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18 Feb 07 - 05:00 PM (#1971905) Subject: Tech: Graphics card issues From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on another part of the networ As some may have gathered I have been been seeking to invest in productivity by playing with the netowrk and its components again.... As a result I have disocvered two graphics card oddities. 1. On the old PIII933 (that I am on at the moment) I have an nVidia card dating from about the date of the host machine, ie about 2000. It is being a nuisance. Every so often, mu screen goes blank or says "no signal". A firm downwards wiggle of the lead to the screen, at the compuater end, can resurrect the screen. It is not the AGP slot, I have re-seated the card several times. It is not the lead, I have swapped it. That leaves the output socket on the card. I ahve re-soldered the connections of the socket to the PCB (!) - no change. That I think makes it dirty connections inside the socket. I do not fancy mounting a new socket on the PCB even if one could be got, and getting inside the back of the socket looks unlikely. All I can think of is to squirt WD40 or electroclens (switch cleaner) in the socket (with the machine off) and let it dry before re-trying. What have I got to lose (except the mother board)? 2. I did try an old Matrox board I took out of a P233 Win95 machine - so old it fitted a PCI slot not an AGP slot - butit would not talk to the board or maybne to WInME. Boot failure! Repeatedly. I wasn't expecting that. Views? |
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18 Feb 07 - 06:13 PM (#1971963) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: The Fooles Troupe Old things may not work properly - just ask any folkie.... |
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18 Feb 07 - 06:21 PM (#1971976) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard WD40 is probably the solution (pardon the pun!) - it sounds like a pin isn't connecting properly. Just hope that it isn't a dry joint inside the plug! I've seen that reboot thing happen. One possibility is that the BIOS was set to look only at the AGP, and can't cope with nothing being there. A BIOS reset may well fix it. |
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19 Feb 07 - 03:39 AM (#1972236) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge No Bernard it is not the plug - that is on the lead and I have the identical symptoms with two different leads. It might be the socket but I'll be surprised if there are any soldered connections between the pin contacts inside the socket and the other pins that come out through the PCB. Your idea on the BIOS sounds viable though. I must have a look at that (during a period while the connection is good) - but the snag is that if I choose a different option in the BIOS, then the AGP slot will be disabled, and if the PCI card does not work then there will be no way to see the screen options to setthe bios back to addressing the AGP slot. |
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19 Feb 07 - 11:06 AM (#1972532) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: JohnInKansas The Wikipedia article on AGP slots does indicate that swapping cards between computers with different chipsets may find "incompatibilities due to firmware." The article isn't clear whether that's computer firmware or card firmware. The AGP standards were pretty good, but there are apparently a number of "flavors" that various manufacturers used that aren't well documented. AGP appeared during the fairly early Win98 days, but it's extremely rare now to find a new PC offered by "consumer market" makers that has AGP slots. Virtually all of the "standard" machines offered are using PCI for graphics cards, and my local retail shops don't appear to be aware that AGP cards are still available. (And most new "assembly line" computers don't have enough PCI slots to allow much in the way of upgrading - or even maintenance. They may have several slots, but they ship them ASF = All Slots Full.) John |
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19 Feb 07 - 12:23 PM (#1972589) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard If it is the socket, it is likely that the profile of one or more connectors has been strained and not making proper contact with its mating pin. If you have a scrap card, maybe swapping the socket across is an option? Don't worry about the BIOS - if you have an 'Auto' setting you could use that instead. |
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19 Feb 07 - 02:28 PM (#1972722) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge I could I suppose buy a new AGP graphics card - the voltages changed at some stage and I don't know whether the old ones are the low voltage or the high voltage. They are still listed in computer mags like MicroMart. I do have a spare graphics card, but it is currently in use on my Athlon 2000 machine because there for some reason the onboard graphics would only let me see 16 colours in 480x640 (not very useful). I don't have a scrap graphics card - but WAIT! I have two scrap motherboards both with onboard graphics!! That might be worth a try! The nVidia is worth saving as in 2000 it was a pretty punchy card with an onboard processor and memory - or I could spend £20. Option 2 is I have a friend who has lots of scrap computers and he might have an AGP card if I could find the drivers on the internet. I could also modify a lead by putting tiny blobs of solder on the pins in the plug to make them a tighter fit... Fiddly.... Option 3 is to get a newer PCI card (but not too new in design for compatibility reasons) as the motherboard has oodles of PCI slots (currently it sports 2 modems, one of them on a funny slot that might be an AMR slot, a network card, the graphics card, and a TV card, and still 2 PCI slots spare). I ahve my eye on a soundcard too, and then it would be all slots full. If I achieve that I might have to mod and light the case..... |
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19 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM (#1972775) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge Hmm. Scrap one theory. I have checked the individual contacts in the socket - all of them are nice tight fits on the end of a paperclip, just like the ones I tested on the scrap motherboards. And it looks as if the flipping socket on the card is designed to fit into the metal mounting bar, so a socket off a motherboard won't do. Time to take card off motherboard again and check for continuity between pins and solder tags. |
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19 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM (#1972777) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard Ho hum! What did people go back to before they had drawing boards? |
