BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 03 - 11:59 PM

To those who disagreed with my ranking of Mel's Hamlet, remember, I did say that it was in my opinion the best that I had seen. Two qualifiers: My opinion, and that I had seen.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Benjamin
Date: 10 May 03 - 11:08 PM

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised to not see Val Kilmer get mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:53 PM

I guess I should have given a reason. Brannaugh's treatments of Shakespeare entirely lack subtlety and nuance (imo), and he's not particularly interested in being faithful to historical periods. I know some people think that's interesting, but I find it hard to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:49 PM

The things Brannaugh does to Shakespeare make my teeth itch.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Sam L
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:45 PM

Huh. I'd put Robert Duvall before many of the names mentioned already. He manages to combine the breathing nuances of method with incredible accuracy, in Tomorrow, for example. If someone mentioned Malkovitch I missed it, but I think he's better than the three in the thread title. Julianne Moore is very good--Uncle Vanya on 42nd street, some others I mention all the time. William Macy is very good, and that heavy-set red-haired fellow whose three names I always forget is unusually gifted and brave.

Have trouble separating the acting/directing/editing questions in film versions of Hamlet. Gibson was quite good in Zefferelli's film, but there were off moments such as his over-played reaction shots with the excellent ghost of his father--was that Jacobi?--anyway the entire treatment of the ghost was good. But such is film--Gibson might have done much better takes, but I felt Zefferelli was trying to make him seem very young there, and it turned into very bad illustrational mugging. Glen Close is very good but makes some weird choices, and laughs off some of her best work.

I prefer Brannaugh's version by far, though the ghost was hokey. I vastly prefer the scripting, the scale of the kingdom, the peculiar intimacy of the relations--it was both bigger and smaller, and unscarred by the Freudian oedipal stuff that was stupid already when Olivier did it. But both were pretty darn good, unlike the more recent one with whatshisname--not Keanu matrix whatshisname, but grunge-dude whatshisname.

Running Man was Marathon Man, if someone wants to look for it. It's sometimes hard to appreciate Olivier's style in film since most of us are more accustomed to a less clinical approach, but in certain monstrous characters the point is moot, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:40 PM

speaking along the shakespeare lines....anthony hopkins was wonderful as titus andronicus in the film version as well as jessica lange as queen of the goths, tamara....and then there was the great angus macfadyen as Lucius...

and then there are stephan rhea...and brendan gleason...both decent actors...

and the lovely emily watson...

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:26 PM

Actually catspaw, in addition to mentioning Alfre Woodard, I also mentioned Denzel, Angela Bassett, Ozzie Davis, Ben Kingsley, and Raul Julia. Actors of color all, who are eminently qualified to be in the great actor category.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:17 PM

Cuba Gooding

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:05 PM

Kinda' a segregated looking listing here folks......outside of James Earl Jones and Alfre Woodard. I think we also might have some consideration for Denzel Washington, Lawrence Fishburne, Danny Glover, Don Cheadle (pretty amazing guy), Whoopee's no slouch BTW, and of course, Sidney Poitier. Also Blair Underwood and Andre Bragher.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 10 May 03 - 06:56 PM

Did anyone mention Kenneth Brannagh in the film version of Henry V? I was impressed by the films transitions, but have always liked Shakespeare and used the film as an introduction to genre for my young daughter. I guess my all-around favorite is Kevin Kline, though as with artists of any ilk, there are many good actors and often some peices stand above others.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:50 PM

Jeez, I just watched Donald Sutherland do an amazing bit in JFK as a dangerous (and apparently fabricated) special ops guy.

Hmmmmm, Mel's Hamlet the best? I haven't seen it, but.........he's been sooo wooden in everything else I've seen him in...but I'll take your word for it Uncle Dave.
Would have been nice to see Gielgud's though.

Carol, James Earl was so fucking powerful as Othello, and you could just tell that he and Plummer were competing with every word.

You know another great stage actor that nobody's ever heard about? I saw Heath Lamberts as Cyrano, and he was this little bald fat guy with a BIT of a fake nose........Just as romantic and tragic a figure as Ferrer. His rival became a big star, but I can't remember his name.

