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25 Dec 06 - 10:24 PM (#1918956) Subject: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha I am trying to identify a pen and ink that I recieved for Christmas. Photo of it here. We have determined that the period in it is probably Edwardian, it is probably of a 'bahnhof' or station. There are lots of horse drawn vehicles in front. Several kinds but don't ask me what kind. The words on the top of the building seem to say something like Fahar, possibly Franz Jozeph I or maybe Trans Lez....??? Date on the top of the building is 1808. It was framed by Gerhard Alter Framers in Mannheim, bus. started in 1925 but that isn't really much help. I've looked till I'm blind on Google Images. Does anyone know anything? What, where, who??? |
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25 Dec 06 - 11:02 PM (#1918959) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace Franz Joseph I wasn't born until 1830. |
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25 Dec 06 - 11:07 PM (#1918961) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: katlaughing You might try posting it at Rick Steves' website. If anyone would know, he would and/or his viewers. Good luck! |
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25 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM (#1918963) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha I found that out, Peace. It's probably a copy of the original, son found it at an antique store in Pueblo, CO. Matted and the paper backing is glued to the frame so I can't take it out to see if the sig is covered up or if there is any info on the back. Darn it. Thanks! |
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25 Dec 06 - 11:26 PM (#1918967) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin Hard to tell from the pic but it doesn't look like pen& ink. More like an engraving. |
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25 Dec 06 - 11:56 PM (#1918979) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace There are also two light poles with three 'bulbs' atop each. I don't know enough to guess whether they were gas-fired or electric. My guess would be electric. If it is electric, that would place the period of the drawing (that is, when the drawing was done) to after 1880 or so. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:50 AM (#1918990) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: mack/misophist I think the lights are gas. Early electric street lights from central France to Russia usually exposed the bulbs and hung down to prevent rain from running into the socket. Something about the building is very familiar. Either it's fameous or there are 50 others like it. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:57 AM (#1918993) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Stilly River Sage If it is a lithograph taken from a book then visiting a dealer of old books might help narrow it down. But once the page is out of the book it becomes "art" and a lot of them won't do anything with it. I found this out recently when helping a friend try to identify a page from what is (it turns out) a rare and quite expensive book (if the book is intact). SRS |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:00 AM (#1918994) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace That makes more sense than my post. |
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26 Dec 06 - 02:09 AM (#1919006) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas I'm guessing a bit, but the resemblence of the fountain in the background left to This one (in Vienna?) suggests that the building is the Vienna State Opera. Here A much larger image that looks like it might be gorgeous stalled repeatedly on me, but with your faster connection perhaps....: Large Image John |
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26 Dec 06 - 04:11 AM (#1919019) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: GUEST,ragdall John, that is what I thought, too. It looks like the Opera house in Vienna, which would fit with Franz Josef. Sorcha, can you get better detail on the lettering on the building? |
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26 Dec 06 - 05:12 AM (#1919032) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas See Postcard Depicting the Vienna State Opera House, circa 1900 by Austrian School. This picture, if one can believe the ca. 1900 attribution, indicates that Sorcha's picture was made before then, before the two equestrian statues were placed on the pedestals at the top front (or that her artist just didn't like drawing horses). A history of the opera house might give an indication of when those two statues were added, which would indicate at least a "latest date" for the original(?). About Vienna indicates "The Vienna State Opera was one of the first buildings to be built on the famous Ringstraße, between 1861 and 1869 in a neo-romantic style." That doesn't necessarily mean that the two equestrian statues were added by 1869, but it does look like, from the size of the pedestals, that they planned for something "of imposing size" there in the original construction. A slight "glitch" in the dating, REMEMBERING THE REBIRTH: Among the most prestigious opera houses in the world, the Vienna State Opera was destroyed by Allied bombs at the very end of World War II. Ten years later it was reconstructed on the original model of 1869. When it reopened on November 5, 1955 with Beethoven's Fidelio conducted by Karl Böhm, it became the symbol of cultural rebirth and the beginning of a new post-war era. This documentary brings together almost all of the main witnesses of the devastating event: Sena Jurinac, who was in the opera house at the moment of the explosion; Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Wilma Lipp and Waldemar Kmentt, who saw the Staatsoper burning and who sang the first notes at the reopening gala ten years later; members of the orchestra and ballet, who recall the tragic moments of March 12, 1945, the reconstruction period and the early days of the new opera house. Sorcha's print certainly represents something pre-1945, but the history I've found thus far only deals with the rebuilding of the house. John |
