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31 Dec 06 - 02:21 PM (#1923355) Subject: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Long Firm Freddie I've always rather liked the imagery of "We're all going to hell in a handcart". Can anyone tell me where it came from? LFF |
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31 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM (#1923362) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handca From: Sorcha I don't 'know' but my first guess would be the Mormon pioneers who set off for the wilderness with hand carts. |
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31 Dec 06 - 02:33 PM (#1923371) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: sapper82 I often couple it with "....... on a road paved with good intentions." |
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31 Dec 06 - 02:35 PM (#1923373) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handca From: maeve And I learnt it as "in a handbasket." |
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31 Dec 06 - 04:32 PM (#1923484) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handca From: Uncle_DaveO A wonderful resource for this sort of thing is a site about language origins called Worldwide Words Michael Quinion, the proprietor, says as follows: [Q] From Brian Walker: "Can you please tell me anything about the origin of the phrase going to hell in a handbasket?" [A] This is a weird one. It's a fairly common American expression, known for much of the twentieth century. But it's one about which almost no information exists, at least in the two dozen or so reference books I've consulted. William and Mary Morris, in their Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins, confess to the same difficulty. A handbasket is just a basket to be carried in the hand (my thanks to the Oxford English Dictionary for that gem of definition). The Dictionary of American Regional English records to go to heaven in a handbasket rather earlier than the alternative, which doesn't appear in print until the 1940s (Walt Quader tells me that Burton Stevenson included a citation in his Home Book of Proverbs, Maxims and Familiar Phrases from Bayard Kendrick's The Odor of Violets, published in 1941). But DARE quotes a related expression from 1714: "A committee brought in something about Piscataqua. Govr said he would give his head in a Handbasket as soon as he would pass it", which suggests that it, or at least phrases like it, have been around in the spoken language for a long time. For example, there's an even older expression, to go to heaven in a wheelbarrow, recorded as early as 1629, which also meant "to go to hell". I can only assume that the alliteration of the hs has had a lot to do with the success of the various phrases, and that perhaps handbasket suggests something easily and speedily done. -------- If you are curious about language, I urge you to check this site out, and sign up for his weekly (on Saturday) email. Free, and no dataminers, viruses, et cetera. Fascinating, always! Dave Oesterreich |
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31 Dec 06 - 04:36 PM (#1923488) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Bee-dubya-ell Slightly informative article HERE, though it doesn't appear anyone knows that much about the phrase's origin. I would venture that "handcart" and "handbasket" are mere variations and not of independent origin. And that "...in a a basket" and "...in a bucket" are further variations. I think part of the phrase's appeal is that it imparts a sense of loss of control. Going to Hell is bad enough, but going there in a handcart means either the handcart's out of control or somebody else is pushing it. |
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31 Dec 06 - 04:38 PM (#1923490) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Q (Frank Staplin) 1913- "go down the *tobog to ruin in a handbasket"- Wichita Daily Times, Wichita Falls, Texas. *toboggan, thus down the slide. There is an indirect statement by a 17th c. preacher about going to Hell in a wheelbarrow, but may not be directly related to the saying about a handcart. From googling. Not found in Lighter. |
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31 Dec 06 - 06:21 PM (#1923568) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: mack/misophist The DARE entry suggests an explanation. It's only a guess, though. In execution by decapitation, the head was usually caught in a basket; as in the governor offering 'his head in a basket'. |
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01 Jan 07 - 08:54 AM (#1923910) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handca From: Long Firm Freddie Thanks so much, everyone. I did a bit more rootling round on the net, and found a reference to the stained glass windows of Fairford church in Gloucestershire, England, which depict many biblical scenes and are known as the Poor Man's Bible. These date back to about 1500AD, and are the only complete set of medieval stained glass windows to have escaped the attentions of Mr Cromwell, O. and his men. According to one source, one of the windows includes an image of a blue devil taking a sinner to hell in a wheelbarrow... Are there any blue devil 'catters who could confirm what there preferred method of transporation for condemned souls might be? LFF |
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01 Jan 07 - 09:07 AM (#1923921) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Effsee I'd go for an asbestos box if given the choice! |
