BS: England's Evil Empire

06 Mar 07 - 03:42 PM (#1988553)
Subject: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Folk Form # 1

Book Description
"They invented slums. They invented child labor. They put Saddam Hussein in power. They burned Joan of Arc at the stake, and they enslaved the globe to get their tea fix. We're talking about England, of course, and the terrible evils they've set loose on the world. In The Evil Empire, American author Steven Grasse documents the 101 worst atrocities of Mother England everything from foxhunting to the invention of the concentration camp. With an irreverent mix of historical facts, smart commentary, and red-blooded American arrogance, Grasse offers a devastating critique of the country that gave us the machine gun, factory labor, and the metric system. Publishing just in time for the Queen's birthday (April 21), The Evil Empire is essential reading for true-blue Americans and others oppressed by the English throughout history."

This is the blurb from Amazon for a new book by Steven Grasse. What do Mudcatters think? Do you want to fly to America to shake Grasse's hand or to punch him on the nose?

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06 Mar 07 - 03:45 PM (#1988556)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wesley S

So - what has England done LATELY ?

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06 Mar 07 - 03:50 PM (#1988564)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Big Al Whittle

yeh and all those crap folksongs...what a gang of arseholes! there should be fence just keeping them on the one island....Madagascar ,perhaps.

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06 Mar 07 - 03:57 PM (#1988575)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: dianavan

Maybe its just my American background but I have always thought of England as a culture of oppression but I guess you can say that about the U.S. too. For that matter, many governments tend to be oppressive. He probably focussed on England because of its colonial period. Easy to write about and lots of historical fact.

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06 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM (#1988596)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

I haven't read the book.

I am aware of English history, and I am also aware that perspectives on it coming from academics in countries that were subject to British imperialism are generally a bit more scathing than those found in English or American publications.

Even world maps are still disproportionate in the way they represent the size of Britain and Ireland. You would think Mali or Libya weren't actually that big by comparison if it weren't for other source material.

And it is of course important that this kind of post colonial nostalgia have it's bubble burst from time to time, lest the world forget and be insppired to come up with copycat ideas like lebensraum (Hitler was equally inspired by other altogether more embarrassing aspects of British history - slaughter of jews being one and concentration camps being another).

HOWEVER!

Merely listing atrocities committed by a country comes to me from a questionable motive. It sounds like a pretty fundamentalist way of looking at history.

It seems like an immature attempt to tittilate the ego's of the "right-on"'s in society. What historical value does it have?

It lists historical events that have already been uncovered without offering any new perspectives by the sound of it, so it isn't saying anything that we don't alrready know.

I would call it an "ammo" book for the Brit basher, and the aforementioned "right-on"'s. I can imagine army's of socialist worker newspaper sellers with well thumbed copies in their back pockets ready to whip them out like penis extensions, at a moments notice, to justify whatever spurious theory they have chosen to espouse for that moment.

... just a gut reaction to a book I haven't read though ...

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06 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM (#1988599)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: alanabit

What! The Brits get no credit for drug running to China, or introducing VD to large areas of the Pacific? The trouble is, who does the "England's Evil Empire" refer to? How many mill workers, miners, soldiers, sailors or labourers got a cushy number because of this empire? There probably is a big enough buffoon somewhere, who really does believe that the UK is a land of Jeeves and Bertie Woosters. It's as intelligent as believing that "Dallas" is an accurate portrayal of everyday American life.

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06 Mar 07 - 04:17 PM (#1988602)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

Isn't Dallas an accurate portrayal of american life?

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06 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM (#1988632)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Paul from Hull

THIS
: is the current entry, as it stands, for Mr Grasse....

I've tried to Google for his name, & if its the same bloke, he has a history of 'controversy' & some ridicule (unsurprisingly!) films classed as 'Rotten Tomatoes' on the film review site of that name, etc.

There was a thread about the book on another site I visit, a week or so ago, but I can't find the thread on there again.

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06 Mar 07 - 05:03 PM (#1988658)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Paul from Hull

Ooops...I meant to say that sthe current WIKIPEDIA entry for him - interesting in that, as it says: "This page may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion. The given reason is: It is a page created primarily to disparage its subject" - I wonder how long it will remain unchanged from that!

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06 Mar 07 - 05:11 PM (#1988670)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: folk1e

What has england done recently?
It all depends on how recent you want to be!
If you include the time of the "empire" ......
Abolition of Slavery
Starting State democracy
The industrial revolution
Preventing Hitler from ruling the world
modern nursing
What that is not recent enough for you?
Well how about stopping the prolifferation of G.M. crops?
The computer
modern high speed aircraft
If you look there are many examples of both good and bad issues any empire is involved with. Some may not like the results of our penal system! others do!
Anyway I can win the arguement with one word ..... BEER

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06 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM (#1988687)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: mrdux

Grasse descibes himself on the book's webpage:

"Steven A. Grasse is a cultural studies analyst and media communications expert, who has extensively studied the British Empire. He is also the spokesperson for the International Coalition for British Reparations (ICBR), a massive global initiative for reparations from England worth 58 trillion dollars. . . This is his first book, and given the Brits' thin skins and their adeptness at manipulating history, he will not be surprised if it turns out to be his last." http://www.evilempirebook.com/author.php

I've also seen him described as a "Philadelphia advertising executive" (the Daily Pennsylvanian), who has spent "a lifetime in marketing" (the Daily Mail).

He's probably not the same guy as the Steve Grasse who directed two "Bikini Bandits" movies.

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06 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM (#1988688)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Jack Campin

The worst single thing you could blame Emgland for was creating the US and its state ideology. Compared with that, the Amritsar massacre and the partition of India are trivial.

The "concentration camps" thing is a popular US urban legend, but the US imposed them on the Indians in a far more brutal way, and used them in the Civil War, decades before Britain tried them in South Africa.

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06 Mar 07 - 05:33 PM (#1988693)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wesley S

How would y'all define the difference between a jail and a concentration camp?

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06 Mar 07 - 05:39 PM (#1988697)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ebbie

Jack Campin, I think your reasoning and conclusion, not to mention your terminology, needs some tweaking.

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06 Mar 07 - 05:46 PM (#1988703)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself

"Preventing Hitler from ruling the world" - everyone knows it was the Americans who did this - they keep telling us -

"This is his first book, and given the Brits' thin skins and their adeptness at manipulating history, he will not be surprised if it turns out to be his last."

Any idea what that's supposed to mean?

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06 Mar 07 - 05:55 PM (#1988710)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Paul from Hull

Aha! Thanks mrdux....I stand corrected, though I think it was an understandable error....both individuals seem to court controversy.

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06 Mar 07 - 06:12 PM (#1988740)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

"The "concentration camps" thing is a popular US urban legend"

I'm not American, nor do I live in America, therefore I am not exposed to American Urban Mythology.

The British interned Boer families: men, women and children in concentration camps during the boer war. These were the first concentration camps, existing purely to "concentrate" boers in one place.