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26 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM (#1919036) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall There's a view similar to Sorcha's, here |
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26 Dec 06 - 05:20 AM (#1919038) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Sorcha, is it possible that the date is 1858? |
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26 Dec 06 - 08:33 AM (#1919099) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha WOW! That has nailed the building. It is definitely the Vienna Opera. Explains the carrigaes, etc out front. I keep looking at the date..sure looks like a 0 to me. Don't see anyway it could be a 5. Now, maybe, who did it? This is intriguing! Thanks!!!! PS--Anybody know what IS engraved on the opera house??? |
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26 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM (#1919124) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Correction--what WAS engraved on it? I had a thought...1808 was when Napoleon was kicked out of Germany. Could it be that the date was put on as a commorative type thing? I can't find any good pics of the original building, just the reconstructed one. |
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26 Dec 06 - 09:24 AM (#1919126) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: artbrooks Yes...JinK beat me to it. The uniform helmet on the dragoon is almost certainly Austrian. |
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26 Dec 06 - 09:50 AM (#1919129) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: katlaughing I thought it looked like Vienna, but i was searching train stations only. Somewhere my brother has a slide of the opera house. If I can find it, I can read what it has engraved on it. |
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26 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM (#1919130) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha I will have to be an old one, kat. The new one looks like an ad of some sort in place of the engraving. I am hitting a dead end about the 1808. Is a puzzlement. Will try to take close up of the numbers. |
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26 Dec 06 - 10:04 AM (#1919131) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: freda underhill My Austrian son-inlaw is here with my daughter - I'll ask him to have a look! |
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26 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM (#1919140) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas The pic linked by ragdall at 26 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM is similar. The horseback heroes statues are present which puts that pic later(?) than Sorcha's. There are also rails for the horsedrawn trolleys which were not in hers. A different style of street lamps is shown. Ragdalls pic might be dated at least roughly based on years when the horsedrawn streetcars (on rails) were used at the opera house location. If that's of interest, the Vienna Streetcar Museum might be able to provide dates: "In the former Erdberg streetcar depot of the Vienna Transit System, more than 80 historical Vienna streetcars - from an 1871 horse-drawn trolley to the first of the semi-automatic trains of the 1950s - are on display on more than a mile of track." (There appears to be an address for the museum at that page, but I'd have to have a translator.) John |
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26 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM (#1919144) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Luigi Kasimer is the only person I can find who did an etching/lithograph of the Opera. Doesn't appear to be by him. Different view/angle. He was also born too late to do it without the horses. My angle is wrong to see if the Anchor Clock is there, but I'll bet not. |
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26 Dec 06 - 11:08 AM (#1919162) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha OK, folks...this is really weird! We got out the mag. glass....the supposed 0 now looks like a REVERSED 6! Like the stone cutter got it backwards!! 1868 would fit with everything else....I'm going to get Font Master Bill D on this now..... |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM (#1919188) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D well, to my eye it is simply an elaborate 0.... take a look at the images in this image search on the word "fraktur". In my collection of fonts, I have a number which are in the same family as that inscription, but none that I have seen (yet) that use that particular design for the numbers. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM (#1919192) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha OK, Bill. Thanks. Oh, and it could be that it was the engraver who got it backwards too. Seems more likely than the stone mason. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM (#1919193) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: katlaughing The slide will be from the 1960's, Sorcha, should be okay. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:09 PM (#1919196) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Yes, almost looks like a serif but in the wrong place! |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:10 PM (#1919197) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: artbrooks Some views of the old opera house: this one or this. