Advice Please? - use of offensive words in songs

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: sophocleese
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 04:05 PM

So is dago Spanish or Italian? I always thought of it as Italian. Where does the term come from?

I guess in this song I don't see it as derogatory because Dago Pete appears in the same stanza as Lars the Dane. Is Dane a derogatory term? Is Dago Pete Spanish or Italian? Altering dago to spanish could be a drastic change if Dago Pete was originally Italian.

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 03:41 PM

GUEST,Joe: Oddly enough, St. Louis was where I grew up, before coming to St. Paul. I lived on the fringe of "The Hill" and some of my best friends were Italian. (The ones who didn't go to public school went to St. Aloysius. You're a true South St. Louisan if you know how to pronounce "Aloysius." Want to take a crack at it, Joe?)

Yes, I did call it "dago hill" in my days as a callow youth, but I was also taught that "dago" was an impolite word to use in front of Italians. (My father's term was "Eye-talian.")

On a visit to St. Louis last year, some of my old high school friends took me out for dinner at one of those Italian restaurants, and I mentioned the term "dago hill." He said, "We don't call it that any more; we just call it 'The Hill.'" Certainly all the tourist brochures call it "The Hill," as you can see by using the blue clicky.

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 03:21 PM

I recite a C. Fox Smythe poem that also contains the term "dago" and I substitute the word Spanish for it. I think we need to recognize that there is no dividing line for ethnic slurs. If the "N-word" is a perjorative against blacks then the "D-word" is one against Hispanics. I need to ask my brother in law about this. He is a Mexican National and would have a good opinion.

The other side of the coin is that the old timers didn't neccessarily mean anything derogatory when they used these terms. It was the way to distinguish between people. Of course, there were plenty of people even then who used the words intending to hurt. We can't get around that. Humans are human.

If you are going to use "dago" in a song to be historically accurate then you should be willing to use the other terms as well and stand ready to take the flak. It all boils down to knowing your audience and what they will stand for.

There are those who mourn such cleansing of the old songs and ask where it will end. I understand and believe in their position but also recognize that improving relations between the races will take generations. Erasing these things from the old songs is a small step on that path and a small sacrifice in the overall picture.

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 02:38 PM

I guess you could substitute "Flago" for "Dago," and keep the rhythm of the song, but then you would probably have to come up with a definition for "Flago," of course. :>) DougR

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: paddymac
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM

I think that brother Jim has offered some sage advice. I grew up on the west side of Chicago with many Italian pals. The familiar or affectionate synonym for "Italian" was "Paisan or Paisano". In Italian, I think the word actually means something like "rustic" or "country person". "Dago" was considered to be pejorative. People of Italian ancestry might call each other "Dago", much that same way that blacks often refer to each other as "nigger", or that irishmen may call each other a "Paddy" or a "Mick". I presume other ethinic groups have similar words that can be "familiar or affectionate" when used by a member of the group, but are considered offensive when used by someone outside the group. Seems like the bottom line is simple: there's no point in offending somebody.

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 02:09 PM

Dago is an Italian, Yank is an American, Mick is an Irishman. Not bad, just knicknames. Wop is not a nice term for Italians. We have an area in St. Louis known to one and all as 'Dago Hill' where all the great Italian resturants are. We all love the area and the name. regards Joe

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

When I first came to St. Paul, Minnesota, some 30 years ago, there was something called a "dago sandwich" which was frequently served in old-fashioned cafés. It was a slice of meatloaf topped with red spaghetti sauce on a bun or white bread. The name, the sandwich, and that type of café have all disappeared now, as far as I know.

Certainly "dago" wasn't ALWAYS meant to be derogatory, but it often was, often enough that I think it's a good idea to put the word into permanent retirement.

If I were publishing a book of old songs, along with citations to the original source, I would print the word "dago" but I would add a footnote: "Substitute 'Spanish' [or whatever] in performance."

People who perform in public for purely entertainment purposes are under no obligation to be "historically authentic." In fact, I would argue we have a higher obligation to make our performances conform to contemporary standards.

It might be different if you were working at a historic site and performing a historic reenactment, and you were attempting to teach a lesson about history. In such a situation I would consult with the director of the site and follow his or her advice.

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 12:09 PM

"Dago" is also used as a derogatory term for Italians. However, again, I do not believe it it used in this manner here.

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 11:39 AM

Dago does have some racial overtones and might be considered offensive by Spanish members of your audience. you could substitute "Spanish" and thereby make the song wholesome without losing context.

I do take exception to your use of fore brace as two words however :-)

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: sophocleese
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 09:26 AM

First question is how comfortable are you singing it? If you feel that you're singing an old song and want to keep a semblance of historical accuracy in singing it then there is no need for changes, but you may want to explain things to your audience. I don't think the term Dago is being used as a derogatory epithet in this song, it is an identifying label. I probably wouldn't change anything myself if I sang it.

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 09:13 AM

In a song they are not intended as d

Subject: RE: Help: Advice Please?
From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 06:30 AM

I forgot to put my mane on the above, that's the drawback of having to sign in as a guest. Sorry

Mike.

Subject: Advice Please?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 06:28 AM

There's been a couple of ugly threads recently concerning derogatory terms in songs, well at the risk of incurring the wrath of the Mudcat I'd like to ask your advice about a song that I've sung twice at singarounds, never on stage, not realising that I might be offending someone.
The song is "Lee Fore Brace" and contains the term "Dago" twice. For those who are not familiar with the song the lyrics are below.

LEE FORE BRACE
(Words Cicely Fox-Smith)

There was ten men haulin' on the lee fore brace
In the rain an' the drivin' hail
An' the mile long greybeards chargin' by
An' a thunderin' Cape Horn gale

That dark it was you scarce could see
Your hand before your face
That cold it was our fingers froze
Stiff as they gripped the brace

An' "Christ" said Dan "for a night in port
An' a Dago fiddler's tune
An' just one sniff of the drinks again
In a Callao saloon"

There was ten men haulin' on the lee fore brace
When the big sea broke abroad
Like a stream in spate a foaming flood
Right fore and aft it poured

The ship she staggered and lay still
So deep so dead lay she
You'd think she could not rise again
From such a weight of sea

There was ten men haulin' on the lee fore brace
Seven when she rose at last
The rest was gone to the pitch dark night
An' the sea an' the ice cold blast

An' one o' them was Dago Pete
An' one was Lars the Dane
An' the third was a lad whose like on Earth
I shall not find again

An' I'll heave an' haul an' stand my wheel
An' reef an' furl wi' the rest
For winds an' seas go on the same
When they've took an' drowned the best

An' it ain't no use to curse the Lord
Nor it ain't no sense to moan
For a man must live his life the same
An' keep his grief his own

An' I'll drink my drink an' I'll sing my song
An' nobody'll know but me
A lump o' my heart went down with Dan
That night on the wild Horn sea

So, what do you think? Derogatory or affectionate?
If changes are needed, change to what?

M