|
26 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM (#1919383) Subject: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Scoville This has turned into a running joke amongst myself and several friends. The short answer is that I don't believe in astrology. The long answer is that I would never base any major life decisions on astrology but I find it amusing and must confess that all the attributes (and flaws) attributed to Cancerians apply to me--moody, sentimental, insecure, sensitive, blah blah blah. Worse, my closest friends are two Scorpios, another Cancer, a Pisces, and a Taurus. What about the rest of y'all? Do you think your astrological attributes describe you? |
|
26 Dec 06 - 05:46 PM (#1919407) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Gizmo I tend to believe it cynically. I am not a typical gemini, and questioned the basis of it all, I then discovered alot more about the subject, and got pretty good at guessing peoples signs from their behaviour or something they said. It is not just dependant on your star sign, in your case Cancer, mine Gemimi, but where all other planets were in position at your time of birth. There are many horoscopes which do not apply to me, but there are definitely some astrologers who are worth their mettle. On the otherhand, like Geminis I tend to be able to talk glibly when needed to, love socialising, have been called flirty - which I deny hotly, and can for life of me never make a decision, without mulling over the consequences of what if........ Other than that I am more taurean in my nature. I could explain - but it would take an age, I perhaps bore everyone. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM (#1919410) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Liz the Squeak I'm ruled by Mercury... I have "an unusual ability to reason that is lacking in other signs". I "lean towards the logical; find it easier to think than to do anything else." I "have a computer like memory" (with a couple of disks missing) but when it comes to something close to my heart, such as love or compassion, I "find it hard to let the other person know and can thus appear to be aloof and cold"... I "have a tendency to get out of sorts and become 'picky' with those around me which makes for some unforgiven hard feelings in the future". That'll be the git I sit opposite then... "You can be argumentative, critical, nervous and tense." Can I, really??? In short, I'm a cantankerous old nitpicker with security issues... live with it! LTS |
|
26 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM (#1919417) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Liz the Squeak Of course, in the Chinese horoscope, I'm a dragon... much more like me! LTS |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:01 PM (#1919418) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Gizmo Bloody typical Virgo then, have a few of those in my family too. [grins then ducks for cover] As soon as I read your Liz, I remembered your b'day was a day before my eldests. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:05 PM (#1919424) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Mooh Suppose so. Pisces...I fish, have always fished. Fish representative of Christ and I'm a Christian (not to worry folks, not one of THOSE Christians!). What else? Peace, Mooh. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:05 PM (#1919425) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Paul from Hull Virgo, Liz? Thats what I am (supposed to be) too.... |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:06 PM (#1919426) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: mack/misophist I don't believe either and I was shocked to see how well they had me pegged. But only for the last 15 - 20 years. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:07 PM (#1919427) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Paul from Hull Oooops! Should have refreshed the thread before I posted! |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:27 PM (#1919455) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 Yup .... I'm pisces, my wife is also (5 days younger than me). We both have the attributes of pisces to the 'T'. I was a bit of a skeptic until we had an astrologer read our charts ... his feedback was incredibly amazing. biLL |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:29 PM (#1919460) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Anne Lister Yup. I'm a very typical Aries and the bits of the character that don't quite match can be explained by rising sign (Aquarius) and moon (Cancer). I've had my chart done twice and was quite taken aback at how much the astrologers could tell about me even if they only knew my date of birth. And in Chinese astrology I'm a dragon, which is perfect, too. Can't explain it logically, but there it is. Anne |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:40 PM (#1919465) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:43 PM (#1919468) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Epona Oh, I'm an Aries alright... :) E |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:45 PM (#1919470) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin Horny? |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:57 PM (#1919477) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Epona Interesting...I was thinking stubborn. HAHA. E |
|
26 Dec 06 - 06:57 PM (#1919478) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Becca72 "Your need for independence should not be neglected as it is essential that you develop and sustain the right lifestyle. In many ways you are the quiet, retiring person who prefers his or her privacy even though you have a reputation for being friendly, this is linked mainly to the fact that you always want to be helpful so anyone that needs it will be able to look to you. You will approach other peoples problems as you do your own, without emotion, logically and detached. As long as your views and privacy are respected you make a wonderful friend." This is me pretty much to a T. I wouldn't base any major life-altering decisions on it, but most of the things I read peg me as a pretty typical Aquarius. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:01 PM (#1919481) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Liz the Squeak I think my problem is that I have a Scorpio rising, which makes for interesting times. Apparently this week is going to be shitty for us Virgos. LTS |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:01 PM (#1919482) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D oh, indeed my sign DOES fit me! As I have noted before (we had a LONG 'discussion' of this last year) I once had a friend ask for my birthday, so she could 'read' me....I said, "well, it's May 20, but I really don't put much stock in those things." "Um...hmmmm" she said, scanning her books, "That's JUST what your horoscope says you would say!" Ya' can't win. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:04 PM (#1919485) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Gizmo In my family more than half are cancarians. This includes among others, my mum and dad - who sahre a birthday 1 year apart. My maternal grandmother, her mother and her mother before her. All born early July. Then of course there is my daughter. Practically everyone who has a bearing on my life is cancerian, and at times I feel rather drowned out (pun intended) by them. But I seem to get on with them, most likely to most of my birthchart being in the sign of Taurus. I have Leo rising which gives me my grrrr and love of performance, Taurus in Venus which gives me a good voice - apparently, but I do enjoy signing. I also share a birthday with Bob Dylan, the musician, and we both have moon in Taurus. Unfortunately I can't pen songs the way he does. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:19 PM (#1919493) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: kendall Becca 72, that is right on the money for you! I'm a Taurus but I'm not stubborn. I have firm opinions. I get along well with Virgo and I've only met one Scorpio that I didn't like. Actually, I don't believe in this stuff...we Taurians are skeptical you know. My friend, Marshall Dodge used to say, "I don't believe a word of this stuff. The hell of it is, It's all true"! |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:20 PM (#1919495) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D Most everything's true, if you pick the right context. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:22 PM (#1919498) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace Yes. All twelve of them. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:22 PM (#1919499) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: bobad That's true. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:32 PM (#1919505) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D Yep...seems to me I remember a test where some people went to several different astrologers, giving a different birthday each time, and got readings that seemed taylor-made for them. No matter what you said, the analysis 'fit'. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 07:59 PM (#1919525) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Doug Chadwick So if I tell you that I am the sort of person who thinks that astrology is a load of cobblers, can anyone tell me which star sign I fit into? DC |
|
26 Dec 06 - 08:00 PM (#1919527) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Ebbie That could be, Bill D. We all are many things and at different times and at different ages we've been all of them, I imagine. That said, I say that I tend not to put any stock in it but I have noticed that when I know that someone shares a birth sign with me I frequently feel that I know how they will react to an event or even to something that is said. I have three friends in Juneau who each have their birthday in the same week as I (ranging from the 25th to the 28th)although our ages vary widely. As it happens, all three of them are foreign-born ( used to tutor them in English) but we are all very much alike. I could wish that I was as smart as one of them and I hope that I'm not quite as dogmatic as another of them... My father was also a Saggie(as I am) and a far cry from a believer in the zodiac. But one day when I showed him on paper the character and attributes that he would be expected to have, he read it and then grunted, Looks pretty good to me. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 08:14 PM (#1919537) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: katlaughing All three of my sisters and I are Aries, but there are a lot of ways in which we are not alike, at all. Of course, as someone said, it goes much more into all of the other aspects at the time of one's birth. They were all in April, while mine is in March. We do share general characteristics such as being really good at starting things. I believe it can be a tool in being aware of how things may be for us, but I do not use it to any extent, or bet my life on it. kat |
|
26 Dec 06 - 08:27 PM (#1919548) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: catspaw49 I'm a Testes with Penis rising. I read mine and it says, "You have monstrous titanium balls and your Johnson looks like a baby's arm with an apple in it's fist." Pretty much right on the money! Spaw |
|
26 Dec 06 - 08:28 PM (#1919549) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace Thanks for sharing. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 09:30 PM (#1919593) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 Been into the Christmas swill a bit too much have ya Spaw? biLL |
|
26 Dec 06 - 09:35 PM (#1919597) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: catspaw49 WATCH OUTbiLLorI'llFONT YOUR ASSUP one side anddown theOTHERSpaw |
|
26 Dec 06 - 09:38 PM (#1919600) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 Holy f@ck! I'm gonna go out and get bifocals tomorrow. Tinted ones at that. biLL |
|
26 Dec 06 - 09:45 PM (#1919601) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace Make sure the frames are square. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 09:46 PM (#1919603) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 Oh ... yeah, thanks for that advice Peace. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 10:28 PM (#1919625) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: kendall I think you will find that the Enneagram is much closer to the truth. That is a book which was created by the Sufis. It's a study of different basic personality groups.This is not hukum, it is widely used by reputable psychologists.Is anyone else familiar with this? |
|
26 Dec 06 - 10:34 PM (#1919631) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 Kendall ... do you mean the Enneagram? No, I'm not familiar but would like to know more about it. biLL |
|
26 Dec 06 - 10:45 PM (#1919638) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: EBarnacle I signed on because I thought that the zodiac in question was an inflatible boat. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 11:21 PM (#1919655) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: katlaughing Kendall, is THIS what you mean? They have two free sample tests available. Judging by the results of both, I am a Type 7. It does seem pretty accurate. |
