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22 Jan 07 - 04:53 AM (#1944032) Subject: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Barry Finn In another thread this subject was side tracking the thread so I thought I'd bring it up here. For those of you who don't know Nantucket Sounds it lies off the coast of Cape Cod, Mass. Its general considered off the Woods Hole/Buzzards Bay area up through Chatam/Monamy Point area (the elbow of the Cape). Martha's Vineyard & Nantucket sit right in the middle of it. Here at the elbow the Atlantic Gulf Stream heads out to sea which is why the change in water temp is so great. This area (Nantucket Sound) is home to many birds & water fowl, it's also in the mist of the route taken by many migratory birds. Many of these species are protected. The sound itself is also the home to many fish & reptile species & again in part of the migratory route for many protected species. So far there been the proposal of a test tower & 175 wind towers. Construction of the test tower alone causes many to worry quite seriously about that effect of just the construction & its impact on the environment. We have minke, humpback & right whales that inhabit the area. As well as several species of dolphin & turtles, including loggerheads. So when someone gets around to doing a study on the environmental impact, when the government gets it's self together enough & figures out whose jurisdiction the study, control & oversight will belong to, when the folks trying to push this project through will discuss alternates, when someone gets the time to figure which environmental laws are to be broken maybe then the people of the Cape will allow them to go forward but not until someone comes up with enough information so that an informed discussion can be had & an informed decision can be made & not before, we'll have to wait & see once that time comes. I grew up on these waters in the summer time & my mother's lived there for the past 35 years. As it is the loss of marine life has been tragic. Cape Cod, you're lucky to catch a 5-10 pound cod, the clamming is disappearing as well as the scalloping. The lobster is getting smaller & fewer by the season. 40 years ago I could walk the sandbars at low tide & bring home breakfast, lunch & supper. Today there's nothing on the sand or under it. I haven' seen a seal, a turtle or a giant grouper in decades. There still there but you won't see what's left & if they build the windmills they may be gone. The stripper & bass, the marlin, the swordfish & sailfish aren't around anymore & the tuna too. Part of this is due to over fishing & part caused by development & pollution. So if the Cape folks are a bit leery about building on & in the sound don't go calling them Kennedy's or liberals call them justifiably cautious. Yes, it will look unpleasant (actually you probably won't see it from land, any land but they will be a hazard to navigation) but if it proves to not have adverse effects on the wildlife & the environment then I think that the people of the Cape would go for it. They'd like the break in energy cost, IF THERE ARE ANY & the positives of not using any more fossil fuel than need be but come up with the data 1st, & prove that it's gonna be at least a half safe bet. Here's some reading Barry |
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22 Jan 07 - 05:59 AM (#1944057) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Bagpuss I don't know much about this, but a quick google found that there are two sides to every story. This one had some figures in it. click |
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22 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM (#1944159) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: MMario I have heard that the foundations and supports of the towers will function as artificial reefs - and studies on the west coast have shown that such actually increase biological diversity - so there may be some positive factors for the environment --but they need studies to show this. |
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22 Jan 07 - 01:00 PM (#1944464) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey In the Gulf of Mehico the best fishing is around the oil rigs. Off the Florida keys and probably in other parts of the world, they routinely dump old busses, appliances and whatever to create artificial reefs to to create a habitat for marine life. Some fishermen go out at night and dump things on their own secret reef which they can find later on with GPS. In California near Palm Springs there is a gap in the mountains which funnels the winds into that area. It supports a huge wind farm. Nimbys use environmental excuses to keep necessary things from happening. One minute they are saying "The polar cap is melting and Nantucket will be submerged. The next minute they are saying "we don't need no steenking windmills" |
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22 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM (#1944608) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Bee Nevertheless it is good sense to try to understand what will happen when massive construction occurs. If you don't try to understand what's happening in your own back yard, what is the likelihood you'll care what happens anywhere? I think it likely that the proposed windfarm will be a net benefit, but if someone can prove otherwise, I want to know that. You should not make environmentally sensitive decisions based on what you think are the political ideals of your opposition. Referring sneeringly to people with differing ideals or politics by attaching terms like 'NIMBYs', as if it were an epithet gets you nowhere. |
