Lyr Add: Seeds of More (Roger Gall -- for Kosovo)

24 Mar 99 - 09:52 PM (#65738)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: bseed(charleskratz)

Very powerful, Shambles, and a scary concept. I can't imagine what the heck we're doing there except proving that Clinton has balls. There is certainly no justification for the bombing, either under the UN or NATO charters, or under the principals of American law. --seed

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25 Mar 99 - 10:50 AM (#65848)
Subject: Lyr Add: DOWN ON THE BORDER (Roger Gall)
From: The Shambles

I put this one in the Xenophobia Thread, but it probably sits here just as well.

Down on the border

Down on the border, where do you draw that line?
Well here I can lay down my life for a land that will never be mine
If I was standing on the outside, you wouldn't let me in
It might be my religion or the colour of my skin

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

They're telling you life should be rosy, "ain't you living in your own backyard"?
The stakes are getting higher, time to play that nationalist card
That joker's a wild one, eager to get out of the pack
It ain't so easy, trying to get the bastard back

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Does the fruit really taste better, just because it's home grown?
Why should there be an improvement, when we are ruled by one of our own?
When they come and they tell you. it's time to make a stand
Remember the good and the bad apples, growing on your land

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Whatever country claims you, it's no measure of your worth
You can take no credit, it's just an accident of birth
Why not strive for a union, a federation of states?
Sustained by co-operation, where nations are maintained on hate

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Roger Gall 1997

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25 Mar 99 - 01:46 PM (#65888)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Bert

I have very mixed feelings on this one. I don't want us to go killing Yugoslavians. I don't want Americans to die fighting the war.

BUT, are we (as humans, not just Americans) going to sit back and let another holocaust happen. We too often turn our backs when people are being massacred 'in another country'. Perhaps by taking a firm stand this time we will send a message to the rest of the world that we () are not going to permit "ethnic cleansing" as they are calling it this time.

Bert.

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25 Mar 99 - 02:08 PM (#65892)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Sean MacRuaraidh

Bert

1. Is it wise to get involved in a civil war in another country ?

2. If its obvious what side to take then is that because the people one side are inherently less evil or is it that they are simply weaker ?

3. What can NATO gain by upsetting the balance of power in this region ?

I am not saying that I do not deplore murder in all its forms. I am just wondering what is really going on. Will we ever find out ?

I have been taught to be cynical !

Sean MacRuaraidh

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25 Mar 99 - 02:25 PM (#65897)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Bert

Sean,

1, probably not, but we're Mudcateers and are seldom wise.
2, they are 'simply' being murdered.
3, I think that Tito proved that strong arm tactics CAN bring stability to that region.
Will we even know what is really going on? I doub't it, probably a profit in it for someone.

Bert.

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26 Mar 99 - 05:12 AM (#66066)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Sean MacRuaraidh

Bert,

Oh well - as long as another world war doesn't start or the internet doesn't fall over (it was supposedly built to withstand wars )

Sean

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26 Mar 99 - 12:50 PM (#66129)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Penny

I like the song.

I don't feel comfortable with the concept of "civil war", being something that others should not be involved with. I think the images of the English, and the American Civil Wars have something to do with this, as both can be seen as roughly equal groups of armed soldiers, fighting traditionally staged battles that can be re-enacted. When a group claiming to be the rightful government oppresses part of the population of "it's" territory, and that population, even if less effectively armed, turns and fights back, is that the same thing? When there are massacres and torture, that is not a concept of civil war that should be ignored. No government has the right to dig non-combatants into mass graves. It doesn't really have the right (though it may argue that it has the duty) to put combatants there, either. Using the words "civil war", like "private fight" can be an excuse for non-involvement. But going in as we are, bombing who knows who, and almost certainly not those responsible, is not going to solve anything, either. Hitler bombing London didn't lower morale, and remove support from the British government. Just the opposite. Why should people think that the other side is different? It's like old films, where the hero and the villain are fighting. The hero is wounded, and it only adds to his determination and strength. The villain is wounded, and the sight of his own blood weakens him, muddles him, angers him, and causes him to lose. Not like life. I don't know what the solution is. Trying to communicate with the people of the country concerned, past the watchers, and showing them the truth, whatever it may be, might help. How?

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26 Mar 99 - 01:46 PM (#66138)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: katlaughing

Isn't "civil war" an oxymoron? And, didn't Monica prove Clinton had balls?

And, if we and NATO really care about the oppressed, tortured, and murderedwhat are the Chinese doing in Tibet?!

War, uncivil or not, is always arbitrary, always about money and power.

