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27 Feb 07 - 02:21 PM (#1981009) Subject: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: Wolfgang You remember the winning world press photo 2007? There have been rumours that the photo looks too artificial, but it is real. I don't mean that with "lying". The photographer too has not lied in his simple descriptive caption "Young Lebanese driving through a destroyed quarter of Beirut". That's all he could know when taking that picture. The photo itself is lying by the wrong story it evokes in the observer. I have seen photo captions alluding to rich young Lebanese from a not destroyed part of the City on a "catastrophe safari" (war tourists) without any compassion with those who had lost their homes. This is the story the picture evokes and I guess this is why it has been awarded. There have been such people in Beirut sipping brandy in Christian or Sunni quarters on the roofs of their houses while watching Shiite quarters being bombed. But the people on the photo are not these. The real story of this picture is different. Bissan Maroun (the woman in the middle of the back) tells the story: The young people are actually from the destroyed neighbourhood. They had fled during the bombardments to a safe place. This is their first journey back into their destroyed neighbourhood in a borrowed car. The three siblings (and two friends) wanted to find out whether their appartment block was still standing. Maroun's flat has been actually hit hard with all the windows smashed and most of the furniture destroyed. When this photo was published, Maroun had a lot of trouble with people who didn't know her well enough. For a couple of days she couldn't come to her job. The photo is real, the original caption was correct and still it has told a lie. The five people may be invited to the ceremony, now the real story is known. But would this photo be world press photo 2007 when the real story would have been known earlier? Wolfgang |
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27 Feb 07 - 02:32 PM (#1981015) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Having just viewed this photo for the first time, and not having a clue as to what "word press photo 2007" is, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. The photo does not strike me as "war tourists", and I peeked at the photo before I read your description. Yes, the women are attractive and appear to be well dressed, the car looks shiny - but they do not seem to be vapid. They look like they are hurt by what they see. Your story appears to bring that out as well. Yes, it may be in the eye of the beholder - but you can't assume that people think the worst. |
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27 Feb 07 - 02:47 PM (#1981026) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: Jean(eanjay) At first glance I thought it was 2 photos in one and that the car had been superimposed. It looks somehow "unreal" and perhaps that is what the photographer was trying to achieve, who knows. |
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27 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM (#1981031) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: pdq Propaganda photos are not new. They are quite effective. here is one |
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27 Feb 07 - 02:57 PM (#1981036) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko You seem cynical PDQ. All photos are propaganda in that reality. |
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27 Feb 07 - 02:58 PM (#1981037) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: Ebbie "...information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc." One definition of propaganda I would add that the definition could be added to thus: "graphic depictions of an idea or an event to inform and educate the reader or viewer" |
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27 Feb 07 - 03:20 PM (#1981055) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: TIA I understand Wolfgang's point, but I would word it differently. Neither the photographer, nor the photo are lying. But, many viewers might make wrong assumptions based on their own personal prejudices, and the end result is the same as if there was a lie. |
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27 Feb 07 - 03:57 PM (#1981083) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: pdq Ron, Hate to disagree, but being able to see through the bullshit does not make one a cynic. It does, however, require a keen eye. The photos by Dorothea Lange (aka Dorothea Margarette Nutzhorn from Hoboken, New Jersey) were used to convince the American people that everything was awful. Nearly hopeless. That's why they needed FDR to rescue them and fix everything. If may quote from her biography: "Lange is best known for her Depression-era work for the Farm Security Administration (FSA). Lange's photographs humanized the tragic consequences of the Great Depression and profoundly influenced the development of documentary photography." Wolfgang says the World Press photo "was correct and still it has told a lie". Same with the "Migrant Mother" photos. Most of the 'facts' given with the photo are not correct. The impression left was the only 'truth' considered necessary. Therefore it is either art or it is propaganda but it is not really documentary. |
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27 Feb 07 - 04:00 PM (#1981086) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko PDQ, I hate to disagree with you - but the impression given by Lange's photo was a real one. People can walk through life with blinders on or they can look at photos like that and react. It is not a lie when it shows the truth. Propaganda is not a dirty word. |