|
26 Dec 06 - 11:21 PM (#1919656) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: JohnInKansas Kendall recites the standard cliche about Taurians: "I'm a Taurus but I'm not stubborn." I've never met a Taurus whom I considered stubborn. People fail to recognize that our principal characteristic is unlimited PATIENCE while we wait for those of lesser abilities to figure out that we were right to begin with. John |
|
26 Dec 06 - 11:27 PM (#1919658) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Scoville, checking in Crap--my Chinese zodiac is the snake and that seems to apply pretty well, too. Rising sign is Taurus. Not really a surprise, either, although they're sort of similar to Cancer anyway. My college boyfriend was Taurus to a "T": Unbelievably stubborn but secretly cuddly, and capable of putting away enormous plates of pierogies at dinner. My best friend is a Scorpio but seems to lack the potential stalker qualities. Whew. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:00 AM (#1919667) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Little Hawk I don't care one way or the other about it, Scoville. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:02 AM (#1919668) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin That's just because they don't have a chimp as a zodiac sign. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:04 AM (#1919669) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin Or a dachshund. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 02:53 AM (#1919726) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Ebbie JohninKansas, a dearly loved friend of mine was a Taurus. Like you, he wasn't stubborn either. Just - well, you be the judge: A few months before, he had met my brother in law and when I showed him some recent pictures I pointed out my brother in law to him. He raised an eyebrow, scanning the picture intently. Hmmm, he said. I'm not sure that IS Allen. I said, He's been my brother in law for 37 years. Take my word for it: That is Allen. Another time I ran into him on the street. He yelled at me to wait then strode over to me with a birthday card for me. I'm sorry to be late with this, he said, but I DID have it in my car. I said, That is very sweet of you but actually my birthday is not until NEXT month. He said, It's not October 28? No, I said. It's November 28. He said, uncomfortably, Are you sure? :) |
|
27 Dec 06 - 08:58 AM (#1919805) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: jacqui.c I'm Leo with Sagittarius rising and the moon and four other planets in Leo. I've had my chart done and it comes pretty close, according to those who know me. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 09:24 AM (#1919816) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: fat B****rd I'm a Cancerian but usually I just get by the best I can. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 09:34 AM (#1919826) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: kendall Yes, that's it. Maybe a clone will correct the spelling. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 09:38 AM (#1919828) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: John MacKenzie I've got nothing rising at the moment. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM (#1919830) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: kendall On the Chinese zodiak I'm a dog. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 10:07 AM (#1919835) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin Bad boy, kendall! BAD boy! |
|
27 Dec 06 - 10:17 AM (#1919843) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: TIA Recent actual experiment (being written up by a student as a science fair project): Obtained the actual birth date, place and time for 35 students, grades 6 through 8. Got detailed personality profiles from a source recommended by a true believer in astrology. For each student, got a "correct" one, and three others -- wrong date, wrong place, wrong gender (with all other data correct). Each student was given their four profiles, and spent a week pondering them, showing them to friends and family, and deciding which was the "best fit". Final score: out of 35 students, 7 picked the "correct" profile. Darn close to the 25% expected for random chance. Best/most revealing student comment: as we discussed the results, one of the students said "I guess we just aren't very good at astrology" - implying that the astrology must be correct, they just weren't able to "read" it properly! |
|
27 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM (#1919844) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D several folks have said, approximately, "It seems pretty close" but the point is, they are DESIGNED to "seem pretty close". If you accidently read the wrong page in the book, and give yourself the next chart, you will be able to find much stuff in the 'wrong' chart that 'seems pretty close'. Our minds work by identifying matching characteristics and abstracting from them. Almost everyone has some of the properties of each sign.....This is another way of saying "we see what we expect to see". The other psychological trait that supports this is that when people see many others nodding in agreement, and see many expensive book analyzing the field, they feel like there 'must' be something to it, and thus feel obligated to 'find' agreement, and look even harder to see matching descriptions. It is a perfectly natural thing to do, and in its way, much harder (and also, more fun!) than resisting. All this is why people would rather read the supporting arguments than sift thru tedious, boring tracts explaining why it CAN'T work, and which cite careful studies showing little or no connection. As for Ennaeagrams....this seems like just a version of the Myers/Briggs personality inventory....which has a better chance of a relatively accurate description, becaue YOU tell THEM about yourself, and they categorize the results. Even then, it can only be an approximation, and can't 'predict' how an individual will perform or react in a given circumstance. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 10:35 AM (#1919860) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin Astrobabble Rorshach tests. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 10:57 AM (#1919872) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Becca72 On the Chinese zodiak I'm a rat, as are my eldest sister and both her sons. 12 is a good number for me. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 10:57 AM (#1919873) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D "Well, Doctor, you are the one with the dirty pictures!" |
|
27 Dec 06 - 10:59 AM (#1919876) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Alice Consider this - Astrology Fact Sheet |
|
27 Dec 06 - 11:00 AM (#1919878) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin Yep. About the way I see it, too. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 11:09 AM (#1919884) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Alice When I was at our local planetarium this summer, the star show had a great presentation on how different cultures in history have assigned completely opposite meanings to the varied pictures they see in the dot-to-dot star sky.... then neatest part was when they rotated to a different perspective in space instead of seeing the stars from earth. The stars are not on a flat plane, so of course if you are not looking from earth, the stars do not create dot to dot pictures the way we see them on earth. People will cling to their beliefs, though, even when presented with the facts. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM (#1919895) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin From that great fount of esoteric wisdom, "The Simpsons": Pepe: Tell me more! I want to know all the constellations. Homer: Well, there's... Jerry the Cowboy. And that big dipper-looking thing is Alan... the Cowboy. Pepe: Oh, Papa Homer, you are so learnéd. Homer: Heh heh heh.... Learn'd, son. It's pronounced learn'd. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 11:55 AM (#1919919) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: terrier Maybee we could work out catters birth sign by the content of their posts? But then it's probably me just being a bloody Scorpio! :=) |
|
27 Dec 06 - 11:59 AM (#1919922) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Alice Terrier, That's funny! ;-) Can anyone guess my rising sign? |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM (#1919925) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin "Slippery When Wet"? |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:06 PM (#1919926) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Alice tsk, tsk |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM (#1919927) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin *shrug* |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:16 PM (#1919931) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Scoville Ha ha!--astrology has reached the level of [dis]respect accorded pseudosciences?? I had no idea! I was thinking more along the lines of "novelty". Like the first Blogthings. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:37 PM (#1919951) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin Your link has been fixed, Alice. It used to lead to a "not found" page. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM (#1919957) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Alice Thanks, Cluin. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM (#1919959) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin I didn't do it. (not a clone) Just pointing it out. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 07:21 PM (#1920185) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Gizmo as for the free enneagram, I tried it and the answer was that I am a number 3, 5, and 7 personality simutaneously, and recommended I buy the full version for a more indepth analysis. Chinese astrology wise I am a goat, my son is a rat and my daughter is a rabbit - by jove she can bunny! Both of them rodents. And my son and his friends at school have little rat packs. All three of my uncles are dogs. There was a time, I had a page for someone elses astro chart sent to me by mistake, as I was reading through the personality, it wasn't making any sense about me at all, on closer inspection it was for someone who is an aquarius. Apart from liking to socialise (a feature of most air signs i.e. aquarius, gemini and libra) none of the other traits described me at all. Also, by the same reputable astrologer, my friend had incredibly personal traits and occurances which happened in her childhood which came up in her chart analysis, mine was very much true to my childhood, yet had we swapped our papers it would have meant nothing to each other. By the way - were the students adults, or teenagers, as this can depend on the results you get back, as well as the astrologer who sets these descriptions out. There are many people out there who do not know what they are writing/ interpreting, and in all senses of the word, pulling a fast one, but equally there are those who know their stuff. |
|
27 Dec 06 - 07:30 PM (#1920200) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: bobad "Both of them rodents" FYI rats belong to the order Rodentia, rabbits to the order Lagomorpha, rabbits are not rodents (and they are tastier too). |
|
27 Dec 06 - 07:47 PM (#1920209) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Anne Lister I suspect this is always a discussion with an angle, depending on prejudices held. If you really don't want to believe that astrology can be accurate you're most unlikely to spend the money on getting a proper chart drawn up by anyone who knows what they're doing, so you're very unlikely to read anything that convinces you. I have been persuaded that there's some truth in it by the two proper charts that I have had in the past (the first of which was done as a favour, but done well) which have both pointed up features of my childhood and thought patterns which wouldn't be applicable to many people but very true for me. I've also read other people's charts which wouldn't have suited me at all. I've just had a go with the Enneagram and was totally frustrated by the choices within the questions - it was mildly accurate for me (a 7) but very off for my husband. But to each their own - whatever works for you, works for you and I'm certainly not going to attempt to convert anyone! Anne |
|
27 Dec 06 - 09:08 PM (#1920237) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Little Hawk Good point about the chimp and the dachshund, Cluin. ;-) That might make a difference allright. |
|
