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11 Jan 07 - 05:06 AM (#1933021) Subject: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman A duet Player posted a query on another forum about[how is it done].my advice is to listen to other duet players,Tim Laycock[crane duet]Iris Bishop and ralphie[mccann duet]. one may gain something also from listening to other systems,if the player is able to adapt the ideas,Steve Turner plays mainly a bass baritone and to a lesser extent a treble, louis killen English, Brian Peters anglo. I am not sure how useful my tutor would be for a duet, Tim laycock is probably the most useful for a crane duet. www.dickmiles.com |
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11 Jan 07 - 12:06 PM (#1933409) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: GUEST \Or get a howling Dog |
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11 Jan 07 - 12:14 PM (#1933422) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman yeah,very witty. |
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11 Jan 07 - 12:29 PM (#1933435) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: GUEST,Ralphie Personally, as an admirer of all the above mentioned players, the only advice I can give, is practice as much as you can. Obviously Iris B (playing the same system as I do), is a God-Like creature. I'll never acheive her status. No attention span, me!! Also Keith Kendrick (English and Anglo...weird!) is definitely worth a listen. So, practice and listen to others. Regards Ralphie. (Hello Dick!) |
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11 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM (#1933443) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: GUEST, Tom Bliss The duet is great for accompanying slow songs. To achieve a nice smooth effect on chord changes, first find all the main triads on the left hand, and get used to changing them as if you were playing gutar chords. That'll keep you busy for a while! Then, try 'pedalling' - holding notes over, with the right hand, like this: Find a note which is either in, or works with, both the chords you are changing, and leave it down across the change. It avoids ay gap between the chords. (C for chords C and F, D for D and G etc). Then, once the left is 'speaking' again, move the right to a new note for the next change, and so on. You can also pedal in the left hand. Just leave any common notes pressed in, or even any note you like which achieves a nice drone effect. This is something duets do really well but no other box can manage easily. |
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11 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM (#1933469) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman your right,except on an English, if your playing in e flat or a Flat,these notes are duplicated on both right and left,and you can do the pedal effect between these two chords as an eflat note occurs in both chords,definitely more scope on the duet though,thanks that is useful information. with an english,you can use the pedal effect,lets say your going from c major to f major the c note has to be played an octave higher,lets say on the right hand side,and can be held onwhile you play the a a third below and the f a third below that |
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11 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM (#1933662) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: Rowan I've always regarded the song and the singer as having more influence over the type of accompaniment than any keyboard layout of concertinas. No matter what type the concertina, if the character playing it is sensitive to the song and competent, the result is due to their musicianship rather than any notions of keyboard layout. CHeers, Rowan |
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12 Jan 07 - 06:47 AM (#1934134) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: Crane Driver I think the original question was not whether duet systems were better for accompanyment, but how, if you've got a duet, do you use it. Personally, I tend to play the melody on the right, and use the left to fill in chords, bass runs or whatever seems right for the song. Fortunately, when I started playing, there was no-one around to tell me the duet was only supposed to be for slow songs, so I use it for everything. For faster songs, I use a vamping technique on the left, alternating the lowest note of the chord with the other two (rather like a melodeon). Best way to learn is to simply 'twiddle' up and down in one particular key, finding what chords/bass notes whatever fit best. Then do it again in another key. I suppose it counts as practicing, but for me it's just relaxation. Now, I find that whatever I'm playing on the right, I can usually find a left hand part without thinking about it - occasionally I have to over-ride my instincts and teach myself to play something else, but not often. Sometimes I play something really clever on the left, and have to stop and work out what I did. A well-trained left hand is a great asset. Andrew |
