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22 Feb 07 - 11:59 AM (#1976090) Subject: Honoring Tradition From: Jerry Rasmussen All musicians build on tradition. Some try to honor it by imitation. Imitation is the sincerest indication of a lack of personal creativity. For others, their roots show (which is good, in folk music.) Some honor tradition by acknowledging it as an important influence in the music that they create. But, nothing is created out of whole cloth. My question is, How do you honor tradition? For myself, tradition is the well I draw inspiration from. But, I see tradition as fluid. Traditional music is an ever-evolving process of creating something "new" out of something "old." My own approach to honoring tradition has been to assimilate it, out of love for the music, so that it becomes a part of who I am and the music I create. When I first heard the Anthology Of American Folk Music, I could hardly contain my excitement. Through time, I learned half of the songs on the collection. I've met people who try to reproduce the exact performance of the songs, down to the final note and vocal inflection, even if the culture that produced the tradition is not their own. I never liked that. Maybe it's all because of Lonnie Donegan. Lonnie captured the energy and essence of the songs, with very little attempt to recreate someone else's music. In learning songs from a tradition, whether it's folk, blues or gospel, I've never sat down and tried to copy the original recordings. I figured that interpetation had already been done and no matter how accurate an imitation I could do, it would still be just that: an imitation. These questions are surfacing right now because I am fusing members of an a capella doo wop group with members of my gospel group that does mostly old black gospel quartet music. In doo wop, the original is the thing. Nobody wants to hear Blue Moon without that classic bass introduction. In doo wop, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. In my quartet, I don't want anyone to become wedded to a previous performance of a song. Someone's already "been there, done that." I approach tradition, whatever form of music it is, in the same way. So, how do you approach tradition? How much is imitation, how much is influence, and how much is personal interpretation? Inquiring minds want to know. Jerry |
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22 Feb 07 - 01:58 PM (#1976192) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: GUEST,Russ I am a transmitter, not a creator. I think of myself as a member of a living musical tradition. I haven't consciously tried to assimlate anything. I just try to do my tradition justice. That said, I honor tradition by continuing it and acknowledging it. I never slavishly imitate my sources but I always acknowledge them. Sometime apologetically as in "this tune comes from Maggie Hammons Parker although I doubt she'd recognize it." Such an introduction also comes from my tradition. I always ask people where they got their material. When somebody learns a tune from me I tell them to be sure to give me and my source as their source. It's probably the only immortality we'll get. Russ (permanent occasionally traditional GUEST) |
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22 Feb 07 - 02:22 PM (#1976215) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: wysiwyg I honor the tradition that is my biggest source of learning and my biggest area of music interest-- spirituals-- by allowing myself to be open to the thoughts, feelings, and spirituality that created them, and by singing them with the same directness of expression with which they started. That means, in large part, that while singing them as a free, privileged person, who will never suffer what their originators suffered in precisely the same way, I allow myself to express whatever suffering or bondage I have experienced. Not that I think I can "equal" or "mirror" anyone else's, but that I acknowledge that in even my privilege, I too know what it is to hurt, to yearn for a better world, and to seek solace when working for that better world doesn't feel real good. That also means, in particular, that I neither "sanitize" nor "black up" the text, but I don't hold back from singing them, either, in a way that some folks might THINK errs in either of those directions if they don't know me well enough to know how I communicate. And finally, it also means, especially this last year, that I trust my sense of what those songs are, what they are about, and how messy the genre itself is and, thank goodness, always will be. I think overall, Jerry, since you offered this opening to reflect a bit, that it comes from an inner attitude of welcome, gratitude, and loosely-held (open-handed) stewardship. ~Susan |
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22 Feb 07 - 02:31 PM (#1976223) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Big Al Whittle either the tradition is a creative opportunity for the living or its nothing worth having. |
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22 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM (#1976235) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jerry Rasmussen You got that right, Weelittle.. Jerry |