28 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM (#1920729) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Firecat Accurate bits in bold... The outgoing, positive polarity of Capricorn is applied on a practical basis to his or her everyday life. The negativity of this sign gives the children of Capricorn the ability to withdraw from a situation and wait for the right opportunity to further their ambitions. One type of this sign is like the sure footed mountain goat, that is forever climbing and attaining greater heights. The other type is the domesticated goat that is kept on a lead and is forever striving to do something but can never quite make it. Positive Capricorns are reliable and along with other good attributes, they have a dry but good sense of humor. Their positive traits are being practical, ambitious, prudent efficient, persistent andpatient. They are ruled by the concentrated energy of Saturn. They can be very cold and distant, pessimistic, almost intolerably conventional. Time is always of the utmost importance to them due to Saturns influence. They are slow to develop, requiring more time than othersbut at middle age they seem to reach a point where it seems they will never age; not changing for decades. The worst problem that Capricorn seems to have is psychological in nature. Their wavering self confidence can greatly disturb them as one minute they could rule a nation and the next, self doubt sets in and they feel inadequate for the most minor jobs; they are comfortable in some spheres of activity and not so in others. They may feel sure they can manage and cope with their job but have not the confidence to think they can establish and maintain a personal relationship. This is a direct cause of not being able to see themselves as clearly as others see them so they underestimate their own abilities. They should accept compliments from others and learn to believe them. Problems may cause some digestive difficulties which can lead to ulcers or skin disorders. Setting a stress alleviating regimen will go far to preventing these disorders and make you more efficient in your endeavors, thus building your own self image up to where it should be. You can be too easily depressed, even by minor setbacks and annoyances. You should get more exercise to reduce the tension as well as making music a part of your life, either playing or listening. Use your inherent rational qualities and make room in your life for the spiritual as well as the material. Riiiiight! |
|
28 Dec 06 - 04:38 PM (#1920756) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Slag Astrology, the manager of Astronomy! Aster = Star(s) and logos = word or the study thereof. Nomy = names or naming. It seems to me they got it backwards. Astrology is the study of the Stars and Astronomy is the naming or even perhaps the Law of the stars (nomos = law). Geeh Mooh. I don't know what one of "THOSE" Christians are that I should be worried. Maybe I'm one! Well, I am a Christian, the kind that believes the Bible ( where else are you gonna find out about Christ?). I am also an amature astronomer, among other things and I give no credence to astrology. HOWEVER! I am absolutely pegged by my horoscope! I am about the most typical Sun sign Taurus, birth sign Aries (and dominated by Venus) that you will ever meet. I would almost chalk it all up to probability except there in the ancient Book of Job it does mention the "Bands of Orion" and the "Sweet influence of the Pliades (the Seven Sisters [or 'Subaru' in Japanese]). It also claims the God is the one who hangs the Earth upon nothing! That's pretty advanced for it's day! And what exactly were the Magi following? They had seen His star in the East! nonetheless, lots of fun and food for thought! |
|
28 Dec 06 - 10:02 PM (#1921003) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: kendall I have no faith in astrology, but the Enneagram is not a parlor trick. You tell them nothing. What you do is go through the basic personality types and I guarantee you will find your own personality. Now, until you have done this, you can't know what you are talking about. |
|
28 Dec 06 - 10:06 PM (#1921005) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace FYI. An introduction to it. |
|
28 Dec 06 - 10:42 PM (#1921026) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: bobad I've been * romantic and imaginative. * pragmatic and down to earth. I couldn't get past the first question because I have at different times been both. That is the problem I have with these types of questionaires, you are supposed to make a choice where often there is no choice to be made. |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:00 PM (#1921034) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Slag Yeah Peace, I'm really split down the middle on a lot of those. There are some other similar test out there that allow a little more lattitude than this one and do a pretty good job of nailing your pesonality type (assuming that you have one, that is!). |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:04 PM (#1921039) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace Me too. I got to about question 6 and was in the same dilemma. However, maybe Kendall has more to say--that test was a sampler I think. |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:27 PM (#1921049) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 I did that test and it hit it right on. The Peacemaker #9. biLL |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:30 PM (#1921053) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace The Peacemaker. |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:32 PM (#1921054) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 damned right it is! biLL |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:33 PM (#1921056) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace OK by me! |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:38 PM (#1921060) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: number 6 That was the Type 8 ... coming out of me with that response. |
|
28 Dec 06 - 11:39 PM (#1921061) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Peace LOLOL |
|
29 Dec 06 - 08:33 AM (#1921240) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: kendall I'm a "9" |
|
29 Dec 06 - 08:45 AM (#1921249) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Rapparee My Ennengram said I was a tie between Types 4, 5, and 9. Really. |
|
30 Dec 06 - 01:59 AM (#1921920) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Seamus Kennedy I'm a Feces, and consequently think it's all shite. Seamus |
|
30 Dec 06 - 03:28 AM (#1921948) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Slag 7,4,5 |
|
30 Dec 06 - 11:32 AM (#1922239) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Alice I resist any system that categorizes people and their personalities. I have changed so many times over my lifetime that I am a perfect example of why astrology is bunkum.... and I used to be an astrologer (see my point?). Humans are far more unique, complex and changeable than any zodiacal system can describe. Alice |
|
30 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM (#1922266) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D it....*gulp*...MUST be true....I AM a Taurus, and I just BOUGHT a Taurus! What more proof do we need? I shall consult the stars immediately to see what brand of gasoline I should buy! |
|
30 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM (#1922296) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Metchosin Well I can see by your chart that you will be shucking out a few Bills..... My family maintains that I am a Virgo that has seriously gone off the rails, mind you, they also class me as an obsessive compulsive with ADD too. Perhaps its all true, as I turned out as a 1, 6, 7 the other day when I did the test and I'm sure if I did it today it would turn our quite differently, in sync with my mood. Joking aside, I agree with Alice. |
|
30 Dec 06 - 01:03 PM (#1922311) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Slag Brothers! Come see! I am drinking stars!!! |
|
31 Dec 06 - 07:20 AM (#1923016) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus To come back to the question,(and without criticising the question itself), my HOROSCOPE is the hand I was dealt, and I'm learning from my chart how to play it better. What a chart (horoscope) can do is not pigeon-hole but remind me what my unique process could be, along with Transits and Progressions. But enough of explanation, unless anyone asks for more. I'm a Cancerian, and I do have the emotionality (tho' controlled by Saturn conjuncting my Sun), nurturing, off-the-wallness, natural defensiveness, insecurity, homelovingness. I have Gemini rising, consequently the jokes, the large collection of books, love of writing and conversation,and sarcasm, tho' with a trine from Saggie-ruling Jupiter, in an optimistic way. With a Libra moon, I hesitate long in deciding, and have a love of the arts in general,music in particular. With a bowl pattern of planets,I go on and on collecting, supported by my Sun. Some posters are under the misapprehension that your sun-sign(popularly called the 'star-sign') has a simple, one-for -one correspondence with you. As Alice will know, you have to look at the whole chart. Someone with just the Sun in Capricorn is going to be a different animal from someone with the Sun and 2 or 3 other planets in Capricorn, the latter far more Capricornian. Some have the idea it's a guessing game. It isn't. The North Texas Skeptics don't appear to have studied astrology. To repeat the famous, possibly apocryphal, exchange, Halley,"There's nothing to astrology, is there Newton." Newton,"Sir,I have studied the matter,you haven't." And just to show how mainstream media have an agenda, the BBC have a programme In Our Time, hosted be Melvyn Bragg. These are 40-minute discussions on some topic, usually with academics in the relevant field. One was on the history of astronomy, another on Isaac Newton. Despite the facts that astronomy grew out of astrology, and that Newton did more on occult matters like astrology than on maths, the 80 minutes of programme managed not to mention astrology once. Rewriting history by omission of what most listeners would already be ignorant. And a heartfelt Happy and Fulfilling New Year from a pessimistically (Saturn conjunct Sun,Mars square Mercury in fixed signs) optimist (Jupiter sextile Sun, Jupiter trine Mars ). Ivor PS. The previous astrology thread was hardly as long as e.g.Closed Threads pt.2, David Lynch and 11/9, etc.etc.(Defensive Cancerian) |
|
31 Dec 06 - 09:23 AM (#1923099) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* I have an Aries Sun, Taurus Moon and Gemini Rising. At first glance, this combination suggests a self-absorbed, restless self-starter who loves chit-chit, discovery, pioneering, competition, luxury and all the good things life has to offer. While all this is more or less true, these tendencies are colored and qualified by personal House placements (or lack thereof). For instance, I'm rather laid-back for an Aries Sun, tending to focus time and energy and resources on other people rather than on myself. Interestingly, I have no planets in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Houses - the most "personal" of the 12 houses (and they are, btw, Aries, Taurus and Gemini's houses, respectively). While Aries is indeed "all about ME", and the 1st House (ruled by Aries) is also "all about ME", I have no planets there. This indicates that I do not naturally focus my attention or energy on myself. And in fact, I do need to be reminded to look after me, on a regular basis! That Aries Sun is in the 11th House -- the house of friends, of groups and the larger community, of hopes and dreams and wishes - again indicating that my energy and attention just naturally flows to "the other", and not to yours truly. Plus, it is square Saturn, the Great Setter of Physical Limits and Boundaries. SHe delights in suffocating all that Aries Fire and enthusiasm, earthing it, bringing it all back down to hard cold physical reality. Hmnph!!!!! Well, I'm glad there's a wide orb on that particular aspect - almost 8 degrees. So I do okay in the self-confidence self-starting dept, most of the time. And with Sun at 3 deg Aries square Saturn at 25 deg Sagittarius, the tension of the square is greatly reduced as both are in Fire signs. And thats MORE than enough chit-chit for one day. Y'hear me good, Gemini Rising? Especially on THIS particular forum, and about THIS particular subject! Have a star-studded New Years everyone, daylia |
|
31 Dec 06 - 10:59 AM (#1923160) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D "...fiivvvee retrograde rings. four planets rising, three moons occluding, two charts disputing--- and a Pisces in a quand-ry" further, deponent sayeth not. |
|
31 Dec 06 - 12:45 PM (#1923258) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus I hear ya,*dahlia*. How do these sound? How many Arians does it take to change a light bulb? None.Arians aren't afraid of the dark. Taureans? None. Taureans never want to change anything. Geminis? 2 plus a portable phone, an internet link and a copy of the "Bluffer's Guide to Changing Light Bulbs." Cancerians? Just 1 and it takes a therapist 3 years to get them thru the grieving process. Leos? Just one. They holds the bulb and the world spins round them. Virgos? They haven't got time,they're too busy changing everybody else's. Libras? Er, er, er, er, er 2, er no maybe just one. No on second thoughts make that two. What do you think? Scorpios? Why do you want to know? Are you a cop? Sagittarians? Look, ask me when I get back from India. Capricorns? I don't waste my time with these childish jokes. Aquarians? Well, you have to remember that everything is energy, so.... Pisceans? What lightbulb? Ivor |