They weren't prisoners of war or criminals.

Hence the terms used.

PS I am also neither Boer nor Dutch.

The boers descendents, Afrikaaners, remember the cruelty of the British well (Ironic given their treatment of Black and coloured Africans yes, but true nonetheless).

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06 Mar 07 - 07:53 PM (#1988896)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ebbie

American Japanese also were not 'prisoners of war' nor criminals but merely concentrated. The fact that there were barbed wire fences around the perimeter and they were not allowed to leave- unless they went off to fight for the Allies - surely didn't matter. Right?

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06 Mar 07 - 08:03 PM (#1988906)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Big Al Whittle

Its evil, don't listen to the apologists.

it really stinks, particularly the folk music.

they all wear fisherman's smocks, and have secret signs sticking fingers in their ears, and pretend to like real ale, and it gives them brain damage and they forget the words to songs that should have died out years ago - cos they're crap, and they have festivals where they eat human faesces called vegeburgers...and play concertinas...the bastards!

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06 Mar 07 - 08:24 PM (#1988946)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Jack Campin

The urban legend is not that the British used concentration camps, it's the idea that they *invented* them. The US had been herding Indians into them for decades before the Boer War, with far more genocidal effect.

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06 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM (#1988954)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Nickhere

lox - "Even world maps are still disproportionate in the way they represent the size of Britain and Ireland. You would think Mali or Libya weren't actually that big by comparison if it weren't for other source material"

I agree. have you seen the 'Peters Projection' maps? They show the world proportionately - quite different to what we are used to seeing.

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06 Mar 07 - 08:40 PM (#1988964)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Peace

Here's a pic.

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06 Mar 07 - 08:41 PM (#1988965)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Ricky

Ah please don't use the Ireland word, that's the trigger word for Keith from Heartfordshire

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06 Mar 07 - 08:44 PM (#1988967)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ebbie

What concentration camp(s) did the US "herd" the Indians into, Jack Campin? Reservations, yes, but reservations were not fenced and most of them are many square miles in size. Hardly a concentration camp.

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06 Mar 07 - 09:42 PM (#1988999)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Little Hawk

Well, I would agree that England was guilty of a great many wrongs all through its imperial phase. However, I think they passed the imperial torch, albeit somewhat unwillingly, to the USA in 1945, and the USA has never looked back. Will Steven Grasse do a book on America's Evil (Mercantile) Empire next, I wonder, just to be fair? ;-)

The Soviets had a good kick at the imperial can too, till they ran out of money.

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06 Mar 07 - 11:33 PM (#1989065)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Folk Form # 1

I wonder if Mel Gibson will buy up the film rights?

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07 Mar 07 - 03:43 AM (#1989153)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Keith A of Hertford

In the 1830's, Native Americans still lived in their native lands for the most part. However, white men considered them a threat to peace. So, in 1838, the Federal government had what they called the "Five Civilized Tribes" removed. These tribes were the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole. They were moved at a forced march up to 800 miles from their homelands to the "Indian Territory", which is modern-day Oklahoma. Under cruel conditions, the army forced the peaceful tribes through the cold, winter weather to their new homes. During this ordeal, known as the "Trail of Tears", over 4,000 Cherokees alone died, out of the 15,000 moved. They died due to disease, exposure, and starvation.

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07 Mar 07 - 04:09 AM (#1989167)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

Europe ravaged the west coast of Africa for slaves, the British Oppressed the Irish, The Japanese did horrible things to the Chinese and Koreans, Ghengis Khan forcibly populated the world with children carrying his genes (the most succesful genetic human strain ever) and Native Americans were treated with the utmost cruelty by their conquering opressors.

All terrible atrocities.

The British invented the concentration camp in South Africa. If this is wrong then there will be examples that show it to be so.

Feel free to supply them anytime you like.

:-)

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07 Mar 07 - 04:11 AM (#1989168)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

ps - I mean factually not morally ...

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07 Mar 07 - 04:23 AM (#1989177)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wordsmith

Well, I haven't read the book and don't intend to, but I just had to put my two-cents in. We have some blue-blooded arrogant Americans here in the USA; one of them is descended from British Kings, as was his father, former President, George HW Bush.

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07 Mar 07 - 04:23 AM (#1989178)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

here is a basic explanation

concentration camps


I think that you are confuse between the creation in south Africa of concentration camps and the creation of "homelands" something which would be comparable to the creation of reservations in North America.

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07 Mar 07 - 04:43 AM (#1989192)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Shimrod

I feel several cliches coming on: "History is written by the winners", "Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely" etc., etc., etc.
All empires do bad things but they have a tendency to forget them (even if their victims don't) and only teach their children about the good things.

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07 Mar 07 - 05:01 AM (#1989203)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dave the Gnome

I have been embroiled in this argument over and over. England is not evil. The English people are not evil. Politicians and people of power are the ones who commit these atrocities and they are the same whatever nationality they are. The popular press are evil in perpetuating these myths.

Mr Grasse is not wrong in his book, it is only his terminology. If by 'England' he means the ruling classes he is spot on. As 'England' does not exist as a political entity in it's own right and has not for 300 years I have no objection to the term being taken over to mean something else.

What we need now of course is home rule for Lancashire and a new name for that bit of Britain south of Scotland and east of Wales!

Cheers

Dave

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07 Mar 07 - 05:17 AM (#1989215)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: ard mhacha

Little Hawk you are spot on regarding England handing over to the US the whip long used by the English to lash obedience into their unwilling overseas subjects, while Blair and his predecessors tagged behind like obedient poodles.

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07 Mar 07 - 05:18 AM (#1989216)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Stu

Arrgghh! Forgot to close my "i" tags!

Sorry.

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07 Mar 07 - 05:35 AM (#1989227)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dazbo

Strange isn't it. Continually we get from the Scots, Irish and Welsh that the English continually confuse England with Britain yet whenever the BRITISH empire did anything wrong it's the ENGLISH that did it! Come on you Celts! you can't have it both ways: the Scots, Irish and Welsh can't claim on the one hand that they contributed mightily to the success of the Empire yet blame the English for all the ills of that empire. You're as much to blame as the English for the positive and negative aspects of the empire.

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07 Mar 07 - 05:40 AM (#1989230)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dazbo

Max Hastings's Rebuttal

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07 Mar 07 - 05:48 AM (#1989233)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Grab

but reservations were not fenced and most of them are many square miles in size

Who needs wire when you've got a few hundred miles of desert with no food or water...?

They invented slums. They invented child labor.

Eh? "Slum" is an invented concept to describe what was considered sub-standard housing when general housing standards improved. If we say that the Brits invented it, then we credit the British with having raised housing standards sufficiently that what everyone previously thought was an OK working-class house was now considered sub-standard.

As for child labour, better talk to the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. Children *not* working is a very modern idea.

And I'm not sure how the metric system (invented by the French, incidentally - nice to see this is a pure work of fiction) and industrialised production methods qualify as "bad".