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12 Jan 07 - 06:56 AM (#1934140) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: Paul Burke I play slow stuff on the duet, but that's because I can ONLY play slow stuff. And as for singing to it, well, it doesn't help that my voice pitches better to E than D, with some resulting awkward tuck-your-fingers-under-each-other chords. Not that anyone who's heard me singing asks for a repeat of the excperience... |
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12 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM (#1934189) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: GUEST, Tom Bliss "the duet was only supposed to be for slow songs, " I was merely offering some advice on one style which works well on a duet and is a good place to start. Naturally we all use that sort of vamp for songs and right-hand-led tunes. |
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12 Jan 07 - 08:12 AM (#1934205) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Fooles Troupe " A well-trained left hand is a great asset." As is a well-trained right hand.... oooooooooooooooooooooooooo......... |
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12 Jan 07 - 10:32 AM (#1934350) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: GUEST,tony geen 'play the melody on the right hand' ... I find the hardest thing is to AVOID playing the melody of what you (or the vocalist) are simultaneously singing. It seems to take a lot of experimentation to find something that really works. |
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12 Jan 07 - 11:17 AM (#1934402) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman I sometimes play a harmony line on the english,I am sure its possible to play harmony on right,and chords on left,but remembering not to make the chords too heavy,perhaps dyads on the left, ist and fifth or ist and third etc..or even harmony on left and light chords on the right.depends also whether you have a tenor or baritone or bass voice,as to what one might do to effect contrast.www.dickmiles.com |
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13 Jan 07 - 04:59 AM (#1935093) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman what I try to avoid, when im using harmony lines are parallel thirds,I prefer to use contrary motion rather than similiar motion,Although occasionally parallel thirds are unavoidable. having a good knowledge of harmony helps, on whatever system of concertina you are playing. |
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13 Jan 07 - 08:28 AM (#1935183) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman there is also another reason for trying to avoid using major thirds.,[apart from it being boring] according to Steve Dickinson [C Wheatstone and co],in equal temperament the interval of a major third,is the most out of tune.a better effect in my opinion[is to use major sixths]www.dickmiles.com |
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13 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM (#1935427) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: oggie Go and see Bill Whalley play. An object lesson in playing for singing and playing with another instrument. IMHO he and Dave Fletcher make one of the best club duos currently working. All the best oggie |
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13 Jan 07 - 03:16 PM (#1935454) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: Tootler Captain Birdseye wrote; what I try to avoid, when im using harmony lines are parallel thirds, A few years ago, I took Associated Board Grade 6 Theory and there we were taught that parallel fifths and octaves were the big no no. Parallel thirds were OK and, in fact, are widely used. Obviously it is not essential to stick to these rules, except when taking an AB exam <g>, but knowing them means that you are more likely to break them consciously for effect. You are right about the intervals, though. The thirds, major and minor are more "out" in equal temperament than in most historical temperaments. The sixths, incidentally are equally out. A few years ago, I did a comparison of the notes of the harmonic series with equal temperament, so I could make tuning adjustments to MIDI files. I reproduce the data below.
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13 Jan 07 - 03:49 PM (#1935478) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman aspiring crane duet players,should listen to Tim laycock. tootler,I dont care what grade 6 theory says,I find parallel thirds boring and predictable,I occasionally use them, BUT I find it more satisfying wHenever possible to use contrary motion rather than similiar motion,Yes and I occasionally use octaves,TRADITIONAL MUSIC is not classical music,because you are as well,as using the major key using the dorian and mixolydian and aeolian modes,the best guide is not rules, but your ears. |