|
01 Jan 07 - 07:06 AM (#1923863) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Richard Dawkins Holy Crap! Now we have the true believers trotting out their piffle again! Stand by for another 300-plus posts as the flat-earthers stamp their feet... |
|
01 Jan 07 - 07:17 AM (#1923872) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* LOL thanks Ivor! (btw, I can put off changing a lightbulb for months on end. I prefer candles anyway. As an Aries, I have a quasi-kinship with the flame ;-) |
|
01 Jan 07 - 07:20 AM (#1923874) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Scipio C |
|
01 Jan 07 - 07:25 AM (#1923877) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Burger King As an Aries, I have a quasi-kinship with the flame ;-) That's good, as you'll doubtless be flamed for your gullibility. As a rational product of the Enlightenment, I have a quasi-kinship with flamers and other debunkers of pseudoscientific twaddle. |
|
01 Jan 07 - 07:36 AM (#1923885) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* Enlightenment must be quite a grunt, for a Burger King. |
|
01 Jan 07 - 08:25 AM (#1923897) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* Have you seen these yet, Ivor? Here's how each Sign petitions the Divine... ARIES: "Dear God! Gimme patience! RIGHT NOW!" TAURUS: "Dear God, please help me accept CHANGE in my life, but NOT YET." GEMINI: "Yo God...(or is it Goddess?)...Who are you?...What are you?.....Where are You?.....How many of you ARE there? I can't figure you out!" CANCER: "Dear Daddy, I know I shouldn't depend on you so much, but you're the only One I can count on while my security blanket is at the cleaners." LEO: "Hi, Pop! I'll bet you're really proud to have me as your kid!" VIRGO: "Dear God, please make the world a better place, and don't screw it up like you did the last time." LIBRA: "Dear God, I know I should make decisions for myself. But, on the other hand, what do YOU think?" SCORPIO: "Dear God, help me forgive my enemies, even if the bastards don't deserve it." SAGITTARIUS: "OH ALMIGHTY, ALL KNOWING, ALL-LOVING, ALL-POWERFUL, OMNIPRESENT, EVERLASTING GOD, IF I'VE ASKED YOU ONCE, I'VE ASKED YOU A MILLION TIMES --- HELP ME STOP EXAGGERATING!!!!!!!!!!" CAPRICORN: "Dear Father, I was going to pray, but I guess I ought to figure things out for myself. Thanks anyway." AQUARIUS: "Hi God! Some say you're a man. Some say you're a woman. I say we're ALL God. So, why pray? Let's have a party!" PISCES: "Heavenly Father, as I prepare to consume this last fifth of Scotch to drown out all my pains and sorrows, may my inebriation be for Thy greater Honor and Glory." |
|
01 Jan 07 - 04:06 PM (#1924228) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Gizmo rofl |
|
02 Jan 07 - 12:00 PM (#1924875) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus Hadn't seen that.*daylia* - very sweet. nice to know that us flat-earthers have a sense of humour. On the other hand, we must stop stamping our feet, mustn't we. It's not seemly. Ivor |
|
02 Jan 07 - 12:09 PM (#1924885) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: freda underhill After Sex Comments by Sun Sign: Aries: "Okay, let's do it again!" Taurus: "I'm hungry--pass the pizza." Gemini: "Have you seen the remote?" Cancer: "When are we getting married?" Leo: "Wasn't I fantastic?" Virgo: "I need to wash the sheets." Libra: "I liked it if you liked it." Scorpio: "Perhaps I should untie you." Sagittarius: "Don't call me--I'll call you." Capricorn: "Do you have a business card?" Aquarius: "Now let's try it with our clothes off!" Pisces: "What did you say your name was again?" |
|
02 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM (#1924911) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus I might try some of those at work tomorrow, Freda. Some of the light-bulb ones went well today. Ivor |
|
04 Jan 07 - 06:49 PM (#1926832) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus BTW.quite agree with Alice that people cling to their beliefs even when presented with the facts. See the examples of Newton, Einstein and especially Copernicus. Ivor |
|
05 Jan 07 - 01:49 AM (#1927069) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Exasperated And what examples would they be, autolycus? Are you trying to tell me that each of them recanted reason in favour ofbunkum? Do share! |
|
05 Jan 07 - 03:25 AM (#1927109) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus I mean each of them and many others were severely opposed by the intellectual leaders of their day. Ivor |
|
05 Jan 07 - 03:38 AM (#1927114) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Captain Ginger ...and each and every one of them was able to demonstrate, using empirical methods, that they were right. Their observations are provable and can be reproduced by others and have been tested and found to be sound down the centuries. It's that funny mumbo-jumbo thing called "science". Astrology, on the other hand... Oh dear, don't get me started. I know it's a waste of breath, given that the enthusiasts for this pseudoscience will cling to their beliefs in the face of all reason and will continue to perpetuate what is essentially a con-trick. But, as has been pointed out, if a pharmaceutical company brought to market a contraceptive pill which had no discernible effect on fertility it would be sued by trusting customers who found themselves pregnant. As Dawkins has written: "If astrologers cannot be sued by individuals misadvised, say, into taking disastrous business decisions, why at least are they not prosecuted under the Trades Descriptions Act and driven out of business. "Why, actually, are professional astrologers not jailed for fraud?" It's a good question. I'm sorry, but astrology is another manifestation - along with crystal healing, reiki and other pseudoscience - of a creeping irrationalism born, I fear, of the despair most people feel when they feel unable to improve their lives and thus feel themselves to be at the whim of mysterious celestial and impersonal forces. Or, bluntly, it's bollocks. |
|
05 Jan 07 - 12:18 PM (#1927457) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus My point is discussed at length in "Against Method" by the US professor of philosophy Paul Feyerabend. in it, he seeks to demonstrate that scientists introducing a paradigm-shift often had to resort all sorts of intellectual wheezes and sleight-of-brain moves to persuade the intellectuals of the day. Rationality and experimentation weren't always enough to persuade. one of Einstein's basic insights, that the experimenter is part of the experiment, is still hard for some scientists to take, i.e.those who think they are objectivity itself. And you might treat yourself to a book of statements by 109 current scientists "What we Belive but Cannot Prove", edited by John Brockman. They include Martin Rees, Richard Dawkins, Karl SabbaghJared Diamond, Randolph Nesse, Steven Pinker and Howard Gardner. Best wishes, Ivor |
|
05 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM (#1927466) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D ah, Captain Ginger...how well I know both the temptation to 'explain' the problems with pseudo-sciences and the futility of doing so to those who have decided ahead of time what they will consider as facts or data. |
|
05 Jan 07 - 03:42 PM (#1927624) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Captain Ginger You might treat yourself to Francis Wheen's 'How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the the World' - it's an excellent polemic against delusion, superstition and pseudoscience. I don't thing you'll find it comfortable reading, however. Meanwhile, what, pray, do those 109 emminent figures have to say about astrology? Is there one of them who will puthis or her reputation on the line and say tha s/he believes in it? Care to elucidate us on what their matters of uncertainty actually were? |
|
06 Jan 07 - 01:20 PM (#1928396) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus I do write as someone with huge respect for so much of what science sets out to do and achieves. We can probabvly all agree that astrology is not in the same ballpark as science. Some examples of what notable scientists believe tho' they can't prove it. "I believe that evolution has direction and purpose." Douglas Rushkoff. "I believe but cannot prove that the same is true all over the universe, wherever life may exist" namely "all of life...is shaped by Darwinian natural selection." Richard Dawkins. "Is string theory a futile exercise in physics ,as I believe it to be?". Philip Anderson. " there is no such thing as God(s) or such a thing as the soul." Robert Sapolsky, prof of biological sciences at Stanford. "I believe but cannot prove that reality exists independant of its human and social constructions." Michael Shermer. "I can't prove it but I'm pretty sure people gain a selective advantage from believing in things they cannot prove." Randolph Nesse "...my surest conviction: that some of my beliefs (and yours) contain errors." David Myers, professor of psychology at Hope College "Everything. In a strict Popperian reading, all the things I 'know'are propositions I have not yet falsified." James O'Donnell To endeavour to cut to the chase, I rather doubt if any area of study is amenable to Western scientific method where a or the central object of the study is humans; so psychology, economics, sociology and so on get rather robbed of anything like full meaning or reality in principle when they attempt to ape mathematics. There are plenty of books about on scientific disputes, like the current one on the reality or otherwise of climate change. i've read How Mumbo-Jumbo...., which I enjoyed greatly. I agreed with most of what he had to say. I think he went astray in his account of astrology for the same reason as the North texas Skeptics did, namely deep ignorance. As I've said before, one of my philosophy teachers pointed out that anyone speaking on any subject of which they are ignorant need not be listened to with much seriousness. Ivor |
|
06 Jan 07 - 02:41 PM (#1928480) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Dani I don't know about all that astrology stuff: seems like you'd need an awful lot of details that are hard to find to get an 'accurate' chart. The Enneagram is fascinating! I'm a 7 and an 8, with some others thrown in for good measure. Very interesting reading. I'm currently reading a book called "Exuberance" by Kay Redfield Jamison that anyone in the '8' area will love. Dani |
|
06 Jan 07 - 04:26 PM (#1928565) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D "one of my philosophy teachers pointed out that anyone speaking on any subject of which they are ignorant need not be listened to with much seriousness." *smile*...that has the 'ring' of sense...and is obviously, and thus trivially true about many subjects...from high-energy physics to bricklaying. It 'suggests' that critics of subjects like Astrology are usually not conversant in the details, and have no real basis to judge. However, the problem with it as a generalization is also obvious if you apply it to a subject like "How to read the minds of Armadillos" or "Best techniques for stopping freight trains with sofa pillows". ....Silly examples, but the point is, you know instinctively that there are rules for deciding whether the subject can be studied and used effectively. That is, some subjects can only be studied IF you already accept the basic premises on which they are founded. The point about subjects like astrology, phrenology, I-Ching, Tarot...etc.. **IS** that we need to be sure that such a study is even possible, and that cannot be done from within its framework...no matter how old or complex its rules and details. It can be investigated, analyzed; its details and claims calculated and correlated....but only from a neutral, unbiased viewpoint, such as the scientific method. After all, we are asking whether important 'life decisions' should be made....not just playing a game like chess. |
|
06 Jan 07 - 04:37 PM (#1928581) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Captain Ginger Bravo Bill - better than I could have put it! I'm afraid I'm still at the stage where I want to harrumph: "well, it's all superstitious codswallop and there's an end to it - there's no more need to 'prove' this tosh than to 'prove' that the earth isn't flat, as only a purblind fool would fall for it." Sadly, as we see here, even apparently intelligent people can surrender their reason to nonsense. |
|
06 Jan 07 - 07:09 PM (#1928702) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D I sure see your point, Capn' Unfortunately, simply harrumphing is self-defeating. Intelligent, nice people DO take it seriously, just as they do religion and flying saucers. People assemble complex defenses and explanations for these...and other...beliefs. It is not always clear HOW they come to their confident stance, but they BELIEVE these things, and you cannot deal with them like Lucy tried in an old Peanuts cartoon: Lucy, talking to Linus: "Change your mind!" Linus just looks at her. Lucy.."CHANGE YOUR MIND!! Linus looks more intimidated and grumpy... Lucy.."CHANGE YOUR MIND, I SAY!!" Lucy, walking away, disgruntled and mumbling."Boy, it's hard to get people to change their minds these day!" Sadly, I am reminded of my ex-wife many years ago, where most of our 'arguments' deteriorated into 'quarrels' about HOW to argue! |