No, I wouldn't travel to the US to punch him on the nose. But I might travel to the US to shout at people who consider buying this, "Where did you leave your brain this morning, fuckwit?!"

Graham.

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07 Mar 07 - 06:02 AM (#1989240)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Keith A of Hertford

Guest Lox, you tell us that Boers remember British cruelty.
Why do you think that? I have met Afrikaners and never get that impression.
Most Boers supported Britain in WW1 just 14 years later, and again in WW2.
South Africa was suspended from the British Commonwealth over their racial policies, but they were happy to rejoin when they sorted it out.
Equally false claims of historic emnity between us and Kenya have recently appeared on this forum.
It is just not true. The old Empire are Britain's friends and allies.

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07 Mar 07 - 06:08 AM (#1989243)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: folk1e

I include "industrial prodution methods" on the good side!
Post industrial production methods are better!
It isn't perfect by any means but how about the inclusion of migrant workers and Ethnic Minorities? I think we have generally done O.K. in that respect.

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07 Mar 07 - 06:37 AM (#1989254)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Bee

Motes and beams: there is no country that doesn't have history to be ashamed of and history to be proud of; Mr. Grasse is just pandering to the US market for 'see? we're not as bad as so-and-so'.

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07 Mar 07 - 07:01 AM (#1989262)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wolfgang

have you seen the 'Peters Projection' maps? They show the world proportionately (Nickhere)

No, they don't. They are "area accurate" which is something different.

Wolfgang

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07 Mar 07 - 07:20 AM (#1989279)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

I know people who still won't buy a Japanese car because of WW2. Reminding them that the people who caused WW2 are long dead (Including FDR) does no good. They are locked into the hatred and nothing can shake them. Reason is futile.
I'm not responsible for what my ancestors did to the Indians, or the blacks. You Brits are not responsible for what your ancestors did to the "Sheet" Indians or the Boers.
We ARE responsible for what WE do, and what we allow our governments to do.

Point of fact, it was an American who invented the machine gun, Hiram Maxim.He also invented smokeless gun powder.

America is the only country that ever dropped an atom bomb on civilians. I had nothing to do with that, being 11 years old at the time.
This guy sounds like a hate monger to me.

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07 Mar 07 - 07:39 AM (#1989295)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Teribus

Thanks for the link Dazbo, certainly puts things into perspective.

For a work to balance things up, those reading Mr. Grasse's book should try Niall Fergusons work on The British Empire and it effect on the modern world. That comes to the same conclusion that Max Hastings (+ a rather large number of world acclaimed historians) that on balance the British Empire overall was very much a force to the good of mankind.

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07 Mar 07 - 07:54 AM (#1989315)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

Hiram Maxim was born in Sangersville Maine. I had nothing to do with that either.

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07 Mar 07 - 07:59 AM (#1989319)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

Actually, Steve Grasse was on the Today programme on R4 this morning, and I thought he was hilarious.

Let's face it: Britain and America both have a hell of a lot to answer for. Both have a history of actions which many of us here would like to absolve ourselves from, in the "not in my name" mode of political engagement.

But recently, as an American living in the UK, the pious sanctimony of some of those I've spoken to has been a bit galling. American-bashing is a bit of a sport of choice in certain circles.

I don't take it particularly personally - well, most of the time, though when people are being particularly personal I tend to respond in kind (after all, if you don't know that I'm the most left-leaning, Anglicised American you're ever likey to meet, you don't know me very well).

That's why Steve Grasse cracked me up this morning - his unapologetic brashness was very funny indeed.

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07 Mar 07 - 09:07 AM (#1989395)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Folk Form # 1

I heard Steve Grasse this morning, as well. It cracked me up. but for different reasons. His main reason for writing the book, it seems to me, was because he was fed up of things written by some UK journalists who were critical of American forighn policy, At the end, he asked why didn't Britain say thank you to the Amricans for what they were doing in Iraq. Sounds to me like a spurned lover, either that or else he is having a hissy fit.

Incidentally, for those who in Britain, we can can watch Mel Gibson's The Patriot, which is probably Steve Grasse's favourite film.

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07 Mar 07 - 09:18 AM (#1989408)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Grab

Thanks for the link, Dazbo. If Stephen Grasse's idiocy has made one contribution to the world, it's triggering that article.

Graham.

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07 Mar 07 - 09:23 AM (#1989412)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

The idiot should be burned at the stake, after serving time down t'pit and being interned in a slum concentration camp.

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07 Mar 07 - 09:39 AM (#1989427)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

Scrump, that sounds familiar...now let me see....Oh yes, the Muslims who over reacted to the cartoons of Muhammad.

I've traveled extensivly in the UK and I don't hear any "America bashing".

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07 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM (#1989455)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself

I get the impression that some people are taking this book seriously. One question: why?

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07 Mar 07 - 10:06 AM (#1989457)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: greg stephens

Nobody's mentioned Enid Blyton books.

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07 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM (#1989468)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Little Hawk

Great post, Kendall! (a couple back) You are so right that no one is responsible for what his ancestors did. Children do not inherit their parents' or grandparents' guilt, and no one is guilty merely by association.

I would have to agree with Teribus that the British Empire, as empires go, also did a lot of good in the sense that they were far better organized than most empires, had a better system of law and governance than most empires, and were less brutal in their treatment of colonized people than many empires have been. So it was a mixed picture. (Rome was like that too, and I'd say that the British to some extent consciously modelled their own empire on the classical Greco-Roman example. Note the names of many British warships, for instance, when it comes to that.)

There is a good deal of admiration still among modern day Indians and Pakistanis, for example, for the British, despite the fact that they certainly do not want the British to rule them. Yet they admire Great Britain, and the many of the wealthier still send their sons and daughters there for "a British education" if they can manage it. This indicates that they see value in the British system.

I guess you could call it a "love/hate" relationship? ;-) What I mean is, both emotions are certainly in play there not just one of them, among Britain's former colonial peoples. This indicates that when it came to running empires, the British didn't do a half-bad job as empires go.

I'd say they did a considerably better job than the Americans are presently doing.

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07 Mar 07 - 10:25 AM (#1989490)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ebbie

Grab: "Who needs wire when you've got a few hundred miles of desert with no food or water...?"

That's still inaccurate. Blameable as the US reservation policy was it is more that the Indians were forcibly removed from their ancestral homes to another region - different climate, no ties to their ancestors, sometimes encroaching on other tribes' lands - than it was that the new region was unlivable.

There are people living in those regions to this day.

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07 Mar 07 - 10:34 AM (#1989505)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Heed

if so how do you explain this:

http://www.justiceforengland.com/news.htm

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07 Mar 07 - 10:53 AM (#1989538)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST

Heard the author, I hesitate to use the word, on Richard and Judy last night and on the Today prog this morning. His arguements are falacious and quite frankly he couldn't argue his way out of a brown paper bag. I think Quinten Letts comment of last night that basically its a loo book is about right

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07 Mar 07 - 11:20 AM (#1989559)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

Keith.

