Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:33 PM

Hi Richie,
My comment on the use of the word 'antecedent' is only a personal preference really. In its widest sense it simply means something that has gone before but in the context of ballad evolution I prefer to use it as meaning a definite/likely variant of the later ballad, rather than just a motif or plot in common.

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 12:54 PM

Hi,

I finally found the text to "No, No" sung by Mrs. Wrighten at Vauxhall. It's printed as a song in "The Choice Spirit's Chaplet: Or, a Poesy from Parnassus" by George Alexander Stevens, 1771.

[No! No!] SONG 144.

THAT I might not be plagued with the nonsense of men,
I promis'd my mother again and again
To say as she bids me wherever I go,
And to all that they ask, or would haw, tell 'em No.

I really believe I have frighten'd a score:
They'll want to be with me, I warrant no more,
And I own I'm not sorry for serving them so;
Were the same thing to do, I again would say No.

For a shepherd I like, with more courage and art,
Won't let me alone, tho' I bid him depart;
Such questions he puts since I answer him so,
That he makes me mean Yes, tho' my words are still No.

He ask'd, did I hate him, or think him too plain;
(Let me die if he is not a clever young swain,)
If he ventur'd a kiss, if I from him would go,
Then he press'd my young lips, while I blush'd and said No.

He ask'd if my heart to another was gone;
If I'd have him to leave me, or cease to love on;
If I meant my life long to answer him so;
I faulter'd, and sigh'd, and reply'd to him, No.

This morning an end to his courtship he made;
Will Phillis live longer a virgin he said;
If I press you to church, will you scruple to go
In a hearty good-humour I answer'd, No, no.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 12:15 PM

Hi,

Here are four early versions with the "No" response to the suitor's inquiries. The first is given by Bruce Olson from "a manuscript version of about 1635-40, in Bodleian MS Ashmole 38 (a collection of single sheets from various sources bound together), is so badly waterstained that most of it is unreadable. The first of seven verses goes:

Lady why doth love torment you
May not I your grief remove?
Have I nothing will content you
With the sweet delights of Love.
Oh, no, no, alas, no"

I can't find it in the Bodleian. If anyone has a link or more information about this version, please post it here.

* * * *

The second version appears in Pills to Purge Melancholy, commencing in 1700; (III, p. 82, 1719), with a tune, and it goes as follows:

Consent at Last.

Ladys, why doth Love torment you?
Cannot I your Grief remove?
Is there none that can content you
With the sweet delights of Love
O No, no, no, no, no: O, No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Beauty in a perfect Measure,
Hath the Love and wish of all:
Dear, then shall I wait the Pleasure,
That commands my Heart and all:
O No, &c.

If I grieve, and you can ease me,
With you be so fiercely bent,
Having wherewithal to please me,
Must I still be Discontent?
O No, &c.

If I am your faithful Servant,
And my Love does still remain;
Will you think it ill deserved,
To be favour'd for my pain?
O No, &c.

If I should then crave a Favour,
Which your Lips invite me to,
Will you think it ill Behaviour,
Thus to steal a Kiss or two?
O No, &c.

All Amazing Beauty's Wonder,
May I presume your Breast to touch?
Or to feel a little under,
Will you think I do too much?
O No, &c.

Once more fairest, let me try ye [.. only let me love you
Now my wish is fully sped, [For my lippes...]
If all Night, I would lye by ye,
Shall I be refus'd your Bed?
O No, &c.

In this version the suitor has quickly figured out how to have his way even with a "No" answer. The third version is a broadside in the British Library- Roxburghe 2.111 as it was printed for P. Brooksy at the Golden-Ball in Pye-Corner between 1672-84:

The Dumb Lady; Or, NO, no, not I; Ile Answer.
To the Tune of, the Doubtful Virgin, or the new Borey; or Will you be a Man of Fashion.

Underneath a little Mountain
where I us'd my self to walk,
By a pretty pleasant Fountain
there I heard two Lovers talk
Hah! said he my only Jewel,
would you have your Lover dye,
Can you be so fare and cruel
no indeed quoth she not I,

Why my dear my pretty Nancy,
will you then torment my mind?
If poor Willy you can fancy
shew your self to him more kind.
Or if you design my Ruine,
I am willing for to dye
But be short in my undoing
Still she answered no not I.

Why then pray will you torment me
and take pleasure in my smart,
When a kind look will content me
will you frown to break my Heart,
If it be my Nannys Pleasure
on my Sword Ile freely die,
Give the word my only Treasure
Still she answered no not I.

