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26 Feb 07 - 04:57 AM (#1979631) Subject: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Peter Kasin This thread is inspired by the worst boxers thread, as that one has shown that there are more than a few Mudcat boxing fans. Speculating on who would have beaten who is the stuff of boxing fans, and, though we'll never really know for sure, it still makes for interesting discussion. So, what's your heavyweight ranking? Here's mine, for whatever it's worth. 1. Muhammad Ali 2. Joe Louis 3. Jack Johnson 4. Jack Dempsey 5. Rocky Marciano 6. Sonny Liston 7. Sam Langford 8. Jim Jeffries 9. George Foreman 10. Mike Tyson 11. Larry Holmes 12. Joe Frazier |
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26 Feb 07 - 07:11 AM (#1979695) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: patriot1314 Wouldn't argue with the selection, maybe I would shuffle the order round a bit. I agree with the number one, but a man who retired undefeated is only 5th. not only undefeated, but in the "golden age" of boxing too |
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26 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM (#1979720) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: alanabit We never saw Jack Johnson, but by all accounts he was pretty awesome. I think I shall have to go and look up his record. It is unlikely that enough information will emerge to compare him with later boxers, but we can be sure that he was one of the best ever. Larry Holmes certainly deserves to be on that list. I am a little baffled as to why Mike Tyson deserves to be on it, whereas Lennox Lewis, who thrashed him, does not. For sheer guts and mental strength, Evander Holyfield must have a good case too. |
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26 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM (#1979733) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,meself There are - or were - some clips of Jack Johnson fights on Youtube. Even on those old grainy newsreels you can see that he was a remarkable slugger. |
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26 Feb 07 - 08:28 AM (#1979754) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: mandotim Because of politics, he never turned pro; but I wonder where Teofilio Stevenson would feature on that list if he had? This great Cuban amateur was the most devastating puncher I ever saw. Tim |
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26 Feb 07 - 09:04 AM (#1979777) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman I would add my brother to your list, but he never went "pro." He just pounded the bejeezus out of me whenever he could find me! Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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26 Feb 07 - 09:12 AM (#1979787) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rapparee Hey, my brother did too! Now that he's old and weak I'd get my own licks in, but I'm old and weak now too. |
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26 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM (#1979796) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman Let's trade brothers ... at least for a fun weekend! |
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26 Feb 07 - 09:29 AM (#1979801) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall It depends on what you think is important Longevity, power, skill how mant good opponents, etc. For length of career, 1. Joe Louis almost 12 years 2. John L. Sullivan 10 years with bare fists. 2. Larry Holmes 7 years 3 Archie Moore more knockouts than any boxer in history. Skill: 1.M. Ali 2.Floyd Patterson 3Larry Holmes. best jab ever 4.Jimmy Young master boxer, taught Ali a thing or two. 5. Ezzard Charles 6. Lennox Lewis 7. Evander Holyfield I don't know where to put Jack Johnson, but he surely does belong on this list. |
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26 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM (#1979813) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman I well remember my Father and I listening to a radio broadcast of an Ezzard Charles fight. I can't remember his opponent, but I think he won the championship that night. Does anyone remember who he fought? Bob |
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26 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM (#1979818) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall Joe Louis, past his prime. |
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26 Feb 07 - 10:06 AM (#1979831) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman I thought so ... but I wasn't sure. That probably was about 49 or 50? Bob |
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26 Feb 07 - 10:25 AM (#1979841) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Scoville Has anyone else seen the PBS program on Jack Johnson? It's amazing. Fantastic old film footage. KUHT, our local PBS, is showing the second half tonight. I don't know anything about boxing, but I know I would not have wanted to be in the ring with that dude. Yikes. |
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26 Feb 07 - 12:29 PM (#1979929) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rapparee Tom Spring Bill Richmond Tom Molyneaux Yankee Sullivan Tom Hyer John L. Sullivan Ben Caunt Tom Cribb Dustin Karol Lenny McLean Tom Sayers Roy Shaw William 'Bendigo' Thompson Kimbo Slice Put 'em in any order you want. |
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26 Feb 07 - 12:34 PM (#1979935) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Schantieman Ali No-one else close. S |
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26 Feb 07 - 01:04 PM (#1979960) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Little Hawk I've always been a big fan of Marciano. For greatest of all time I would pick either him...or Ali in his prime. But it's not a very well informed opinion, because my knowledge of boxing is quite limited. |