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27 Feb 07 - 04:31 PM (#1981115) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: pdq No Ron, it gives an impression which you choose in interpret as truth. Your opinion that propaganda is just fine highlights the divide between people who have a scientific background and those who studied liberal arts. To me, facts are facts, and anything that gives an incorrect impression is a type of lie. |
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27 Feb 07 - 04:42 PM (#1981124) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Thanks PDQ! I am very proud to have a liberal arts background. I hope you do understand that liberal arts are just as important as scientific thinking. You can have a bunch of facts but you need to know what to do with them. I think you are very wrong when you say that anything that gives an incorrect impression is a lie. An impression is your feeling, it is truthful to you. It is not a lie. I can look at a piece of cheese and my mouth will water, someone who is lactose intolerant might feel nausea. It does not mean that the cheese is a lie. The "fact" is that a picture was taken that shows a woman in a migrant worker camp. The details are there for everyone to view. However you choose to interpret those facts follows how you determine to live your life. I hope you aren't living a lie. |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM (#1981160) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: pdq You can have a bunch of facts but you need to know what to do with them Yep, and science majors will study those fact while liberal arts majors will throw them out if they fail to re-enforce their pre-conceived opinions. I hope you aren't living a lie We all do, to some extent. Objectivists are more likely to admit it. About the series of photos (check the one I posted, it is not exactly the common one from the series), Florence Owens (m. Thompson) was not homeless nor was she at the labor camp to pick beans. Her car stopped running on the highway and she turned toward the camp. The car was pushed out of the way. She stayed about three days until the car was fixed. I believe her husband was a sawmill worker and made good money for that time. People who wanted to exploit the photo(s) for their purposes (=use for propaganda) claimed she had just sold the tires off her car to buy food for her sick children. She was also exploited to represent the dreadful conditions caused by the Great Depression, yet she was actually a migrant due to the Dust Bowl conditions in her native Oklahoma, not from economic fallout from the 1929 stock crash. (PS, I'm half Okie with a smidge of Cherokee, so I feel real sympathy for these people) |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM (#1981161) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: Bill D Quibbling about word use is interesting, but often just serves to sidetrack the issue. Perhaps 'lie' is too strong a word here, and 'misleading' would have been better. The fact remains, the picture Wolfgang noted was famous because it seemed to show something different than what was actually the case. It would perhaps have been better if the folks were not identifiable, so the 'point' could be made without causing them stress, but I doubt the photographer had time to do an interview. |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:21 PM (#1981169) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: Charley Noble Wolfgang- For some reason your link doesn't work for me but here's another one to the same photo: click here! The photo is certainly open to interpretation. What I'm struck with is the sharp contrast between the bombed out neighborhood and the well-maintained sportscar. The teenagers look like middle-class teenagers, rather than rich ones, but they clearly don't look like the refugees that they are. One appears to have a cellphone in her hand and another is shielding her nose. Charley Noble |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:23 PM (#1981173) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko PDQ, the story behind that photo is interesting - but the photo still speaks for itself. It is not a lie. I would be curious as to where you found that information. I agree with you, it is wrong to give out an incorrect story about a picture. The viewer can see what they wish. I don't think we will ever know what made the Mona Lisa smile, but I would hate to think that you consider the painting to be a lie because there are so many interpretations. What a dull world we would live in if all we had were "facts"! "Yep, and science majors will study those fact while liberal arts majors will throw them out if they fail to re-enforce their pre-conceived opinions." Sounds like you have your own preconceived opinion at work there! You completely missed the point about using the facts. You can study them all you wish, but if you do not know what they mean it is usless information. That is where liberal arts take over. You need a balance and I hope you are not as biased as you are making yourself out to be. What is with all the italics??? |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:26 PM (#1981179) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "The teenagers look like middle-class teenagers, rather than rich ones, but they clearly don't look like the refugees that they are." We should remember to take a look at the calendar - it is 2007. Do we really think that refugees are living in huts and wearing torn robes these days? Cell phones are everywhere, so are cars. This strife is not occuring in the middle of nowhere. |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:33 PM (#1981187) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: pdq A scientist is likely to say "facts are facts" while a liberal arts major will say "perception is reality". There lies The Great Divide that is seldom bridged. Nice discussion, Ron. Have a good show show there at NPR... |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM (#1981192) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: Scoville Or she's blowing her nose because of the dust. Sometimes you just need a Kleenex. And who cares if they are on cell phones? Wouldn't YOU be on your cell looking for your friends and family if your neighborhood had been blown up (or if your neighborhood had been wiped out by a hurricane, as a lot of Gulf Coast residents will testify)? |