Great actors in bad roles? Burton, Burton, and Burton. Did you see him as the washed up artist playing opposite teen Tatum O'Neil? It was almost impossible to watch. Sad.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 May 03 - 04:21 PM

Mark

You left out Efram Zimbalist Jnr, Ed Byrnes foil in 77 Sunset Strip
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 03:54 PM

Mel Gibson's version is the best on film, is it? I'm sure Keanu Reeves will disappointed to hear that.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 03 - 03:18 PM

Some here have put down Mel, but THE BEST movie of Hamlet I ever saw was by him.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 03:12 PM

I can't BELIEVE you left out Troy Donahue.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:59 PM

Boy, I don't know where you all spend your time. Clearly it isn't watching the truly great ones. What about Elvis, Fabian, Yevette Mimieux, Edd Byrnes and please don't forget Audie Murhpy.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:25 PM

Movie trivia alert--how much was James Earl Jones paid for the Darth Vader voiceover in the first Star Wars film (speaking of sins against thespianism)?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:16 PM

And then there are worst performances by great actors.... (A LONG LIST, headed by Richard Burton for multiple sins against thespianism). yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 03 - 01:27 PM

P.S. Rick, I also saw James Earl Jones do an excellent King Lear on Public Television back in the early 70s. He's definitely one of my favorites.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 03 - 01:23 PM

It doesn't look like anyone has mentioned Liv Ullman. She was quite good in a lot of Ingmar Bergman films, but she was also very good in the movies The Emigrants and The New Land.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:58 PM

I nearly forgot, silly me, Rod Steiger in The Pawnbroker or as the cop in In the heat of the Night [?] I always class him with Donald Pleasance in the "Scary actors" category. Donald Pleasance would have been a great Hannibal Lector.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:28 PM

I much preferred Helena Bonham Carter's performance to Emma Thompson's, in Howard's End. Helena is another one I'd put on my great actor's list.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:13 PM

When it comes to film acting, I'd say the greats are rarely the biggest stars, just like the best films are rarely the biggest box office grossing films.

Sometimes you can see an actor's greatness early on, as was the case with Meryl Streep, IMO.

With others, as I would suggest is the case with James Earl Jones, the promise of greatness early on, is never realized.

Then there are those who become great through a body of work over an extended period of time, including outstanding performances in mediocre and sometimes even bad films.

It is nigh on impossible to rank people on this basis anyway. Even the most talented, gifted actors make bad choices and turn in poor performances, overact here and there, that sort of thing. Some of these people become better known as stars than for their acting ability, which I think is the case with Brad Pitt.

Then there are some of the best actors who have quietly turned in remarkable performances over and over, who are virtually ignored by the industry, like Alfre Woodard, whom I mentioned above. I can't think of a single thing I've seen her in where she didn't shine, or even carry the film.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 May 03 - 11:48 AM

Darn it! Forgot William H Macy. We liked him so much that we've rented his whole catalogue of films over the last year. He refuses to be in bad ones (he says).

One worrying thought though. Just because we really like an actor, does that mean they're a very GOOD actor? Macy is convincing, yes, and appealing (in an everyman sort of way) but Oldman simply blends into what he does so effectively.....might THAT be great acting.

And of course we ARE talking mostly film here.

How about Anthony Quinn in La Strada? Jeez, what a presence...but his dialogue was dubbed into Italian....so, is "presence" great acting? What about Max Von Sydow and Gunnar Bjornstrand in The Seventh Seal? I was 15 when I saw it and was totally devastated when I left the theatre but what the hell did I know about Swedish acting (with subtitles)? Later, I found Von Sydow to be just a colossal bore in English.........but boy, when he was playing chess with Mr Death (who cheated by the way) that was heavy at my age. Hard to go see Jerry Lewis in the Nutty Professor after that!

Oh....and speaking of "presence"...what about Jose Ferrer as Cyrano or Toulouse? Great acting (he won an oscar) or just charisma?

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 11:32 AM

Someone should mention Ben Kingsley, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 May 03 - 11:30 AM

Hard to know what you can mean by "false", but there you go. I think her best work is in the big Hollywood films - Sense and Sensibility, Howards End, Henry V. The Winter Guest was boring and pretentious, and I thought she was all wrong in "Wit".
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 11:01 AM

I think the English actor Tom Wilkinson is a great actor, even though he is usually underrated as 'just a character actor'.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:55 AM

Giok, you must see Emma in an American film she did, I think for HBO, where she plays a lonely university professor diagnosed with cancer. It would blow you away. It was directed by Mike Nichols, and is called 'Wit'.

Also, she was excellent (as was her mother) in a film in which they appeared together called 'The Winter Guest'. It was written and directed by Alan Rickman.