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19 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM (#2867785) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: GUEST,Campman An alternative explanation of "To hell in a handcart" is found in the building of the transcontinental railroad. There was a mobile town of saloons, gambling and whore houses that followed the railhead. This town was known as "hell". A handcart is the small four wheel conveyance that has handles that are pumped up and down for motion. |
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19 Mar 10 - 07:19 PM (#2867879) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Jack Campin The People's Palace Museum in Glasgow has a special-purpose handcart that was used by the police for carting drunks off to the cells. If you were drunk enough to require that sort of attention in 19th century Glasgow, you had to be *really* drunk: the cart was a wheeled stretcher with a lot of heavy-duty leather straps that even the strongest and craziest drunk couldn't get out of. I would guess that most large cities in the late 19th century had something similar. |
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06 Jan 11 - 05:19 PM (#3068784) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: GUEST,sparkplug62 I heard that it originated in the days of the plagues when people would come around to homes with handcarts and ask for the dead to be brought out and thrown in the handcarts to be taken for cremation (hell). |
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06 Jan 11 - 05:34 PM (#3068796) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Q (Frank Staplin) Oxford English Dictionary- 1865, I. Windslow Ayer- "Thousands of our best men were prisoners in Camp Douglas, and if once at liberty, would 'send abolitionists to hell in a hand basket'". Close. |
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06 Jan 11 - 05:36 PM (#3068798) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Q (Frank Staplin) Camp Douglas was a prison for Confederate soldiers, in Chicago, IL. |
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06 Jan 11 - 05:41 PM (#3068801) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Mrrzy The head in a handbasket phrase reminds me of midieval (absolutely every single spelling of this word looks wrong in English!) kings sending another ruler's cousin's head to them in a handbasket, a la Braveheart, that would make sense as a British expression for Never as quoted above. |
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06 Jan 11 - 06:14 PM (#3068826) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Sandra in Sydney Many victims of the Great Plague were buried together in pits - cremation was against religious beliefs of the time & not legal in Britain until the late 19th century. Grave concerns: the disposal of London's dead |
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07 Jan 11 - 04:38 AM (#3069104) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Penny S. Probably totally irrelevant, but I have an image in mind of St Cuthman of Sussex, who wanted to travel to spread the Word, but had to look after his aged mum, so wheeled her with him, in a handcart. Presumably this would be the heaven version, but that would depend on what his AM was like. Penny |
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07 Jan 11 - 11:53 AM (#3069309) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handca From: Charley Noble I wonder if the expression was originally "Going to Hull in a handbasket"? Not likely, though. I've been to Hull and back and would readily do it again. I'm less sure about Hell, although I've been through Hell, Michigan. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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07 Jan 11 - 11:58 AM (#3069310) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handca From: Charley Noble Oh, I forgot to put in a link to Hell, Michigan: click here for a good time! They even have a general store there called "Hell in a Handbasket." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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07 Jan 11 - 01:22 PM (#3069367) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Francy "He's gone to hell in a basket....One of those hand woven caskets"...From a Tom T Hall song....early 70's....Frank of Toledo |
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07 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM (#3069383) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Taconicus I don't know the origin, but it's always seemed to me to refer to being brought to ruin or evil by means of actions, activities, or ways of living that appear festive or benign on the surface. |
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07 Jan 11 - 02:31 PM (#3069401) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: GUEST,Songbob I don't know anything about this, but it reminds me of a news story of a while ago. It seems that astrophysicists and other researchers have determined the shape of the universe. Not just our spiral galaxy, but the whole shootin' match. It's a series of closed elliptical curves, overlaying each other in ways, said one scientist, "vaguely reminiscent of a hand-basket." Bob |
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07 Jan 11 - 06:44 PM (#3069548) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: GUEST,Ebor.Fiddler From Hull, Hell and Halifax, God Lord Deliver us! - Thieves' Litany |