|
06 Jan 07 - 09:31 PM (#1928811) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Scoville Oh, good grief--I had no idea anyone would take this at all seriously. I just thought it was fun. Magic eight balls are fun, too, but I hope we don't put too much store in them. |
|
07 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM (#1929209) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus You "know instictively" that there are rules etc.etc. "Instinctively"? Oh, I see. Instinct. Ah, right. And to know whether study is possible cannot be discerned from within the subject's framework. I appreciate your clarity, Bill. It sounds like there's just the one method for deciding. Which sounds like anybody's "I know what's right and anything else is therefore, a priori wrong. Guess we'll have to agree to differ. For me that's like "If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." To put a comment from my previous posr slightly differently, but more relevantly to Bill's last, I don't believe humans can be dealt with by the scientific method satisfactorily. Our more material side, physiology and so on, is more amenable. Economics and the other human sciences I mentioned last post are buggered by at least two things. One is that the scientists necessarily have axes to grind. The other is our difficulties with understanding ourselves, especially because of the unpindownableness (sorry) of the unconscious. Oh, and a third problem is our non-repeatability. But we're already agreed that the scientific method isn't applicable to astrology. Ivor |
|
07 Jan 07 - 07:24 PM (#1929685) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Ghost of Jacques Cousteau Ze Zodiac, she suit me down to la terre. |
|
07 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM (#1929780) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D Well, Ivor, you have missed the point of what I said. The problem is, it takes many paragraphs of typing to adequately outline the distortions, and RE-explain what I was saying in simpler terms. Briefly...I did NOT say anything about "dealing with humans by the scientific method"...I said, essentially, that dealing with certain claims one needs an approach "from a neutral, unbiased viewpoint, such as the scientific method."...which, if properly employed IS, by definition, unbiased. Perhaps the use of 'instinct' was a mistake, only because it has a 'loaded' set of alternative meanings. All *I* meant was that almost everyone would not take a subject like "How to read the minds of Armadillos" seriously, and that, even without knowing technical language, would tend to agree that you can't really do that! You automatically discriminate between stuff that seems possible and stuff that is silly....unless the silly ones are presented in a way that disguises them as possible ones. One of the hardest points to make about reasoning and judgment is that there ARE some clear rules of logic, which, like mathematics, are NOT just personal opinions. I get so tired of people saying "..well, it's true for ME!"...no, my friend...usually it is not. Saying "Rhubarb pie is nasty" can be 'true for you', but saying that "testing astrological claims is exempt from the scientific method" is not...you may 'believe' anything you wish, but reality has a way of being what it is despite 40,000,000 people thinking otherwise. Simply stating that you have a different notion of how to define a word or use a concept does NOT exempt you from standard usage. You can form a club and decide among yourselves to use words YOUR ignore those picky folks who want to suggest you are being careless, but putting your fingers in your ears and saying "nanananana" doesn't make you right. |
|
08 Jan 07 - 10:28 AM (#1930217) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: TIA "...the scientific method isn't applicable to astrology." Hmmm. I did apply the scientific method to astrology (see above). And I got a result. If one does not like the result, it is not a logical, nor intellectually honest, response to claim that the result is invalid because science does not apply. I am certainly not the arbiter of what is "true" in the universe. I welcome anyone else to perform their own test, using the scientific method, to see whether it agrees with the results of my test. As a scientist, I am keenly aware that my current beliefs, based on testing to-date, are always in danger of being quashed by the next experiment. I await the next experiment... |
|
08 Jan 07 - 04:46 PM (#1930630) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: SharonA My astrological sign -- Gemini -- definitely suits me, from the general overviews I've read. But I've never delved into the intricacies of the zodiac, never had any sort of a reading or analysis, etc., so I don't know whether a description derived from my birthdate and birthtime would be accurate. |
|
08 Jan 07 - 06:08 PM (#1930734) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus Hi Sharon. Whether an astrologer reads your chart accurately depends partly on the quality of the astrologer; there are as few fine ones as in any other field (12 years ago on BBC, a top orchestral player reckoned there were only 2 top conductors in the world !!!!) It also depends on the client's self-knowledge and honesty (we all have axes to gring, especially about ourselves.) And it depends on the accuracy of the birth details . Astrology is ideally really more about how the client can become themselves,than being told what the chart says as tho' the client was a static, finished person. Astrology takes the idea seriously that we are all developing and changing (by getting older if absolutely nothing else.) Bill and Tia. Thanks for your responses. Bill. One doesn't test 'claims' per se, in the abstract;'Claims' are about something. In the cases i've mentioned, the claims are about people. I've stated why I think that where the subject of the study is people, there are insurmountable difficulties in being thoroughly scientific. So it is because of the 'object' of the claims that there is difficulty. And we have to more careful about asserting what we can and cannot take seriously. Bill, you make it look as tho' it were self-evident (an alternative to 'intuitive') as to what is worth or not worth study. And I think you both seem to have particular understandings of what science can and cannot do. We all gain knowledge about our daily world without the use of a scientific method. I think the 'scientific method' is not the transparent, non-contestable,self-evident concept that you both appear to believe in. And it would be a mistake to think that us astrologers dismiss science out of hand - of course we don't,tho' we're far from alone in thinking it has problems.(Neither of you have responded to the idea that we only have ideas that have not yet been falsified rather than are just true (Popper); or the idea that many scientists don't accept that they are part of their experiment (Einstein);or any of the quotes from eminent scientists about what they believe but cannot prove. Tia. Your experiment doesn't strike me as satisfactory partly because I agree with the partipant who suggested they may not have been good at astrology. You don't test just anybody in physics to decide whether physics is valid or not. And when it comes to interpretation of charts, there is much art and psychology as anything and we're landed back with the problem of humans being the material. And I'm not sure how we test interpretations as contrasted with 'facts' or even theories. And people have freewill, so horoscopes don't detail a person's fate as fixed, obvious. That's why astrologers work with astrology clients ina (quasi-) counselling way rather than a scientific one. ('Art' in the last para. as contrasted with science,is short for 'art of interpretation'. I'm sure some stone-cold knew it was short for 'art of deception';obviously not.) Ivor |
|
09 Jan 07 - 03:30 AM (#1931143) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Slag No, I need to let it out a little in the celestial equator. My nodes are shifting, if you know what I mean! |
|
09 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM (#1931475) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,TIA You're right Ivor. You don't test a physicist to see whether the physics is correct. In science, what one tests is a particular claim. I think my experiment was a completely valid test of the specific claim that a reputable astrologer can accurately describe a person based on knowing their gender, birth date, birth time, and birth place. Our test subjects clearly could not recognize themselves in the profiles provided by the astrologer when they were presented "blindly" (i.e. without knowing which one is "correct"). The comment from the student about "not being good at astrology" was a little funny (IMHO) because, for the claim to be correct, the person being profiled should not have to know anything at all about astrology - let alone be "good at it". Modern science has built airships that can safely keep me aloft even though I know nothing about how they work - let alone am any good at flying one. :) |
|
09 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM (#1931507) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D Thank you, TIA...I had been sitting on my hands, trying to figure out how AGAIN make the point about what is tested and what counter-examples to astrological claims look like. Your point about REAL tests showing NO particular discernable pattern is what genuine testing means. This quote: "We all gain knowledge about our daily world without the use of a scientific method. I think the 'scientific method' is not the transparent, non-contestable,self-evident concept that you both appear to believe in. " had me puzzling at length about how to approach the misunderstanding embedded in it. The best way I can say it is that.....the 'scientific method' is NOT a set of clear rules, like a checklist for inspecting a car, but rather, a guideline for basic testing of any kind. IF one thoroughly examines all the questions about a claim or theory and asks enough relevant questions, one HAS applied the scientific method. Therefore, any "knowledge (we gain) about our daily world without the use of a scientific method" is, by definition, weakly supported and subject to suspicion. What other 'methods' ARE available? Too often, they are only superstition, acceptance of authority, wishful thinking and simple reliance on coincidence. I wish there was an easier way to say it, but there isn't. |
|
09 Jan 07 - 02:04 PM (#1931596) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D (oh...by the way, [he said with tongue in cheek]....I note that Stephen Hawking shares a birthday with Elvis Presley!) |
|
09 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM (#1931620) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Captain Ginger And both of them bear awesome testimony to the terrifying power of the deep-fried peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I prefer the Prof's voice to the King's, though - not so much vibrato. |
|
09 Jan 07 - 04:14 PM (#1931704) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,S. Hawking n e e d e d c o r r e c t i o n |
|
09 Jan 07 - 06:13 PM (#1931803) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus Tia. Thanks,I made a mistake thru relying on memory. I meant that the source of the profiles could easily belong to the 90% of astrological sources who aren't much good. Astrologers have to distort what they do to fit scientific tests. Owing to the general tendence not to look at oneself and explore same (hence the fear of counselling/therapy), people have highly variable and inconsistent and distorted views of themselves,of friends, of family members,often. And I hope we can agree that any number of scientific experiments in history have been shown to be flawed by other scientists. That's part of how science develops,I thought. Science has many assumptions and blind spots and beliefs embedded in it, many of which practitioners may be unaware of,having bought the package in oder to get on with their job.(There is a respectable subject of study called The Philosophy of Science which explores these things. [I did it at uni.] There are 2 other disciplines relevant - the sociology of science, and the psychology of science.) Astrology has some major obstacles insofar as its own exponents seek solid foundations. One is that there is little money available to put into the task. Mainstream science which has the bulk of the money isn't going to do it. Another is that the scientific and main press, being against astrology, by and large gives space only to opponents. A third is that astrology that might be given some credence can be suppressed (much of Kepler's astrological stuff,e.g.) We all learn a great deal about the world thru experience and instruction from parents and friends as distinct from via the scientific method,e.g.th't cars are dangerous,the sun is hot,you mustn't eat just anything etc. ad infinitum. That is not to say by any stretch of the imagination that the scientific method is valueless;of course it is valuable. The best I can do briefly about the "Well it's true for me" line is not "That's an inherently mistaken view" , but "It depends." (Many of the questions our discussion raises could be chewed at book-length.In no way do I want to go on and on like .......... so to save bandwidth, virtual space and time,I won't repeat earlier points I've made that are being ignored. I do understand the ignoring - we all do it. And I now how difficult it is when anything we are stone-cold certain about is disputed. All of Mudcat if nowhere else shows how we can be prone to think we've made the points that settle the matter,obviously, and then find others disputing them together or severally. Ivor |