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22 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM (#1976238) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jerry Rasmussen And good, well-thought out and expressed thoughts, Russ and Susan.. Jerry |
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23 Feb 07 - 03:23 AM (#1976754) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Alec Either the tradition is a creative opportunity for the living,or it's nothing worth having. Yes I know that's a word for word verbatim repeat of what weelittledrummer said, but I could not possibly hope to improve on that statement and have therefore decided to adopt it. |
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23 Feb 07 - 03:31 AM (#1976757) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jim Lad To me, tradition is to take the songs my father sung, just as he did from his father before him and so on..... and sing them as my father did. ..............."Imitation" The evolution will take care of itself, just as evolution did before. |
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23 Feb 07 - 03:32 AM (#1976759) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jim Lad One of my finer pieces, I think! |
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23 Feb 07 - 03:34 AM (#1976761) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Alec I think so too Jim. |
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23 Feb 07 - 03:54 AM (#1976772) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Big Al Whittle Supposing your Dad didn't sing. Suppose he used to whistle..... tuneslessly, like my Dad. You'd be in the shit, then. |
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23 Feb 07 - 04:46 AM (#1976798) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Scrump Interesting thread. I guess many of us haven't really thought about how we honour tradition (please excuse the UK spelling!) I will base what I do on what I hear from a live or recorded performance, or maybe on a printed source of music/songs. But I won't slavishly try to imitate someone else's performance, even if I might admire it and think their version is insurpassable. I might change it to suit myself, perhaps sing in a different key because my vocal range doesn't match the original performer, and I might even arrange it (if accompanied) differently, again to suit myself (maybe I'm not capable of playing it the same way as the originator). But of course with tunes I will stick to the original tune and not attempt to change it, I'm just talking about the arrangement. I might unconsciously change a tune or even words, without realising I'm doing it. Not sure if I'm missing the point here - a lot of this could apply equally to comtemporary material as well as 'traditional'. (Have I missed the point? Please say if you think I have). Apologies for rambling on! |
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23 Feb 07 - 04:51 AM (#1976802) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: The Sandman What, no Jim Carroll. |
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23 Feb 07 - 05:19 AM (#1976819) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: GUEST,Shimrod On the UK Folk Scene there has always been too much slavish imitation - and what is worse, slavish imitation of Revival singers, not Traditional singers (although I did once hear someone do a Harry Cox impersonation in front of the great man himself!). The other problem with the UK Folk Scene is a tendency to want to turn Folk Music into Rock Music - what we get, of course, is more Rock Music - and a minor form of Rock Music, at that, which soon goes out of fashion. It seems to me that the best way to honour Tradional Music is to view it (as Cecil Sharp did) as an evolutionary form which is not particularly suited to revolution. |
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23 Feb 07 - 08:08 AM (#1976904) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jerry Rasmussen Evolution, not revolution. Now there's a great one-line that says it all! And no scrump, you didn't miss the point. You approach traditional music in much the same way as more contemporary music in that you find your own voice to sing it. I think the difference in approach is the respect most of us on here feel for the singers and the songs that went before us. Several years ago, some enterprising person got all the people together who ran folk concert series to encourage them to support each other's programs. I thought that it was a good idea. For those of us who ran coffee houses, that was nothing new. We already attended each other's series regularly and would annonce each other's concerts. There was someone who was running a upscale series in the Center For The Arts, booking young singer-songwriters exclusively. I booked an occasional singer-songwriter who sang with some sense of the tradition, but I'd never even heard of any of the people he booked. It was a real upscale series in a fancy setting. In friendly conversation with him I told him I thought it was great, what he was doing, and that our two series complimented each other nicely. He asked me what I did (I doubt he even noticed) and I told him that I booked mostly traditional music and he said "I HATE traditional folk music!" I could have said, you wouldn't have your series without their being traditional music, but that wouldn't have been true. I'm sure that many of the people he booked knew as little about traditional folk music as he did. Jerry |