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01 Nov 11 - 06:47 PM (#3248806) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: GUEST,me In Fairford church, Gloucestershire, the great West window (installed before 1517 AD) shows the Day of Judgment in stained glass, with the innocent going to heaven and the guilty going to hell. Among the latter is an old woman in a wheelbarrow, being pushed to her doom by a blue devil. So the idea of "going to hell in a handcart" is a good 500 years old. |
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02 Nov 11 - 02:28 PM (#3249223) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Q (Frank Staplin) Long Firm Freddie posted the Gloucesterhire source back in nineteen and ought seven. |
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02 Nov 11 - 02:39 PM (#3249230) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: McGrath of Harlow "mediaeval" is really the better spelling, since it indicates the etymology (aetas - epoch/age). But the simplified "medieval" is also counted as correct, even this side of the Atlantic. |
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02 Nov 11 - 02:50 PM (#3249236) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: MGM·Lion To be precise, Kevin ~~ 'mediæval'... |
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02 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM (#3249238) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: dick greenhaus Clearly, it refers to a London prostitute named Helena Handcart. Fakelore can be a fascinating study, as long as it's not trammele with facts. |
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02 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM (#3249246) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: MartinRyan "The Devil he hoisted her up on his back.." - in a basket, of course! ;>)> Regards |
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02 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM (#3249247) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: McGrath of Harlow "Hell in a handbag" when referring to the Thatcher years and their continuing consequences... |
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02 Nov 11 - 04:08 PM (#3249298) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Jim Dixon For each of these expressions, the oldest example I can find is American, and they are only 3 years apart. It's interesting that they are both from the field of finance and government: "I want to tell him that I am not talking here for the benefit of men who would rather ride to hell in a handcart than to walk to heaven supported by the staff of honest industry, as it has been said." --The Coming Battle: A Complete History of the National Banking Money Power in the United States by M. W. Walbert (Chicago: W. B. Conkey Company, 1899), page 430. "These are the unhung idiots who imagine that a nation, producing in abundance everything humanity needs, would go to hell in a handbasket if it adopted an independent currency system or an international policy which Yewrup did not approve." --Brann the Iconoclast: A Collection of the Writings of W. C Brann In Two Volumes With Biography by J. D. Shaw (Waco, TX: Herz Brothers, 1896), page 228. |
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02 Nov 11 - 05:29 PM (#3249355) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Q (Frank Staplin) The image in the Gloucestershire church window may have nothing to do with the origin of the phrase, as the post by Jim Dixon shows. |
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03 Jan 16 - 09:17 AM (#3762534) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: GUEST,julie dunbar Surely going to hell in a handcart must have some reference to the plague in the uk when dead bodies were collected in a handcart. A bell was rung and people were asked to bring out their dead. They were taken to mass graves e.g. Blackheath in London. |
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03 Jan 16 - 10:15 AM (#3762545) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Mr Red The image in the Gloucestershire church window may have nothing to do with the origin of the phrase, as the post by Jim Dixon shows. bare credits consideration without provenance. I will post a photograph when I am in Fairford next. The stained glass windows, if predating Cromwell, establish the concept as far back as those days. One can speculate it reflect common parlance of the day, when people could not read but could associate with the reference. And the notion of it being related to the Plague is very tempting. I have said this many times: one reason single for a phrase's existence (especially in lyrics) is not a given. The Folk process that makes it survive is often that it chimes on several levels and over many centuries. Let the debate continue, until we are all: taken to hell in a ............. |
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03 Jan 16 - 06:21 PM (#3762647) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Joe_F I have heard tell of a young man from Nantucket Who went down to hell in a bucket. His subsequent rudeness need not concern us here. I have also read (I forget where) of someone going to *heaven* in a basket. It is nice to know that that is also possible. |
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08 Jan 16 - 07:40 AM (#3763716) Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Going to hell in a handcart' From: Mr Red Devil, Wheelbarrow & Old Woman. Window in Fairford Church if you look carefully you can see the figures above/behind the Devil & wheelbarrow are less like a wheelbarrow and more like a er, um, could it be, a Handcart? Larger view showing the two "carts". Window in Fairford Church Both should open in new tab/window |