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM (#1919198) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D The inscription says "Fuhrer Franz Joseph" but I have no idea what the date refers to....perhaps just the date of the carving. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:19 PM (#1919199) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha He wasn't even BORN in 08. He was born in 1830, so why his name with that early a date, unless it is commorating kicking Napoleon out, or a mistake somewhere? |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM (#1919211) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: artbrooks The Vienna Opera House was constructed between 1861 and 1869. It sits on the Ring Boulevard, one of Franz Joseph I's more reasonable achievements. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM (#1919215) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D so...the 0/8 is an engraver's mistake? *shrug*.... My impression of the inscription in the scan of Sorcha's engraving is still '1808'... |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:48 PM (#1919219) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Me too! Sure LOOKS like 08. Sorry friends, but this is the kind of stuff that fascinates me. |
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26 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM (#1919222) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D If it was a dedication to THE Franz Joseph, then it may be that the engraver just scratched the wrong way making a '6' and didn't think anyone would even notice..*grin* |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:02 PM (#1919226) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha So, perhaps now I need either an Art or Architecture Historian??? Or, a serious Opera House buff? |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM (#1919237) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha for the Dummies....you CAN enlarge it in Flickr. At the bottom of the pic, to the right, it says see diff sizes....you can see the engraving easily if you choose Large. |
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26 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM (#1919266) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D and, I took the 'large' view, and hit ++++++++ in my browser (Opera) and enlarged it a lot more...) |
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26 Dec 06 - 02:16 PM (#1919269) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin More here than meets the eye. A lot of Masonic and Templar and Cathar imagery hidden in the scene. I suspect a code work of sorts. |
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26 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM (#1919285) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Franz Joseph claimed the title of "Emperor of Austria" from 1804 to 1835. The only "event" of 1808 that I've found was his marriage, on January 6, 1808, to another first cousin, Maria Ludovika of Austria-Este (December 14, 1787 – April 7, 1816) with no issue. She was the daughter of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria-Este and Maria Beatrice d'Este, Princess of Modena. (see Wikipedia) Commissioning of "grand projects" was sometimes a rite of celebration of such marriages, so it is possible that the Staatsoper was ordered to be built by Emporer Franz Joseph in 1808, although most sources say that the actual building of it took place between 1861 and 1869. For a building of this magnitude, that's not an uncommon delay between placing the order and getting the bricks. The architect was one Edouard van der Null, but I don't find much of anything about him except that he died in 1869, the year that the original opera house was reportedly completed. John |
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26 Dec 06 - 02:48 PM (#1919290) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Now wait a minuite....I thought Franz Joseph wasn't born until 1830??? "With a handwritten letter to the Minister of the Interior dated 20 December 1857, the 27-year-old Emperor Franz Josef confirmed his already discussed decision to expand the city of Vienna and for the construction of public buildings." What gives here???? Cluin....euclidate about the Masonic/Templar stuff please? I am not seeing it. |
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26 Dec 06 - 02:49 PM (#1919291) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: catspaw49 "A lot of Masonic and Templar and Cathar imagery hidden in the scene. I suspect a code work of sorts."...........Cluin If you believe that, then I have just the thing to develop your conspiracy Theory!!!! ********************************************************************************************************** STEP RIGHT UP AND GET YOURS TODAY!!!Get the latest in CONSPIRACY THEORIES byCREATING YOUR VERY OWN!!!We provide everything you need in our kit. DOMESTIC CONSPIRACIES have three lists that you can mix and match! Choose from Religious Conspiracies, Governmental Conspiracies, or Business Conspiriacies. You can use any number within a list or mix and match between lists.EVEN BETTER...When you buy our DeLuxe Conspiracy Kits, you can mix and match with the other categories as well. You get INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACIES (with 5 lists), SCIENTIFIC CONSPIRACIES (with 8 lists), and ECONOMIC CONSPIRACIES (with a whopping 14 lists). Order Today and get the new ETHNIC CONSPIRACIES (with 3 lists) ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!!!!!!!!!! When you have our kit, you are free to construct, by mixing and matching Categories and Lists, over 1,275,000 different theories!!!. PLUS IF YOU ORDER OUR PREMIUM UPDATABLE SOFTWARE PACKAGE YOU GET EVEN MORE!!!Not only are you assured of getting monthly updates (renewable each year for a low, low, fee) but you'll get every NEWLY DEVELOPED category or List at half price as they become available!!!BUT THERE'S EVEN MORE!!!!If you order today you get two invaluable tools to make your arguments secure, defendable, and completely unbreakable no matter how ridiculous your conspiracy might be. First, you get the "Faux Logic Creator" which can, with a few simple keystrokes, develop any argument, peppering it with key words and phrases to assure evryone of it's might and right while making no sense whatsoever. You also get the "Straw Man Synthesizer" which adds solid credibility to any argument no matter how stupid.ALL THIS CAN BE YOURS TODAY!!!!!by ordering with ONE YEAR SAME AS CASH ($1500. down and 10 Bucks a month) How can you pass it by? We offer a complete money back guarantee! If you're not satisfied, just return the unused portion of the kit and we'll return the unused portion of your money.GET YOURS TODAY FROM:Fuckyall Bullshit Associates |