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23 Feb 07 - 10:30 AM (#1977004) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: sian, west wales Scrump mentioned that his comments "could apply equally to comtemporary material" and I tend to feel that a lot of our declarations about trad or folk music fall in this category. I'm involved in some deliberations with our Arts Council - trying to ensure a place for folk or trad music in the overall music strategy. One thing that's come up is the music's place in the community, and the singer's relationship (or tradition bearer's relationship) to their community. Not audience; community. Personally I think that the more removed the 'performer' is from the community, the more a song becomes a performance show piece, and the singer a 'celebrity', the farther they move from 'tradition', and the less the tradition is honoured. To put it in economic terms, the more links in the chain between the provider and the consumer, the farther you get from tradition. That is, if I sing a song and teach it to you at my kitchen table (see another Rassmussen though-provoking thread) then that's pretty close to 'tradition'. If you have to buy a ticket from a theatre which had to go to an agent to make a deal with a performer who makes deals with roadies ... etc ... before the song can be heard, then a lot of money is changing hands, and the 'product' is moving very far from the Tradition. I'm not a performer, but I try to honour tradition by learning not only the song but the context in which it was written, the community in which it was preserved, the language and idioms used, etc. Then when I sing it to someone else, I make sure that I share at least some of that with them. Was it here, in the 'Cat, that someone once wrote, "A folksinger is someone who takes 5 minutes to introduce a 2 minute song" ? I think that backs up what I'm saying. Is there another music which needs that amount of background to be valid? This is getting good ... sian (hey Jerry: did you get that stuff I sent?) |
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23 Feb 07 - 10:42 AM (#1977014) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Scrump "A folksinger is someone who takes 5 minutes to introduce a 2 minute song" Interesting quote, sian. I always take the trouble to explain the historical background to a song, (and say who wrote it if the author is known). Apart from hopefully making the song more interesting to the audience (I know I find it does, when I'm in the audience listening to someone else), it gives me something to do between songs while I work out what key it's in, adjust the capo, or change instruments, etc. I like to know myself what a song is about, and what its historical context is, and I believe most audiences also get more out of it if they are told. (Mind you, you can come unstuck. I once spent 5 minutes explaining a new song - new to me , that is - and forgot the words half way through the first verse. I had to abandon it and do another song instead. I felt a bit of a pillock at the time, but it was a good learning experience :-| ) |
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23 Feb 07 - 10:48 AM (#1977018) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: RTim Generally I select material to sing that is from a traditional base, and if there is some connection with me on a personal level, be it where I come from, or who I have known, all the better. However, what really motivates me to learn a song is the song itself. This could be the tune or the story or who the song came from - and really it matters not what the origin is. I sing some songs that were collected hundreds of years ago, and some songs only written recently - but I approach their performance the same way. Yes I am an unaccompanied singer 99.9% of the time, so I would approach it from that angle, but I try and stay as true to the original as possible. This of course is not to say I don't change words, or tunes to make it my own - and I do meld together different versions of the same song to achieve something that best represents the song for me and my needs. I believe that is what many old singers did, so I respect that aspect of traditional folk music. Tim Radford (www.timradford.com) |
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23 Feb 07 - 10:53 AM (#1977022) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: treewind The 5 minutes intro per 2 minute song thing is mainly for audiences who aren't really part of the tradition and need to have a little more explanation. Mary and I played at a retirement community the other day, the first time we've played and sung to audience of people who definitely weren't folkies, and we deliberately did more explaining, including talking about some of our instruments because it's likely many of them had never seen a concertina or a melodeon before. But back to the evolution vs revolution thing - a great summary of what we try to do, which is perform traditional music in arrangements that are as accessible as possible without turning them into something they aren't. We certainly don't make them into rock music, nor into pop music, and despite having more a of classical music upbringing we don't turn them into folk song arrangements like Cecil Sharp's, or those of Vaughan Williams or Britten either. The secret is to keep it simple and do it as well as possible. Traditional songs are robust creatures though. Martin Carthy said the only bad thing you can do with a song is not sing it! Anahata |