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26 Feb 07 - 01:06 PM (#1979961) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rabbi-Sol Considering ALL the weight division, not only heavyweight. Can we have a list of all the 10 best fighters pound for pound ? I am sure that Sugar Ray Robinson and Roberto Duran would rank pretty high. SOL ZELLER |
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26 Feb 07 - 01:31 PM (#1979992) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: alanabit For sheer skill, I think Sugar Ray Leonard would be on most people's list. He wasn't a bad puncher either. He belongs on another list with Sol's best "pound for pund" fighters though. Lennox Lewis's foolishnes, in failing to train properly for two of his bouts, meant that he lost his unbeaten record. However, when he finally retired, he had beaten every man, who had ever entered the ring with him. Both of his rematches were mismatches. He also improved as a finisher in the course of his career. I would have to look at footage of the fights to decide whether he or Larry Holmes had the better jab. It would take some figuring out even then. I would not fancy a clout round the ear from either of them. |
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26 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM (#1980035) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman In his day, Harry Kid Matthews was a real power. I forget his weight division, perhaps middle weight or light heavy. Bob |
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26 Feb 07 - 02:42 PM (#1980043) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rabbi-Sol I have a reel to reel tape recording that I made off the radio of the second Paterson-Johansen fight, in which Paterson regained his title. There were 6 or seven knockdowns in the space of 2 rounds. It was the first time ever that an ex heavyweight champ ever regained his title. I have been looking to sell this tape to a collector but have not yet found any takers. SOL |
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26 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM (#1980053) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: catspaw49 Try spelling his name right Sol....LOL....He ain't a dump in Jersey, his name is Patterson. Spaw |
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26 Feb 07 - 02:53 PM (#1980057) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall Jack Johnson was called the best defensive fighter of all time. other weight divisions, Ray Robinson, often called the best pound for pound ever. Roberto Duran Willy Pep Billy Conn Ray Leonard Carmen Basillio |
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26 Feb 07 - 03:13 PM (#1980091) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Blindlemonsteve i know this is a really silly one, but for me a true champion was Frank Bruno, when he won his title from Oliver McCall, he said that he never said he was the fastest, never said he was the best, but he believed in himself that one day he would win a title, he just kept going until he did, he had the heart of a champion if not the ability, and i think that is what is most important. And Lennox Lewis was a very lucky bunny not to get knocked out in the 7th by our Frank, and he seriously gave Tyson a first round kicking in theyre first match. |
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26 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM (#1980094) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rabbi-Sol What about Thomas Hearns who fought in every division from welterweight to light-heavyweight ? SOL |
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26 Feb 07 - 03:21 PM (#1980104) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Jim Lad Casius Clay! |
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26 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM (#1980106) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,meself Ernest Hemingway. At least, he seemed to think he was right up there with the best of them. Of course, Morley Callaghan cleaned his clock pretty good. (And Joe Louis, stopping his fist an inch from Papa's nose, advised him, "Stick to writing"). |
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26 Feb 07 - 04:05 PM (#1980140) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Peter Kasin Great list of 19th century champs, Rapaire, but how about Daniel Mendoza? He put some science into boxing. Today he would be considered a middleweight, but there were no weight class distincrions when he fought., so he did fight against those that would today be heavyweights. Tyson is on my list because in his prime, 1986-89, he was awesome. The manner in which he completely dominated his opponents puts him on there. He was way, way past his prime when he was knocked out by Lennox Lewis. When he fought Buster Douglas he was by that time under new management and trainers, and was, by all accounts, not well-managed. It's as if he had forgotten all the good training and technique that earlier mgmt taught him. I'm also a big fan of Marciano, but just want to note that the 1950's is generaly regarded as anything but the golden age of boxing. it was considered one of the less talent-laden decades. This is no rap on Marciano, though. Maybe he could've beaten Dempsey and others above him on my list, we'll never know. With my list, and anyone's top list, with such great boxers, who's to say that Foreman might not have creamed Marciano, or that Dempsey might not have gotten some early licks into Joe Louis that would have kayoed him, and on another night Louis done the same to Dempsey? There are so many variables, any list should be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes there's the matter of one boxer's style being a weak point against some opponenrts, and a strong point against others. But I think lists are good for speculating based on different variables. We'll just never know for sure. I'm glad you all are responding and opening discussion on great boxers. Let's keep it going. Pound for pound, I'd put Roy Jones, Jr. somewhere up there, but probably Sugar Ray Robinson at the top. |
