of God in vain ( John, chapter 8, esp. vss 58,59) Well, unless you worship Santa Claus or Bacchus (Jim?) or Saturn, Jesus is the reason for the Season. It is a matter of faith and revelation. You can't find Him unless you seek Him and you can't seek Him unless He draws you. The Good News (which is what the word Gospel means) is that His Word has declared that He is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to repentance. He said that if He be lifted up (on the cross) that He would draw all Mankind to Himself. But he still leaves room in your hearts for free will. The choice is yours. The doubts will never succumb to Human reason. If we could reason our way to God no one would be saved. It remains a simple matter of faith, available to all. |
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24 Dec 06 - 05:10 PM (#1918347) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace Think thoroughbred horses. |
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24 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM (#1918363) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Joe Offer As a person with an actual Degree in Theology, I have this to say about when Jesus was born: I dunno....but I certainly enjoy celebrating Christmas. But let's talk about Bacchus. I think his 'spirit'uality is far too focused on wine, and I wish he would give fair treatment to Beer and Scotch. If so, I'd be glad to celebrate his birthday, too. Merry Bacchanalia. -Joe Offer- |
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25 Dec 06 - 01:31 AM (#1918532) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,sorefingeres Other odd Pagan practices remained within the cult that followed the death of Yeshua Bar J. One, today much in the news, is Paedophilia and OC the other great diversion of ancient religion, Homosexuality. Bishops, Piests, Parsons and even lowchurch Preachers sometimes measure their success by secret standards, which we read about in the papers once in a while. A Mr. Jones having jumped hundreds of his female followers on failing, withering etc., brainwashed all, including the hundreds of children he had fathered, to comit suicide, which all of these poor fools then did. Did I say brainwashing? I did. Well the same could be said of the 4 Jews who wrote the N.T. and the extent of the madness can be seen in the writings of those whose writings are not included in that book, Thomas, Judas etc. Except there the insanity is in plain sight and not hidden in scholastic humbug. And so, what were the real 'sins' of Jeshua Bar J.? Did he rape somebody? Did he assault a male minor? |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:58 AM (#1918579) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: gnu Gosh. Very interesting reading. |
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25 Dec 06 - 10:56 AM (#1918666) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: alanabit Not too fussed about either the theology or the history. It seems some basicallly good guy was born and later topped around the turn of the first century. However, I get a chance to visit family, hear from old friends and possibly pass on a bit of kindness if I can. It seems to bring out the best in a whole lot of folks. So Merry Christmas to all of you! |
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25 Dec 06 - 01:49 PM (#1918725) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,sorefingers In case Shag thinks he know it all here is some real Greek Ένας για όλους και όλους για έναν Never a dull moment on Mudcat! Merry Chris mas ho ho ho ho ho |
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25 Dec 06 - 02:23 PM (#1918741) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Stilly River Sage Much of the "history" of the cross and the crucifixion and such comes from Phrygia, in the earlier worship of Attis and Cybele. Every year a pig or beef was symbolically slaughtered at the base of a pine tree, there was also priestly self-flagellation. Lots of tree/post worship and symbolism there. Mary is pretty clearly the appropriation of some aspects of Diana (of Nemi) but while this was happening Diana herself was vilified by christians. So in some sects of christianity Mary is still much more important (those who didn't buy into the evil-Diana story and were willing to convert many of her attributes over to Mary). Gets pretty confusing. The only troubling aspects of all of this that I would point out are the folks who can't take a long view of the importance of ritual and ceremony and celebration, who take the Bible literally and insist that everyone else do the same. If there was ever a box of mixed jigsaw puzzle pieces, the Bible is it. SRS |
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25 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM (#1918742) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk What point are you trying to make, sorefingers? |
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25 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM (#1918798) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Cluin Nothing against old Yeshua, but he's NOT the "reason for the season", two-bit rhymes notwithstanding. The season's the reason for the season. Have a merry one. |