I don't doubt your sincerity, but you aren't that well informed if you are unaware of the suspicion and prejudice that really exists between "british" south africans and Afrikaaners.

The fact that you as a non south african have been able to socialize with Afrikaaners doesn't really have much to do with the reality of SA's cultural history.

As individuals and in their own context, Afrikaaners are of course warm frindly hospitable and generous. This is also true of every other "type" of human alive.

This fact is equally irrelevant to the historical fact of british/boer mistrust.

I am sure that you've never met a white south african who said he was pro Apartheid either. Yet it took a long bitter and bloody struggle to bury it once and for all and the majority of them were quite happy to benefit from it while it was there, just as they are quite blind to the continued disparity in wealth and privilege that exists today.

South Africa is a very complex and traumatised Nation and cannot be judged simplistically on the basis of pleasantaries exchanged at a social function.

I'll rely on the knowledge I have learned from reading and from my brother who lives in pretoria thanks.

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07 Mar 07 - 11:43 AM (#1989581)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself

"I think Quinten Letts comment of last night that basically its a loo book is about right" -

Perhaps I'm a literary critic of the highest order, but I concluded that from the initial post in this thread - again, why is this silly book being given serious attention? (Couldn't have anything to do with the author's background in marketing, could it?)

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07 Mar 07 - 12:00 PM (#1989597)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Keith A of Hertford

OK Lox, what about the Boers who chose to fight for Britain against Germany who tried to persuade them to revolt against the British.

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07 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM (#1989605)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

Kendall, I've travelled extensively in the UK too - especially in the 16 years I've lived here. Trust me on this one - there's a fair bit of it about at the moment. I'm not saying people's anger about Iraq and globalisation isn't justified, but the way they express their distaste for the actions of the US government by having a sneery pop at the whole culture is as inappropriate as it is ignorant.

And you sure as hell didn't want to be over here in the aftermath of 9/11, I'll tell you that for nowt.

"At the end, he asked why didn't Britain say thank you to the Americans for what they were doing in Iraq"

I don't think he was referring specifically to Iraq - I think he was referring to American interventionism in a wider context (though I was making my daughter's lunch at the time and only half listening). But when he said "What about a thank you once in a while?" I laughed out loud. He was clearly on the wind-up.

What's the matter with you lot - don't you get irony?

:)

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07 Mar 07 - 12:55 PM (#1989634)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: dianavan

I have not read the book but it sounds like a refreshing look at history. As I recall, most texts for students are glorified accounts of the nation's history (regardless of which nation we are talking about). I think every country should have a book written which shows their dark side and I think it should be written in language accessible to school kids. It would probably increase their reading skills and improve their comprehension but above all else, it would develop their critical thinking skills.

Why not?

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07 Mar 07 - 01:03 PM (#1989645)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: beardedbruce

Point of fact- England did NOT invent beer, They may have perfected it, but they did not invent it...

There was a thread here a while back... about the 4000+ year old brewery ( well, brewing vats) found. (No "beer" in the title, I checked)

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07 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM (#1989646)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

No doubt there are some in the UK who like Americans but hate our government. There are plenty of those right here!

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07 Mar 07 - 04:17 PM (#1989857)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

Keith

I think I have succesfully defended my points that A) The British invented the concentration camp and B) The boers and "british" south africans hold each other in suspicious regard.

Your subsequent point is a tangent and a diversion. But while we are on the subject, what about it?

The boers felt that they were the supreme race in their own land, and it was bad enough having to put up with the "british" south africans without having to suffer the arrogance of the German Nazi regime to boot.

They saw themselves as the only true white south africans, the "british" ones being "salt dicks" who had never moved inland from the coast (their dicks still being in the sea), while the true Afrikaaners were farmers who lived on the land and were a part of it.

But at least the "british" ones had a history there. Occupation by more meddling europeans was not their idea of national emancipation.

It's analagous to the true story of the Von Trapp family in the "sound of music". I wasn't that the real Baron Von Trapp himself abhorred Nazism, He was as right wing as they come. It was just that he saw Austrians as being superior to germans and couldn't abide being ruled by an inferior nation.

Though it should perhaps be pointed out, (as you are desperately willing me to do so that you can call it nonsense), that just as some boers saw the Brits as the lesser of two evils, so there were some who believed the opposite.

Hence there were plenty of boers who were willing and ready to support the germans for that reason in the event that such an opportunity might arise.

---

07 Mar 07 - 04:21 PM (#1989864)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

Indeed there are, Kendall. But that's not what I said. What I said is that there are others in the UK who do NOT differentiate between the American government and American people. And who will thoughtlessly have a go at Americans and American culture - even in the presence of an American - because somehow our govenment's transgressions make that acceptable.

I don't agree. That's why Grasse's diatribe this morning made me giggle - it was a bit of table-turning that I found rather amusing.

---

07 Mar 07 - 04:30 PM (#1989878)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

Ok, but I've never had that experience. All of the Brits I know are mudcatters, and therefore higher on the IQ scale than the average citizen.

---

07 Mar 07 - 04:54 PM (#1989906)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

Kendall

Your faith in the open mindedness of the average brit is to be applauded, but don't forget that every nation has it's equivalents and there are those here with the same mentality as those who voted for bush in the USA ( ... ie none at all ... ).

Of those, there is a subsection who "hate" America. It is a surprisingly large proportion of the population.
There are of course degrees of "hatred" just as there are degrees of what you might be prepared to tolerate from people in conversation.

The stereotype of the American tourist being mugged in the toilets of a pub in the film "trainspotting" is an exaggeration of how people are, but situations like ruth describes aren't uncommon.

The worst culprits are the "right on's" who spout jingoistic crap and call it liberal and open minded. The asssumption is that if you abhor everything american that therefore you represent everything "right on", like tolerance, respect, understanding, political and cultural intelligence and sensitivity.

These lazy "liberals" are happy and confident that their left wing trendy stance is fully and adequately supported by the proclamation that they "hate america".

However, interrogate people like this for over thirty seconds (ideally by appealing to their better nature) and they recoil and fall over themselves to explain what they "really meant" - "no offence mate - I didn't mean you" etc.

But again, there are degrees.

I used to live in a moslem Ghetto, and frequented a pub where those with lapsed faith would drown their sorrows from time to time. I overheard and took part in various arguments/discussions - and passionate at that - in which "Americans" were slated for their arrogance etc.

But when the day came that a loud spoken American did turn up in there, and please note he probably remains the only one to this day, the same people who slated him were gathered around like eager school kids, bright eyed with curiosity and questions, bursting to hear his perspective.

As the drink flowed the discussion did become more passionate and many people would have been intimidated by it, but to his credit (or was it his naivety - actually a bit of both I think) He held his ground and acquitted himself well.

I think there is anger with ordinary "Americans" in the world. The American president has influence in many countries other than his own, yet he was not chosen democratically by those other countries to have such influence.

