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19 Feb 07 - 07:23 AM (#1972334) Subject: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Riginslinger What's the relationship between Religion and Capitalism? I saw a couple of guys on "Book TV" yesterday arguing that you couldn't have one without the other. |
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19 Feb 07 - 07:49 AM (#1972350) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: GUEST,Autodidact Don't they teach hsitory any more? Religion was around from several thousand BC. Capitalism has been around for about the last 600-800 years at most and was only recognised as existing about 250 years ago, If they were referring specifically to Christianity, don't forget that the basis of capitalism, lending money at interest, was considered the sin of usury until the late middle ages- which is why moneylending became associated with Jews. |
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19 Feb 07 - 08:33 AM (#1972392) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: McGrath of Harlow And for Muslims lending money at interest is still forbidden. |
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19 Feb 07 - 08:43 AM (#1972400) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Alec The injunction against usury is Biblical rather than ecclesiastical so it is still forbidden in Christianity & Judaism. (In theory though not in most practice.) |
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19 Feb 07 - 12:18 PM (#1972585) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Riginslinger If they talk about "money changers" in the Bible, and they outlaw lending at interest--at least ethically speaking--then it would seem that capitalism would have to be older than 600 to 800 years. As a point of curiousity, I wonder when they came up with the concept of defering risk (i.e. insurance)? |
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19 Feb 07 - 12:23 PM (#1972590) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Alec Classical Greeks had Insurance (and also Insurance fraud) |
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19 Feb 07 - 12:29 PM (#1972600) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: John Hardly I think you'd have to do a much better job of defining "capitalism" before you could have a reasonable discussion of the issue. |
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19 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM (#1972604) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: heric In my experience, borrowing and lending with interest, even usurious interest, is the fundamental point where loud Christians and loud Muslims eagerly compromise doctrine. |
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19 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM (#1972611) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Janie Read Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. Janie |
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19 Feb 07 - 02:32 PM (#1972735) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: McGrath of Harlow Buying and selling has been around for a long time, and shows no sign of dying out. Capitalism is a bit more complicated than that and hasn't been around for all that long - a handful of centuries at most. And very likely it will be replaced by some other system, possibly before all that long. |
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19 Feb 07 - 02:41 PM (#1972745) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Riginslinger It would be interesting to speculate what capitalism could be replaced with. But the speaker on the program was an ex-Reagan official, so it would make sense that he thought supply-side, Milton Freidman, government-hands-off capitalism was the best thing to come along since the beginning of mankind. His point, as I took it was, this form of capitalism wouldn't work without religion. |
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19 Feb 07 - 02:48 PM (#1972753) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Alec "Give up all you have and follow me." "It is easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle,than it is for a rich man to enter the gates of Heaven." Doesn't really sound like a Reaganite,does he? |
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19 Feb 07 - 06:19 PM (#1972978) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Nickhere Capialism comes literally from the reinvesting of extra capital. Though a form of it was around in the middle ages, it wasn't until the reformation that it really took off in the form we know today. As Janie mentioned, Weber's Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism looked at why the northern European protestant countries developed such capitalistic industrailised societies so much faster and more completely than their southern catholic neighbours. To sum up his conclusions: Early protestants believed 'industriousness was next to Godliness' - in other words, hard work was pleasing to God, idleness was an invitation to the devil. So these pious souls wre busy toiling away like the ant in the ant and the catholic grasshopper story. Their asectic forms of protestantism (think Calvinism, Cromwell, etc) forbade indulgence in lives vices (drinking, gambling, whoring etc., - so did Catholicism, of course, but thats' another story). Thus their hard work and industry (in the sense of more hard work) brought them surplus income, and their beliefs forbade them from indulging themselves, so, after charity work, there was little else to do with the money but plough it back into more work and industry. This in turn brought even more surplus cash (i.e - what wasn't needed for survival). Previously, people had generally produced what was needed to live, now regular surpluses were being produced and re-invested. Capitalism had been born. Capitalism is partly the exponential growth of making money for its own sake. That's why this years' profits MUST be a little higher than last years' though nobody actually needs that kind of money. The early prods came to see material success as a sign of God's favour - afterall, if you were rich, it was because you were industrious and led a sober life. This in turn led them to view the catholics' more relaxed lives with suspicion - the beginnings of the (protestant) work ethic - work and material success as a virtue in itself. Not putting in enough time in the office to be considered a 'viable' member of the human race? Thank those early protestants. As time passed, the religious dimension was sloughed off - especially after the humanistic revolution of the Enlightement which placed 'man' at the centre of his universe rather than God. But the notions of capitalism and success as being virtues in themselves lived on and flourished, and so did money. This has helped lead to the Western world's notion that any kind of venture that doesn't lead to productivity (e.g - those Indians just sitting round doing nothing with all that real estate) is somehow a sign of backward primitiveness if not actually a sin.... Here's my favourite quote though (don't know who said it though): "War is capitalism with the gloves off" |
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19 Feb 07 - 06:27 PM (#1972993) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: dianavan heric, you are right. Religion really doesn't effect those who are handling the economy. They will eagerly compromise doctrine if it means profit. Which is why religion is only necessary when it comes to controlling the masses. |
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19 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM (#1973003) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Little Hawk Ha! Ha! Ha! LOL!!!!!!! (I'm laughing at the premise that you can't have capitalism without religion....) Religion is merely being cleverly used (in the USA) by certain people who call themselves capitalists. They're using it as a means of manipulating naive people and getting votes at election time. Organized religion has also been used by monarchists, some socialists, fascists, and numerous other "ists"...but they can all manage to do what they do without it...or by merely paying lip service to it. |