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25 Dec 06 - 04:49 PM (#1918824) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk The reason for festivals at this time of year, and they existed LONG before Christianity, was simply this: The celebration of the winter solstice. "The Winter Solstice Celebration, Midwinter Festival or Winter Solstice Festival occures in many cultures. The astronomical event of the winter solstice, occurring around December 21 or 22 each year in the northern hemisphere, and June 21 or 22 in the Southern Hemisphere, is the shortest day of the year. The winter solstice can be, but is usually not, also the darkest night of the year, which takes into account the full moon. In antiquity, the winter solstice was immensely important because communities were not assured to live through the winter, and had to be prepared during the previous nine months. Starvation was common in winter between January to April, also known as "the famine months." The winter solstice festival was the last feast celebration, if it could be managed, before deep winter began. Many cultures celebrate or celebrated a holiday near (within a few days) the winter solstice; examples of these include Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and HumanLight. The first civilization to celebrate the winter solstice were the Ancient Persians, deriving from their Zoroastrian religion. The following is a list of Winter Solstice Celebrations and Festivals. The Christian church simply conveniently decided to relocate Jesus' birthday to coincide neatly with the ancient traditional solstice celebrations...adding 3 days after the actual solstice (on Dec 22)...which no doubt was meant to symbolize the three days of Jesus' body lying in the tomb...and then on the 25th, he rises. Jesus was spoken of as "the Son of God" and "the Light of the world". The sun IS the light of the world, and its return after the longest night of the year is analogous to the action of a Saviour of all life on this planet. These parallels are not coincidental. The Christian religion was building upon a very strong pre-Christian foundation when it decided to name the solstice festival after Jesus Christ. And then you've got the German Saint Nicholas thing coming in as well, which is another whole story all its own. ;-) The thing is, whether Christianity ceased to exist or not would make NO difference whatsoever to the fact that people would STILL be very likely to have a seasonal festival at the time of the Winter Solstice. So it is not, ultimately, a Christian issue, nor is it a festival which you can blame exclusively on Christianity if being anti-Christian is a cause that is dear to you for some reason. ;-) |
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25 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM (#1918825) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace People will do the damnedest things for no reason at all. When they adopt a reason for the thing they do, they then proceed to argue it until it makes sense to them. From that point they begin to inflict it on the rest of humanity. |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM (#1918830) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace People who are in awe of stuff like the solstice are also in awe that the sun rises frequently. Humanity used to rise when the sun did because there were no friggin' alarm clocks. They slept when it became dark because light was hard to come by. The rhythms of life were based on light and dark, dry or wet, warm or cold. Eventually people noticed a connection between what they'd been doing for millenia and what was happening around them. EUREKA! It's MAGICK! Let's have some rituals. Hell, if ya can't beat 'em with brains, baffle 'em with bullshit. The above is less to do with Jesus and more to do with all attempts to organize people's personal beliefs, whether those beliefs have now appeared as a theism, animism or whatever. "In the year 274AD, solstice fell on 25th December, and Roman Emperor Aurelian proclaimed the date as "Natalis Solis Invicti," the festival of the birth of the invincible sun. In 320 AD, Pope Julius I specified the 25th of December as the official date of the birth of Jesus Christ. In 325AD, Constantine the Great, the first Christian Roman emperor, introduced Christmas as an immovable feast on 25 December. In 354AD, Bishop Liberius of Rome officially ordered his members to celebrate the birth of Jesus on 25 December." "The most likely year that Jesus was born, is 6BC, probably in the month of March." |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:33 PM (#1918844) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk Peace...I don't agree that people do things "for no reason at all". They always do things for a reason (when they first do them), it's just that it may not be a reason that makes sense to you, because you maybe weren't there and you don't know why they did it. ;-) It is true that once a few generations of people have done anything then the ensuing generations tend to repeat it, not knowing why. Be assured, however, that the first generation that did it knew exactly why they were doing it. There is nothing magical about the solstice, but it's real...and life on this planet is totally dependent upon the movements of the sun and the energy coming from the sun. For people to give that some serious recognition is natural. For them to personify it in the human form of a God-man is not surprising. I think the ancient peoples were a bit quicker on the uptake than you give them credit for. They may not have had internal combustion engines and computers, but they were not stupid. ;-) Matter of fact, some of them were downright brilliant by the standards of any age, and to realize that one only needs to read the literature and observe the great works that their finest minds left behind. |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:37 PM (#1918848) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace If the intelligence part is true, LH, explain religion. |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM (#1918853) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Emma B It's not in "awe" of the Solstice - it's in rhythm with it and sorry LH it was usually personified as female the ultimate lifegiver! |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM (#1918854) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,GS Wise came came to Jesus over 2000 years ago....and still do. |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM (#1918855) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace Sorry to touch so many nerves. Religions, all of 'em, are bunk. |
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25 Dec 06 - 05:46 PM (#1918857) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: bobad I would posit that the tendency of social groups to perform acts of ritual is a way of strengthening and maintaining the bonds of the group and that many of the traditional seasonal festivities endure as a result of selection. |