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22 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM (#1944697) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Barry Finn Thanks for the link Bagpuss. Mick Sagrillo seems to have done his homework in the study of wind farming & makes a good bit of sense. After all he is owner of Michigan Wind & Sun, LTD & in being involved from that end of the industry I have to read what he says with that in mind, even still he does make sense & has made some very reasonable statements. His mention of the Altamont Pass Wind Farms near San Francisco & its bad siting in the local ecosystem is pretty much the same as Nantucket. Granted that's only one of the reasons that Altamont's faulted but it's one of the reasons that Cape people want a study and/or a report on. The reef growth that MMario mentions might work better in deeper water, not in the area where they're considering which is 13 to 40 feet deep. The problem is that the owners want to place the turbines close in shore. On-shore they have to pay by either buying the land or renting it. Far off shore where the wind is better for their purposes is costlier to build & maintain & farther from electric & power source lines, again an additional cost. The placement in shore is their choice. Since when do private developers & builders tell the public where, how & why they will do as they please when they don't own the public resource they're planning on disturbing & when they haven't studied all the options. This type of technology used on our coastal waters isn't even covered by any capable authority. The US Army Corps of Engineers is the best so far by a law passed in the 1800's & that was given to them because of "Hazards to Navigation" which in this case goes way beyond. How about a little bit of research & sudy & some org with the athority & intellegance to over see this from the debate process to the construction process to the stages of going on-line to the maintaince. So far there is no regulartory board (as in the nuclar industry) that I know of to yet govern this type of "off/in-shore" power industry More on wind farming here & elsewhere Barry |
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22 Jan 07 - 04:46 PM (#1944702) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST Is the term Boomer or Dink a sneer? Please explain to us what a Nimby is. |
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22 Jan 07 - 04:59 PM (#1944721) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: katlaughing NIMBYS = Not In My Back Yard! |
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22 Jan 07 - 05:20 PM (#1944745) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Bee And yes, Boomer and DINK can certainly be used in a sneering fashion, to point fingers at a demographic as if they were at fault for existing, and as if that demographic was all of one mind regardless of whether that is true or not, which it usually isn't. Nether term is often used in a positive context, and NIMBY is never used in a positive context, despite it being quite natural for people to want to control their own local environment. Is that always a good thing? No, but often it is. Windfarms have the potential to alleviate our dependence on fossil fuels, but impact studies should be thorough. |
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22 Jan 07 - 05:50 PM (#1944794) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Charley Noble Windfarms would certainly have less impact that any other source of energy I'm familiar with. Hydro dams adversely affect river ecology and are now much more expensive to develop. Nuclear power is still more expensive to develop, there is no long-term solution for storing the waste, and there is always the risk of a catastropic accident from operating the technology or from sabotage. No one is seriously considering new oil-fired plants. Natural gas plants are competitive now but still fill the air with greenhouse gas, and the price of natural gas is likely to escalate in the next decade. New coal-fired plants are cleaner than the older ones but produce even more greenhouse gases. Biomass generators are competitive but also spew out greenhouse gases. Solar arrays are still much more expensive than wind turbines. What I'm not sure of is how costly windmill farms are to maintain. Some wind turbines have been abject failures in operation. Charley Noble |