|
09 Jan 07 - 10:38 PM (#1931967) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,TIA While it may be true that "...Science has many assumptions and blind spots and beliefs embedded in it, many of which practitioners may be unaware of..", other scientists delight in spotting these assumptions and blind spots and thoroughly exposing them. Science is hugely self-correcting in this regard. Publish a study with poor assumptions or unconsidered factors ("blind spots"?), and someone is certain to take you to task without remorse (and often without tact). Scientists are properly heartless at these times. |
|
09 Jan 07 - 11:34 PM (#1931988) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Rowan If you look at the zodiac as a circular mandala, there is a 13th sign right in the centre of the circle. All birthdates have access to it. It's called "Cynic" Cheers, Rowan |
|
10 Jan 07 - 03:19 PM (#1932595) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus "A cynic is somebody who,when he smells flowers,looks for the coffin." H.L.Mencken Ivor |
|
10 Jan 07 - 03:47 PM (#1932617) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Castor I want two of everything. |
|
10 Jan 07 - 03:48 PM (#1932618) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: GUEST,Pollux I want two of everything. |
|
10 Jan 07 - 03:54 PM (#1932623) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Paul from Hull Well, if you dont have two Pollux, I pity you....*G* |
|
11 Jan 07 - 03:02 AM (#1932974) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus For more examples of how the scientific community can contain scientific (?) disputes, see out "What scientists think about " thread. Not everything in life can ,in priciple, be encompassed by the scientific method;astrology is one,any discipline where the object of study is the human are others;so is art. The hardest flaws for scientists to spot are those they all share. Ivor |
|
12 Jan 07 - 08:17 AM (#1934210) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: TIA "The hardest flaws for scientists to spot are those they all share." True also of astrologers and their followers I presume. |
|
12 Jan 07 - 11:11 AM (#1934391) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* True for all human beings as well. |
|
12 Jan 07 - 11:17 AM (#1934399) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Captain Ginger ...but not for cats, I find. By the way, have we touched on animal astrology yet? If not, why not? It's got to be worth a punt, eh? |
|
12 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM (#1934417) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* And btw, I don't know anyone who "follows" astrologers or astrology. I know some people who study it and apply the wisdom/insights gained thereby to improve their lives ---- but "follow" it? Nah. There's nothing to "follow" that I've come across yet; astrology is not a religion, a cult, or a science. |
|
12 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM (#1934463) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Scoville Pet Astrology. I don't know what year my dog was born, never mind month or day, but if I had to choose I'd suspect she was an Aquarian. If I put any stock in astrology, that is . . . But it says Virgo cats are bad mousers and that was definitely not true of mine, who topped out at 8 1/2 pounds and still managed to bring in a blue-jay. |
|
13 Jan 07 - 07:49 AM (#1935169) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* Oh phooey, Scoville. ;-) My cat was born in early May, so I suppose that makes her a Taurus. And she does display typical Taurean traits -- she's very stubborn, sensitive, sensual, set in her ways and loves comfort, tasty food and luxury to the max. Just like every other cat I've known. Astrology does not apply to animals. Much less complex creatures, they do not have to deal with human emotional, mental, spiritual or social needs. So they have about as much use for astrology as for religion or science or computers. And it really doesn't take much of a brain to see that, does it??????? (No offense to the people at that site -- in all fairness, I didn't even bother to click that link). |
|
13 Jan 07 - 07:56 AM (#1935170) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* ... And she does display typical Taurean traits ... Just like every other cat I've known. And that's NO BULL, I hasten to add. :-) |
|
17 Jan 07 - 12:02 PM (#1939535) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus just to conclude,I note the number of times points I've raised have been ignored or,as in Tia's last post,sidestepped. Ivor |
|
17 Jan 07 - 12:10 PM (#1939544) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Captain Ginger I'm at a loss where to start. Accepting that no scientific study has ever found any basis in astrology, you claim that this is because scientific method is somehow 'wrong' and incapable of dealing with people. Science is very good at dealing with people. it uses lots of boring statistics and number crunching, but it comes up with results. Psychology is a science. Companies and instutions all over the world use tests like the Myers Briggs to assess personnel. It is based on boring science, and it's about people. I know of no reputable company that uses astrology as a means of staff assessment or recruitment. Doesn't that in itself tell you something? |
|
17 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM (#1939608) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Marion I've looked over the posts but not the links, so pardon me if this has been said already, but... Our eating habits vary with the seasons - as do drinking habits, use of medicines, exercise, sources of stress (with accompanying hormone surges). Assuming that our mothers' lifestyles affect our prenatal environments, and that prenatal environments affect our brain development, isn't it reasonable to consider that the month of our birth (or more to the point, the month of our conception) might affect our personality? Seasonal lifestyle variablity might be different in different locations - for example, the time of year when we have the most fresh produce in Canada may be the opposite in Australia - but serious astrologers incorporate location of birth into their work, not just time of birth. For the record, I don't believe in astrology - I think what makes people find it convincing is the natural human ability to see yourself in a nonspecific and mostly positive description. However, it's interesting to consider ways that it might be valid, and I find the influence of food more likely than the influence of stars. Marion |
|
18 Jan 07 - 09:12 AM (#1940447) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: TIA Forgive me. I am occasionally dense. I do try to answer all questions, but I fear I may have missed one from Ivor. Did not mean to sidestep. Please clarify. Thanks |
|
18 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM (#1940776) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus hello Tia. Please see your post of 12 Jan. Looks like a sidestep. As for your own point there;yes,i think astrologers are quite capable of not being able to see flaws 'coe they all share them.Mind you,there is great difference within the astrological community,even to the level where a volume appeared in the late 70s by a couple of astrologers casting much doubt on much astrology. So astrologers,like scientists,don't present a water-tight,united front. Captain Ginger. Ignorance is no defence in this subject as in the law. Because I do not know something,it doesn't follow from that th't it doesn't exist. Actually,there are businesses/corporations, share/stockholders and the like who use astrology. Many of them no doubt keep it quiet for fear of ridicule. And the mainstream media are not likely to report it if it proved favourable to astrology. Science is no doubt good at dealing with people. it doesn't follow from that th't it is flaw-free, nor that there cannot be other methods that are good,too. i suspect science is best when dealing with the socialised aspects of people. When it comes to feelings,self-contradictions that humans are riven by,the spiritual side,the unconscious,the therapeutic needs and so forth, i'd wonder if the scientific method is the route to take. lastly,I've resisted offering another way of understanding/relating to/conceiving of life,the universe and everything than the scientific one. There are loads of books on such matters. There is so much to show that every point of view is limited, that we don't have the answers to basic questions of living,that there is disagreement about practically everything (Mudcat threads demonstrate that with blinding clarity). And perhaps we're all here for different purposes - some to be scientists,others to be mystics,yet others to make things, some to be musicians etc.etc. Therefore,I'll go with Bill D. on another thread,and agree to differ. We are no more all of us ready or suitable for alternative metaphics than for understanding Einstein,Polynesian music or laying bricks. Those who want to study other knowledge than scientific (or AS WELL AS) will do,others won't. If you read this far,I want to thank you just for that. ivor |
|
18 Jan 07 - 04:21 PM (#1940902) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: TIA Sorry I'm dense, but I'm still not sure what it is I am side-stepping. I'll take a guess if you agree to forgive me if I am not answering the actual question. My 01/12/07 post was a response to: "The hardest flaws for scientists to spot are those they all share." I agree that if all people in a particular group think alike, there will be things outside of their way of thinking that they will be completely unaware of. However, as I've stated before, the scientific method, unlike any (?) other way of thinking, is self-correcting. Science takes absolutely nothing on faith. Nothing is ever proven beyond all doubt. Any theory, proposal, or even "fact" can be demolished by the next well-designed test. In fact, the best route to lasting fame (and funding!) is to upset an "established" idea. So, the idea that scientists are in some way mental lemmings doesn't make sense to me. They love to pick at each others ideas, looking for the flaw. But, it's not just about bashing people's ideas or tearing things down. Science is used for testing specific claims. I (and many scientists) agree with Ivor that there are questions that science cannot answer (e.g. "why are we here?"). There is no test that can answer that question. But if someone asks "can an astrologer accurately describe a person knowing only their birth date, time, place and gender?", that specific claim can be tested. And if the test method and results are peer-reviewed or made public, other scientists will not simply accept the results - they will try to spot the flaw in the method. So, I'm not sure what is the flaw that all scientists share that would cause them to inappropriately accept or reject an invalid test of a specific claim (which, to reiterate, is all that science can do). Gave it my best. Sorry if I still miss the point. |
|
18 Jan 07 - 04:50 PM (#1940932) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Captain Ginger And the mainstream media are not likely to report it if it proved favourable to astrology. But the sole reason for the resurgence of astrology in the 20th century was the mainstream media. The newspaper horoscope was uniquely responsible for that. And the Daily Mail in particular is extraordinarily sympathetic to astrology and all sorts of 'parascience'. It stems mainly from the delightful dottiness of the late Lord Rothermere, but only in the Mail will you find quasi-serious articles on the Bible Code, Nostradamus and other such stuff. Patric Walker was paid a fortune both for his jobbing '12 sizes fit all' horoscopes and his personal work for Vere Rothermere. Believe me, if there was a scintilla of a suggestion that there as any scientific basis for astrology, the Mail and other mid-market tabloids would wet themselves with excitement. As for the big why are we here question; it's totally irrelevant. There is no 'why' necessary. We do not exist in a purposive universe; all we need to know is the 'how'. The why exists only in the minds of those who seek a deeper 'meaning' than the possibly banal scientific explanation. And, in the absence of a 'meaning', we invented god. Mind you, that banality and sleight of invention did give us J.S.Bach, Giotto, Dante and eventually Mahler, Courbet and James Joyce, so it's no small thing. So, for the wondrous nature of humanity, including its potty irationality in believing in horoscopes, perhaps we should all be thankful! |