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25 Dec 06 - 07:51 PM (#1918909) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Cluin Amen, Peace. |
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25 Dec 06 - 09:51 PM (#1918939) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: number 6 Peace ... I like your post at Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM .. I agree, but I will add ... sometimes people will do the damnedest things for the sheer entertainment of it all ... much like the current popularity 'dinner theatres'. All that effort applied in the construction of Stonehenge ... but the result was one mezmerizing back drop to one hell of show. All the effort applied in the construction of the finest cathedrals ... but the magnificent result were back drops to some of the finest shows ever put forth. biLL |
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25 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM (#1918960) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace I hear y'all. I hope Christians enjoyed their day, celebrated the birth of Christ--maybe a bit intermingled with Santa Claus--and had a wonderful time with their families. I still don't like organized religions of any sort, but that's my axe and maybe this wasn't the thread to grind it on. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:32 AM (#1918985) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk Fine with me, Emma. ;-) I think of "God" as much as female-goddess aspect as I do of "God" as male aspect. How could it be otherwise? And yes, Nature in all its fruitfullness is definitely a feminine archetype in most cultures, as is the planet Earth (Terra), while the sun is more often seen as a male archetype. The sun is seen to fertilize the Earth, the Earth is seen to give birth to new life. Peace - Both stupidity and intelligence are found with equal facility in religions...just depends which one you want to focus your attention on, that's all. People see what they look for, generally. And by the way, the present status of money $$$$$$ in our culture IS a religion! Its shrines are banks, stock exchanges, and casinos. As religions go, it's probably the stupidest and most destructive one ever, and it has claimed the most human lives and destroyed the most species of life on this planet. All for a fictitious concept that is actually worth absolute zero...because it's not real. It's a synthetic made-up idea, created entirely by human beings out of nothing, and unlike most other religions it's an idea devoid of any higher philosophical ideals that might improve people if they applied them. It's the crudest and most vicious religion of all time, and it runs everything in this entire society. People kill other people for it every day. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:42 AM (#1918987) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace Makes ya wonder why religions want so much money, huh? |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:54 AM (#1918991) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk All part of one big game, Peace. ;-) The power game. He who has the most money controls everything, because he can hire the most muscle to enforce his will upon others. It was the same in ancient Rome and Babylon. There have only been a few civilizations where money didn't rule, and they were usually nomadic or hunter-gatherer groups...or relatively simple and unsophisticated societies, in other words. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:56 AM (#1918992) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace Yep. That's it in a nutshell. |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:04 AM (#1918996) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Joe Offer Well, I dunno. We had a good time and lots of wonderful music and decorations, and sang carols for sick people all over town, and spent a good deal of money and effort on a big dinner and overnight lodging for the homeless and lots of other good stuff at church this weekend. We delayed all the burnings at the stake until after the first of the year; so all you people who worry so much about the harm done by religion, can take the week off. -Joe Offer- |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:05 AM (#1918997) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk So really, all you can hope for in a money-dominated society is that the richest people don't turn out to be psychotic, anti-social bastards.... |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:19 AM (#1919001) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Cluin Wasn't religion did all that, Joe. `Twas good people. |
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26 Dec 06 - 05:11 AM (#1919030) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Jim McLean The Sceptic My Father Christmas passed away When I was barely seven. At twenty-one, alack-a-day, I lost my hope of heaven. Yet not in either lies the curse: The hell of it's because I don't know which loss hurt the worse — My God or Santa Claus. -Robert Service |