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26 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM (#1919294) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha LOL, Spaw!!! Good one! But I'm still curious as to what Cluin sees. Crosses and circles? Quite common. |
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26 Dec 06 - 03:21 PM (#1919302) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Wikipedia, at the link above, says: "Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor (German language: Franz II, Heiliger Römischer Kaiser) also referred to as Francis I, Emperor of Austria (February 12, 1768 – March 2, 1835) was the last Holy Roman Emperor, ruling from 1792 until August 6, 1806, when the Empire was disbanded. He then became Francis I, first Emperor of Austria (ruling from 1804 to 1835). "He was a son of Leopold II of Austria (1747 – 1792) and his wife Maria Luisa of Spain (1745 – 1792)." He had a number of children (by 4 wives), one of whom was Franz Karl (1802-1878) , whose son became Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria. The "son" – whom I haven't looked up, possibly was born ca. 1830? I can't be sure from the pictures posted, but it could say "Emper." rather than Fuhrer? The date "1808" looks quite clear, but then ... The possibility that this was an engraving made from a photograph can't be ruled out. Daguerreotypes of this clarity and tonal range(?) were made ca. 1839, and other processes with better speed followed quickly, esp. up to the time when construction of the Staatsoper occured. Louis Daguerre's "The Louvre from the Left Bank of the Seine" from 1839 is well known and shows comparable detail. The problem with it being from a photo is that long exposures required by the early processes might have blurred people and animals; but it was apparently common enough to transfer the buildings and scenery more or less mechanically, omitting the blurs, and add the moving stuff "artistically" during the creation of the etching plates. Of course artists skilled enough to have done the original image in question in pen and ink are well enough known too. It's just a matter of "which one?". John |
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26 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM (#1919347) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bobert Well, as fir gettin' into what the image is, that's allready been covered very well but as for the medium... Cluin is most certainly correct in that it is probably an etching and I hate to burst anyone's bubble, especially if it's Sorcha's and she thinks that it's worth a bunch of money but it probably isn't... There were thousands of very good etchers in the 19th century and thousands of books containing thousands of etcheings as etchings were the way books were illustrated... This particular one most likely was cut from a book and not produced as a work of art but as an "illustration"... Sorry, but that's my opinion and though I could be wrong I not only have lots of old books filled with these kinds of illustrations but also have a B.A. in "Painting and Printmaking".... One thing fir sure, it ain't no Durer... Bobert |
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26 Dec 06 - 04:51 PM (#1919354) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha giggle...no Bobert...I don't think it's worth a lot of money. I just would like to know more about it. The kind of Hunt I like to do. So, no bubbles burst here. |
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26 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM (#1919388) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Barry Finn Hi Sorcha Another way you may be able to date your picture is by looking at the other pictures they all have a horse & rider over the entrance ways sitting atop of adorned block pedestal bases, yours has the horse & riders missing. Surley there's a waty to date those differences. At first I thought I was sure it my home in a past life but then I realized I was reborn just yesterday. Good Luck with dating this BArry |
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26 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM (#1919402) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha The horses were added in 1876, so it is before that. We have narrowed the date down to from May 25, 1869(opening date) to pre 1876. I'd also like to know who did the original if possible. |
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26 Dec 06 - 06:12 PM (#1919432) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin `Spaw got it. Like the Civil War "Thunderbird" corpse photo. |
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26 Dec 06 - 06:12 PM (#1919433) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: GUEST,.gargoyle OPERA HOUSE 1806 makes good sense. Theatre has been important to Vienna and the year 1806 is significant there was a State Theatre House before the Opera House. GOOD - Another floundering "founder of BS"- to florish with a tune and history.
