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24 Jan 07 - 11:35 PM (#1947288) Subject: BS - Re-education Camps From: John on the Sunset Coast I think I am beginning to see an unseemly trend in this country, and it has nothing to do with conservatives. A star of Grey's Anatomy (a show I never watch) outs a fellow cast member as being gay, and even uses a no-no word to describe him. A star of Seinfeld (a show I seldom watched) goes off on a couple of black hecklers and shouts a no-no word multiple times. An actor/producer of films in archaic languages (movies I've not seen) is stopped for a possible DUI, and goes on an anti-semitic rant. Each of these people are called out for their action and express contrition for their bad behavior. This is not accepted, so they make pilgrimage to 'offended groups' and apologize some more, but it is still not good enough. Each has 'entered' into some sort of rehab to show he is truly contrite, where he will be analyzed and forced to renounce his deep (or perhaps temporary) alienation from from the way good people think. I don't know how this strikes you, but it sure smacks of the re-education camps of the lamented Soviet Union or Pol Pot's Cambodia to me. George Orwell warned us about things like this; McCarthy must be laughing at his detractors who now act much as he did. |
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24 Jan 07 - 11:55 PM (#1947296) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: heric Don't say faggot, nigger or kyke. Shouldn't take a whole buttload of eddycation to get that right. Permit me to elucidate: Send'm to camp. |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:11 AM (#1947301) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Peace Send Bush so he can learn to say NEW--KLEE--UR |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:20 AM (#1947302) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: John on the Sunset Coast Send Jimma Carter (who is a NEW_KLEE_UR engineer) and Lyndon Johnson to that same center. Ah, heric, someday you may something someone else doesn't like, and get your butt in a sling. |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:21 AM (#1947304) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Sorcha NO, NO, NO! It's Nuk Uh Lar!!!! Hey, it's the Land of the Free, doh? |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:24 AM (#1947305) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: heric Oh I see where you're coming from. Yes, the public whippings, grovelling and interest-group spokespersons are all pathetic and unpleasant to watch. Still - so simple at the outset. |
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25 Jan 07 - 06:16 AM (#1947426) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Liz the Squeak Behind all that camera-grabbing, tear jerking (or jerk tearing) pathos, on the way to the 'Rehab' education centre, are they actually really sorry, or just showing us how sorry they could be when the cameras are on them. Look at the arguments over Jade Goody and her racist outbursts on UK TV recently. She got all contrite and publicly sorry, and gets a free holiday to India to 're-educate' her. Would it work for me if I insulted my Caribbean colleague? Probably not... I'd get fired and the closest I'd get to Barbados would be a slap upside the head with a good hard Bajan hand! LTS |
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25 Jan 07 - 06:59 AM (#1947450) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: jeffp I'm not seeing anybody being rounded up at gunpoint. Just public people making public gaffes and following up with public acts of contrition. All voluntary. |
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25 Jan 07 - 09:52 AM (#1947566) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: John on the Sunset Coast Yeah, jeffp, its real'voluntary' when pressure groups threaten your career unless you get re-educated to group think. |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:00 AM (#1947573) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: JeremyC You shouldn't have to be "reeducated" so that you'll stop using offensive language. Regardless of how you think, it's your manners, not some external dictum, that should be telling you not to make racist, sexist, or homophobic remarks. It's part of "getting along with other people," and if you think you're above that, you have more problems than simple racism (etc.). |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM (#1947587) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: jeffp And how much can these "pressure groups" threaten a public figure's career? I doubt very many people have stopped going to Mel Gibson movies or watching Gray's Anatomy. It's all PR. |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:21 AM (#1947592) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: John on the Sunset Coast Exactly, JeremyC. One shouldn't use those words. And if a person does use those words s/he should be chastised for them. My complaint is that in 'kinder, gentler times' one's contrition was an acceptable action. We now require a dog and pony show before an apology is accepted--and even then some folks will never forgive. |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:38 AM (#1947617) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Bee I don't think 'we' are requiring the dog and pony show. I think publicists/agents/advisors saw that when a star got out of hand and caught with drugs and other bad behaviour, sending them to rehab got the courts off their backs sooner and got them back into moneymaking quicker. It also at one time (remember Betty Ford?)made them seem more like 'one of us', as in not perfect. Now, the same set of professional 'starmakers' is trying to spin that set of perceptions into 're-educating' idiots who also happen to be moneymaking stars. I don't think anyone is fooled by this trend, and that's all I think it is, a trend that will not work and will end soon, because it won't work. I still think all of the above mentioned stars are bigoted idiots who got caught out, and are just spinning like mad to keep their careers afloat. I do not see this as a forboding trend with regard to the general public. It's just an ugly side of showbiz. |
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25 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM (#1947658) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: John on the Sunset Coast Bee you are partially correct. Publicists may make the decision to put stars in rehab, and may have them genuflect to GLAD or the ADL or some spokesman for other communities, and that is because a spokesman like Al Sharpton or Abe Foxman insert themselves into the problem. My whole point is that a person cannot quietly atone for his or her spoken transgression. The stars are the tip of the iceberg in this trend. It has been going on for years in government workplaces, and in private industry. I cannot tell you how many 'sensitivity training' sessions I have been in--sometimes as a facilitator--during my years in HR departments, and that was over 30 years ago! And still they go on. My test for bigotry--and it is only my test--is how a person treats another person, not what s/he says about them. In fact, I would rather be with a person who occasionally makes a slip of the tongue, but otherwise treats people well, than a smarmy, mealymouthed person who says the right thing, but does the wrong thing. |