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26 Feb 07 - 05:00 PM (#1980200) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall The thing to keep in mind is the fact that on any given night, any heavyweight can knock out any other heavyweight. The problem is getting a clear shot at that "Sweet spot", and the pros guard that spot. |
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26 Feb 07 - 05:08 PM (#1980212) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: pdq It would be interesting to know how Teofilo Stevenson would have rated as a professional. He won the Olympic gold medal as a heavyweight in 1972. George Foreman won it in 1968. Joe Frasier in 1964. That was a pretty good run, maybe three of the Top 10 all-time. |
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26 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM (#1980244) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Becca72 My personal favorite is Lennox Lewis. |
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26 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM (#1980327) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Peter Kasin Stevenson was awesome. He also won the Olympic gold medal at the '76 and '80 games. Some boxing experts think he might have become champion if he turned pro, and certainly would have been a top contender. |
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26 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM (#1980344) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rabbi-Sol But Fidel never gave him the chance to prove it. SOL |
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26 Feb 07 - 07:18 PM (#1980347) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall There was a lot of complaining that Stevenson was a professional being subsidized by the Cuban government and all. Talk was that boxing is all he did while the government supported him. |
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26 Feb 07 - 07:38 PM (#1980370) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Riginslinger The Middleweights of the 1950's. Jake Lamada Sugar Ray Robinson Gene Fulmer Bobo Olson I think there were a couple more. |
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26 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM (#1980383) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rabbi-Sol It is spelled LaMotta. Jake LaMotta was known as The Raging Bull and a movie was made about him starring Robert DiNero. SOL |
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26 Feb 07 - 07:57 PM (#1980392) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,dax Teofilio Stevenson at one time was supposed to fight Ali but it never came about. He would rate high though. Dempsy and Marciano were both small by todays heavyweight standard and Archie Moore was a ligt-heavy but it ain't so much the size of the dog in the fight as the size of the fight in the dog. Sam Langford may have been the best ever pound for pound as he was at best a middleweight soaking wet, yet fought and won against the worlds best heavies. Nobody would give him a title fight due partly to fear and largly to racism. http://www.iabpff.org/regions/site/sam1.html Liston should not be on the list as he was a Mafia patsy with a string of fixed fights. |
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27 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM (#1980514) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Riginslinger You're right, it was LaMotta. I thought that looked funny. |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM (#1980591) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: mandotim The reason I raised the issue of Stevenson was on the basis of one punch that sticks in my memory. He fought (I think) an Eastern European heavyweight, a huge hulk of a man in the early rounds of the Olympics; in the first round Stevenson hit him so hard he was lifted clean off his feet and deposited on his back, out cold. The punch was an orthodox left jab. He would certainly have threatened any of his contemporary pros with that kind of power. Tim |
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27 Feb 07 - 06:19 AM (#1980618) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,ib48 got a new telly last week,that box was pretty damn heavy i can tell you.Nearly broke my back. |
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27 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM (#1980741) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: clueless don On 26 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM, GUEST,meself wrote, regarding Ernest Hemingway: And Joe Louis, stopping his fist an inch from Papa's nose, advised him, "Stick to writing". Funny, but I read a similar anecdote regarding Hemingway and Gene Tunney. According to this story, Hemingway and Tunney were sparring, and Hemingway did something (can't tell you what) that went against the "unwritten" understanding of the rules of the session. Tunney then feinted down Hemingway's guard and sent a punch "whistling" at his face, stopping just short. At this point, Tunney is reported to have said "Don't you ever do that again!" I might have read this in Albert Payson Terhune's autobiography (Terhune, who wrote "Lad, a Dog" and similar dog stories, was apparently an accomplished amateur boxer), but I can't be sure. In any event, either Hemingway went around ticking off every major boxer of his time, or there's an urban legend afoot. Don |
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27 Feb 07 - 09:40 AM (#1980746) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall Riginslinger, I believe Joey Giardello belong in that group. |