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19 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM (#1973012) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Riginslinger The US must have gone off the track someplace. Its savings rate is in the cellar, and the buget and trade deficits are at an all time high. Great quote, by the way -- Nickhere |
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19 Feb 07 - 06:49 PM (#1973019) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: McGrath of Harlow Rather akin to Clausewitz's "War is merely the continuation of policy by other means" - translated to the realm of economics that becomes "War is merely the continuation of business by other means". |
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19 Feb 07 - 07:09 PM (#1973030) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Riginslinger In the age of globalization, maybe "business" is more appropriate than "foreign policy." |
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19 Feb 07 - 07:13 PM (#1973036) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Don Firth Moneychangers in the temple was the one thing that got Jesus pissed off enough to resort to physical violence. Don Firth |
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19 Feb 07 - 10:30 PM (#1973211) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Mrrzy The original priests were the original capitalists, way back when... |
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20 Feb 07 - 03:02 AM (#1973336) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: The Fooles Troupe Which function was handed down to the Monasteries... Who invented the 'International Bonking System' |
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20 Feb 07 - 05:29 AM (#1973419) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: GUEST,Shimrod We now know that Capitalism produces millions of tons of surplus carbon dioxide which heats up the biosphere and will probably have disastrous consequences in the near future. A recent programme on UK TV suggested that Organised Religion has very little to say about this; is this because their wealth is tied up in stocks and shares? |
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20 Feb 07 - 05:45 AM (#1973427) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Alec "While The Pope owns 51% of General Motors the Stock Exchange is the only thing He's qualified to quote us" George Harrison "Awaiting On You All" 1970. George neglected to give a source for this assertion but you can see what he's getting at. |
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20 Feb 07 - 06:31 AM (#1973457) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Janie Max Weber explored the relationship between religion and Capitalism rather thoroughly, and even after all these years, his thesis has never been seriously challenged. McGrath, et. al. are right that Capitalism has only been around for a few centuries. Max Weber argues very cogently that the rise of protestantism, especially Calvanism, set the stage for the development of capitalism. The entire essay is available on-line. The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism |
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20 Feb 07 - 02:40 PM (#1973971) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: dianavan Celibacy was introduced by the Catholic church as a cost-cutting measure. It was too expensive to maintain a parish priest, his wife and family. So you can say that the doctrine of the church was definitely influenced by the economy. I don't think that Catholicism is simply Capitalist. The Vatican seems to support the flavour of the day but leans towards Facism. Protestant churches definitely support Captitalism and vice-versa. In fact, if you look at how your Sunday offering is invested, it might surprise you. |
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20 Feb 07 - 04:17 PM (#1974101) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Joe Offer Of course, you could also argue that religion is far more compatible with socialism, and that the capitalistic leanings of some religious people are just an aberration. The Acts of the Apostles describes how people held resources and property in common, hardly a capitalist practice. In The Great Transformation, Karen Armstrong claims that most great religious were founded on the Golden Rule, the concept that we should do to others what we want done to ourselves. Selfishness and self-interest are basic capitalistic principles that are contrary to the teachings of most religions - but selfisness runs rampant among religious people, possibly because self-righteousness is such a common flaw among those who claim to be religious. -Joe Offer, Catholic Social Democrat- |
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20 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM (#1974192) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: McGrath of Harlow Selfishness and self-interest are pretty widespread characteristicsn of human behaviour - but traditionally they have been regarded as faults, vices even, to be avoided, and if that fails, to be repented. What is corrupting about Caopitalism, when it gets tied up with Religion, is when people start making those kind of things over into virtues in which one should take pride. |
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20 Feb 07 - 07:24 PM (#1974323) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Don Firth I was not especially surprised to learn that the money contributed to the church I attend (when I attend church) goes to provide meals for the indigent and homeless in the area, and to support LATCH, a Lutheran organization that both finds and constructs low-rent housing, Lutheran Social Services (the name speaks for itself), and the Lutheran Peace Fellowship, which has it's national office at the church. The pastor could make a whole lot bigger salary at some other church, but she's dedicated. The fact that I do attend and support a local church does not necessarily indicate that I am a dedicated Christian (I regard myself as a philosopher rather than a theologian). It does, however, provide a way for me to multiply my own contributions to help the community, and it allows me to see the results of my contributions directly. There are other churches in this area that are similarly involved in the community. And there are some that are not. Don Firth |
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20 Feb 07 - 07:35 PM (#1974349) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: The Fooles Troupe Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, is it not? |
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20 Feb 07 - 09:06 PM (#1974442) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Joe Offer Ah, the Seven Deadly Virtues:
...and I didn't have to look them up. |
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20 Feb 07 - 09:37 PM (#1974456) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Don Firth Poet Carl Sandburg added an Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten, which, when you think about it, renders the previous Ten redundant. "Thou shalt not commit nincompoopery." Don Firth |
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20 Feb 07 - 09:40 PM (#1974458) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: bobad "Thou shalt not commit nincompoopery." Good god, I'm going to hell. |
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20 Feb 07 - 09:42 PM (#1974460) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Peace No link between the two at all. Nope. None! |
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20 Feb 07 - 09:50 PM (#1974463) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Peace I googled 'nincompoopery' and the first pic on the images page was this. |
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21 Feb 07 - 01:11 AM (#1974537) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Little Hawk Picture #4 is my favorite. |
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21 Feb 07 - 06:08 PM (#1975342) Subject: RE: BS: Religion and Capitalism From: Riginslinger Maybe thats what you get -- 4 parts religion, 6 parts capitalsim -- and you end up with nincompoopery. |
