Pete,

I will, once I'm back in UK, put together a set of DOCUMENTED instances where some of your gurus have been shown without doubt to have knowingly lied or to have continued using as if true (moon dust,bombardier beetle, population growth curves etc) "evidence" that they have known to have been thoroughly discredited for years after they've been proved incorrect.

You say that you "doubt" those accusations but have so far shown no inclination to follow them up.

If I take the trouble to point you at proof of dishonesty of such people as Walker, Ham, Hovind, Woodmorappe etc, will you acutally take the trouble to look at the proofs?

I'll give you one taster: Woodmorappe, for example, in his article on home schooling science at: Woodmorappe Home Schooling Article

Quotes Charles Darwin as saying in a letter to Charles Lyell:

"If I were convinced that I required such additions to the theory of natural selection, I would reject it as rubbish . . . I would give nothing for the theory of natural selection, if it requires miraculous additions at any one stage of descent.

In fact, the full context of Darwin's letter for the *first* part of this quote is:

We must under present knowledge assume the creation of one or of a few forms,—in same manner as philosophers assume the existence of a power of attraction, without any explanation. But I entirely reject as in my judgment quite unnecessary any subsequent addition "of new powers, & attributes & forces"; or of any "principle of improvement", except in so far as every character which is naturally selected or preserved is in some way an advantage or improvement, otherwise it would not have been selected.If I were convinced that I required such additions to the theory of natural selection, I would reject it as rubbish. But I have firm faith in it, as I cannot believe that if false it would explain so many whole classes of facts, which if I am in my senses it seems to explain. As far as I understand your remarks & illustrations, you doubt the possibility of gradations of intellectual powers.

And then there's another 3 paragraphs before the second part of Woodmorappe's quote. So the first part of Woody's quote is not related at all to the second part, and when seen in context, is not actually arguing the point that Woody implies he is arguing at all.

This quote-mining by Woody *has* to be dishonest...he's had to selectively omit several sentences around the first part of his quote and then search down through 3 paragraphs to find a "closing" sentence and elide the two together to make it seem as if Darwin is saying something quite different from what he actually is. HOW is this NOT dishonest? You say you "doubt" the accusations but this one is a matter of record.

Also, in the same article, Woodmorappe quotes "Illinois High School teacher Jan Peczkis" as saying: The misconception that evolution works towards a pre-determined goal is held by many high school and college students. This is understandable because evolution is an abstractand generally non-observable phenomenon, and living things do seem well-designed for their environments.

Which is fine....possibly a lot of high school students *might* think this until they've had their misconception corrected by decent teaching.

However, what Woody fails to say anywhere is that he is QUOTING HIMSELF. John Woodmorappe is a pen-name of Jan Peczkis!!!! It's fine to have a pen-name but it's NOT fine to then quote yourself as if quoting someone else without coming clean.

It's also strange that when you look at Peczkis's writings, he appears to write from a viewpoint of an "Old Earth" geology, whereas when he writes as Woodmorappe, he's a Young Earth creationist. There's a link to Woody's biography in the article I linked above, and nowhere there does it mention that the YEC John Woodmorappe is in fact an alter-ego of OEC Jan Peczkis:
Peczkis Biog

This is "smoke and mirrors" all through, and just one example of literally dozens I can give you where your "top" creationist gurus distort, bend and plain lie.

As I said, more later if there's a chance you'll actually check into any of them!