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13 Jan 07 - 03:50 PM (#1935480) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: Jack Blandiver All this talk of concertina accompaniment and not one mention of Peter Bellamy, who used an anglo with custom drones, or so I'm told; certainly when I had the honour of rigging up some microphones for him at what was quite possibly his last ever gig (Durham Folk Party, July 1991) he referred to his instrument as an anglo. The gig was, as ever, an absolute blinder; although I missed the first quarter of an hour or so running round the pub singarounds in an attempt to raise an audience... Last week I sang his later reworking of 'The Robber's Song' from The Tansports (recorded as 'Abe Carmen' on his 1985 EFDSS album 'Second Wind') for which I accompanied myself using a 'toy' accordion as a 'surrogate concertina'. Raised a few eyebrows at the local folk club, but it sounded just fine to my weary old ears - & until I get my anglo (+ custom drones) fund up & running this will have to suffice! |
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13 Jan 07 - 04:55 PM (#1935558) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman yes peter bellamy was very good and he was of course a great harmony singer with harmony group young tradition. tootler;parallel thirds,are accepted under certain conditions in classical music,they are rarely used for more than a few bars at at a time,and then when they are,itsOFTEN in conjunction with two other voices providing contrary motion. If you were to take an eight bar folk song it would be pretty boring and unimaginative to harmonise it[for two voices] in parallel thirds,all the way through.[that is what I am talking about]. now when I am accompanying a song on THE ENGLISH CONCERTINA,I try and find a harmony line for an eight or twelve bar song,THAT IS INTERESTING,Not just parallel thirds all the way through,particuarly as my arrangements[to prevent the accompaniment from being overpowering]often consist of two voices with perhaps a third voice at a long note or cadence point.That doesnt mean that I never use parallel thirds,But I WOULDNT advise using parallel thirds all the way through a song[I hopethathas clarified my views] |
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14 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM (#1936320) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: Tootler By heck Cap'n, you do get all steamed up. In fact in any music, parallel anything all the time gets pretty boring, but to imply, as you did in your earlier post that parallel thirds should be avoided is not exactly helpful. It is not helpful to dismiss classical music theory in the way you do, for all its faults it has stood the test of time and has adapted to changes over time. I found the harmony part of the theory course very helpful, but it should not be followed slavishly. As to the harmonisation of modal tunes, it is the tonic-dominant harmony that does not apply rather than use of parallel anything or contrary motion. In fact if you really want to be "purist" you should not be harmonising modal tunes at all as the modes are about melodic structure, not harmony. In practice, as you rightly say, it is your ear that has to be the judge. However, an understanding of harmonic principles, whatever source you get it from, does help. As I play Anglo Concertina (albeit badly - I am only a beginner), then harmonic choices are more limited and when I am trying to work out an accompaniment, I generally ignore most suggested chords as they are not always practical in the particular circumstances. |
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14 Jan 07 - 03:01 PM (#1936437) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Sandman tootler,sorry if I appear to be steamed up,THIS MEDIUM [where we cant see body language can be misleading]. I have been playing concertina for thirty years,accompanying songs,have written 2 tutor,one of them on song accompaniment made 5 lps and two cds,while I admit I am still learning[arent we all].,My concertina accompaniments have in the past been complimented by such luminaries as Brian Peters and Louis Killen. in my earlier post I said occassionally I use parallel thirds,By trying to avoid them, im looking for alternatives,that doesnt mean I wont use them,. I mentioned this because on CONCERTINA NET,someone suggested to a beginner [use parallel thirds and any other note that fits].Ibelieve parallel thirds can be used but are best used sparingly.if you visit my website,www.dickmiles. com you can hear two of my accompaniments Sailortown AND Just as the tide is flowing,which I hope you willenjoy Dick Miles |
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14 Jan 07 - 06:38 PM (#1936655) Subject: RE: concertina accompaniment From: The Fooles Troupe When grinding out many (practising!) 'harmonising 4 part' exercises for my Music Theorey Exams, I noticed that my teacher managed to get me to (mostly) avoid parallel thirds by suggesting that I use one of the other notes from the particular chord being used at that point. If that did not produce satisfactory results, then to think about a modulation around that section. This was mainly intended for 4 part vocal harmony, and the intention was to produce 'singable melodies' for all the parts - it's relatively easy to grind out 'Mr Bassman' type lines as per certain popular musical genres... :-P It also ignores the question of easily producing 'vamping style' accompaniment, as per certain other popular musical genres... Of course, there is quite a difference between just 'grinding out' this sort of random garbage on paper, and extemporising live on an instrument to obtain 'real music' ... :-) |