The rest of the world relies on Americans to make the right choice of President therefore lest we all suffer the consequences.

We look at internal American cultural and political problems, we look at The current administration and we shake our heads and hope that somebody intelligent will do or say something that isn't reflective of trends that we fear may be dominating US politics.

We see a meat head presiding over a nation of meat heads, where intelligence is fringe and intellectuals are outcast. (sounds like Cambodia in the 70's or China in the 60's when I Put it like that)

Anyway, ... it's tricky ...

---

07 Mar 07 - 05:14 PM (#1989923)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

'The worst culprits are the "right on's" who spout jingoistic crap and call it liberal and open minded. The asssumption is that if you abhor everything american that therefore you represent everything "right on", like tolerance, respect, understanding, political and cultural intelligence and sensitivity.

These lazy "liberals" are happy and confident that their left wing trendy stance is fully and adequately supported by the proclamation that they "hate america".'

Spot on, lox. And I speak, as I said earlier, as someone of very left-wing persuasions myself.

At the university where I used to teach we had an event as part of a festival that I ran a couple of years ago. Hosted by Ziauddin Sardar, it was called something like "Why Everyone Hates America". I expected an enlightened discussion about America's transgressons, which still managed to perhaps look at some of the wider issues around cultural imperialism (and let's not forget that cultural imperialism was Britain's stock in trade for centuries).

But instead, Dr Sardar presented a series of scenarios outlining why America was shit, and all the horrible things it had been responsible for in recent decades, to the delight of the "right on" liberal crowd. In the discussion that followed came statements like, "Well, Americans don't know anything about other cultures because they never travel," to murmurs of approval from the assembled throng. I found myself getting progressively angrier - for one thing, I'd cheerfully compare my nearly-full passport with that of the average British person. Bet I'd win.

In the end, it was a smug, self-congratulatory hour of people absolutely convinced of their own righteousness, who couldn't make the pretty basic conceptual leap of comparing their own country's chequered past with the transgressions of contemporary America...and they were certainly not making a distinction between the American government and its people.

I made reference to the climate here after 9/11 - I'm telling you, it wasn't nice. On the day itself, I became aware that my colleagues were watching the unfoldng events in the staff room on television. I was on my way there, and our Operations manager headed me off and took me somewhere else saying, "You don't want to go in there." See, even as the towers were falling, there were people I worked with sitting in that room, watching thousands of innocent people suffering and dying, saying, "They had it coming." In the subsequent weeks I heard that sentiment more than once - usually before people realised I was American.

I'm not saying that every British person feels this way. But some certainly do.

---

07 Mar 07 - 06:00 PM (#1989973)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Grab

Ruth, "they had it coming" is definitely wrong.

But after 60 years of US overseas intervention and manipulation through the Cold War and beyond, I think the general feeling from non-US people is that it's amazing that it took so long for the first terrorist attack on the mainland US. No-one hates Americans the people, but they may well hate America the political entity - and they may well be justified in that hate (in the same way the Irish certainly were justified in their hate of the British government in the 70s and 80s.) Not that any of this justifies the killing of innocent people in any way, but it explains attitudes to it. It's all too easy for "I hate your government" to be equated to "I hate your country". And then "I hate you" even though they've never met you.

The point is that there didn't seem to be any awareness from the US government that what they were doing abroad could have any effect back home - it was all a game somewhere else in the world, and they couldn't envisage the fight being taken to them. Most of Europe learnt that the hard way in the 60s and 70s, but the US government didn't learn.

And then they had to face the question of "why did it happen, and how can we stop it?". Perhaps by not buggering up every country they touch, and trying to restore people's faith in your government's good nature? Nah - let's send in the troops to make an example of someone Muslim, and crack down on civil liberties. So they've *still* not learnt the lesson.

That's where I hope the American people like you can make themselves heard. Whilst the civil service and the CIA and all the other unelected lot keep on keeping on, I truly hope that the American people will elect people who'll turn it around. They missed one chance, but the recent Congress looks like things might have turned the corner.

Graham.

---

07 Mar 07 - 06:08 PM (#1989988)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

Mate, you're preaching to the converted and that's rather my point. I know what my country's done wrong. But when it comes to Britain, it's a case of pots and kettles.

Criticism is fine - in fact it's vitally important. But there is a smug, patronising sector of the liberal left in the UK who love a bit of American-bashing. Maybe it comes back to that whole thing about British guilt - they love it that the world has a villain that's seeingly worse than the Britsh Empire was.

---

07 Mar 07 - 06:18 PM (#1989998)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself

Naw - it's pure jealousy.

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07 Mar 07 - 06:22 PM (#1990002)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Peace

"Grasse's hand or to punch him on the nose?"

Interesting turn of phrase, that. In North America I have always heard it as 'punch him in the nose'. Sorry for the thread drift. Rule Britannia! Carry on, chaps.

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07 Mar 07 - 07:39 PM (#1990055)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Georgiansilver

Great Britain brought civilisation to many parts of the world in the name of Christianity......where however is the Christianity now?

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07 Mar 07 - 07:49 PM (#1990067)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Lox

"... on the nose ... "

usually to do with gambling on horses - eg "A fiver on the nose" - meaning a five pound bet for a win.

(a fiver being a banknote - otherwise known as a lady godiva)

"A fiver IN the nose" generally has more to do with venezuelan and colombian exports.

Though usually it would be unlikely to be a fiver as that would undermine the associated image of decadent excess.

A pony is slang for £25

Hence the possible confusion caused at a horse race when a young cockney announces he'll bet "a pony on the nose" to his bookmaker of choice.

For other similar nonsense click here

---

07 Mar 07 - 07:53 PM (#1990077)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Roughyed

The Russians beat Nazi Germany and the second front was opened up as a resuit of the Yalta negotiations which split up Europe between the Superpowers. Probably a lousy bit of negotiation from Uncle Joe as he had Germany on the run from 1943. But then if he had taken a sensible positin in 1930-4 Hitler would never have taken power in the first place.

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07 Mar 07 - 07:54 PM (#1990079)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Lox

correction - "I'll have a pony on the nose mate"

GS

Christianity was exported and thats where it stayed. We've got none left.

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07 Mar 07 - 07:56 PM (#1990082)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

No country has a monopoly on stupid.

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07 Mar 07 - 09:04 PM (#1990122)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Bardan

I think the anti-americanism stems in part from the american things that have exported well, eg. McDonald's, coke, MTV. At the end of the day, if the american things people come into contact with on a day to day business are exploitative multi-nationals, greasy food, bush, gangsta rap, jackass etc, they're not going to have a great opinion of american culture etc. Whether these things would be a true representation of American culture is another question and not one I'm going to answer. All I'll say is the Americans I've met have been great but I met most of them in Europe. I assume that like anywhere else its got its share of bad people and good people. It's a big enough and diverse enough country that generalisations would be pretty useless I would have thought.