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22 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM (#1944801) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey The last guest posting was me. "minke, humpback & right whales that inhabit the area." Do they swim in 13 to 40 ft water? "The reef growth that MMario mentions might work better in deeper water, not in the area where they're considering which is 13 to 40 feet deep" Why does the depth have anything to do with it? Some reefs are exposed at low tide. "the loss of marine life has been tragic.... Part of this is due to over fishing & part caused by development & pollution." How much is due to building structures in the ocean? Structures will bring back marine life. Other arguments by the Alliance to Protect Nantucket Sound: "The proposed plant represents seizure of 24 square miles of public trust lands in Nantucket Sound by a private for-profit venture, with no discussion or permission from the state and federal agencies that serve as the guardians of public trust and no associated payment" But it is Ok to seize private land for private commercial development. Isn't electricity production considered a public utility? "One of the many vessels to travel through this area is an oil barge that regularly visits Nantucket." With more non-fossil fuel electricity who needs the oil. We need to "get off of oil" but we need to keep it safe for hauling in oil????????? "Each turbine will have four flashing lights, for a total of 520 flashing red and amber lights, and the corners of the complex will be marked with fog horns. This will cause visual, noise and light pollution." Don't light houses have flashing light and fog horns? Sounds like a navigational aid to me. "Southeastern Massachusetts is an electricity exporter." How much of that is from fossil fuel or nuclear? "the result could be an environmental disaster." What is the result of continued burning of fossil fuels? "losses in property values for Cape Cod, and potentially Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard." Is this the real heart of the problem? The Alliance to protect Nantucket sound claims to be an environmental organization, yet its co-chairman Bill Koch has a business empire based on oil refining. Greenpeace which supports the project, believes that the Alliance to protect Nantucket sound is a front group for wealthy landowners who don't want to have to look at windmills from their houses on Martha's Vineyard The Alliance has a history of underhanded tactics. In Februay 2006, the co-founder of the group settled a defamation case for $15k brought by Cape Wind because he sent a fake press release with completely false information from a Hyannis company he did not represent. Cape Wind will donate the money to Housing Assistance Corporation of Cape Cod. The turbines would be sited between 4-11 miles offshore depending on the shoreline and would be visible on the horizon as half a degree high. At peak generation, the turbines will generate 420 megawatts of renewable electricity. This is enough to meet the needs of 420,000 homes. The project is expected to produce an average of 170 megawatts of electricity at any given time, about 75% of the average electricity demand for Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, and Nantucket island. It could offset close to a million tons carbon dioxide every year and should produce enough electricity to offset the consumption of 113 million gallons of oil annually. Currently 45% of the Cape region's electricity comes from the nearby Canal Power Plant in Sandwich, which burns bunker oil and natural gas. The Cape Wind proposal is relatively unique in that it would directly offset petroleum usage unlike most of the country where electrical power generation from oil is rare. Offshore wind farm near Copenhagen, Denmark. Offshore wind farms are usually built in shallow waters in order to limit the risk of collision with a large ship. |
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22 Jan 07 - 05:56 PM (#1944803) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Little Hawk Sounds to me on the whole like the wind farms are a good idea. |
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22 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM (#1944807) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey What makes Nimbys Nimbys is the fact that they will not oppose the project if it is built somewhere else. In fact they will support it as being necessary. The same thing goes for halfway houses, abortion clinics, drug treatment centers. They want all of these thing but build them elsewhere. |
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22 Jan 07 - 06:03 PM (#1944812) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,mg I am for blanketing the world with windfarms. Save what views you can and they don't have to be as high as possible...you might maximize electricity but not bird safety or airplane safety or noise for example. We each and every one of us have to take some cuts in beauty, what we want in our neighborhoods and treasured places, even our personal property values, so that we get out of the oil business. War is not worth every house in Nantuket, Aspen, etc. NOw, preferentially they would put a whole awful lot where farmers are struggling and birds do not fly and there is a poor economy so that locals benefit...South Dakota? Tornado Alley....and on every house and garage they can find. No reason we couldn't have 50% of our electricity from wind..I am guessing...read up on Germany and Denmark. In some areas, and I agree I would rather not look at them disturbing my ocean view (but I would rather look at a windmill than at a dead soldier and that is what we are ultimately talking about) ...but on a barren hillside they are beautiful. Look at Walla Walla, Washington. They are saving some family farms as families get more for allowing windmills than they do from farming. I hope they catch on here.....and we have enough wind that one good storm could power up San Francisco....mg |