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23 Feb 07 - 11:33 AM (#1977052) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jerry Rasmussen Interesting.... almost all of the posts so far are from UK'ers. Does that say something? Jerry |
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23 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM (#1977061) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: GUEST,Shimrod Anahata and Mary Humphreys are great and I know that they have an enormous respect for the tradition. If you can't hear them live try their CD 'Sharp Practice: Rarities and Renovations from the English Tradition' Wild Goose, WGS312CD, 2003. This is not their only CD but is my personal favourite. |
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23 Feb 07 - 11:49 AM (#1977064) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: The Sandman treewind ,he actually said the only way you can damage a song is by not singing it. many songs are damaged by oversinging[the wild rover]and require a break for a while because they become hackneyed,or some become damaged by people shouting [up your kilt] in the middle of them,the wild rover again,but they may not be damaged permanently. and those people who approach the wild rover, for the first time will appreciate what a good song it is,but most of us seasoned performers never want to sing it again,because people have abused it,[the song to our ears is damaged]so Carthy is only partly right. The best way to honour tradition is to show respect for your material,and try and perform it as well as you can. good performance should be the ultimate aim of any singer or musician whether he is singing traditional /contemporary /material,and should come above anything else. |
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23 Feb 07 - 12:33 PM (#1977107) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: sian, west wales I don't disagree with you, Anahata, in terms of some folk performances but I tend to sing mostly in gatherings of people who are deeply into my particular tradition ... and we probably do as much talking as we do singing. Everyone seems to have a different piece of the puzzle and I come away from every session richer for it. Maybe that IS the tradition for me, more than the actual music. There's an idiom in Welsh (Mary may know it): cwlwm adnabod. The knot of knowing. 'Knowing' in the sense of knowing people. It refers to ... well, I guess Jerry might relate to it as "the tie that binds"? The process of belonging within your society because of the things that you hold in common, and hold in trust for future generations. In that sense, the individual songs are important but a specific rendition would not be sacrosanct. What would be sacrosanct is the commitment to passing them and their context on, and the commitment to your community in general. Hmmm ... I think I'm ploughing a bit too deep now. sian |
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23 Feb 07 - 01:28 PM (#1977152) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Stewart I think honoring the tradition means knowing as much about the song as possible. When was it written and by whom, if known. What is it about and what was the original historical context. What do the words mean. What tune or tunes has it been sung to. Who has sung it in the past and what interpretations have they given to it. Knowing this, you can then give it your own interpretation. You might even change the words or the tune or style - you don't need to copy exactly the way you've heard someone else sing or play it. But you should honor the original meaning and history of the song. Too often I've heard newer singers take a song and completely change it so that the playing of the tune (tempo, style, etc.) has no relation to the words that are sung or the message that the song is trying to convey - too fast, or too slow, or a strange mixture of styles. Often times the words are not even understood - as if the words are not important. Sometimes it takes a long time of singing the song until you finally realize what it is about, what the words really mean, or how the tune fits with the words. It may be a slow evolution or a sudden realization. But knowing as much about the song as possible helps. The you should always give credit and attribution to those who have contributed to the the song and its history. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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23 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM (#1977165) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jerry Rasmussen I think that there is an intersting distinction between performing a song for an audience of people who are knowledgeable and interested in the tradition, and people who just want to hear the song, Dammit! I've heard people over here give an extensive background to a song, boring the Hell out of everyone, because they're not being sensitive to the audience. If you're playing at a gathering where people are just coming to have a good time, you can kill it in a hurry giving an extensive background to the song. A really good traditional song can reach across time and have a contemporary relevance. An example: "I woke up one morning in the spring of '65 I thought myself quite lucky to be found alive I geared up my mules, my business to pursue Instead of hauling four loads, I only hauled two I got so drunk at Harper's I couldn't stand no more The men all telling jokes, I laughed 'till I was sore The fiddler being willing, his arm a-being strong He played the Crippled Kingfisher, about four hours long Come all you newsy women, who scatter news about Don't tell no tales upon us, we're bad enough without Don't tell no tales upon us, or kick up any fuss You've been guilty of the same thing, perhaps a whole lot worse" Those are three verses of a much longer song about a bunch of men getting together, having a good time and getting drunk. You could pull our your guitar and play that in any bar in this country with NO introduction and everyone would relate to it.. and get a big kick out of out. A long introduction of the origin of the song, where Harper's was, who recorded it, and who you learned it from would if anything, detract from the enjoyment of the song in some quarters. Sometimes, honoring the tradition is just trusting the song to speak for itself. Jerry |
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23 Feb 07 - 01:52 PM (#1977170) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Jim Lad And yet, some of my fondest memories are of watching a folk singer weave a spell over the audience with an interesting introduction to a simple song. |
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23 Feb 07 - 02:13 PM (#1977189) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: GUEST,Shimrod Stewart, I think you've got it absolutely right! Those words should be written in big letters and pinned to the wall of every venue where folk songs are sung. |
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23 Feb 07 - 02:19 PM (#1977192) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: GUEST I continue to play & sing & teach & listen to the Music I love & respect, which is Traditional Music as well as composed Music. Little of this was composed in the past 50-60 years, simply because that happens to be my taste in Music. When I was a child, I loved learning & singing Traditional songs with my Grannys & Grandads-quite a variety from 2 sets of grandparents who were very different. A common fun family activity when I was a kid was gathering around the piano & singing, whether just my family at home, or at a large family gathering. I sing lots of Traditional songs to/with my 2 year old great niece & we both enjoy this. I also sing composed songs with her. She loves singing & acting "Way Down Yonder in the Paw Paw Patch" just as much as singing the latest Sesame Street songs which we sing every morning as we watch Sesame Street. |
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23 Feb 07 - 02:56 PM (#1977236) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: Scoville One can give an intro without giving a lecture. I try to do a mix--songs that require no explanation and maybe a few (a few, mind you) that need a quick introduction for context, but it depends on the audience. Casual audiences don't care; other musicians very often will find it interesting. When we play at living history events we give intros to nearly everything because that's the point of a living history event: An attempt to educate the public. Generally, though, I know a lot more about what I'm playing than I tell the audience, unless someone asks for more information. * * * * * How do I honor tradition? Well, for one thing, I didn't convert to Nirvana and Nine Inch Nails when I was in high school. I'm actually a little perplexed by the question. It's not that I haven't thought about it, but I'm not sure that "honoring the tradition" is separable from doing what most of us do anyway in learning/living the music and finding the balance between older traditions and keeping it alive. If you change it too much, it becomes something else (which can be a good thing or we'd have many fewer forms of music, but it's still different). If you keep a death grip on tradition, it gets stale and you drive away people who would otherwise participate in its evolution. When I play the fiddle, it's a little bit Bill Hicks, a little bit Dwight Lamb, a little bit Nate Kemperman, and a little bit me. I learned a lot listening to them and I want to play like them, but not just like them. Imitation is what recordings are for. |
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24 Feb 07 - 02:40 PM (#1978181) Subject: RE: Honoring Tradition From: GUEST,Art Thieme "Here is a song from the last depression." That is a short one-liner intro I sometimes used. If needed, I might elaborate a bit more. But for some audiences who resented long introductions, it might be enough. It could instantly update an old song so the "now people" might see that an older traditional song can be a document of how other people dealt with times they had missed seeing/noticing were in several ways akin to to current hard times. Often humor, or tall tales used in other times to belittle and make impotent (and get past) the anxiety caused by a given dilemma, can make the point quite well that these songs are actual documents passed down --- and are the words of those that lived through those belly-of-the-whale experiences. Art Thieme |