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25 Jan 07 - 11:15 AM (#1947659) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Bee-dubya-ell The people John mentioned have chosen to perform acts of public contrition because they've exhibited behaviors that conflict with the public personae they've adopted. It has nothing to do with who they really are, only the public perception of who they are. If they don't get their personae patched up, they're going to lose a lot of money and prestige. There've been plenty of other public figures who'd just say "Fuck you! Get over it!" They've adopted somewhat antisocial, non-PC public personae and nobody expects them to be contrite. Can you imagine John Belushi or Sam Kenison apologizing for insulting someone? |
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25 Jan 07 - 11:38 AM (#1947686) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: JeremyC I think publicly chastising someone for making a rude comment is just as rude as the comment was in the first place. In this case, the best way to deal with rude behavior that you consider unforgiveable is to exclude that person from your life. Since the way these people enter our lives is on screen (not much of an intrusion, when you think about it--I sure as hell wouldn't want Tom Cruise in my house, but I may be capable of watching him in a film, if it were possible to separate his personality from his performance), don't watch interviews with them, and don't watch their films or television shows. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of people who want everyone to know they were offended by xyz comment, because they feel that they should punish people they don't know personally, not to mention hurting their career if possible, for comments that were not made to or about them, or even in their presence. The practice seems excessive and inappropriate to me, not to mention, in an advocacy group, this is a trivial issue. Why spend your time complaining about being offended when you should be fighting discrimination and so on. ...or are they punishing them because, if they make offensive comments, they may discriminate against their group at some point in the future? If that's the case, I suppose it's a familiar tactic, but it isn't very reasonable. |
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25 Jan 07 - 02:27 PM (#1947860) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Bee Responding to John on the Sunset Coast and ignoring guest1:49pm... Nothing is perfect, and that goes for the stuff HR departments do, which besides the sensitivity training you describe, have gone through periods of toying with all sorts of idiotic pseudo-psych testing of potential employees. I am most familiar with two areas of employment: industrial construction trades (mostly unionized) and public childcare (government regulated to the max). In childcare, it is extremely important to be aware of stereotyping and careless use of hurtful language, because children are involved. You cannot have people making bigoted remarks, however harmless they might seem in another environment, around young children. If a staff person in this situation, no matter how goodhearted, can't walk the walk, they need sensitivity training, IMO. In the trades, there have been two serious outcomes that I have seen in relation to bigotry and sensitivity training. One was the attitude of a small but verbally abusive segment of the mostly male workforce when small numbers of women began to take up industrial trades. Over twenty years I've seen the opposition to women in these jobs reduced to almost nothing, and I believe the message drummed in by constant reminders from HR sensitivity trainers has been part of that, along with familiarity. Twenty years ago a man might ignore a co-worker's rants against working beside women, even though he himself did not mind - now, not so much. The second is that it has mitigated what was once a poisonous climate of 'making fun of people' for whatever physical or mental differences they might have. I've known trades workers in the past whose daily lives were made miserable by a few 'funny' idiots they had to work with. Now, those same idiots may still have the same attitudes, and be just as 'funny' in private life, but they are no longer able to torment a fellow worker for being different in whatever way. So, John, I'm sure you've seen people go overboard on these issues, and seen some people abuse the system for personal gain, but I think you have reason to be proud of your work: it has made a positive difference over the long haul. |
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25 Jan 07 - 02:33 PM (#1947868) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Cluin I saw Harry Shearer being interviewed on CNN sortly after the Michael Richard's rant episode. He said that if it got him 5 uninterrupted minutes on Letterman, he'd be happy to insult someone too. |
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25 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM (#1948000) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Bee There is that aspect of star-studded idiocy, Cluin. |
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25 Jan 07 - 08:29 PM (#1948177) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Cluin The Michael Richards thing wouldn't have amounted to anything if an audience member hadn't been recording it on his cellphone and later posted it on the Web. He wasn't the first person to flip out and fuck up and he won't be the last. We'll just get to see them all now. |
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25 Jan 07 - 08:30 PM (#1948178) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Cluin The Cult of Personality is a two edged sword with a slippery hilt. |
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25 Jan 07 - 08:45 PM (#1948183) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: John on the Sunset Coast Hmmm, I see a reference to a 'guest at 1:49pm', but no such posting. Has this been excised from the forum? JeremyC, I do believe that people who err publicly deserve rebuke. I just deplore dog and pony shows, and believe that apologies should normally suffice. BTW, a conditional apology is not an apology, you know, "If I have offended...." An apology must be direct and personal, "I'm sorry I did/said...to you." |
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26 Jan 07 - 06:16 PM (#1949140) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Riginslinger While this discussion has been going on, the UN passed a resolution against denying the Holocaust. And in Austria, they threw a guy in jail for denying the Holocaust. |
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26 Jan 07 - 07:16 PM (#1949208) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: John on the Sunset Coast As much as I detest and despise Holocaust deniers, those responses are wrong. |
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27 Jan 07 - 10:12 AM (#1949593) Subject: RE: BS - Reeducation Camps From: Riginslinger I agree. I don't understand how people can deny the holocaust. It seems like it would be simply obvious, but there are folks denying evolution at the same time. But now, Jimmy Carter published to book, hoping to explain the problems in the Middle East, and people are after him for not making a big enough deal about the Holocaust. Maybe you just can't win. |