Like Marion Zimmer Bradley created in her SF "Darkover" series, I think the world would see a lot less of war and killing, if we all had to go back to using hand-to-hand, face to face weapons, nothing long range, so that one has to look in the so-called enemies' eyes to kill them or be killed. But that is an utopian dream, I know, 'cause we all know the weapons manufacturers, including Uncle Sam will NEVER give up such a lucrative cash cow!

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26 Mar 99 - 02:05 PM (#66143)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: AlistairUK

No one will ever giv up this lucrative cash cow. It's the only way to go according to history. But hey who gives a shit about them there little tibetan people hidden away in the middle of the Himalayas? I mean Yugoslavia is right on our doorstep fer God's Sake! Bit closer to home and next to the other cyclopean death machine Europe, partner in crime of the Big Bad United States.

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26 Mar 99 - 05:41 PM (#66180)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Jon W.

The Serbs are looking in the Kosovar's eyes and killing them hand to hand, face to face. And the Kosovars are doing the same to the Serbs any chance they get. Which is one reason this particularly uncivil 600 year old war is not going to be changed much by bombing from a distance. You don't take out foot soldiers with cruise missiles. Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers during WWII couldn't keep the Serbs under their control, and the Nazis were willing to be just as barbaric as the Serbs or more. I don't think the Americans are (I could be wrong, though). Are we willing to pay the kind of price necessary to stop the genocide? I doubt it. What we should do is open our borders to any ethnic Albanians (or Serbs for that matter) who want to escape the violence, and leave the rest to drink their own blood and eat their own flesh.

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28 Mar 99 - 03:49 PM (#66510)
Subject: Lyr Add: ISLANDS AND OASIS (Roger Gall)
From: The Shambles

If we could only refrain from placing labels on human beings, men, women and children, exactly like ourselves, it would maybe make it more difficult for us to cut them down like weeds.

According to a NATO spokesman today, there are a half a million people being forced to leave their homes in Kosovo...................... This is for them and all our other victims, refugees and homeless people everywhere.

Islands and Oasis

Islands and oasis, all the safe places.
Shade from the sun, a place in the warm,
Somewhere to lie,
In the eye
Of the storm
Islands and oasis, it's written on their faces
They can't run, too tired to fight
Leave me please
In peace
Tonight

I've crossed the borders of many lands
I'm used to orders and commands
But those words still cut you like a knife
Why must it be so hard, to lead a simple life?
We don't expect to know the reasons
For we are but strangers here to freedom
We're travelling with no destination
Just keeping low, with no, high expectations

Islands and oasis, all the safe places.
Shade from the sun, a place in the warm,
Somewhere to lie,
In the eye
Of the storm
Islands and oasis, it's written on their faces
They can't run, too tired to fight
Leave me please
In peace
Tonight

In the dark streets of this town
There are some places to be found
Where you can be, but not belong
For soon they will return, to move you on
Your home may be a place of safety
But it was no such place for me
I left the violence and the lies
But the secrets still creep in
When I close my eyes

Islands and oasis, all the safe places.
Shade from the sun, a place in the warm,
Somewhere to lie,
In the eye
Of the storm
Islands and oasis, it's written on their faces
They can't run, too tired to fight
Leave me please
In peace
Tonight

Roger Gall 1998

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28 Mar 99 - 11:29 PM (#66591)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Pete M

Hi Kat, this is part of something I said in the Xenophobia thread, but it addresses your point about war being nastier because of its remoteness,

"The idea that warfare would be lessened if combat was face to face has been discussed, amongst others, by people as diverse as Desmond Morris and John Keegan, but whilst the press concentrates on the technology and remoteness of aerial bombardment and so called precision munitions, lets not forget that wars ultimately are still fought and won by the PBI, who still have to fight hand to hand, stick bayonets in people, and shoot them at ranges of feet or less."

I think that what is needed is something more fundamental and much harder than refraining from labelling others; it's to stop labelling ourselves. If we could stop believing that we are Irish, Serb, English, Negro or whatever, and insisting on our right to perpetuate our culture, race, country; then 90% of the reasons wars are fought disappears.

Can't see it happening though.

Pete M

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28 Mar 99 - 11:56 PM (#66595)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Lonesome EJ

Kat...I think that perhaps the biggest difference between our actions re Tibet and our actions re Kosovo have to do with the amount of real information flowing from the two places. Substantive proof of the Serbian atrocities are on CNN every day. We are the witnesses who stand by and watch and refuse to" get involved." Or we do get involved, with the willingness to pay the price of that involvement.