Words by Haschka
Haschka Hymn Gott erhalte Franz, den Kaiser,
God keep Francis the emperor,
First performed February 12, 1797 for the birthday of the emperor in all Viennese theatres. �The Emperor's Hymn' would become as familiar as the theme of the German national anthem, which was to become one of his most popular tunes.
Haschka Hymn
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_Deutscher_Nation Holy Roman Realm (Heiliges R�misches Reich) was the official name for the rule range of the Roman-German emperors from the Middle Ages (962) to the year 1806. The Holy Roman Realm of the German nation expired on 6 August 1806 with the resignation of the realm-crown by emperor Franz II, Duke of Austria. (He was briefly a "double emporer" Franz II of Germany AND emporer Franz the First of Austria - 1804-1806) he continued on as Emporer of Austria) - In otherwords Napoleon caused the resignation of Germany's emperor on August 06, 1806 and ended the Holy Roman realm...however Franz continued in 1806 to be emperor of Austria...you might say that Austria gained a FULL TIME emporer in 1806 and Hofburg has been the home.
It is a delightful twisted history - even richer than those of France and England. Because of references in the Bible's - Daniel - It was believed that The Holy Roman Realm MUST NOT expire since this would hasten the anit-Christ's kingdom (Napoleon?/Third Reich?)
RE: your engraving - like tracing royal lineage let us follow theatres in Vienna. Lots of pictures since you don't like to read: STATE OPERA HOUSE "Wiener Staatsoper" - 1863 - to current
PEOPLE'S OPERA HOUSE - "Volksoper" - "Kaiserjubil�ums-Stadttheater" 1898-current.
THEATRE ON THE WEIN "Theater an der Wien" 1798 - CURRENT
What a history of performances.
What are your engravings dimensions - that will give an indication of the process (stone or steel) and if it may be from a book. Be careful, ASTONDING reproductions are now available, especially behind glass, and delightful papers including stretchable canvas. A Cannon iPF9000 just came out 5 foot by 40 foot possible. The price on twelve colors just dropped dramaticly this month. I will invest within the next year in a 5000.
As long as you enjoy - why ask? Typical of Americans many things have no value to them until they are "Road Show" or "E-Bay" priced.