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27 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM (#1980771) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,meself Clueless Don: I have to admit that I cannot vouch for the veracity of that Joe Louis anecdote; I was just repeating it more or less as I heard it - or as I think I remember having heard it - twenty-five or thirty years ago from someone who had just been reading some biography of Hemingway. However, from what I (think I) know of Hemingway, I think it quite likely he DID go around ticking off every major boxer of his time (and probably a lot of the minor ones too). There doesn't seem to be any question about the Morley Callaghan incident, though (they were sparring; Callaghan was clobbering him; F. Scott Fitzgerald was supposed to be keeping time, but was so distraught he forgot - Hemingway accused Fitzgerald of letting the round go overtime because he was enjoying the sight of Hemingway taking a beating, and those two never spoke again ... Callaghan gives a blow-by-blow account in That Summer in Paris). (As for Lad, a Dog - it was a source of much unhappiness in my childhood, in that it had me yearning over a period of years for my very own collie dog, which I was never allowed to have. Excuse me for a moment ... ) |
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27 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM (#1980866) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Little Hawk Sounds to me like Ernest Hemingway was a real pain in the neck to have around... |
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27 Feb 07 - 12:41 PM (#1980918) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Lonesome EJ he knew all the best fishing spots, though |
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27 Feb 07 - 03:59 PM (#1981084) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: gnu The best? We will never know. But, from a purely technical point of view... Larry Holmes. Lennox Lewis. Teofilo Stevenson. Ali. Pound for pound? Roberto Duran. (And don't give me that shit about Sugar Ray... when he fought Duran in the "No Mas" fight, it was worst display of "robbery" I have EVER seen. When Duran was pointing to his stomach, he was doing so NOT because he was injured but because he was SICK to his stomach. So was I.) On the other hand, I have seen only a few boxers who were as skilled as Sugar Ray and as entertaining to watch.... when I considered boxing entertainment. |
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28 Feb 07 - 07:44 AM (#1981635) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall Ali said in an interview that the best "boxer" the most skilled he ever fought was Floyd Patterson.I thought Jimmy Young gave him a good boxing lesson, but he didn't have the heavy punch to really hurt anyone. Duran quit. Even his most ardent fans turned on him for that. |
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28 Feb 07 - 09:22 AM (#1981729) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: 3refs Ali, with out question. The rest are all tied for a close second. Haven't read any mention of George Chuvalo. Never knocked out or off his feet! Threw knuckles with the worlds best. Ali, Forman, Fraser, Patterson and many say he beat Tyrell and should have won the Heavyweight championship in 1965. Ali said "He was the toughest man I ever fought." And Chuvalo quipped after their first fight, "Guess who went to the hospital and guess who went out dancing with his wife!" |
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28 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM (#1981734) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: 3refs Forgot to mention that George wasn't much for backing up and most of the time he lead with his right eye! |
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28 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM (#1981758) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall It's a damn shame that Ali was robbed of three years in his prime. He might well have been the best ever without question. |
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28 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM (#1981782) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman Kendall, I'll bet you remember the name of the "best fight referee"? I can't quite recall his name, but he was most often sought to referee the championship fights. He was always regarded as the most fair and honest. Bob |
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28 Feb 07 - 10:19 AM (#1981784) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman Rudy Golberg or Rudy Goldstein???? |
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28 Feb 07 - 11:38 AM (#1981871) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall Ruby Goldstien |
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28 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM (#1981882) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman Well, at least I was close! |
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28 Feb 07 - 12:51 PM (#1981935) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: fat B****rd I'm interested to see Sam Langford (The Boston Tar Baby) mentioned favourably here. He (if my memory serves me well) fought Joe Jeanette more times than some fighters have fights in their entire careers. Chanteyranger I think I'd have Jim Corbett in there instead of Jim Jeffries, but thankyou for a great thread. |
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28 Feb 07 - 12:59 PM (#1981946) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: fat B****rd Just had a look at Sam's record at a quick count he fought Joe 13 times over a period of years. The numbers of fights these guys took part was amazing. |
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28 Feb 07 - 01:05 PM (#1981951) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall You have to give those old fighters credit, Jefferies was 42 when he won the title, John L. Sullivan went 75 rounds with Jake Kilrain, and in those days, no wimpy gloves, bare knuckles! |