|
19 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM (#1941691) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus Captain Ginger - it's demonstrably incorrect to say the mainstream media were the SOLE reason for the resurgence of astrology in the 20th century. Tia - thanks for that. Just to be clear,your post of 12/1 responded by saying the astrologers did the same thing and otherwise didn't deal with my point. Your 18/1 post , by contrast,did deal with my point - that's all I meant by 'sidestepping' the first time. i never said or wished to imply that scientists were 'mental lemmings'. As you say,they do take the scientific method for granted as the route to knowledge (have I got that right?),and I'm exactly questioning that statement,(not the same thing as saying it's nonsense or useless,which I don't believe). And of course,questioning that statement is the heresy. There are many reasons why it simplifies unto distortion to say that a person's character can be accurately delineated (sorry,described) from the horoscope alone in a quasi-scientific manner.)Astrologers regularly fall into the trap of trying to do that in attempt,perhaps to look more 'scientific'? Can you suggest why minds of the quality of Plato,St.Thomas Aquinas,Newton,Goethe,Kepler,Jung and Reagan would think there's something in astrology if there isn't? I've resisted quoting till now. "When all possible scientific questions have been answered,the problems of life remain completely untouched." Wittgenstein, Tractatus 6.52. I'm assuming interested parties will prefer to read previous posts rather than be bombarded with endless repetition. Ivor |
|
19 Jan 07 - 01:04 PM (#1941719) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D It sounds awfully like I hear Astrology being defended with logic like: "If science can't prove it's wrong, it's perfectly ok to assume it's right." "Can you suggest why minds of the quality of Plato,St.Thomas Aquinas,Newton,Goethe,Kepler,Jung and Reagan would think there's something in astrology if there isn't" Yes..certainly. (and that is the fallacy of appeal to authority)...The amazing thing about the mind is it's ability to hold and assert mutually incompatible premises, and thus come to conclusions on one topic using reasoning that it would reject if applied to another topic. One of the very hardest things to do is to grimly maintain the most consistent internal reasoning in the face of competing needs, concerns and wishful thinking. This is partly because careless reasoning is often embedded IN our language as we use ambiguous, equivocal or tautological terms and fail to notice that we have slipped into fallacy. Just consider a mother, confronted with evidence her son is implicated in a crime, refusing to believe it's true...or that "someone must have forced him...or he was temporarily insane"...etc. Even great minds have their weaknesses.... |
|
19 Jan 07 - 02:45 PM (#1941821) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Captain Ginger it's demonstrably incorrect to say the mainstream media were the SOLE reason for the resurgence of astrology in the 20th century. Please demonstrate! What other factor, aside from the inclusion of horoscopes in penny newspapers as a means to boost circulation, can you give for the rise of horoscopes in the 20th Century? Is your demonstrable phenomenon the same moving force behind the huge interest in sudoko puzzles in the UK as well? And crosswords? |
|
19 Jan 07 - 03:56 PM (#1941875) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: TIA Ivor, First, while we may disagree on this issue, you are an awfully pleasant person to have a dsicussion with. Here's my response to the great minds question: I don't need to be concerned if a great mind believes differently than I do. In science we do not take anything on faith - even the beliefs of our heroes. We can do our own testing of claims. I can only speculate as to why any particular person might believe any particular thing (in this case, I might point out the antiquity of some of these great minds, and the fact that they believed all kinds of things that I do not...e.g. a heliocentric universe, the universal ether, etc....). But if faced with a specific claim, and if there is a way to test that claim, and if the test contradicts one of our dear heroes beliefs, it does not invalidate *all* of their other beliefs, nor their other contributions that may to this day withstand testing (although testing the beliefs of even an icon such as Newton is scientific fair game --- which is exactly what Einstein did with relativity: found situations where Newtonian physics are invalid!). |
|
20 Jan 07 - 08:13 AM (#1942385) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* First, while we may disagree on this issue, you are an awfully pleasant person to have a dsicussion with. Isn't he just!! :-) Ivor, I've been admiring how you've handled this discussion. Wonderful! And most educational, for someone who comes by the full-speed-ahead-blow-em-all-away Aries-type approach just naturally. I have Mercury as well as Sun in Aries -- a real quick, impulsive, and original thinker/communicator. And Mars (ruler of Aries) is exactly conjunct my MC. Right down to the very minute, no less. Its opposing Uranus, too. So I tend to take my ideas and thoughts and opinions very personally, as if they are ME. And if people take issue with my thoughts and opinions it feels like they are attacking ME -- which they are not of course, but it FEELS like they are -- so I get overly defensive/explosive and .... and ... (well, just see the Zodiac thread that went well over 1000 posts last year) Now, I know that I am NOT my opinions. That is only logical -- of course I am not my opinions!!! I do know this, very well, in my head but emotionally?!? HA!! Still workin on it.... and I'm glad studying my own natal chart helped me to recognize and understand this about myself, too. Anyways, way to go Ivor and please, keep it up! daylia |
|
20 Jan 07 - 08:54 AM (#1942402) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* PS -- Ivor, correct me if memory fails but your Sun is in Libra, right? Oh thou Master of the Delicate Art of Balance, Compromise and Harmonious Relationship? (if it's not in Libra, it should be! :-) |
|
20 Jan 07 - 01:17 PM (#1942582) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Scoville Lightbulb jokes by sign. The smart-ass astrologer. Oddly, my college boyfriend, no matter what anyone says, was still the world's biggest Taurus. |
|
21 Jan 07 - 08:41 AM (#1943181) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus Thank you so much. At least we're seeing how a discussion of light motored by heat can work compared to to one of heat motored by ????????????? I,too,am enjoying discussing all this with Tia,*daylia*,Bill and Captain. Bill - it may look like that but it's not what I meant, and isn't a necessary deduction. I'm querying the possibility or appropriateness of the scientific method here. i no way mean that therefore astrology is true. I was strongly influenced by the whole questioning of orthodoxy (authority?) in the 60s and 70s,which,as everywhere,was a mishmash of the ludicrous on the one hand and the pursuits of understanding,knowledge and so on,on the other. I was also affected when I read someone's horoscope with them,and afterwards they told me that I'd said things which they didn't think anybody knew. Naturally,there are many ways to interpret that remark. I didn't know her or her family particularly well,hadn't tried to find out about her beforehand,and asked her very little during the reading. I agree with the point about authority. And about the flaws of great men. (I'm going to have to be more careful than my Mercury in Leo likes.) We're all flawed,scientists,astrologers,'catters,even those we love and celebrities. I'll have to come back in 10 years when I've studied Plato,Goethe,Newton,Jung (perhaps not Reagan) and the others to explain how they thought about astrology and why. It might be something to with being open to others ways of conceiving of the nature of the universe than those we do. My point was more about great minds than authority per se,tho' i can see th't that doesn't sound immensely convincing. Captain - the beginnings of the revival of interest in astrology starts psychologically with the works of people who were dubious of the unflawed merits of rationalism like Schopenhauer,Fechner and Nietzsche,and later the psychologists. More materially,astrological works of Renaissance times were being issued in fresh editions in the 1850s,for example Lilly(1602-1681)'s Introduction to Astrology in s1852 (Bohn Library). A next step was the Theosophical movement (the answer to anyone's jumping-to-conclusions thought is 'no') of Madame Blavatsky. One of her followers was 'Alan Leo',who subsequently wrote a small library of astrological introductions at the turn into the 20th century. Practical Astrology appeared in a New edition in 1911. Another was the growing interest in the sources of beliefs in the late 19th century in books on religion,magic,(yes yes,I know what I writ),other societies(anthropology). Leo was one of a new breed of astrologers producing manuals,journals and almanacs from the end of the 19th c. Tia, it's very nice to do business (as it were) with you,too. Your remark has made my day;at least. if not year. In astrology we're dealing with individuals who among an infinity of elements are lacking self-knowledge,unfulfilling of their potential,over-socialised,in the grip of goodness-knows-whose ideas and beliefs etcetc. Not material that the scientific method would deal with well!!!!!! *daylia* hi and thanks. My Sun's actually late Cancer,and I have my Moon's in Libra. Also,having a predominance in cardinal signs and in Air signs gives me a predominance of Libranness. on Mudcat,I need all the delicateness me mercury in Leo can find (ha!). We never know where the next post is coming from, so this place doesn't half keep give us opportunities a-plenty (great tune,that)for openness,doughtyness,learning (not least about ourselves if we're up for that),and making decisions about whether to be firm or adaptable,etc.etc. It's positively an educational establishment. your comment about the 'blow-em-all-away' Arian tendency reminds me of my hope to make THE point that settles the matter,(which I sometimes imagine being like dealing a fatal blow with a single sword lunge !!!!!!!!). It's curiously satisfying for me to see th't that's impossible,pure (hope you'll all forgive me) pure Hollywood. Pure Libra. What I actually seem to go in for is the Cancery watery drip-drip effect. 'Cos there's always Taurean superior strategic approach and persistance;Geminian cleverness and sophistry;Leonine Royal pronouncements about the Big Picture;Virgoan hammering away at the slightest fleck of objection;Libran paralysis (I once played a game of Monopoly which I paralysed by refusing to sell anything after I couldn't win !!);Scorpioic threats etcetc Ivor |
|
21 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM (#1943411) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D "I'm querying the possibility or appropriateness of the scientific method here." yes, I see that, but the WAY you do the querying indicates to me that you still view the scientific method as just one of several ways to evaluate the critical questions about certain claims....and at the end you continue as if you accept Astrological analysis as accurate & meaningful no matter what science says. I am trying to somehow make the point that ANY claim in ANY field needs to be objectively investigated and analyzed in all its ramifications, and understood and given status based on objective criteria....and that properly understood and done well & thoroughly, good objective study & analysis IS the scientific method. It is not as if the scientific method is just one odd type of opinion in a list, like political candidates. The scientific method can be done well, carelessly, with subjective bias, or with limited understanding....but the basic rules of theorizing, devising tests, conducting tests, evaluating results and re-formulating theories, **IS** the scientific method. If one sees careful analysis that indicates that a favorite notion (flat earth, ether waves, Phogiston, Phrenology, Tarot, Crystal balls, seances, tea leaves, reading entrails, black cats, and forgive me, even Turtles all the way down) has problems, there are two ways to approach it....more research, or abandon it. But it doesn't make sense to base much of importance on it while you are doing more research. Is Astrology fascinating? Sure! Does it have a long, complex history? Agreed... Do many people who 'seem' to be reasonable people accept it? It does seem so! Does this validate it? .....ummmmm, not exactly. Will my appeal to reason and sense and restraint make much difference? *grin*...I am not THAT optomistic! Have fun....but take it all with a grain of salt. |
|