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26 Dec 06 - 05:31 AM (#1919043) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,GS I guess those who are dead against religion have not 'experienced' anything to make them think other than what little knowledge they have gained from what they have heard. When you have a life changing experience it can help us focus on what is really important. If I asked any of the sceptics what they did when they were at rock bottom in life---like did they pray---most of them will affirm that they did---so I ask them why did they pray? I rarely get a direct or truthful answer---why is that? I truly believe that will to pray when in 'rock bottom' situations is an instinct. I am a Christian believer and get answers to prayer as are and do many others. You may not have experienced what I have but it does not make me some religious nut or foolish person. Maybe if you looked to have those experiences I have had then your life may also be changed for the better. We all make our own choices, however they are formed by our beliefs. |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM (#1919087) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: number 6 Your right on that one Cluin ..... you certainly don't need a religion or be religeous to be a good person or perform good deeds .... e.g. back in the Penetang/Midland region of Ontario the local Hell's Angel chapter does a large and very successful toy drive each Christmas. biLL |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:10 AM (#1919092) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: freda underhill I'm not and never have been a Christian. But I greatly respect the social activism undertaken by some Christians in Australia, who have been the first to give continual support and assistance to people who have been marginalised, ignored and abandoned by government. The homeless, refugees, people living with AIDS - sections of the Catholic Church, Uniting Church and others are right there for them. |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:27 AM (#1919098) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: bobad PR biLL, the rest of the year these fine upstanding citizens are involved in producing and distributing drugs, pimping, extortion and other such fine community undertakings. |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM (#1919102) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: number 6 I know bobad, was waiting for someone to point that out ... used that a an extreme example. Sometimes a very 'unreligeous' person can perform very good deeds ... as much as a religeous person performing inhumane acts (and I won't bring these up in this thread). biLL |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:42 AM (#1919106) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: bobad I do get the point you are making biLL, a year or two ago a group of "exotic dancers" organized a fund raiser for the Children's Hospital in Montreal which turned down the money raised because of pressure from a bunch of self-appointed, outraged, holier-than-thou moralists - fuckin' hypocrites IMO. |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:45 AM (#1919109) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: freda underhill Agreed, anyone can perform good deeds, socially responsible actions etc, without a guiding philosophy, need to be holy etc. And it is self evident that just as religions have carried out massacres, atrocities & wars, so have people driven by secular philosophies. All organisations need to be more accountable to basic human rights standards and most organisations are limited in their approach by some sort of dogma. As it is Christmas, I salute those Christian activists, who have been the first to give continual support and assistance to people who have been marginalised, ignored and abandoned by government. I look forward to seeing athiests organise to assist people with AIDS, on the scale that volunteers from St Vincent de Paul do. |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:57 AM (#1919113) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: number 6 Thankyou freda ... and yes, as it is Christmas I would like to salute the Sally Ann (Salvation Army). No explaination required to explain the efforts performed by Christian organization. biLL |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:39 PM (#1919253) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Joe Offer I think it's safe to say that religion is one way that people join together in community to share their most precious values and ideals and beliefs. If anger and fear, particularly xenophobic fear, is a dominant force in their lives - then their religion will serve to amplify that anger and fear into something horrible. If the dominant forces in their lives are justice and generosity and love, then their religion may serve to amplify those forces. When there is a conflict between the forces of love and fear within a religious group, then the results will be mixed. But the currently fashionable practice of condemning all religion as inherently bad, is downright prejudice. Tell me what was wrong with Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker Community, with Martin Luther King Jr. and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, with Desmond Tutu and his work as an Anglican archbishop in South Africa. -Joe- |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:54 PM (#1919262) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Amos No one questions the value of life-changing experiences; where would we be without them? Perish the thought. The issue is to what one attributes those experiences, and whether such attribution is truthful or not. But regardless of that question, the fact remains that most good works are good, and only those who ARE good can conceive of and execute them successfully. Whether Methodist, Buddhist, Zoroastrianist, or Jain... A |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:45 PM (#1919512) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: freda underhill All religions have a range of proponents from progressive to hardline. Extremists of any belief often cite extremists from another belief as examples to support their own prejudiced views. For example an intolerant Christian will point the finger at an intolerant Muslim as a way of asserting their own superiority. People from warring countries or ethnicities point to the atrocities perpetrated by their opponents as the reason they have to defend themselves. In trying to get to truth, people reject superstition and power structures that oppress. This can happen within or outside of religious belief. and hypocrisy is not confined to people with religious beliefs. One of the greatest hypocrisies in my view is to be an armchair critic. The birth of the trade union movement in England came out of the Methodist Church. Religious belief and social progress are not incompatible. freda |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:23 PM (#1919545) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST I delivered hampers and gifts for two days. I do volunteer work about 400 hours per year, often more. I do not belong to any church. Goodness that people have does not necessarily come from their religious affiliation. Neither does badness necessarily come from their religious affiliation. |