Sincerely, |
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26 Dec 06 - 06:27 PM (#1919456) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin Antiques Road Show, here we come! |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:04 PM (#1919486) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace Vienna Opera House. |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:28 PM (#1919502) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha I don't CARE what it's WORTH!!!! I'm curious, and like old things. Is that OK? And, looking at some of the newer photos, it appears that the lettering IS still there, and has been gilded as well. Dimensions are 15"x10.5" What I can measure with the mat over it. Bit large to have been cut from a book, I'd think. Paper 'looks' old but I know how easy that is to fake, esp under glass. The only reason I'd ever take something to the Road Show would be to find out what it is, how old, and where it came from. NOT what it's worth. |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:41 PM (#1919509) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Looking at an enlarged view of Sorcha's enlargements, especially in the sky area, the texture shows as regularly spaced dashed lines, of constant width, straight and parallel, with the light/darkness from variations in the "length of the dashes." This implies the use of a "graver's wheel," as would have been used to engrave a plate for an etching. Such tools were - at least according to descriptions I've seen - commonly used in engraving such plates; but I haven't heard of much use of similar tools in pen and ink drawing, although similar ones did exist and are/were fairly commonly used e.g. in mapmaking where regular "dashed lines" are wanted. Usually a tool of this kind had a "marking point" coupled to a wheel that rolled on the surface. As the wheel rotated it raised and lowered the point to produce a mechanically precise line of dashes. Different wheels produced different ratios of dash to gap. To allow for "overstriking" some varied the dash/gap length, maintaining constant ratio between the two. (Sharp edges and too precise mechanical rendering produces objectionable "edges" and "periodic patterning" in a textured area.) Since the line width is close to the apparent pixel dimension in Sorcha's images, some care must be taken to avoid taking pixellation for graver's lines; but the sky lines, where such a tool would be most likely used are pretty distinct here, while the dome areas, where "freehand scratching" would be more likely don't show the same kind of texture. Based on this "clue(?)" the picture is most definitely an engraving - but an opinion from someone more intimately familiar with reproduction processes of the era than I am would be most welcome. John |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:49 PM (#1919518) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bobert I'm sorry I brought up the "worth" thing, Sorchie... Hey, if you like it then that's all that counts... Worth, when it comes to art, is a joke anyways... Nice print and that's the story I'm sticken with for now until someone produces any evidence to the contrarty and then I may have a new 'n improved story... Did I mention that it's a very nice print??? Bobert |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:50 PM (#1919519) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: catspaw49 "The only reason I'd ever take something to the Road Show would be to find out what it is, how old, and where it came from. NOT what it's worth." Shambles went to one of the Antique Road Shows and exposed himself. The appraiser did give it a good look however and said, "The color and tiny size would indicate white, anglo-saxon, protestant roots......and very, very,small roots at that! It looks pretty sad and flacid so it probably is well over a hundred years old.......and to be completely truthful it appears to be totally worthless." Sounded right to me........... Spaw |
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26 Dec 06 - 07:52 PM (#1919522) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Grin. And, yes, John, Your analysis of the lines seems correct. |
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26 Dec 06 - 11:00 PM (#1919645) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin It's a nice piece, Sorcha. Enjoy it. |
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27 Dec 06 - 10:59 PM (#1920291) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha I am, thank you. I'm going to bump this just once to see if anymore ideas come out of the woodwork. Thanks everybody! I know a lot more than I did. |
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27 Dec 06 - 11:13 PM (#1920300) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: GUEST,art appreeciator It'd make a nice target. Give you a buck for it. |
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28 Dec 06 - 01:41 AM (#1920343) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Grrrrrrrrr!! Flickr won't let me in. The message I get is "Flickr is having a massage." I wanted to send a copy of the closeup to a friend in Vienna and ask if she knows what the lettering is and the significance thereof. |
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28 Dec 06 - 03:55 AM (#1920375) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall From: Bill D - PM Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM The inscription says "Fuhrer Franz Joseph" but I have no idea what the date refers to....perhaps just the date of the carving. That would be strange, because he was an emperor, not a fuhrer". In German, I think it would be, "Kaiser Franz Josef". I think the top word looks like "Kaiser", (look at the dot on the "i"), but "Josef" is clearly spelled "Joseph". Maybe it wasn't done by an Austrian? |