On the evil empire thing, Britain did do some pretty horrendous stuff, but I tend to the opinion that people in general can be quite nasty given the oportunity. Eg. a lot of tribes in Africa were only too happy to hand their enemies over to slavers. Doesn't make the slave trade any better mind, just proves that it wasn't just the British or the whites or the christians who behaved horribly. Empires tend to be built on war and a sense of superiority, neither of which are very good for the people being conquered. Having said that there must have been technological benefits and probably political, legal etc ones as well.

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07 Mar 07 - 09:27 PM (#1990140)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself

"I think the anti-americanism stems in part from the american things that have exported well, eg. McDonald's, coke, MTV."

Hmmm, reminds me of the Yogi Bera line: "Nobody goes there anymore - it's too crowded." I wonder WHY those american things have exported so well? Is it possible that they are being supported by a great many Brits with their pounds and/or euros?

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07 Mar 07 - 09:50 PM (#1990151)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Bardan

Obviously they're being consumed. Thing is though, things like McDonald's tend to be guilty secrets with a lot of people. Also, a lot of people might dissaprove of them for the very reason that they are being supported instead of local traditional equivalents. At the end of the day, people rarely stick to one level of 'culture' or 'refinement' or whatever. I have been known to eat fancy food and drink nice wine, single malt etc. Doesn't mean I don't sometimes just go 'sod it. I can't be bothered.' or 'don't have the money' and just go for a kebab and a pint. If I was asked which was better, I probably wouldn't opt for the kebab.

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08 Mar 07 - 03:32 AM (#1990245)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

I was just thinking...imagine that things had been different and it had been Britain that was the superpower of the 20th century. Given its previous track record of cultural imperalism, I think we can assume that UK corporations would have exported cheap, portable, easily consumable aspects of British culture just as aggresively as America has done, and that the rest of the world would be complaining today about the threat that Anglicisation posed to global diversity.

So, as a bit of fun, what do you think those cultural signifiers would be? What would replace McDonalds, Coke and MTV?

Irn Bru, Marmite and Eastenders...?

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08 Mar 07 - 03:48 AM (#1990250)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Keith A of Hertford

Harry Ramsdon's fish and chips on the fast food front.
Tizer, obviously for the carbonated drink.
Sigh.
The world would be so content that war would be history.

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08 Mar 07 - 04:18 AM (#1990265)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

There was a chain of fish and chip shops in America, very briefly, when i was a kid. Arthur Treacher's Original Fish and Chips. Anyone else remember this?

I think this English attempt at world domination through fried food failed within a couple of years - but my family loved it. For no discernable reason they served hush puppies, which were not unfashionable brown brogues but rather a southern American corn fritter. Very nice they were, too...

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08 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM (#1990289)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Stu

I have to quibble with the use of the word 'liberal' to describe the left-wing with regards to British politics.

The American definition of liberalism, which basically means anybody opposed to the right-wing (it almost seems to be a term of abuse), invariably the Republicans (conservatives).

In British (and European) politics with their multi-party systems liberalism is more distinct, and often encompasses some sort of social democracy. It's not allied with socialism (although in my opionion it share many of it's values) but has had an identity of it's own since it's inception.

I would just stick to calling the left-wing of British politics just that - it's a broad church and has always been a vital and colourful part of out political landscape. Best not to try and dumb it down to the level of the US's rather uninspiring two-party capitalist system.

It also has sod-all to do with the current government who are not so much socialists but the bastard offspring of the shavings from Thatcher's dangleberries. In my opinion.

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08 Mar 07 - 05:50 AM (#1990302)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

The idiot should be burned at the stake, after serving time down t'pit and being interned in a slum concentration camp

Apparently this was taken seriously because I omitted the smiley at the end - my fault. I'd just like to clarify the above was not a serious suggestion.

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08 Mar 07 - 08:08 AM (#1990378)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Bunnahabhain

Well if Britain had had remained the Dominant power in the World up until now, there would be endless chains of overpriced tea bars marching across the USA, and beer wouldn't be as cold, and hopefully not as tasteless as alot of the mass produced stuff...

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08 Mar 07 - 09:45 AM (#1990454)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Teribus

Fish and Chips - English?

Sorry they were an Italian introduction to the UK like the Ice Cream Parlour and from around the same time.

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08 Mar 07 - 09:52 AM (#1990462)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

Do the Italians claim to have invented chips? The French seem to have a claim too, judging by the number of American restaurants offering "French Fries".

There's only one way to find out - France and Italy should declare war on one another, and the winner will be allowed to claim chips as their national potato dish.

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08 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM (#1990473)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

Actually, "chips" were developed in Belgium.

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08 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM (#1990478)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

Maybe then there should be a knockout competition between all nations who claim to have invented chips.

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08 Mar 07 - 10:11 AM (#1990480)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: The Walrus

stigweard,

"...It also has sod-all to do with the current government who are not so much socialists but the bastard offspring of the shavings from Thatcher's dangleberries. In my opinion... "

Don't you yhink thet your definition is rather an insult to the bastard offspring of the shavings from Thatcher's dangleberries?

W

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08 Mar 07 - 10:15 AM (#1990486)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: The Walrus

Teribus,

"...Fish and Chips - English?

Sorry they were an Italian introduction to the UK like the Ice Cream Parlour and from around the same time..."

That's fair enough! Wasn't it last year (or the year before) that it was discovered that the earliest receipe for Lasagne was English?

W

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08 Mar 07 - 10:24 AM (#1990491)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dave the Gnome

The Belgians may have invented chips but we cooked them in far too much grease, covered then in salt and vinegar and served them up in newsprint...

:D

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08 Mar 07 - 10:57 AM (#1990522)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

Don't you yhink thet your definition is rather an insult to the bastard offspring of the shavings from Thatcher's dangleberries?

LOL - you beat me to it W.

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08 Mar 07 - 11:32 AM (#1990547)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Amos

Definitions of liberal on the Web:

broad: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"

having political or social views favoring reform and progress
tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition

a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties

big: given or giving freely; "was a big tipper"; "the bounteous goodness of God"; "bountiful compliments"; "a freehanded host"; "a handsome allowance"; "Saturday's child is loving and giving"; "a liberal backer of the arts"; "a munificent gift"; "her fond and openhanded grandfather"

a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets

(Just in case there is any confusion about what the word means. See also this thread on the origins of liberal thought.)

A

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08 Mar 07 - 11:36 AM (#1990554)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: beardedbruce

Amos,

"tolerant of his opponent's opinions"



Please don't make me laugh. Or will you state that the people here are NOT "liberal"?

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08 Mar 07 - 12:33 PM (#1990609)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

Bearded Bruce

ROFL

Yeah, at least a room full of fascists can be relied upon to agree with each other.

---

08 Mar 07 - 12:42 PM (#1990617)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall

To disagree with another's opinion is not intolerent. Trying to shut them up is.

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08 Mar 07 - 12:43 PM (#1990620)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: beardedbruce

kendall

"To disagree with another's opinion is not intolerent. Trying to shut them up is. "


Absolute agreement.