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26 Dec 06 - 09:37 PM (#1919599) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Slag Well. Sorehead, er I mean, Sorefingers, one thing you are up on me is getting my Greek characters to come up in this box, but yes I do read and write Hellenic and even speak a little and I also watch the half hour Greek TV show on sattelite every Sunday. I also remember a little Hebrew and Aramaic and can even translate some Egyptian heiroglyphics, not that, THAT is so important. One of the points I was making which some of you wanted turn into an argument was that fact that I was agreeing with you all: Christianity co-opted several of the "pagan" holidays that occur around the time of Winter Solstice! And the really interesting thing is that in so doing it managed to pick up some of the flavor (quite a lot actually) of the holidays it displaced. And obviously parallels and comparisons would be made. And also obviously when the state (the Roman Governmant under Constantine I) converts, the populace will only tolerate so much change so many of the religious practices were left in place. Of course it was a much more complex and living dynamic than these few brush strokes but I would hope you would understand my point under the discussion topic at hand. As far as religion goes, humans are religious creatures. It is in our nature to worship something. That is almost certainly something we are in awe of, something larger than ourselves. The smallest minds worship nothing but themselves but they do worship. Our alphabets, glyphs and symbols are steeped in religion. Our languages are steeped in religion and religious imagery and symbolism. We think and reason with words that ultimately touch religious themes and questions. Its inescapable. Look at the religious dedication and fervor that sprang up around Marxism and Communism which purported that there is no God and that religion is the opiate of the masses! That's beyond ironic: its telling. Read my earlier post. Its Christmas, regardless of when the "real" date of His birth was. Its one of the two major Christian holidays, a time for Peace on Earth and Good Will to all. Do you want to argue with that? Run it down? Cast stones? For about 2000 years some people have and it seems to me that the more He is castigated the stronger this particular religion becomes! To quote a popular song from the sixties, "...just what you want to be, you'll be in the end." (Moody Blues). |
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27 Dec 06 - 01:06 AM (#1919708) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk "The smallest minds worship nothing but themselves but they do worship." Exactly. ;-) Everyone worships something. It might be some version of God, it might be some philosophical notion, it might be money, it might be sex appeal, it might be a political ideal, it might be their wife or husband or it might be their own reflection in the mirror. And as you worship, so you will be: the reflection and the result of that which you worship. |
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27 Dec 06 - 02:27 AM (#1919718) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Slag Ahhh, Men! |
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27 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM (#1919888) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,sorefingers Gee now ain't that something! Everybody 'worships' something. Every day we learn something different, and today is no exception. But seriously, can you tell me what I should do? I don't have any idea what you mean by that word, 'worship'. Do wiggle my toes? do I look up at the sky? What do you do Slag to 'worship' 'Him". Do you mean pray to G-d? |
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27 Dec 06 - 11:12 AM (#1919890) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Cluin Stand in awe. |
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27 Dec 06 - 11:15 AM (#1919893) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,Cruz Shock and Awe like your buddy bush did. |
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27 Dec 06 - 02:06 PM (#1920009) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,guest Wilfried Schaum abroad By clerical convention Jesus' birthday is Dec. 25. In former days the day begun with the darkness of the day before. That's why the Christkind brings its gifts in the night from Dec. 24 to Dec 25, and St Nicholas doesn't come at Dec. 6, but in the night before. Oriental custom. Sabbat=Saturday starts on Friday evening. |
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27 Dec 06 - 05:25 PM (#1920106) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: robomatic Wind 'em up and look at them go! |