I think her best, smartest work has been done in those small indie films, not the big Hollywood films.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:38 AM

The New Globe Theatre, is a compararively new theatre, and post dates all the actors mentioned so far. THE place to train in the UK is RADA "The Royal Academy of Dramatic Art" Though quite few present day actors came up through stage schools, and through the "Central School of Speech and Drama". These latter two are regarded as upstarts by the stage snobs, and truth to say, most of our really good actors came through RADA. I can't tell you where the incredibly false Emma Thomson studied, but the only good part I ever saw her play was as Kettles [sic] in a great UK TV series called Tutti Frutti, which also starred the wonderful Robbie Coltrane,along with Richard Wilson, and my own favourite Katy Murphy.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:33 AM

Emma never trained as far as I know, she was part of the Cambridge University scene (Arts Theatre) that spawned all kinds of people -- a kind of mutual support system went on between Cambridge, Oxford (less), fringe theatres, and the BBC in London. Hard to overestimate the influence of this little ecosystem over the years. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:31 AM

This is getting interesting. I find myself nodding in agreement at ALMOST every name mentioned. Perhaps these modern times are NOT a wasteland of acting.

Also...quite a few American actors are being mentioned who seem to be able to emote as convincingly as RADA trained Brits.

So how about some TEAMS?

I saw James Earl Jones and Christopher Plummer in Othello (on Broadway no less.....WITH Shwartzenegger in attendance)

Guinness and Mills in Tunes of Glory.....AND.....Guinness and Mifune in Bridge on the River Kwai!!

Now here's one that got bad reviews...lotta people thought it was just campy.......but I remember it as incredible scary and well done. Olivier and Hoffman in Running Man. (dentist anyone?)

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:24 AM

BTW, I thought of another great actor, although some of his best work was done on the NY stage, rather than in films. Raul Julia, especially 'Kiss of the Spider Woman'; 'Presumed Innocent' (in which he showed up Harrison Ford as the exteme acting lightweight that he is), and probably what has become my favorite film performance by him, the role of Tomas Ramirez in the TV movie 'Down Came a Blackbird', which was one of his last films. BTW, Vanessa Redgrave is excellent in the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:06 AM

I'm always curious to find out how and where the actors I consider to be the greats, were educated/trained. I know Meryl Streep and Angela Bassett are both Yale. Kevin Kline is Julliard trained (Robin Williams dropped out of Julliard). While I'm assuming that many of the great British actors trained at places like the Globe, I don't really know as much about their backgrounds. Anyone know where Emma Thompson studied?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:44 AM

I forgot about "Howards End". Anthony and Emma -- Remains of the Day wasn't bad either. COME BACK EMMA!!! (OK OK having babies is good, but COME BACK EMMA) yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:20 AM

I think more men find Mel Gibson sexy than women.

I really can't seriously any list of best movie actors that would have Mel Gibson on it, even if it was the top 1000.

For oldie greats, I'd pick Robert Mitchum WAAAAAY before Cary Grant, who seemed to have played the same role his entire career.

I do think Gary Sinise is good, but I wouldn't put him in the great category.

We are talking great, and not just good, aren't we? There are a lot of good actors around. I'd put people like John Travolta on a list of good actors, but not great. I think if Nick Cage can be convinced not to return to the idiotic action/adventure & syrupy romantic lead cartoon character phase of his career, that he may be on great list. But as it is, the bad choices he has made were bad genre choices. Like, 'Moonstruck' was a great film, and a great role. That angel thing with Meg Ryan was an abomination. That winning the lottery movie (can't remember the name of that one either) with Bridget Fonda and Rosie Perez fell somewhere between the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 03 - 07:57 AM

Actually, I was surprisingly impressed with Mel Gibson's Hamlet, even though I'm not one of the women who find him irristable (I'll take Alan Rickman over Gibson any day). I thought he did a waaaayyyy better job with Hamlet than (*cough*) Kenneth Brannaugh.

I'm definitely with you on John Gielgud, Ralph Richardson, Derek Jacobi, and Alec Guinness.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 May 03 - 07:15 AM

Well maybe if you blew up a film studio you'd feel better.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 May 03 - 05:51 AM

I confess to a preference for Dustin Hoffman, his portrayal of Ratzo in Midnight Cowboy acted John Voigt, no mean actor himself, off the screen. I've seen most of his films but definitely won't ever see Straw Dogs, I loathe violence.
VIOLENCE IS UGLY,IT IS NOT ENTERTAINMENT.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:56 AM

Glad to see that Pacino and DeNiro made the original list. Anybody else see a lot of greatness in Gary Sinise? And has old Spencer Tracy been totally forgotten nowadays? I kinda' like a lot of the work of James Woods myself. I dunno'.........I hate these things anyway.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:31 PM

In addition to those great Brit actors mentioned, I would add Emma Thompson, Steven Rea, and Alan Rickman.

Belmondo! Juliette Binoche.

Other side the pond...

Sissy Spacek, in just about everything she has ever done, but especially with Anne Bancroft, another acting goddess, in 'Night Mother'.