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28 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM (#1981985) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: pdq "And don't give me that shit about Sugar Ray...when he fought Duran..." I think people were were talking about "Sugar Ray" Robinson, not Leonard. He was bout 20 years earlier and was one of the greats. |
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28 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM (#1981988) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,meself If we're talking pound-for-pound (no pun intended), how 'bout the much-maligned Tommy Burns? "Just 5 foot, 7 inches tall, and weighing about 170 lbs, Burns was a middleweight by today's standards, but he held the world championship for two years and 10 months, defending it 14 times, before losing it to a black man, Jack Johnson, in a fight staged in Australia, fittingly on Boxing Day, December,1908." http://www.umanitoba.ca/cm/vol8/no4/tommy.html |
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28 Feb 07 - 02:00 PM (#1981996) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: gnu Yes, PDQ... sorry about not being clear there. I'd quit too, Kendall. Both fighters should have to fight by the rules, not just one. Anyway, it's one of those arguements that will never be settled... like Chuvalo... |
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28 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM (#1982008) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Leadbelly Ever heard of Max Schmeling? He wasn't the best but I think he should be mentioned. Manfred |
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28 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM (#1982067) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,Chanteyranger Fat B***rd, I rate Jeffries higher as Jeffries fought Corbett twice, and knocked him out both times, though it was late in Corbett's career. In his prime Jeffries was a great puncher, had a granite chin, and was surprisingly very fast on his feet (slowed down and past his prime when he fought Jack Johnson). He just seemed to have been on a higher plane than Corbett and many others of his era and the immediate preceding era. One thing to remember is that John L. Sullivan, Jeffries, and many other white boxers drew the color line (Burns to his credit finally agreed to fight Johnson)and refused to fight black boxers. Greats such as Peter Jackson, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette, and Sam Langford never had a chance at the title, so the record books are filled with black fighters boxing each other multiple times. Jack Johnson, when he became champion, also drew the color line against other black boxers, not wanting to risk his title against the likes of Langford, Jeanette, and McVey. There's a bittersweet, poignant film clip of Jack Johnson and Joe Jeanette boxing each other in an exhibition fundraiser when they were old men. They're smiling and enjoying their friendship as they move about, clinch, and throw soft punches. Chanteyranger |
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28 Feb 07 - 03:37 PM (#1982084) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: fat B****rd Fair comment, Chanteyranger. Those fighters never knew when to quit. I read a book about "The Great White Hopes". When Jeffries was dragged out of retirement to fight Johnson virtually all of America assumed he'd win. Jack taunted and knocked him around for rounds before knocking him out. The public reaction to Jack Johnson was virulent and he showed amazing courage in turning up at all, let alone being so brash about the whole thing. Corbett and Sullivan are on film together when they turned up to "see the ****** beaten". Peter Jackson fought a terrific no-contest with Corbett who apparently didn't do him the courtesy of calling him Mr. Jackson. Once again - great thread. |
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28 Feb 07 - 04:46 PM (#1982150) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,Chanteyranger Right, FB, Corbett was no "gentleman Jim' when it came to black boxers :-). A great thread it is. Thanks for your contributions and everyone's. Don't want to play the schoolmarm here, but it was mentioned that Jeffries was 42 when he won the title. Actually he was a young man when he won the title; born in 1875 and won it by knocking out Bob Fitzsimmons in 1899. Chanteyranger |
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28 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM (#1982194) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Deckman I was in the second row for that fight! Bob |
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28 Feb 07 - 06:09 PM (#1982233) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,meself Hey - you weren't the high-roller with the big waxed moustache, the derby at a rakish angle, the half-chewed cheroot one corner of his mouth, and a floozy on each arm, were you? Wait a minute - I think that was me - |
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28 Feb 07 - 07:40 PM (#1982301) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,Chanteyranger I thought I saw you there. I was listening to my A-Pod between rounds. |
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28 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM (#1982306) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Riginslinger Was Johnson and Jeffries the fight that was held in Reno, and Jack London did the commentary for the Associated Press (or whatever they called it then) through a running series of telegrams? |
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28 Feb 07 - 08:03 PM (#1982316) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: GUEST,Chanteyranger Yes, that was it. London very publicly urged Jeffries to come out of retirement to fight Johnson, for race reasons. London reported on the Johnson/Tommy Burns fight, and was so incensed by Johnson, he wanted Jeffries to "wipe that golden smile off Johnson's face." "It's up to you, Jeff," he wrote. like so many others, he couldn't accept a black champion, especially one who was proud and didn't fit stereotypes. |
