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12 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM (#1934405) Subject: Bolt on guitar necks From: GUEST,Jim I realise that there are several guitar makers nowadays who make bolt on necks as opposed to dove-tail joints like Martin and Gibson use. What is the earliest company to use this method? What are the advantages or disadvantages of this type of neck joint. What guitar makers use bolt on necks? |
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12 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM (#1934419) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Midchuck What is the earliest company to use this method? Not sure. What are the advantages or disadvantages of this type of neck joint? The main advantage is that a neck reset involves loosening some bolts, inserting a shim, and tightening the bolts again, rather than a prolonged battle with steaming and prying and poking and praying to get the neck off without breaking anything - so it usually costs a fraction as much to have done. I'm not sure there is any disadvantage except that "It can't be right because that isn't the way Martin used to do it!" You can get into arguments about whether there's any difference in tone from the neck joint construction, on any of several forums, but I don't know of any agreement one way or the other having been reached. What guitar makers use bolt on necks? Well, I know Collings does. That should be sufficient proof that the quality of the instrument in not affected by the use of the bolt-on neck, in and of itself. Peter. |
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12 Jan 07 - 11:31 AM (#1934422) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: number 6 Taylor uses bolt on guitar necks. Midchuck's post pretty well states the disadvantages and I have also heard there are no real disadvantages. biLL |
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12 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM (#1934423) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: number 6 ooops sorry ... I meant "Midchuck's post pretty well states the advantages" |
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12 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM (#1934425) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Mr Happy http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Folding_20Guitar |
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12 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM (#1934473) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Bee-dubya-ell Martin's current crop of less expensive guitars, basically anything below the "Standard Series" (18, 28, 35 etc.), are built using Martin's take on a bolt-on neck. They call it a "mortise/tenon" joint but it's a bolt-on in thin disguise. One minor disadvantage of a bolt-on neck is that it's possible to strike the bolt when drilling a hole in the guitar's heel to install a strap pin. It won't hurt the bolt, but you'll probabaly have to drill another hole in order do get the strap pin screw to bite properly, and you'll have to patch the mis-drilled hole. If you don't know exactly where the bolt is, it's probably best to have a luthier do the job, simple as it is. |
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12 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM (#1934483) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Bee-dubya-ell Just to clarify the lousy first sentence in my post above, the "(18, 28, 35 etc.)" is meant to identify the guitars comprising the "Standard Series", not the ones with mortise/tenon neck joints. Guitars with mortise/tenon joints are the 16 series, 15 series, X series, Road series, Little Martins and anything else that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. |
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12 Jan 07 - 01:06 PM (#1934499) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Scrump Not sure, but were solid-bodied electric guitars the first to use bolt-on necks? ISTR they were but I'm a bit rusty on my guitar history. |
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12 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM (#1934543) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Bee-dubya-ell One advantage of a bolt-on neck is that, since the neck and body can be finished separately, it's not necessary to have the same finish on both parts. A high-gloss finish may be desirable on the body of a guitar, but many players dislike high-gloss necks because the finish creates drag against damp skin. (Some even rub the neck with steel wool or extra-fine sandpaper to take the gloss off.) Taylor does all their necks in a low-drag matte finish, regardless of the finish on the body. |
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12 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM (#1934613) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Sandy Mc Lean I have a 1969 Eko J-54 (similar to a Ranger Electra)with a bolt on neck, so the Italians were cranking them out quite a while ago. |
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12 Jan 07 - 03:35 PM (#1934615) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Richard Bridge Eko were indeed doing it long long ago, and so were Hagstrom, both in acoustics (and certainly in electrics for some Hagstroms) but I firmly believe you get better energy transfer with a set neck. |
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12 Jan 07 - 04:16 PM (#1934654) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: GUEST,Al The Levin Company of Sweden made acoustic guitars with bolt on necks in the mid fifties. I own a 1958 Goya M-26 Goliath, Levin's word for Dreadnought, that has a bolt on neck. |
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12 Jan 07 - 04:19 PM (#1934659) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: GUEST Did Frankenstein have one? |
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12 Jan 07 - 05:44 PM (#1934731) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Darowyn My 1961 Fender Newporter has a bolt on neck. It's identical apart from the Newporter transfer to a 1961 Stratocaster neck. It's my favourite guitar, plays like silk and with the small mahogany body, microphones love it. Cheers Dave |
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12 Jan 07 - 05:51 PM (#1934736) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Cluin Another advantage is that it is much easier and cheaper to have a broken neck/headstock replaced with a bolt-on, than repaired in the case of a dreadful accident. But repairs would be easier too if the neck is removable. Main advantage is with neck resets and set-ups, though. Most respected luthiers say there's no acoustic advantage to the old dovetail joint. |