Bid me live and ile endeavour,
every way to gain your Love
If this be to great a Favor
bid me from your eyes remove
Deal with me as with a Creature
as you please shall live or die
Are you Mistress of ill Nature,
Still she answered no not I.

This indeed was more contenting,
than what ere before she gave
Tho it was not full consenting
it encouragd her Flame.
Should I tempt to kiss my fair one
would you say dispair and die,
Say my Love my only dear one
Still she answered no not I.

Then he laid his Arms, about her
she the Posture did Approve,
He resolvd no more to doubt her
and by progress of his Love
Gaind such conquest streight upon her
that at last they swain cry
Will you yield the Fort of Honour
Still she answered no not I.

But their was so little distance
and so yielding a defence
That he found all her resistance
was but only complesence,
Now said he you must surrender
if I force you will cry?
All she said so: to defend her
Was indeed my dear not I.

Hard it was at the first Sally
for to say which side would beat,
Tho poor Willey oft did Rally
he as often did retreat:
But what most deservd my wonder
Willey he for all his Art,
Tho he kept poor Nanny under
was the first desird to part.

Notice that the word "mountain" is used in the opening, where it's usually "hillside." Of the fourth and last version dated 1770s, I've only one stanza. It's titled "No! No! Sung by Mrs. Wrighten, at Vauxhall" (eighteenth-century slip, Harvard College, 25242.3, fol. 132). It begins:

That I might not be plagu'd with the nonsense of men,
I promis'd my mother again and again,
To says [sic] as she bids me wherever I go,
And to all that they ask, I should answer them no.

* * * *

The last version (see additional notes in JAF "No Sir") seems much closer to the modern versions which have a Spanish Captain instead of the mother. Anyone who has the remainder of the first or last versions please post or provide a link,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 11:50 AM

Hi Steve,

I quote Bruce Olson: "Consent at Last" in Scarce Songs 1 on my website. I take it to be the original of "No, John, No/ Spanish Merchant's Daughter".

I understand your point that "No Sir" (posted above) is a modern adaptation of the 'No' response quite different than "Consent at Last.". It's also clear that the "Oh No John" or "No Sir" songs are different songs (Roud 146) that sometimes share the same stanzas as "Madam." That's why "Oh No John" or, "No Sir" songs need to be studied here. Sharp's "Oh No John" has the same first stanza as c. 1760 "The Lovely Creature" (see above).

Another early 1600s broadside "The Dumb Lady; Or, NO, no, not I; Ile Answer" has the same formula or "trick" as you called it. Those versions which are antecedents of the "No" formula or trick but with entirely different texts should be explored.

I'll post four, the first and last are missing the bulk of the stanzas.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 04:31 PM

I wouldn't call them antecedents, Richie. There are plenty of ballads that use the same trick but they needn't be related.

Subject: ADD: No Sir!
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 04:27 PM

Hi,

Here's a print version of "No Sir" from: Songs and Ballads: 96 Songs - Words and Music W.F. Shaw, New York, c. 1881, dated 1882. It's also found in Shaw's "Gems of Minstrel Song" also dated 1882 and later in Delaney's Song book (New York).

Shaw's version with music is "Sung by the leading Minstrels":

NO SIR!
"Spanish Ballad"
Words and Music Arr. by A. M. Wakefield

1. Tell me one thing, tell me truly,
Tell me why you scorn me so?
Tell me why when asked a question,
You will always answer no?

CHORUS: No sir! No sir! No sir! No-- sir!
No sir! No sir! No sir! No.

2. My father was a Spanish merchant
And before he went to sea,
He told me to be sure and answer No!
To all you said to me.
CHORUS

3. If I was walking in the garden,
plucking flow'rs all wet with dew,
Tell me will you be offended,
If I walk and talk with you?
CHORUS

4. If when walking in the garden,
I should ask you to be mine,
and should tell you that I loved you,
would you then my heart decline?
CHORUS

This is a print version of the song also known as "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" or "Spanish Lady" that was sung in the US and UK in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The suitor asks questions expecting a "No" answer so he can win his love even with a "No" response. Several UK traditional versions titled "Oh No John" have a "garter" stanza and are racier (See Sharp's MS of Woolsey). It is not related in particular to "Madam" songs, although some version have mixed texts. The Roud number is 146.