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28 Feb 07 - 08:50 PM (#1982336) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Rabbi-Sol My cousin happens to be a boxing promoter. His name is Aaron Braunstein and he is the father of movie actress Natasha Lyonne. He is also a radio show host. He currently resides in a NYC penthouse apartment that Mike Tyson lived in. He claims that Tyson gave it to him as a present. If you go to his website, www.nyshockjock.com you will see pictures of him with many famous fighters including Jake LaMotta, Jose Torres, and Tyson. SOL |
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28 Feb 07 - 10:36 PM (#1982381) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall I mis spoke, it was Fitzsimmons who won the title at 42. |
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01 Mar 07 - 03:17 PM (#1983080) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Riginslinger Chanteyranger--Given what we know of Jack London--Socialist-Labor Activist--it's hard to think of him as a Racist. But, of course, those were different times. |
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02 Mar 07 - 02:24 AM (#1983569) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Peter Kasin kendall, how about a dream geezer match between Fitzsimmons and (the second coming of) George Foreman? :-). That was such an irony about London, riginslinger. You'd think a socialist activist might have different feelings about race than the general white population, but, as you note, those were different times. Fascinating stuff, Rabbi-Sol! Warning: typical Californian remark to follow: Thanks for sharing! Chanteyranger |
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02 Mar 07 - 04:37 AM (#1983628) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: fat B****rd If you Google "Unforgivable Blackness" there is a PBS site regarding the Johnson-Jeffries fight in 1910. Fascinating and disgraceful. |
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02 Mar 07 - 07:08 AM (#1983714) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall It really delights me to see Tiger Woods kicking asses on the golf course. When I was his age, he wouldn't even be allowed ON the course! How could anyone claim to be the best when they have refused to fight anyone, black or white? George Forman would kill Fitzsimmons. |
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02 Mar 07 - 07:47 PM (#1984466) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Riginslinger If Bob Fitzsimmons only weighed 155 lbs. when he was fighting, putting him in with George Foreman would be a real mismatch. |
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02 Mar 07 - 09:31 PM (#1984534) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Bobert Well, yeah, I can't much argue with anyone here... All these fighters was great but... ...fir this ol' hillbilly it was Clarky Crumbar an' it was like the 8th grade an' I was 'bout 5'8" an' 'bout hunnert pounds and Clarky had been kept back a few years an was like 5 years older an' 'bout 6'2" and 'round 240 an... ...well, one day in English class he kinda got this idea in his head that I was out to get him??? Hey, maybe this is why he was doing the 8th grade fir the 2nd 'er 4th time, I don't know... So, Clarky has dozed off in clas an' had some dream where aq 600 foot tall Jesus came to him an' said, "Bobert is out to get ya" so... Whats a 6'2", 240 kid to do??? So Mrs. Green called him up to front to get some test paper 'er somethin' and so he went on up fir the paper and on the way back figgured that he'd better take care of that "pesky Bobert" while he could so he... ... sucker punched the poor ol' Bobert with 'bout all them 240 and the poor ol' Bobert jus' went with chair 'bout 3 'er 5 feet back and bleedin' real bad but the best part 'bout it was that I din't remember the blood cause... ...I was out cold, too... Peace Bobert |
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03 Mar 07 - 02:20 AM (#1984667) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Peter Kasin The Fitzsimmons/Foreman suggestion was a lame attempt at a joke about a dream "geezer" match. Yes, Foreman, would have destroyed Fitzsimmons, probaly quicker than Jeffries ko'd him in reality. While on the subject of "dream" matches, what would you like to see if the miracle of a time machine would bring boxers together in their prime? First on most boxing fans list would have to be Ali vs Louis, to determine who really was 'the greatest." I'd bet on Ali. He had the style that gave Louis the most trouble, plus his great ability. Other dream matches I'd like to see, as far as the heavyweight division goes,would be Foreman vs Liston (god, what a slugfest that would be). I'd give the advantage to Liston. Ali, who ought to know, said Liston hit harder than Foreman, and Liston had better skills. Dempsey vs Louis, Marciano vs Frazier, Marciano vs Tyson, Jack Johnson vs Ali, Jeffries vs Dempsey, and the match that almost happened in reality, Dempsey vs Harry Wills. |
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03 Mar 07 - 11:49 AM (#1985001) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: Sandy Mc Lean Yvonne Durelle was anther great but a light heavy. His first fight against Archie Moore was an all time classic. He put Moore down four times, three in the first round and Moore benefited from a slow count. Moore recovered to win the match. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvon_Durelle http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=9445&more=1< |
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03 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM (#1985056) Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers From: kendall In my not so humble opinion, Tyson in his prime could lick any heavyweight that ever lived, with the possible exception of Ali. Tyson had remarkable hand speed and devastating power in both hands. He was also tougher than Japanese math. Ali, however, had the moves that would frustrate Tyson and keep himself from getting hit with those bombs. |