|
23 Jan 07 - 08:05 PM (#1946122) Subject: BS: Have we learned anything? From: 282RA I've done a lot of raving lately. Good to let off some steam. Good to debate and sometimes even fight about it. Despite my ravings, I love my country of course, no matter how venomous I may get. Your country couldn't make you this mad if you didn't love that country and are pained to see it behave in this fashion. Americans are well-meaning but we have to understand that is no excuse for bad results. We can't change what's happened. We do indeed need to move forward. But when all is said and done, have Americans learned anything? That's what troubles me more than anything else. Did we learn anything from this? We paid a huge cost in Vietnam and we didn't seem to learn anything because here we are stuck where we are. Most Americans are saying the invasion of Iraq was wrong. Are they serious? Why then did they reelect George Bush? Do most Americans truly understand WHY the Iraq invasion was wrong? It's not because we're losing (though we are), it's because we had no ethical basis for invading Iraq in the first place. Do most Americans understand that because it sure doesn't seem like it to me or how could they only just gotten around to finally deciding it was the wrong thing to do? We're holding people without trials, without evidence. We torture them, we've shipped them to secret locations abroad to torture them there. The govt listens in on our phone calls and emails without warrants while they stuff their pockets with bribes and special interest money. Is this govt by the people and for the people? Looks like govt by the govt for the govt to me. Do we seem concerned about this? Does this seem to be a big subject around the office? Are we learning anything from this? What should we be learning from this? I keep hearing soldiers say they don't want their buddies to have died in vain. That's certainly understandable but unfortunately for them, if they are considering some kind of victory in Iraq it's not going to happen. But that doesn't mean that our dead died in vain. Seems to me the best way not to have let these brave men and women die in vain is to remember the circumstances that led up to their needless deaths and vow with our souls to punish the wrongdoers and never repeat their vile crimes. If we've learned something from this then I think we will have honored our dead as well as we can hope. To learn nothing from this miserable disaster is the greatest dishonor to the fallen that we can render to them and to the generations that follow. The cost has been dear and is going to climb far, far higher over the next few years. Don't let us come away from it blaming anyone but ourselves for allowing it to happen. Don't let us seek scapegoats. Let us punish the guilty and mend the holes torn in our beloved Constitution. And this time, let us truly enshrine and internalize its principles and ideas. Let us consign this period to some terrible but temporary Dark Age when we were run by a madman. Will this be what we learn from this? Do we truly understand that, in the name of civilization, we must never again do these things? |
|
23 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM (#1946149) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Scoville It's our GOVERNMENT that has to understand it. Please note that the majority of Americans no longer even agree with the government, and yet it plods along in the same direction. |
|
23 Jan 07 - 10:13 PM (#1946184) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Bee Didn't you people stage a revolution the last time you had problems with a 'King George'? Just sayin... |
|
23 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM (#1946185) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: dianavan You have to admit, there isn't a very big choice when it comes to elections. |
|
23 Jan 07 - 10:24 PM (#1946189) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: robomatic I learned that it sucks to lose. So I hope we win. Go Petraeous! |
|
24 Jan 07 - 12:23 AM (#1946237) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Bee-dubya-ell I thought we already won. Saddam's dead, isn't he? The Iraqi's have a freely elected government, don't they? Wasn't that the "mission"? If we haven't won, then what does "win" mean? Only ten Iraqi civilians per day killed by their own people, instead of a hundred? Is that winning? How about five per day? One a day? If you want to define winning as total cessation of violence, forget it. Send in all the troops you want and keep them there forever and the violence is never going to stop all together. Someone is going to have to decide what level of violence is "acceptable" and when that level has been achieved, leave. Holding out for "victory" in the conventional sense of the word is a pipedream. |
|
24 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM (#1946400) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Bunnahabhain I though it was George the Third who caused all that trouble, and you're only up to two at the moment... |
|
24 Jan 07 - 06:02 AM (#1946411) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Scrump Most Americans are saying the invasion of Iraq was wrong. Are they serious? Why then did they reelect George Bush? Similarly in the UK, you could ask why did they re-elect Blair? The answer is that the Iraq war is just one issue on which people vote - others (at least in the UK) include (but are not restricted to) the economy, health services, law & order, education, transport, defence and foreign policy (which I guess includes the Iraq war). The voters presumably weigh up the various things that are important to them, and vote for who they believe will best represent their interests. I guess although many people disapprove of the Iraq war, they don't feel it outweighs domestic issues that probably affect them more directly. Whether they got their assessment right or not is a different question. |
|
24 Jan 07 - 09:47 PM (#1947247) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: The Fooles Troupe "The voters presumably weigh up the various things that are important to them, and vote for who they believe will best represent their interests." Interestingly in OZ, public opinion was dead against Beasley - especially after he 'shafted' Latham so he could get back in power.... now that he has 'retired to the back bench', hey look! Labour has shot up in the polls... Even Fascist Johnny is looking worried... :-) |
|
24 Jan 07 - 10:00 PM (#1947256) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: GUEST,282ra >>You have to admit, there isn't a very big choice when it comes to elections.<< Normally, I agree, but Bush changed that dynamic. I don't think there has ever been a president this bad. The idea that this individual walked into the White House and started a war on a whim and a pack of lies. What other president would ever have done such a thing? Anybody is better than George Bush. He makes elections easy. You vote for whoever is running against him because no matter how bad he may be, he won't begin to stack up to Bush. But we elected this guy, I can't believe it, but we did. Therefore it is imperative that we learn from this. We must not ever make a mistake like this again. There was really no excuse for it. We must not ever do this again. |
|
24 Jan 07 - 10:18 PM (#1947260) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: number 6 I thought you would have learned years ago ... Mcnamara, Nixon. lies, lies, and lies ... and maybe too much pride thrown in. biLL |
|
24 Jan 07 - 10:38 PM (#1947268) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Rapparee George Washington George H. Bush George W. Bush...George the Third. First fruits and tithes are odious things And so are bishops, priests and kings. -- The original epitath on the stone of James Madison's father, chiseled off by the family in the 19th Century. |
|
24 Jan 07 - 11:51 PM (#1947295) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: GUEST,Art Thieme ...and the beat goes on. Me and friends were just as amazed when Richard Nixon was reelected. Pretty insane times we thought, and the American people seemed blind to what was so apparent. As outrageous as Bush's win for a second term seemed to about 50% of the electorate here in the USA, that's exactly how we felt about Nixon's win back then. It seemed incomprehensible. ----- It does seem that we are all too willing to give our leaders eight years of rope to play with. And it seems that around the six year point----that is when these emperors lack of clothing is just too obvious to ignore any longer. Alas, Art |
|
25 Jan 07 - 01:04 AM (#1947316) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Amos There's a crop of fresh suckers born every day, don't forget. A |
|
25 Jan 07 - 01:11 AM (#1947318) Subject: RE: BS: Have we learned anything? From: Peace Amos is right. Pic here. |