A.M. Wakefield, the arranger was from Kendal, UK. Here's a brief online bio: Mary Wakefield was born in 1853 at the Old House, Kendal, the daughter of a local banker, and lived later at Sedgwick House, near Kendal. From her earliest years, she was a talented singer who, after training with notable London teachers, gave many charity concerts, sang at the Gloucester Festival and was acclaimed by many eminent critics. Barred by the conventions of the day from pursuing a career as a professional singer, she poured her love of music into a desire to make music more available to rural communities. She founded and trained a number of choirs in the villages around Kendal and brought them together for the first time in 1885 to take part in a “Singing Competition” to raise money for Crosscrake Church. The idea took hold and within a few years a large choir could be assembled to sing larger works. Several of the choirs founded by Mary Wakefield still thrive and still support the Festival for which they were created. Mary Wakefield died in 1910 but her name and her Festival live on, still supported by the Wakefield family, along with many other local individuals and organizations, who all value her unique contribution to the musical life of this area."

Several early versions from the 1600s have been given by Bruce Olson as possible antecedents. Any early print versions?

Richie

Subject: ADD: The Lovely Creature
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 01:24 PM

Hi,

I'll start by posting one of the fundamental broadsides. This one, forwarded by Steve Gardham, is from item 11, The Tom Tit Part 1, of 17 songs and this is the 4th song, titled "The Lovely Creature." It is also titles after the first line "Yonder Sits a Lovely Creature." Here is the text:

THE LOVELY CREATURE

Yonder sits a lovely creature,
Who is she? I do not know,
I'll go court her for her features,
Whether her answer be "Ay" or "no."

"Madam, I am come to court you,
If your favor I can gain,
Madam if you kindly use me,
May be I may call again."

Well done," said she, "Thou art a brave fellow,
If your face I'll ne'er see more,
I must and I will have a handsome young fellow,
Altho' it keep me mean and poor.

"Madam I have rings and diamonds,
Madam I have got houses and lands
Madam I've got a world of treasure,
All shall be at your command."

What care I for rings and diamonds?
What care I for houses and lands?
What care I for worlds of treasure?
So I have but a handsome man."

Madam, you talk much of beauty,
Beauty it will fade away,
The prettiest flower that grows in summer,
Will decay and fall away.

First spring cowslips then spring daisies,
First comes night love, then comes day,
First comes an old love then comes a new one,
So we pass the time away.

A number of traditional versions have used a similar title including Butterworth's c. 1907 version with Mrs. Cranstone's text titled "Yonder Stands a Lovely Creature."

Richie

Subject: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 01:15 PM

Hi,

After work on Died for Love, there were several stanzas related to the Died for Love songs that also appeared in Madam I've Come to Court You songs; the Ripest Apple stanza and Wheel of Fortune stanza.

This study will try and get to the bottom of these humorous courting songs. There are many already in the DT and several good threads, however, the origin and relationships between the different versions have not been adequately studied. So this is my attempt.

What I need first are any old print versions, antecedents and broadsides- as well as traditional versions from the 1800s or earlier.

Here are some titles:

"Madam, I Am/Have Come to Court You" (Come a-courtin') NA/UK
"No, Sir" Eddy/Tolman
"O No John" sharp/Somerset
"Ripest Apples" UK
"Twenty Eighteen" Broadwood/UK
"The Spanish Merchant's Daughter" Stoneman
"The Spanish Captain" UK
"Spanish Lady" US/UK
"Yonder Sits a Spanish Lady" UK
"Yonder Sits a Pretty Creature" Williams
"In Yonder Grove" Sharp/ also Baring Gould
"Tarry Trousers" Irish/ Sam Henry
"Wheel of Fortune" Irish/UK
"Dublin City" Irish/UK
"Ettrick Lady" Scottish/UK
"The Quaker's Courtship" New England
"Quaker's Wooing" Barry/New England
"The (Lincolnshire) Handsome Woman" Boston/Roxburge
"Vandy Vandy" Manley from NC
"A Sport Song" Cazden
"Sober Quaker" Dorson/ Eddy
"The Lovely Creature" 1760 Broadside
"Madam, I'm a Darling" Frank Harte/Scotland
"She Always answers No" Peggy Seeger US

These are a few of the main titles. There are two Roud numbers: 146 and 542. The texts are mixed but Roud 142 is for "Spanish Merchant's Daughter"/"Oh No John"/"No Sir" even though the texts are mixed.

I assume "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" was adapted from an archaic "she answers no" version. There are several older versions with different text with the "No" answer. The concept is that the suitor asks questions that will advance his desire to seduce the lady-- even when she answers "no." A number of versions have this theme while others mix the "Madam" stanzas from the 1700s or just use the "Madam" stanzas.

Any old broadsides or print versions from the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s are welcome- then we can get into various versions.

TY

Richie

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-Joe Offer-