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28 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM (#1920407) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas The only way to know for sure is to ask the opera house. Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor (German language: Franz II, Heiliger Römischer Kaiser) also referred to as Francis I, Emperor of Austria (February 12, 1768 – March 2, 1835) was the last Holy Roman Emperor, ruling from 1792 until August 6, 1806, when the Empire was disbanded. He then became Francis I, first Emperor of Austria (ruling from 1804 to 1835). My own guess would be that the inscription refers to him: Francis I, Emperor of Austria. Later in that article: "After 1806 he used the titles: "We, Francis the First, by the grace of God Emperor of Austria; King of Jerusalem, Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia and Lodomeria; Archduke of Austria; Duke of Lorraine, Salzburg, Würzburg, Franconia, Styria, Carinthia and Carniola; Grand Duke of Cracow; Grand Prince of Transylvania; Margrave of Moravia; Duke of Sandomir, Masovia, Lublin, Upper and Lower Silesia, Auschwitz and Zator, Teschen and Friule; Prince of Berchtesgaden and Mergentheim; Princely Count of Habsburg, Gorizia and Gradisca and of the Tyrol; and Margrave of Upper and Lower Lusatia and in Istria"." That's a bit much to ask a mason to chisel onto a little block of granite. Note that all of these names/titles are "English equivalents" and don't necessarily represent how one of home town chiselers would have put the title in marble. "Names in other languages: German: Franz II./I., Czech: František I., Slovak: František I., Hungarian: I. Ferenc, Croatian: Franjo I., Italian: Francesco II./I., Slovenian Franc." I would expect that this list is not necessarily complete. A Genealogy of the Imperial and Royal Family of Austria-Hungary1: House Habsburg-Lothringen gives: "HIM Franz Joseph Karl Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia (Born as: HI & RH Franz Joseph Karl Prince Imperial and Archduke of Austria, Prince Royal of Hungary and Bohemia, Prince of Tuscany) (Since March 1st, 1792:) HIM Franz II Joseph Karl Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King in Germany, of Jerusalem, Hungary and Bohemia, Archduke of Austria (Since August 11th, 1804:) HIM Franz II Joseph Karl Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, Emperor of Austria, King in Germany, of Jerusalem, Hungary and Bohemia * Florence, February 12th, 1768 † Vienna, March 2nd, 1835 Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Milan, March 1st, 1792 (deposed as Duke of Milan: May 9th, 1796; abdicated as Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire: August 6th, 1806); Grand Duke of Cracow, October 24th, 1795; Duke of Friaul, Lord of Cattaro, 1797; Emperor of Austria, August 11th, 1804; Duke of Milan, April 28th, 1814 - April 7th, 1815; King of Lombardia-Venice, April 7th, 1815; King of Illyria, Duke of Salzburg, Duke of Ragusa and Zara, Prince of Triente and Brixen, June 10th, 1815" Although the histories gloss over it, his "given name" was Franz Joseph Karl, and it does appear as "Franz Joseph I," albeit perhaps incidentally, and perhaps briefly, and it may have varied in different localities. 1808 was the year in which he married (his third of four royal wives), which would have been an occasion for changes in titles for both parties to a royal marriage. The stone may mark his assuming the title Kaiser?/Fuhrer?/Emporer? Franz Joseph I in that year. It is possible that on the occasion of adding a few domains, he adopted the Franz Joseph, as by that time he had a (6 y.o.) son named Franz Karl. It also is likely that the histories gloss over his usage of "Franz Joseph I," since the same name also was used by his grandson. Historians have adopted that name as the "standard reference" to the grandson, and use another of this man's names to make clear which is meant, but both are recorded as having been called "Franz Joseph I" (preceded and followed by different lists of titles). (But of course I'm only guessing.) John |
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28 Dec 06 - 06:10 AM (#1920409) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas I lost a link when I copied/pasted in and out of Word a couple of times while organizing the above post. The first line of the above (28 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM) post should have started off with the Wiki link: Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor. John |
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14 Jan 07 - 07:10 AM (#1936068) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Sorcha, I heard from my friend in Vienna. He went down to the Opera House with binoculars to look for you. He wrote:
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14 Jan 07 - 11:17 AM (#1936196) Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas An additional bit of trivia that I encountered was that the "new" opera house was so severely criticized by the public that the principal architect, Edouard van der Null, committed suicide at about the time that the (original) building was completed. Note that details are sparse, and although the article I found implies that it was because of the criticism, that's not necessarily a documented conclusion. The guy appears to have been subject to some "strangeness" of personality. John |