Also, Sissy with Martin Sheen in 'Badlands'.

Denzell (he's pretty, but he can act too).   

Jane Fonda and Vanessa Redgrave in 'Julia' (with beautiful cinematography by Haskell Wexler, and a young ingenue named Meryl Streep).

Kevin Kline & Streep in 'Sophie's Choice'.

Ed Norton and Johnny Depp in everything.

Angela Bassett. Alfre Woodard.

Paul Newman.

Ozzie Davis.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 May 03 - 10:29 PM

Aidan Quinn, Robert Carlyle, and Morgan Freeman all have done exceptionally well, imo, as well as Cicely Tyson.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 03 - 08:19 PM

Jeez Peter you're right! Bugger!

Kim did you ever see Nosferatu with Klaus Kinski? My gawd, Dafoe was scary....but Kinski really WAS a dangerous nutbar, and boy did he do Max Schreck well.

Hmmmm, not convinced about Mel. Still think he's a terrible (and very bankable) actor, but now we're finding out he may not be such a good guy after all.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Kim C
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:23 PM

My favorite actor of all time is Jimmy Stewart. But I think the single most brilliant piece of acting I have ever seen, is Willem Dafoe as the vampire in Shadow of the Vampire.

Mel Gibson has a lot of appeal because he's just an all-around Good Guy. But Burton or O'Toole he ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:52 PM

Daniel Day-Lewis didn't play Chingachcook, he played Hawkeye (the white guy). And he was good too, though I confess I spent the whole movie watching Madeleine Stowe -- whatever happened to her? Whew.



I still think that Jim Carrey might make a good actor, though he would need a real director to beat up on him.

My top 12 list of film performances (a different category):


Laurence Olivier (The Entertainer)

Daniel Day-Lewis (My Left Foot)

Greta Garbo (Camille, Ninotchka)

Cary Grant (everything)

Takashi Shimura (Ikuru and the Seven Samurai, what an actor)

Katharine Hepburn (Long Day's Journey into Night, Philadelphia Story)

Jane Fonda (Klute)

Jimmy Stewart (Vertigo, Rear Window, Destry Rides Again, Philadelphia Story, I could go on)

Buster Keaton (The General and 10 others)

Anthony Hopkins (War and Peace, etc.)

Marlon Brando (On the Waterfront, etc.).

Dustin Hoffmann (The Graduate).

Interesting that 3 of my faves are in the Philadelphia Story.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:29 PM

Cluin-That second list gave me chills. That anyone living could rate Schwarzenegger over Martin Sheen is the final proof of the decay of American aesthetics.

For our list, Ian McClellan must be on there, for talent and versatility. Day-Lewis is also incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:28 PM

Jeez, I didn't know the "Poll" was a 'reader's poll'. That answers everything.

Peter, perhaps we should be glad that Adam Sandler and Jim Carrey didn't outrank Chaplin and Keaton.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: GUEST,James
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:50 PM

My List..Guiness, David Niven, Jimmy Stewart, Bette Davis, Judy Dench, Meryl Streep, Audrey Hepburn, Richard Burton, Maggie Smith, Greta Garbo,Katherine Hepburn, Henry Fonda, Stan Laurel, Oliver Hardy (yes, comedy counts)Humphrey Bogart, Gary Cooper, Ingrid Bergman, Jessica Tandy, Christopher Plummer, Paul Newman, Ida Lupino, Montgomery Clift, Harrison Ford,.......wll, I have probably forgotten some of my old faves. Great idea to make our own list

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:33 PM

Sorry, DD Lewis lost me as Chingatchgook.

Oh, by the way....Robin Williams made the list, but Pete Postlethwaite didn't. Did ya see "Sins of the Father"?

Cripes!! before he BECAME George C Scott, do you remember the acting in "The Hustler"? Piper, Paul, and Jackie didn't always have the best material, but they were strong in that.

Any chance of finding the actual list?

Ahhh shit let's make our OWN lists.

Hurt, Redgrave, Guinness, Oldman, Cobb are definitely in MY top twenty.

La Strada (dated, but....) Tunes Of Glory, Grapes of Wrath, The Dresser and 12 Angry Men. That's a darn good start...I could watch any of them again and again.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Cluin
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:29 PM

Let's not forget that this is an online vote "popular" poll. It don't mean dick-all, really. If I'm a big fan of Arnold Swartzenegger and have nothing else to do, I can register several thousand votes for him in a weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Actors, Harrison, Brad, MEL??!!
From: Cluin
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:25 PM

Here's another article with more info on the list. (Can't seem to find the actual whole list though...)

Or, for an even more disappointing top 100 (still in working form) list of actors, check out this one.