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08 Mar 07 - 01:15 PM (#1990647)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse

Old news. He reckons England owes the whole world money; get your share at
http://britishreparations.org/index.php

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08 Mar 07 - 01:18 PM (#1990651)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST

I posted a comment which seems to have disappeared..it was that this thread is full of bad history.It drives me mad when people confuse history and opinion. Many of you need to study a bit more history before you go off on these silly rants.

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08 Mar 07 - 01:18 PM (#1990652)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Little Hawk

It's a tricky business deciding where the vehemence of anyone's strongly-held opinions crosses over into what could be termed "intolerance"....

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08 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM (#1990745)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Penny S.

I thought we had just finished paying the US back. Is that why he's worried?

Penny

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08 Mar 07 - 03:15 PM (#1990749)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Penny S.

Just thought of another turned round response. If it hadn't been for the Empire, the United Sates would have been speaking German.

Probably with their own spelling for the Conservapedia.

Penny

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08 Mar 07 - 03:22 PM (#1990752)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Paul from Hull

*G* Penny S.

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08 Mar 07 - 03:23 PM (#1990754)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: DMcG

I was struck that either Steven, or his reviewers, or both, seem as confused as the rest of us between England and Britain. Play.Com, for example, thinks his book is "101 Way Britain ..." whereas Amazon thinks it is "101 Ways England ..."

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08 Mar 07 - 03:58 PM (#1990791)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox

"kendall

"To disagree with another's opinion is not intolerent. Trying to shut them up is. "


Absolute agreement."

Me too.

I liked the humour of BB's dig at mudcatters.

Though generally I find him hard to tolerate ... 8-P

---

08 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM (#1990823)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Les from Hull

If this guy wants reparations for the evil things that he thinks England (or Great Britain or whatever) has done, does that mean he's going to pay us for the many inventions, creations, innovations that England (or Great Britain or whatever) have given the world? I think that we might be a few quid up!

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08 Mar 07 - 11:25 PM (#1991075)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Bardan

If we're all going to have to start paying reparations for every bad deed attributable to our countries, Mongolia must be seriously worried at the moment.

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09 Mar 07 - 12:29 AM (#1991091)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Little Hawk

And then....there's Liechtenstein. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

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09 Mar 07 - 04:08 AM (#1991165)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Gurney

Another pack of bastards claiming that the modern Briton is responsible for every peccadillo committed by previous residents of that group of islands.

Fair enough. So, by that reasoning, many Americans, Kiwis, Aussies, and Canadians are also descended.

Since the islands were settled by Celts, Saxons, Danes (and other Vikings, particularly Normans) Dutch (who came to work and wouldn't go home again), French (who came because of religious intolerence) and divers other nationalities, then surely these nationalities bear just as much responsibility.

However, since many modern Britons are descended from none of the previous immigrants, why should they pay?

Obviously, before blame can be apportioned, then everyone in the world must be racially assessed, back about, say, 40 generations.
After all, the Poms are noted for their sense of fairness and justice.

Good luck getting that done.

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09 Mar 07 - 04:21 AM (#1991172)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dazbo

Actually, as a descendent of all those English people who were enslaved, disposessed, starved, beaten and ethnically cleansed can I get my share of the dosh too? Just because I live in England I don't see why I shouldn't get my fair share (especially as I've got a car to pay off)

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09 Mar 07 - 05:17 AM (#1991211)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: ard mhacha

Teribus hang out the flags, I agree with you that the Italians introduced the fish and chip dish to the UK, they certainly were the first in my home town in Ireland.

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09 Mar 07 - 05:48 AM (#1991223)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Bunnahabhain

I thought it was the Spanish who introduced fish and chips to Britain, although if this thread keeps going, I'm sure it will actually turn out to have been the Mongolians....

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09 Mar 07 - 06:09 AM (#1991231)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Teribus

As a Scot Ard, good luck to your guys tomorrow. I sincerely hope that they take the Triple Crown, it's a great shame that but for a couple of minutes they would be looking at a Grand Slam.

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09 Mar 07 - 07:23 AM (#1991283)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Penny S.

I thought it was Jewish. so does the Observer.

From the Observer, online.

"In 1860 a Jewish immigrant from Eastern Europe called Joseph Malin opened the first business in London's East End selling fried fish alongside chipped potatoes which, until then, had been found only in the Irish potato shops. In 1968 the National Federation of Fish Fryers even presented a commemorative plaque to Malin's of Bow, recognising their founding role in the chippie business."

Apparently, the fried fish was originally brought by Portuguese Jews expelled from Portugal.

Penny

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09 Mar 07 - 07:31 AM (#1991298)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Teribus

A typo Jenny it was a Jew called Joseph of Milan not Joseph Malin.
;-)

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09 Mar 07 - 07:32 AM (#1991299)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Teribus

Sorry Penny!!

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09 Mar 07 - 07:55 AM (#1991323)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

I thought it was the Spanish who introduced fish and chips to Britain, although if this thread keeps going, I'm sure it will actually turn out to have been the Mongolians....

I gather it was the Mongolians who invented the burger, the pizza and the kebab.

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09 Mar 07 - 08:01 AM (#1991335)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Bardan

I met a guy once who assured me the Americans invented the pizza. I laughed for quite a while.

I presume Hamburgers are from Hamburg originally although they could easily not be I suppose. Sort of thing that different people might think up independantly though isn't it. As for kebabs, turks? Iranians? no idea.

PS. I mentioned Mongolia cos they'd have to make serious reparations after all the conquering and the pyramids of skulls etc. not just randomly, still, who cares at the end of the day?

God this message me sound like a boring pedantic git. I'm not boring damnit!

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09 Mar 07 - 08:10 AM (#1991343)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

I met a guy once who assured me the Americans invented the pizza. I laughed for quite a while

I've certainly heard the claim that the pizza was invented by Italians living in the USA, but I have no way of knowing whether that's true or false.

God this message me sound like a boring pedantic git. I'm not boring damnit!

I have no way of knowing whether that's true or false, either :-)

...I'll get me coat!

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09 Mar 07 - 08:16 AM (#1991350)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: beardedbruce

"Indeed, in a post to It.Hobby.Cucina, the Italian general cooking newsgroup, RoDante da Fano traces pizza's origins from Ancient Egypt to Imperial Rome, where there were a number of different kinds of flat baked breads with a variety of sweet or salty toppings, and goes on to say that the descendents of these proto-pizzas were common throughout the peninsula in the 1700s. In 1835, he continues, Alexandre Dumas noted in his diary that "in Naples pizza is flavored with oil, lard, tallow, cheese, tomato, or anchovies…" Other chroniclers listed other common toppings, also noting that pizza was a cheap food that Neapolitans ate for breakfast or lunch; in the 1870s things stabilized to a degree, when a Neapolitan pizzaiolo created the Margherita, which he named after Italy's beautiful queen, by sprinkling a few fresh basil leaves over a pizza topped with mozzarella and tomato -- red, white and green, the national colors. "

http://italianfood.about.com/od/breadspizza/a/aa042205.htm

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09 Mar 07 - 08:19 AM (#1991359)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Bardan

Marguerita-named after a princess (don't see many of those in america)
red white and green. (Unless made with some rare breed of blue basil...hmmmm, maybe it is American.) I rest my case. (And no doubt get it demolished within seconds, but there you are.)