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19 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM (#1972827) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge I suspect they went back into the garage and found a lump hammer. I have tested with a fairly good meter continuity between the socket connectors and the solder tags on the PCB. AOK. I have with heart in mouth squirted WD40 into the socket connectors and rubbed fine pins in and out of the connectors to de-tarnish the connectors. No change. But when I wiggle the lead to get the output back, with the side off the machine, I can see I am flexing the PCB significantly. I suspect a broken track or a dry joint elsewhere on the graphcs card PCB. At this point I give up. I am not going to try manually to re-solder every solder joint on a graphics card, nor to try to trace and solder fly-leads across tracks on a graphics card PCB. I suppose I could have a look at the BIOS settings and see if I can find anything that might get the Matrox card up on the PCI bus. Or I can put the data off the C-drive onto the D drive, put the D-Drive onto the spare machine, and see if I can get the spare machine to work as a print driver, while I save up for a new graphics card. Ho Hum. |
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19 Feb 07 - 04:49 PM (#1972888) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard Oh dear... |
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19 Feb 07 - 05:06 PM (#1972898) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge Never mind.... THe old card was an nVidia Geforce 2 which was AGP4x. Do I have to stick to AGP4x or can I fit an AGP8x card - some are quite affordable....? |
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19 Feb 07 - 05:12 PM (#1972905) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard If the mainboard will support 8x you're okay, otherwise you're stuffed... |
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19 Feb 07 - 05:28 PM (#1972917) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge A motherboard built in the year 2000? I don't think so! |
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19 Feb 07 - 05:52 PM (#1972948) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard Try Misco... |
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19 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM (#1972951) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard AGP 8x was introduced around August 2000... |
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19 Feb 07 - 08:09 PM (#1973111) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge I've been rummaging elsewhere and most 8x cards that I have looked at say they are AGP 2x/4x/8x compatible, which puzzles me since 4x is 1.5volts and 8x 0.8 volts... I found one mightily cool looking thing on ebay that uses teh next PCI slot along to run a huge fan..... |
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19 Feb 07 - 10:54 PM (#1973225) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: JohnInKansas Wikipedia's article on AGP includes a short section on Compatibility that may be helpful in sorting out the odds and probabilities while you're swapping boards aroung. Within, or immediately adjacent to the compatibility blurb there should be some pictures of the voltage slot/pins that will let you read off what voltages your sockets provide and what voltages your various cards are intended to use. A not at the beginning of the Wiki article indicates that whoever wrote it didn't provide citations for many of the "assertions of fact," but it appears to be an informed essay(?). John |
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06 Mar 07 - 03:38 AM (#1987828) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge Well, there may be progress in the next few days, as after a row with Paypal, two new old graphics cards may arrive today, and maybe we'll see what the problems were. However, although ME usually gives me few problems, on that very machine, the one the new card will be for, soon after I ordered the new cards, I suddenly got a 640x480 display (usually rectifiable by a quick poke at display setting) AND (and here comes the catch) NO MOUSE POINTER. Changing the mouse had no effect. Most likely, this is ME having eaten its mouse drivers, so I am up for an OS over-the-top re-install of ME and/or a format C and start again, (which will necessitate a fair bit of copying files and, to be safe, removal of the second hard drive) unless anyone knows exactly which files in 98SE are the mouse drivers, and I could then try copying those drivers across on a floppy. However, it does occur to me that there might be other explanations. First, it might be related to the graphics card - and worse, all that wiggling of the old graphics card might have broken a track on the motherboard leading to the PS2 port - although I would expect that to result in a visible but immovable mouse pointer. Such fin (when I get some spare time to play with it all). |
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06 Mar 07 - 04:17 AM (#1987839) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: JohnInKansas If you did a standard install of ME, I'd expect it to have dropped the .CAB files somewhere on the system drive. If they're there, even the rather rudimentary PnP in WinME shoud be able to find a mouse driver if you just go into Device Manager (or whatever ME called it), uninstall the mouse, and reboot. You might not get the best possible driver for a particular fancy mouse, but it should give you basic mousiness. If the .CABs aren't there, it should ask for a driver/system disk that you probably have that should have the generic ones on it. I'm going by my recollection from Win98SE days, which were a long time ago, but I think that's what we used to do ... . John |
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06 Mar 07 - 07:32 AM (#1987996) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: The Fooles Troupe Or you could use the 'Windows Mouse driver disc (floppy or CD)' that had generic windows mouse drivers - can't remember the name and version - and I don't think I could find mine in a hurry now... :-) |
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06 Mar 07 - 09:00 AM (#1988081) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge Cunning plan - but how, without a mouse pointer, do I point at the mouse, in device manager, to uninstall the mouse? I don't think I've got a disk called mouse drivers, nor indeed ever seen one. Time for a google. |