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27 Feb 07 - 05:43 PM (#1981200) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: Ebbie The photo did eventually have a positive effect on the 'Migrant Mother'. More of Florence Thompson's Interesting Story "None of us ever really understood how deeply Mama's photo affected people," said Owens. "I guess we had only looked at it from our perspective. For Mama and us, the photo had always been a bit of curse. After all those letters came in, I think it gave us a sense of pride." |
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27 Feb 07 - 07:09 PM (#1981274) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "A scientist is likely to say "facts are facts" while a liberal arts major will say "perception is reality". There lies The Great Divide that is seldom bridged. Nice discussion, Ron. Have a good show show there at NPR..." I wish! Would you tune in? Wow PDQ, I am sorry you are so set in your ways. When did science discover how to read other people's minds? I'm wondering how you can make assumptions such as a liberal arts major would say "perception is reality". Very presumptious. |
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27 Feb 07 - 07:25 PM (#1981282) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: robomatic I want to thank pretty much everyone on this thread for 'splaining to me some photos which I'd seen but clearly didn't understand fully. On the one hand, you all reinforce the point that 'seeing is believing, but maybe it shouldn't be' !!! On the other hand, neither photo has changed my existing opinions regarding the events in which they are situated. |
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27 Feb 07 - 07:27 PM (#1981285) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko That is the best answer Robomatic. |
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27 Feb 07 - 07:33 PM (#1981291) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: robomatic I had the image of this photo in my mind when I was reading this thread, and lo and behold it's in the onternet: No Way Like The American Way! photo made by my favorite professional photographer of the last millenium- Margaret Bourke-White |
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27 Feb 07 - 07:35 PM (#1981293) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: GUEST,Art Thieme People, people, people, I offer this quote from Pablo Picasso. "Art is a lie that let's us see the truth!" |
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27 Feb 07 - 07:36 PM (#1981296) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: pdq I hope you do understand that liberal arts are just as important as scientific thinking. You can have a bunch of facts but you need to know what to do with them. Talk about presumptious, Ron! You seem to feel the scientists must come crawling to people like you who will find the 'true meaning' in all those unkempt facts. Actually, we are the ones who have the training, so, 'don't try this at home' may apply. Actually, I simply wanted to make the point that America's most famous visual human image was a bit misleading. It gives an impression rather than projecting reality. Same with Wolfgang's photo. That's all.
[PDQ--you failed to close 3 sets of italics with the 2nd 'i'] |
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27 Feb 07 - 08:21 PM (#1981325) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Come crawling???? Who the #$)*($ ever said that,you presumptious bag of wind!!! That felt better!! Damn scientists think they know everything! At least liberal arts majors went to parties in college!! Science majors got their kicks looking at the "hot" pictures in biology book!! All kinding aside, I know you are not a schmuck and I see now that neither one of us are making such definitive statements. Yes, you are right that a picture gives an impression - that was my point as well. I guess you were also right when you said perception is reality. That doesn't make it a lie. Comeon PDQ, there is a kegger going on at dorm. Put away that copy of Playboy you've been hiding in your chem book, wash your hands, and lets go. I'll bring the Doritos. And stop with the italics, you are going to go blind! |
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28 Feb 07 - 12:38 AM (#1981455) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: John O'L The photographs discussed here do not lie, and they do not tell the truth either. They isolate a particular truth and bring it into sharp focus. It thus becomes unreal, but not untrue. The viewer is then confronted with a truth that might otherwise have passed unnoticed, or completely unknown. |
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28 Feb 07 - 10:00 AM (#1981763) Subject: RE: BS: The lying world press photo 2007 From: robomatic Likewise with verbage. |