I don't agree with those who say our actions are the result of a blood and money-hungry military complex. Whatever is said of Clinton (much of it true), I believe he is highly motivated by human empathy. I think that is what is behind our actions, not greed or imperialism.

My great fear is that the only way to stem the genocide will be with forcible occupation of the country, and that many of the lives of our youth will be lost there...LEJ

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29 Mar 99 - 12:15 AM (#66598)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: katlaughing

LEJ: I agree with your assessment of Clinton. I've always believed he and Hillary really were humanitarian in their desires for people. However, I do believe that once anyone of good intent gets embroiled in any high office, but esp. that of president, they no longer are able to do just what they want. If they didn;t already know how to play the game, they quickly learn and adjust accordingly, all the while,some of them, trying to keep hold of their principles and wishes for the greater good.

I am sickened by the politicians, including Wyoming's, who say they support the troops but not the Pres. I think that is a chicketshit, fencing sitting, attempt to cover their own asses. At least Clinton has the balls to step up to the plate and swing, while they stand on the sidelines taking namby-pamby potshots at him and paying lip service to those who would like to bring him down.

I a NOT a warmonger. I am really conflicted about this whole thing. Part of me would like to see us go in there and get it over with, whatever THAT means. Another part of me agrees that we should just let it go on and open our borders, as Jon W. said, but there is so much xenophobic fear here, that I can just see the morons gathering up in protests of rage at the threat to "their jobs, homes, security, etc", as they perceive it to be. The other part of me would really love it, if we COULD stop labeling ourselves, as Pete M. says, and start the new millenium with a better understanding of one another and ourselves.

Gotta go, there's the doorbell at the chat room. More later. Thanks, kat

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29 Mar 99 - 05:24 AM (#66638)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Pete M

Like Shambles and others, war in the Balkans frightens me more than I care to admit. It is not that I don't care about Tibet, the Kurds or the Kuwaities, but the ability of the balkans to drag Europe into a regional conflict is too recent and too real.

Mick asked in another thread waht we could do and if there weas such a thing as a "just" war. I believe that there can be, and that perhaps WWII was. The problem with the Yugoslavian problem is that there is no obvious "villan state". There may be individual villans, but you can't remove them with cruise missiles and air strikes.

Seed, you asked what justification there is in American or International law for the action in Kosovo, I agree there is none, but I believe that this is irrelevant. What we are faced with is a moral dilemma. To use an analogy, if two neigbouring families are fighting and the children are being injured, most people would say that there is a moral obligation to stop the fight. To do that however, you have to get in the middle and risk being hurt yourself. If you stay outside and throw rocks, the only likely effect is that both families will turn on you.

So - we are morally obliged to stop indescriminate slaughter of civilians, but to do so we must be prepared to send our own young men to die, to accept that we ourselves will kill innocents, and that what ever action you choose, no-one will thank you.

You cannot bomb people into tolerance and you cannot take effective "Police action" if the politicians and public will only accept 'risk free' tactics. The concept of National sovereignty and the right of a government to do as it will within its own borders cannot be sustained if we are concerned with moral issues.

Tragically, it seems to me that the only way out that will actually protect those we are seeking to help, would be to do a deal with Milosovic that makes it worth his while. Hardly a moral solution, but maybe a pragmatic one.

Pete M

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29 Mar 99 - 05:39 AM (#66642)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: Frank in the swamps

The problem is that Slob M. is a dictator, most of the Serb civilians don't have a lot of knowledge of what is really happening to the ethnic Albanians. A truer assesment of Serb character can be made after their soldiers come home, tell their families what happened, and we see their reaction. But of course, the orphans will still be orphans, and the dead will still be dead.

Frank i.t.s.

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31 Mar 99 - 09:15 PM (#67203)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: bet

Shambles, thanks for the song. I truely says a lot.

Lonesome EJ, Your thoughts generate my feelings. I also fear that to stop it there will be more blood shed. The meda does play such an important part of the whole picture. Sunday, on what would normally be a 20 minute drive, it took my daughter 1 hour and 15 minutes to get on to the Aviano Airbase to pick up her husband. She had to wind around reporters, reporters, reporters and a few Italians who love to watch the planes take off. What we don't know about we can't try to fix. What we do know about we we usually want to fix even though we can't without much sacrafice.

Where is the peace???? bet

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17 Apr 99 - 05:54 AM (#71534)
Subject: RE: LYRICS ADD Seeds Of More--SONG FOR KOSOVO
From: The Shambles

This one continued here Is Anyone as scared?

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