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22 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM (#1944832) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey Are power plants less unsightly than wind farms? Are they less of an environmental hazard? Are they less of a danger? Blow them up and replace them with windfarms. Put a windmill in my back yard so I can watch my meter run backward. I don't think something sticking up 1/2 of a degree on the horizon is an eyesore. Look at that old rusty oil tanker going by. Is that ugly? Will it pollute my beach? Look at that light house. Is that picturesque or what? Some day the windmills will be considered quaint and pisturesque. 50 years in the future when we have fusion reactors there will be crusades to save the windmills. |
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22 Jan 07 - 07:37 PM (#1944924) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Barry Finn Yes all well & good but where are the proofs & assurences that by placing the farm in-shore will not be an enviormenal failure as opposed to siting them off-shore where they are more likely to be of more value (to the public, not to the owner) & less a danger to the enviormental. This is not a choice to be made by the energy industry whose not offeering up much in the way of research & study & may care less when they're weighing in against profits. First please an impact study & a look at alternatives, THAT'S All. The looks aren't important, it's the ecosystem that needs to be considered & that's not being looked at or considered. If it turns out that the farm doesn't harm the enviorment, fine but why is it that the Cape needs to except what's being shoved down their throats at face value? Yes, "NOT IN MY BACK YARD", at least until there's some 'scientific study' done not some opion of a stockholder. The other issue is that there in no regulartory board in place anywhere in the nation that deals directly with "in the water wind farms" & until there is it'll be a cluster fuck dealing with the problems that will certianly arise. Off shore oil has so many regulators & they're needed. Well so will wind farms. Imagine for a moment that for the 1st time some one wants to build an off-shore oil rig & it going to be in Nantucket Sound. No studies or research, no looking at the impact on marine life or the ecosystem, no one to look over the shoulder of the owners. Well, it's the same issue, who's looking after the welfare of the enviorment? We knw who looking after there own interests. Who's looking after ours? Yes Dickey, "minke, humpback & right whales that inhabit the area", they do they swim in 13 to 40 ft water! As well as the grouper, the loggerhead turtles, the dolphins, squid & most of the other marine anmials mentioned above, exceptions might be the tuna, sword & sail fish. "Why does the depth have anything to do with it? Some reefs are exposed at low tide." In all my youthful years on Nantucket sound I've never come across a "shallow water reef". I have in other climes, like the Crib, BWI & Hawaii, so I do know what they look like. "How much is due to building structures in the ocean? Structures will bring back marine life." We don't yet know but would like to. Because private land has been taken in he past (presently that's being changed) for commerical use doesn't mean it's ok & doesn't mean that it's fair treatment just because it's in the water either. "Each turbine will have four flashing lights, for a total of 520 flashing red and amber lights, and the corners of the complex will be marked with fog horns. This will cause visual, noise and light pollution." Don't light houses have flashing light and fog horns? Sounds like a navigational aid to me." Come on your arguements are getting a little tedious. Yes a flashing navigational light is an aid but an aid is 1st put in use to warn of an 'existing' hazzard. Again, a little bit more off-shore & not in the shipping areas would make them less of a hazzard. Can we have some reasonable info on that subject too, it would be helpful. Again no ones looking into these things. "The Alliance to protect Nantucket sound claims to be an environmental organization, yet its co-chairman Bill Koch has a business empire based on oil refining" It's to bad Bill's name is attached to the Alliance no group needs an asshole like him espically a group that backs the enviorment, though his treatment of women is where he really stands out. He is not the Alliance though & the Alliance is only one of many groups that presently oppose the Farm. If there were more study, research & info maybe there would be a lot less opposed to the project. "Greenpeace which supports the project, believes that the Alliance to protect Nantucket sound is a front group for wealthy landowners who don't want to have to look at windmills from their houses on Martha's Vineyard" Could you supply a source for the above, please. Barry |