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12 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM (#1934791) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Pete_Standing Lots of luthiers use bolt on necks these days. Lets forget about the idea that bolt on necks means the same as flat pack furniture packs, luthiers will make sure that there is the same attention to detail with how the neck is attached as to the way they do the struts or anything else. A dovetail done badly is no where near as good as an interference fit with a bolt. Either done well will work, neither done well won't, but for maintenance, the bolt wins. |
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13 Jan 07 - 12:17 AM (#1935008) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Bert LOL, I was going to say that, but you beat me to it, GUEST. |
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13 Jan 07 - 02:11 AM (#1935035) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Cluin Well, you both should be beaten. Sorry..... Sorry everyone..... sorry. |
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13 Jan 07 - 03:41 PM (#1935474) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Bee-dubya-ell FYI, the Frankenstein monster did not have a bolt-on neck. Bolts require nuts, and even the mad Dr. Frankenstein wasn't cruel enough to put the poor monster's nuts in his neck. He used lag screws instead. |
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13 Jan 07 - 04:22 PM (#1935512) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: GUEST,lox Have any documented tests been done of tonal differences or energy transference differences or resonance differences between bolt ons and dovetails? What data have they yielded? There must be a way to measure such things - though of course what is pleasing to the ear is generally quite subjective. ___________ And I didn't know that Frankensteins monster played guitar ... wow ... you learn something new every day. Was he in that band that won last years Eurovision? |
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13 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM (#1935561) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Cluin No, he was in this band. |
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13 Jan 07 - 04:58 PM (#1935566) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Cluin And I DID come across this study once. |
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13 Jan 07 - 05:56 PM (#1935615) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Bee-dubya-ell I have heard of a study, though I've not actually seen it, that claims glue is an inherently poor sound conductor. So, I guess one could argue that the glue used to secure a set neck degrades the instrument's sound a bit. But, I guess one could say the same for all the other glue joints in a guitar and I don't see anyone proposing that bridges should be bolted on, braces should be attached with screws, etc. |
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13 Jan 07 - 06:30 PM (#1935652) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Cluin Traditionally, rabbit-skin glue is used for those kinds of joints. Old-style luthiers prefer it because it isn't a flexible adhesive like most synthetic glues today. |
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13 Jan 07 - 10:35 PM (#1935834) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Mooh Well, there's at least one C.F.Martin and Johann Stauffer (sp?) from as early as the 1830s with a clock key type of neck setting device, which I assume means it's mechanically attached, ie: without benefit of wood joinery like a glued dovetail or glued mortice. Also some builders actually used a wood screw in leau of bolt(s) to help stabilize the neck joint as glue dried and left it in after the fact. Peace, Mooh. |
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13 Jan 07 - 10:40 PM (#1935836) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Mooh To say nothing of banjos and steel body resonators with bolt on neck attachments... Peace, Mooh. |
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14 Jan 07 - 05:39 AM (#1936029) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Darowyn It's not true to say that all modern glues are flexible. The feeble white PVA wood glue that you can buy in DIY shops remains flexible- that's true. However, Marine chandlers will sell you two pack epoxy glues which penetrate wood deeply and set iron-hard. There are some excellent Acrylic single part glues too. I use one which sets to a glass-like brittleness, and another which includes a foaming agent which is fantastic for filling gaps but remains slightly flexible. The rabbits are safe from me! Cheers Dave |
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14 Jan 07 - 09:14 AM (#1936129) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Sandy Mc Lean Some epoxies can be as hard as steel but they make a permanent bond and the wood will break before it will pull apart. Hide glue on the other hand, will soften when heated making parts easier to seperate for repair. |
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14 Jan 07 - 12:07 PM (#1936254) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Richard Bridge Cluin, that study was very very interesting. If the analysis were progressed it might make tuning the sound of a guitar, and designing a guitar to sound a particular way, a science not an art. |
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14 Jan 07 - 02:43 PM (#1936415) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: bubblyrat I have read all the above with growing alarm !! I shall henceforth cease to think of my guitars as wonderful instruments,as they have now been revealed to me as being mere functional machines. |
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14 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM (#1936421) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: Cluin Most luthiers will tell you there's mostly science to it. But we all know there's quite a bit of art goes into a fine instrument, as well as quite a bit that comes out of it. |
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14 Jan 07 - 04:09 PM (#1936500) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: bubblyrat Thankyou---I shall sleep more easily tonight for that. Roger... |
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14 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM (#1936636) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: The Fooles Troupe I have in my possesion an enamelled steel hospital bedpan with a bolt on guitar neck. I'm not making this up, you know... |
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12 Jan 08 - 01:52 PM (#2234819) Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks From: mattkeen Brook Guitars - Devon Bolt on necks - they make some of the best hand made guitars you can buy. There is a load of mojo talked about acoustic guitars, but its all science, engineering and technique (Oh and love as well) |