30 Jan 07 - 02:18 PM (#1952713) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus Bill - what claims would you say cannot be tested by the scientific method? If any? You made the point which us at the crux of the disagreement. I needed to sit back a bit and contemplate. Till I realised you mwere repeating a point I'd already responded to more than once. I've already suggested that repeating thoughts ad nauseum isn't useful. I can,I really,really can, see with clarity your point about testing claims scientifically. You needn't think I haven't grasped what you're saying. No,it's not that I can't understand what you're driving at. It's just that I beg to differ with your view that whether ANY claim stands or falls by whether it satisfies scientific examination. (Please correct me if that's not what you were saying.) For all the reasons I've already given. Now I see you've started a thread about cranks in which you indiscriminately (inscientifically) lump together all sorts of e.g.astrology. I agree that there are any number of cranks. I gather there were some in the field of science who have subsequently become accepted in science. So *daylia* and I can see th't that's that. And I feel not a little hurt that for all the arguments I've put forward about scientific uncertainty (what DO scientists do with recalcitrant data?),the limits of science etc.etc.etc. that you've shown that lack of discrimination. Best wishes Ivor |
|
30 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM (#1952736) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Blindlemonsteve Mine never did, so i bought a Zephyr, its much better.... |
|
30 Jan 07 - 07:00 PM (#1952971) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D gosh...It is never my intention to insult anyone, but merely to critique ideas. Let me think of how to approach an answer. I think it may basically involve a difference of opinion of the definition of 'science' and some other confusions about semantics. There are many learned papers written on the topic of just what it MEANS to have a valid test and to use non-ambiguous language in designing the test.....and all this is before we debate the place of various statistics involved. When you say "...querying the possibility or appropriateness of the scientific method..." I suppose I'd ask what other ways it is possible to test claims if not by the scientific method. I know of a couple, such as 'polling of folks who have had successes' but that hardly seems a good test. A real discussion of these issues would involve hours of 'live' discussions, with back-and-forth clarification of terms. (The other thread is a link to a 'general' collection of varied silliness, which then note some quite extreme examples of Astrological attempts. If you look at them, they go way beyond the standard claims.) |
|
30 Jan 07 - 07:57 PM (#1953012) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D "...arguments I've put forward about scientific uncertainty (what DO scientists do with recalcitrant data?),the limits of science etc..." Science is not supposed to be about absolute certainty. Mathematics is...sorta...and logic is in some ways (testing internal consistency of syllogisms)...but science merely keeps refining tests and examining theories to SEE if they merit acceptance. Naturally, one set of researchers can get different results using different tests, but this leads (or should) to newly designed tests. 'Some' tests are physical...like chemistry or physics or botany or astronomy does....measurement of light in various spectrums, etc. (lots of work on 'black holes' going on these days which is 5% measurement, and 95% speculation). But some tests are statistical and logical. Obviously, *IF* certain claims in astrology were demonstrably true, it would be of great benefit...even to science...to help humans sort out issues of competence, fitness, awareness, predictibility...etc. The problem we have had with various tests of astrological claims is that, for every set of claims of 'success' it is way too easy to find counter-examples and flaws which make the idea of **depending** on the claims quite awkward. It is possible to learn a lot about 'character' by examining folks behavior and tendencies...attention allows more awareness....but to claim either 'influence' or 'predictibility' based on the positions of astronomical entities is a pretty serious step, and one that SHOULD be tested....not just by hearsay and belief, but by some dependable method; and as I ask above, what IS this method, if not science? (My assertion, as before, is that if a good test is found, it is, by definition, science. If someone finally states.."well, it has not been proved wrong, and I shall continue to give it credence until it IS proved wrong", there is little I can say. Someone can assert and believe that elves come out at night and tend the flowers in their garden, but I'm sure YOU can...and likely would...suggest some tests to find out. And that would BE science. If they assert that the elves are invisible and never allow themselves to be seen, you finally just shrug. If someone INTENDS to believe, he will find reasons...good or bad. |
|
30 Jan 07 - 08:07 PM (#1953020) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D You know...sometimes it takes a lot of work to hone in on exactly what we are disagreeing about in these matters....data? interpretation of data? facts? (not always the same as data). Over & over again, it seems to me that much of it (the disagreement) has a basis in language and definitions: ambiguity and equivocation...that is, just arguing past each other. |
|
31 Jan 07 - 07:09 AM (#1953344) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: *daylia* your comment about the 'blow-em-all-away' Arian tendency reminds me of my hope to make THE point that settles the matter,(which I sometimes imagine being like dealing a fatal blow with a single sword lunge !!!!!!!!). It's curiously satisfying for me to see th't that's impossible,pure (hope you'll all forgive me) pure Hollywood. Pure Libra. "...like dealing a fatal blow with a single sword lunge..." LOL oooo that sounds so appealing, though! :-) I can relate, Cardinal Air (says Cardinal Fire). And I see that as opposing Signs (Aries-Libra), we're here to make each other go aaaaaahhhhh (or at least, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm). Among MANY other things, of course. Thanks for clarifying, Ivor. |
|
31 Jan 07 - 08:01 AM (#1953402) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: TIA "what DO scientists do with recalcitrant data?" If by recalcitrant, you mean data that does not support an existing hypothesis, then they back up and revise the hypothesis. Nearly all great advances in science happen because of unexpected (relcalcitrant?) data. Remember the story of Galileo dropping two balls of different weights off the tower? He fully expected them to fall at different speeds. Instead, I believe he got recalcitrant data. |
|
31 Jan 07 - 08:09 AM (#1953409) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Cluin "...oooo that sounds so appealing, though!... we're here to make each other go aaaaaahhhhh..." Yep, it's allllllllllllllllllll about sex. |
|
01 Feb 07 - 01:45 PM (#1954780) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus Thanks Bill, I do appreciate your responses. I'm glad you've said more about the 'crank' post - it was quite unclear that you were pointing to examples of 'extreme' astrology. I don't think our dispute is semantic. I think it's about whether the scientific method is the only appropriate method of acquiring knowledge. What,in your weltanschauung (world view),appears beyond examination is the status of the tester and their methods. For you,the scientific method itself is to be taken for granted. I can easily understand why anyone who stands by it,for job,past experience,psychological,philosophical or other reasons, would resist or object to the method itself coming into question. As I heard somebody say once,'if astrology is true then science is false.' Obviously if you think that then you'd not really going to take any argument for astrology seriously,however rationally,level-headedly or sensibly they might be put. You used two indicative words. 'Predict' and 'influence'. A lot of us astrologers are agnostic or atheist about 'influence'. That's because of a different understanding of the universe from the scientific one. Astrologers talk more of 'correlation' i.e.the same thing at many levels.That is because of a view of the unverse where at each moment,the universe has a pattern,discernable at every level from the universal to the subatomic.So the planetary pattern of the moment is a way of 'reading off' that pattern. Work has and is being done about 'influence',and I could cite examples,but correlation is the astological preference. Prediction has many aspects to it. Astrologers don't go in for precise prediction on the whole because,alas,charts/horoscopes have to be interpreted,and because everything in astrology is multi-symbolic,so you don't have the one-for-onr correspondences that science would look for (That's another part of science's ideology,perhaps.). Timing gets interfered with by the fact that astrologers believe people have free will, so how a pattern will play out is from a range of possibilities. And when astrologers are dealing with individual clients,well some of us are about encouraging our clients to see the choices available from forthcoming patterns,so that the clint can choose both realistically ('that's the pattern') and nourishingly and with awareness. Now that is problematic because as us psychotherapists know,people,by and large,find the idea of taking their responsibility in their lives tremendously difficult. Loads of people don't want to,hence blaming,where in shifting responsibility,they can be annoyed with others and be helpless victims all at once. Lastly,astrology got to many of its findings thru several THOUSAND years of observation and correlation (quite apart from a different take on the universe from our scientific one,as sketched above) That's part of an answer to what the alternatives to the scientific method mught be. Enough for the moment. Ivor |
|
01 Feb 07 - 02:41 PM (#1954832) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D "several thousand years"....yes, I understand that. And we know these are accurate observations how? Are they replicable? "I don't think our dispute is semantic. I think it's about whether the scientific method is the only appropriate method of acquiring knowledge." hmmmm...we'd have to sit and compare some notions on that idea. I don't even agree with the phrase "acquiring knowlege" as used in that sentence. It is at least partly semantic if we found we didn't agree that acquiring knowlege is the same as 'collecting data' and/or 'observation and correlation' that you refer to. Since you like to consider yourself agnostic about 'influence' and 'prediction'- (a good sign.. *grin*), I suppose my next direction of inquiry would be into the value and accuracy of correlation and the process of extracting really useful information that went beyond generalities that applied to almost anyone. To my mind, it gets really slippery and fuzzy there, and it is there where some quite detailed critiques have claimed the 'correlation' breaks down. Yes...maybe enough for now, as it takes a lot of careful phrasing and explication for either of us to present an explanation that is neither ambiguous nor equivocal. |
|
01 Feb 07 - 04:40 PM (#1954963) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Donuel The only profound surprise that zodiac statstics ever gave me was the study that compared motor vehicle accidents by astological catagories. Cancer was 3 times safer / fewer fatalities than Libra. Car insurance might take a page from this recent finding. Granted I heard it on a MSNBC fluff piece this past fall but it was compelling to a degree. The sample population was only 1,200 |
|
01 Feb 07 - 05:18 PM (#1955002) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: Bill D "Statistics" I read once showed there was an almost perfect correlation between the sale of alcohol in the US and the salaries of college professors. ;^) Wasn't there a book once called "How to lie with statistics"? Data of ANY kind has to be evaluated carefully. |
|
02 Feb 07 - 01:03 PM (#1955775) Subject: RE: BS: does your zodiac suit you? From: autolycus I agree,Bill. We have to take care in this. "Has to be evaluated carefully." And to repeat one point,'evaluated' from which position? You are taking the position of the scientist who does the evaluating as beyond examination. Instead of 'acquiring knowledge'( I take your point),I'm casting doubt on the scientific method being the only acceptable method of 'testing claims'. 'the accuracy of the observations'? Wouldn't be the case that the longer the period of accumulating data in a particular field, the mor ethey'd tend towards greater accuracy? 'replicable' Repeatedly in interpreting horoscopes,the same elements (position of Sun,particular angular relatiuonships between given planets,etcetcetc give rise to the same or very similar or closely-related outcomes. A delicate balance between hard,pinpoint accuracy and uniqueness of every person/horoscope. Ivor |