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22 Jan 07 - 08:08 PM (#1944950) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: bubblyrat We have wind-turbines in England. They look spooky,they make a moaning noise,& they only work when there is a wind.Why don"t people just use LESS electricity ?? Why all those lights on at night,along the edge of motorways,in shopping malls,etc.?? What electrical appliances do people have in their homes today,compared with 50 years ago ?? A TV in every room? A washing-machine? Spin -dryer? Dishwasher? Deep-freeze ? Microwave? Ice-cream maker? Air conditioning? Immersion Heater for hot water?Underfloor heating ? Power tools? Vacuum cleaners?Refrigerator ?Outdoor quartz-halogen security lights ? Electric cooker? Deep fat fryer? Popcorn maker ?Blender? Juicer? And I expect there are more things !! The point is this-----The house I was born in,& lived in until I was 21 ( in 1969 ) had the following--- 7 electric lights (one in each room ) & 1 TV set. And that was all !! There were no other electrical appliances of any description, we didn"t need them,didn"t miss them, & we got along just fine !! SO--why do you actually NEED all this stuff in your lives ?? People got along without it for THOUSANDS of years----Why do YOU have to be so different? (and selfish !!) Get Real !! ( and enjoy the view of the stars that you"ll get !!) |
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22 Jan 07 - 08:22 PM (#1944962) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey Click The turbine clicky in my post and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_to_Protect_Nantucket_Sound How can anyone connect environmental damage from on shore development to marine construction. Are bridges harmful? Jettys? Where is the environmental damage done by fossil fuel power plants taken into the equation? When questions like this arise one should look to other areas and countries to put things into perspective. If it is OK for Denmark It should be good for the US. The main opposition I see are the rich property owners who don't want to see the turbines so they whip up a anti windmill campaign while at the same time bitching about burning fossil fuels, global warming and imported oil. That sir, is a three way clusterfuck. As you can see from my link it is better to put them in shallow water where ships do not go. Transmission of the power is more efficient, the closer they are to shore. |
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22 Jan 07 - 08:47 PM (#1944981) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey There once was a man from Nantucket Who kept all of his cash in a bucket. But his daughter, named Nan, Ran away with a man And as for the bucket, Nan took it. |
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22 Jan 07 - 08:56 PM (#1944990) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Don Firth I have read a number of articles and comments that verge on the disingenuous (if not downright hysterical) about wind turbines being "standing Cuisinarts" as far as birds are concerned. I have seen wind farms in action, and I have seen how slowly the blades turn, even in fairly brisk winds. And I have to ask, even if placed in known migratory bird paths, how many birds are actually likely to get whacked by a slow-moving rotor blade, anyway? A simple mind experiment says not very darned many. I don't know of any actually surveys that have been conducted (there must be some), but anecdotal evidence, at least, says that a bird smacked by one of a wind turbine's rotor blades is a rare bird indeed. The ground around these wind turbines is not littered with dead and injured birds, as many would have you believe. There is a great amount of NIMBY-ism about wind farms. But I, personally, think that a relatively open, windswept area populated by wind turbines with rotors moving at their usual stately pace is rather pleasing aesthetically. Considerably more pleasing to the eye—and the mind—and the lungs—and the outlook for the future regarding climate change—than a coal-fire power plant belching particulate matter and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Don Firth |
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22 Jan 07 - 10:11 PM (#1945044) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey So do we agree on something at last Don? People are always showing pictures of the windmills in The Netherlands as a quaint and pleasing feature of dutch culture. |
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23 Jan 07 - 12:54 AM (#1945122) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Barry Finn We still have many quaint windmills on the Cape too. They're all on dry land. Barry |
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23 Jan 07 - 12:58 AM (#1945125) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: GUEST,Dickey Sorry Don. I keep getting you mixed up with Ron Davies. |
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23 Jan 07 - 01:37 AM (#1945134) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Don Firth Don, Ron, yeah, that happens a lot, I guess. We often get accused of what the other said. But, what the heck. . . . Don Firth |
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23 Jan 07 - 03:44 PM (#1945840) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Little Hawk Don Davies and Ron Firth...no...wait...ummm...Ron Firth and...no...oh, blast! |
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23 Jan 07 - 06:48 PM (#1946036) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: Don Firth You'd be amazed at some of the things I've been called. . . . Don Firth |
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23 Jan 07 - 07:51 PM (#1946106) Subject: RE: BS: Windmill Farms in Nantucket Sound From: bubblyrat Dear Don, How do you propose to stop volcanos from spewing out particulate matter and carbon dioxide ?? What use would all the Green measures in the world be if Vesuvius blows again, which apparently it is due to do soon ?? The Earth knows best---it always has done and always will do !! |