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09 Mar 07 - 11:26 AM (#1991568)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: folk1e

If I remember my Greek mythology correctly it was them what did the Piza! They were short of crockery and made plates out of dough. After they had finnished all the food they were still hungry so ate the plates (as was foretold). This was the sign to build the city of Rome!
Mine is a peperoni special, ta.

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09 Mar 07 - 11:55 AM (#1991587)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer

My uncle Nick, from Naples, assured me that it was where pizza came from. But he said it was flat breasd with oil, salt, and oregano - not tomatoes or cheese. He always reckoned that Americans had "spoiled" it with these additions.

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09 Mar 07 - 12:01 PM (#1991592)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Penny S.

All the sources seem to have the same typo....

Penny

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09 Mar 07 - 12:18 PM (#1991607)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself

How typocal.

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09 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM (#1991609)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Stu

". . . chipped potatoes which, until then, had been found only in the Irish potato shops . . ."

Crikey. So the Irish invented chipped potatoes and whoever compsed 'The Kid on The Mountain' comes from there.

Now that's what I call a contribution to civilisation.

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09 Mar 07 - 05:51 PM (#1991980)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Captain Ginger

Certainly nearly every decent chippie I've come across in Scotland has an Italian name - and Capaldi seems to rank among the best of them.
And, it has to be said, the deep-fried creme egg I was persauded to try (don't ask - it was vile) was from a Turkish-run kebab shop masquerading as a pukkah McEyetalian chippie.
As for the rest of the thread (having stumbled upon it somewhat late after being away in a splendid place far beyond the reach of this internet malarkey) - is there anything one should worry about other than the usual suspects?
Terry - I trust your judgement on this - should one saddle the horses?
Though, to be honest, is there anything more important to Englishness that decent chips?

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10 Mar 07 - 02:11 AM (#1992299)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Gurney

As it was rumoured to be the Poms who introduced the spud, along with many other vegetables, into Europe, it seems unlikely to be anyone else who first cooked them, in any fashion. Although it could have been the Spanish, or Portugese.

Of course, this discounts the efforts of the native South Americans, who grew the things since day one.

Further, to cook a chip properly, it has to be done in animal fat, and that lets most of the Europeans out.

To add further confusion, I live in a country that calls both chips and crisps 'chips.'

To be the first to be recorded as opening a chip shop does not mean that you are the one who invented or introduced fish-n-chips, any more than being the introducer of pasta means that you invented that. (Marco Polo, I understand.)

"Listen, Sir Walter, you stand there, smoking that potato...." Michael Flanders.

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10 Mar 07 - 12:24 PM (#1992621)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: bubblyrat

It is no good blaming England for machine -guns ( although they probably invented the name, which was used to officially describe the twin-barrelled,lever-operated Gardner-gun when it entered British army service )------ Doctor Richard Jordan Gatling must take the credit for that, at least as far as the first mechanical,or hand operated ( cranked ) machine-gun was concerned.Later on,of course, another American, Hiram Maxim, gave the world the first practical,automatic-firing,belt-fed machine gun. Then followed ever more American " machine " or "sub-machine " gun inventors-----Benjamin Berkeley Hotchkiss, whose guns were widely used and copied in France and Japan. Isaac Newton Lewis, whose guns were used by all the allies in WW1 EXCEPT the Americans !! ( Because US Chief of Ordnance ,General Tozier, didn"t like Lewis !! ) Brigadier -General Thompson, and his famous "Trench Broom " Tommy -Gun , John Moses Browning, and his also famous .30 calibre "potato-digger" and the immortal BAR squad light -machine gun-----the list goes on !! So ,please, do NOT blame the Brits, or the English, for the Machine-Gun , OK ????   This is all out of my head, not off the internet, so sorry for any mistakes !! ( like I can"t remember Thompson"s first name ! )

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10 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM (#1992892)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: ard mhacha

Teribus we stole the Triple Crown to-day,it must have been the soggy chips the Irish team had before the game,the All-BLacks will have no bother in the World Cup.

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11 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM (#1993363)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: folk1e

Allas and Allack! It was us! We didn't mean any harm to you. Our "chippy's" were meant to be harmless. How did we know the problems they would cause?    But wait a second, with all this global warming we have the answer "Chippy Biofuel"! Call in and get your fish chips and 40 litres of chip fat converted to green diesel! Smell? what smell?

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11 Mar 07 - 11:23 AM (#1993414)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Big Al Whittle

I can't really see how the Italians would have given us fish and chips. You really do need a cold water sort of fish. You go these med countries and they really haven't got it right.

I think the Irish potato shop sounds a more likely source. Can't be the Scots - they're still cooking Haddock, which I suppose is okay if you're really hungry.

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11 Mar 07 - 06:41 PM (#1993730)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

"I think I have succesfully defended my points that A) The British invented the concentration camp".

No Lox, I don't think you have. What you have proved is that the British invented a new name (even the article you use as authority says only that they were the first to use that name) for a type of incarceration that was mentioned in historical writings as far back as ancient Egypt, Greece, Persia, and Rome.

Apart from the name, concentration of potential enemies in confined areas was nothing new.

Don T.

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12 Mar 07 - 01:58 AM (#1993979)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Gurney

Factory labor (Labour)
From memory:   It was a London clockmaker who is credited with mass-production-line techniques. However, the workers were time-served clockmakers and trade apprentices.
When factories became the norm in the industrial revolution, the owners provided housing for the workers that they needed. These were not at that time 'slums,' but houses for respectable families who would not otherwise have been able to be there, and workers flocked from the farms and workshops to live in them. they were 'tied' houses, and if you lost your job, out you went.
These houses may have become slums later, with factory closures and private ownership, but no-one 'invented' them.


If we consider semi-skilled workers, then possibly the first mass-production was of Springfield rifles, so America can take a bow for that.
This is from memory of a book I read once. I stand to be corrected.

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12 Mar 07 - 07:53 AM (#1994178)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump

Let me get this straight - the suthor blames England, not Britain, for this 'evil empire', right? Does he absolve Scotland and Wales (and Northern Ireland) from any blame?

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12 Mar 07 - 08:42 AM (#1994242)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself

Who cares? Seriously.

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12 Mar 07 - 11:28 AM (#1994420)
Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Big Al Whittle

The English are all beyond contempt.

They invented the smelly fart in a confined space, the out of tune guitar string, and it was English Labrador who made widespread the practice of shitting on footpaths.

To this day if you see an English Labrador shitting on the footpath - they always have a guilty, furtive look about them. They know that they started it.

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