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06 Mar 07 - 10:09 AM (#1988149) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Stilly River Sage At some point, with all of this fussing and twitching boards and cards and switches and plugs, you'll add up the hours you've spent on a seven-year-old computer, the value of your time per hour, and eventually you'll contemplate the real pleasure of a new computer and you'll just say "fuck it all" and go get a new HP (or whatever). For about 1/3 of the price of the old system and way more space and power. We'll all congratulate you! Finding that tipping point is always interesting. SRS |
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06 Mar 07 - 10:21 AM (#1988159) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge Oh no, I like old things, which is just as well, 'cos mine is getting on a bit too. When I get that one working right, I'm going to get out the P233 + W95 and get that up again..... |
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06 Mar 07 - 10:55 AM (#1988189) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Stilly River Sage You can use them all for playing solitaire and reading email. |
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06 Mar 07 - 10:59 AM (#1988194) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bill D Wow- I have this 14 year old PC with Win 3.1 I'll sell you cheap! (Had it working the other day)Then, there's a TRS-80 I can lay my hands on....(It plays "Lunar Lander"!!) |
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06 Mar 07 - 02:53 PM (#1988492) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: JohnInKansas I've been looking for a woman with the same mad devotion to old things that don't work very well, but thus far haven't found more than one deserving of (or accepting of) my passionate responses to that devotion. Re the question of "how do I - without a mouse?," in principle it's not necessary to have a mouse as there are keyboard-only ways of navigating - they say everywhere - in Windows. KB 301583: List of the keyboard shortcuts that are available in Windows XP is a current guide for WinXP. I don't know if there are still similar ones for older versions of Windows, but most of them haven't changed much since Win3.11WG days. The default shortcuts should be in Help files for your version, but they can be "evasive" when you're looking for them. My recollection is that "keyboard" is a good search term in Help in most versions. By way of sympathizing, I recently (yesterday) discovered that a bunch of minor setup changes had resulted in a couple of "extraneous" USB hubs in Device Manager, so I proceeded according to my own advice to just uninstall all of them. The last uninstall reminded me that "OH SHIT - I'm using a USB mouse!." Fortunately at that point all I needed to do was reboot, and I don't recall exactly how I did it as there was a lot of muttering and #$@$@%@!# (cursing) going on that was not conducive to clear thinking. John |
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06 Mar 07 - 05:19 PM (#1988677) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard Hah! Somewhere I've got a 19 year old XT (Opus III) running MS-DOS 3.3 - it has a 30Mb (yes, MEGAbyte!) RLL hard drive, EGA graphics and 1Mb of memory... and no mouse or CD Rom! What a powerful beast it was in its day!! It was the first PC I ever meddled with... |
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06 Mar 07 - 05:58 PM (#1988715) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: JohnInKansas Well now, Bernard, my first personal computer was an AT, with 30MB drive. I did upgrade and add a 2d 30MB drive, and an "extended memory card" with 1MB of extra RAM - about all you could stuff in back then, and only a few programs could use any of it. I "bought in" because they were saying that "computers are taking over," and I figured I'd better learn to keep up. Ten years later, when I transferred out of my "modern progressive organization" that was "going to make everybody use computers" the BEST computer I could get on at the office was an XT that didn't have a hard drive. You had to be able to fit the OS boot, the program, and any results you produced all on one 5.25" floppy, unless you could get by with the "BASIC" that was in BIOS - and they didn't have a printer in the building so you had to carry the floppy elsewhere to print any results. (I usually just took it home and brought the printout back the next day, but technically that was illegal because "somebody might steal everything the company knows.") (It probably would all have fit on the floppy.) John |
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06 Mar 07 - 06:35 PM (#1988772) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Bernard Yup - a bit like the Tandy 1000 (5.25") and Apricot II (3.5" DD) also in my 'museum' - though I never actually used either of them, just acquired them somewhere en route! |
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06 Mar 07 - 06:44 PM (#1988780) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: The Fooles Troupe Can anybody fix my TRS80? I have a 'Mac Classic' too - it was working perfectly before the teenager dismanteled it... |
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10 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM (#1992979) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge Two graphics cards off ebay. The Geforce works perfectly and seems to recognise the drivers from the old dead Geforce (that was why I got it). The Rage is as yet untested as as it does not seem to share any of the Rage drivers I have on disc. The card is the Expert2000Pro, so I'm off to google the drivers soon. The mouse pointer was more fun. After about half an hour puching buttons at random I doscovered how to navigate off the keyboard and removed themouse. No joy. ME could not open vmouse.vxd. Off to the 98 machine. Discover vmouse isn't really called that but is VMM32.vxd. Put it on a floppy. Unable to find a way to navigate to address the floppy to update driver, so settle for using msmouse.vxd instead, and it seems to be fine. Next step, run a long CAT5 cable upstairs and put a machine (possibly this one) upstairs. I've never used a CAT5 crimper before. SInce that machine will be accessible to any guest int he house, I'm going to have to put passwords on allthe files I want to share between the office machines to protect them from the guest machine, snarl. Time to start devising new memorable but unguessable identities and passwords, ho hum. |
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11 Mar 07 - 03:35 AM (#1993220) Subject: RE: Tech: Graphics card issues From: Richard Bridge Rats, ME has eaten another bit of itself. TIme to retrieve what I want off the C drive and format C. |