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27 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM (#1920121) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk By "worship", Sorefingers, I simply mean that you place primary importance on something, you have deep confidence in it, deep committment to it, and you build your life around it. It is your foundation upon which you place your greatest trust and reliance. You admire it and love it. You value it. That's worship. I do NOT necessarily mean that you pray to it or engage in some form of outward religious ritual (in the church sense, for the literal-minded). That's why I say that some people worship money, for instance. They do. You can't get around it. Look at their behaviour in regards to it. It is the one thing they trust above all else, and it is the primary thing they will lie, cheat, and kill for. That's worship, baby! For other people it's good looks that count the most. Observe how they fall all over themselves and worship at that particular altar when in the presence of a beautiful woman, while they totally ignore those women who are not so good looking. And it works the other way too, of course. ;-) How many women have worshipped Brad Pitt? For other people, it's their own over-weening ego and their own intellectual brilliance that they worship. Every time they post, and then go back to look with delight upon the incredibly apt things they just said...they are worshipping at the altar of their own godhood, as they see it. If you can't see that it's worship, well, perhaps you are just not much inclined toward philosophical appreciation of common human foibles and weaknesses. Weaknesses which we all have. Everyone worships something. You included. I'm not sure what it is, though, because I don't know you well enough to say. I would have to get a chance to be around you for awhile, and then I could figure it out, I'm sure. I would just watch for what you place the most emphasis upon in your life, and then I'd know. |
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28 Dec 06 - 02:28 AM (#1920353) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Slag Worship comes from the word "worthy". It simply means to recognize the worthiness of someting. Additionally it also means to have faith in something like the return of the Sun or a boat that can take you across the water. Your wife or husband may be (should be) worthy of your love and trust. See how it works? Its not a mystery. Some of us have figured out that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and we acknowledge this beneficience as God. No one is twisting your arm here. In America and on the internet you are free to believe as you will. |
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28 Dec 06 - 05:21 AM (#1920397) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Georgiansilver Amen yet again Slag, In the UK too! |
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28 Dec 06 - 07:17 AM (#1920429) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland I'm a born again Christian, however don't think that I don't any other faiths, I just beleive in what is right for me. there are quite a lot of things I can say about other faiths but I don't because what right for you isn't all right for someone else. tom Happy Christmas and and Happy new year. oh and by the way Jesus still lives and saves. bye |
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28 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM (#1920587) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Slag Yes tom. And "Good" is still "good" whoever is doing it. And truth remains truth regardless of whose mouth speaks it. Almost all the Faiths seek to honor the Divine or the Myterium or Existence itself. And somehow most of these faiths also seek to benefit their people and Mankind in general. And a Very Happy New Year to You All! |
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28 Dec 06 - 01:54 PM (#1920629) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace 'For instance' is not proof. But then belief needs no proof. That is the nature of belief. |
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28 Dec 06 - 02:12 PM (#1920643) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk Very well said, Slag. (28 Dec 06 - 02:28 AM) Thank you. |
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28 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM (#1920655) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Georgiansilver Yes Bruce..I always felt that 'You have to understand before you can believe' but having become a Christian in the way I did I now know that from the start of believing comes the beginning of understanding Peace...Best wishes, MIke. |
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28 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM (#1920656) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Peace Mike, you I trust as being a 'real' Christian who both talks the talk and walks the walk. I think you would have been a 'beautiful' person anyway, but believing in Jesus ain't hurt you none. Best to you, buddy. |
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29 Dec 06 - 05:02 AM (#1921150) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Georgiansilver Coming from you Bruce I take that as a real compliment but all Christians 'Fall short of the glory of God'...like we all make mistakes and non-Christians are always ready to jump on us in an attempt to belittle 'the truth' of our belief. I have often made remarks on Mudcat that I have regretted later or said things to people and thought afterwards...I should not have said that but both Christians and non-Christians do these things....perhaps being called to justify words or actions are what take us a little nearer to being the perfect Christian (if that is 'humanly' possible).....but I for one am slow to learn this and often make mistakes. Thanks for your comments anyway..I too have much respect for you. Best wishes, Mike. |
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29 Dec 06 - 09:28 AM (#1921276) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Slag Right-on post, Georgiansilver. When we acknowledge our Humanity we also acknowledge our lack of completeness. It's easy to get caught up in a heated debate or a little ribald give-and-take and I lose sight of the one whom I should be modeling. I may even be the Champ in that regard (but modesty forbids me!!!). |
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29 Dec 06 - 02:37 PM (#1921456) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: Little Hawk No. Chongo is the Champ in that respect. ;-) Or did I spell that wrong? |
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29 Dec 06 - 03:14 PM (#1921478) Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th) From: GUEST,GS No, that's the wright weigh to smell Chongo |